Toxic Masculinity as a Class Signifier

bkon3rdgen · 2022-01-18T18:59:54+00:00

To expand on this, theres also a heavily racist slant to unempathetic feminist rhetoric, for this same reason, at least in America. In many environments (particularly the environments that POC grow up in) toxic masculinity is necessary for survival. If someone disrespects you, you gotta escalate things because otherwise youll be seen as an easy target. This is a super unique challenge for young men. Ill actually make a seperate post about this topic bcs its really important.

RockmanXX · 2022-01-18T19:27:42+00:00

he could not afford being soft, non-threatening, feminist, emotional

This can't be stressed enough, "Toxic Masculinity" is cited as a cultural malaise, as a personal ideology that men follow to their own detriment. In reality, sometimes its the only way men can navigate Society.

The men that can afford to be emotional&soft already have their life sorted out, their lives are lax enough that they can express themselves freely but that's not most Men. Some guy accused me of being "insecure" because i'm not comfortable with crying in public. Why are men are not allowed to have emotional shortcomings? Men have to live up to Emotional Standards in both conservative&liberal cultures. Traditionalists demand Men to be stoic&stern and Progressives demand Men to be emotionally extroverted&feminine, instead of letting men be what they want to be.

Anyway, i believe in personal autonomy, especially when it comes to something as personal as Masculinity. Who in the bloody hell are Feminists to tell Men what Masculinity should or shouldn't be?

hottake_toothache · 2022-01-18T14:03:04+00:00

Absolutely true. It is a way of degrading men from lower socioeconomic classes.

Man_of_culture_112 · 2022-01-18T15:50:03+00:00

Feminisms ill defined nature and it being the core of the North American left makes it tougher to focus on class issues. It will help keep the left weak.

rammo123 · 2022-01-18T14:43:01+00:00

When people talk about "toxic masculinity" they mostly refer to all kinds of masculinity, even the kinds that they feel attracted to in a different circumstance. For example, hyper-competitiveness is often mentioned as toxic, but very successful men are highly desired as mates. Toughness and violence is toxic, but a man that can protect you against threats is desirable, even when that requires getting violent. Suppressing emotions is toxic, but being a stable rock that can stay focused and support a family in times of distress is desirable.

VincentPhil · 2022-01-18T12:52:00+00:00

Not that long ago someone posted this article here. It feels relevant to what you wrote.

Algiz56 · 2022-01-18T14:56:40+00:00

First of all, there is no such thing as "toxic masculinity". If you do not agree with me, than catch any "deconstructed progressive male", and ask him to give you definition of "toxic masculinity". Than ask him to give you definition of "non-toxic masculinity". In most times they can not tell one of another.

So.

Definitely lifestyle and class defines how much of a standart male personal traits are required of a person to survive within surrounding.

The harsher surrounding, the more extreme level of traits are successful.

That is pretty much all long ago we'll known thing.

Interesting_Doubt_17 · 2022-01-18T14:40:19+00:00

and in tune with his fluid sexuality (whatever that means)

I think it means realizing that you might be bi/pan as in 'not straight'

adam-l · 2022-01-18T16:39:02+00:00

Quite an accurate insight.

2022-01-18T20:43:13+00:00

When feminists and adjacent groups claim to be in favor of the dissolvement of gender roles they are more often than not lying, to you and to themselves.

Concepts like Toxic Masculinity gives them a cover where they pretend to tear down gender roles, yet what they're in truth doing is having a debate about which gender roles are correct to have (by sheer definition the non-toxic kind of Masculinity is the correct one, to varying degrees (some behavior is incentivised more than others)) and oddly enough they're very similar to traditional form.

Let's take the Gillette Commercial that became a cultural spat a few years back.

What's portrayed as non-toxic masculine behavior? Stopping women from getting harassed by other men, stopping violence between boys, being a protector of the community.

The most basic bitch demands any functioning society has put on their men. It's down right archaic.

I wasn't even the only one to notice: Gillette's Masculinity Ad Is Actually Quite Conservative

... But far from radical, the Gillette commercial is actually deeply traditional, even conservative, in its depiction of masculinity. Rather than an attack on manhood or a radical call to overthrow the patriarchy, the commercial instead celebrates men and affirms long-standing notions of masculinity as honorable and virtuous.

While “toxic masculinity” is in the commercial’s crosshairs, men are not. Instead, they are its heroes. After the ad’s opening scenes, the bulk of the commercial shows men saving the day: breaking up fistfights, defending a woman’s honor, fulfilling their parental duties. If chivalry had a national media campaign, this is what it would look like...

(They are more like conversation-pieces if you'd care to look.)

They're civilizing the male-beast for the betterment of society. Which is why, as you correctly assess, it targets lower class men much more than upper class ones.

Feminists cannot not help, despite their claim of having rid themselves of gendered behavior, to be Shamhat.

And it makes sense since feminism is a women's movement (despite the men in it) and women are social moderators much more than men. They really just like the self image of the rebel.

Think about it, hell; go look for it. When, within their own forums, feminists talk about non-Toxic Masculinity does what they describe not sound awfully similiar to... chivalry? It is not some great paradigm shift in sex relations, or liberation from--It's merely, standard, bartering. What should be rewarded, what should be punished. And the market hasn't changed much, but the marketing has.

SpanishM · 2022-01-18T17:07:54+00:00

When I read about "toxic masculinity" and other bullshit, it always lead me to sociology.

I don't know why, but that field is completely out of control. The way it's actually treated, that's not a science, it's more like astrology, a pseudoscience.

heimdahl81 · 2022-01-18T19:50:57+00:00

I work for a bunch of really rich people and there is an interesting reinforcement of toxic masculinity at that end as well. They are still rich enough to maintain the traditional man as provider, woman as homemaker dynamic. There is also a sort of performative aspect to being considered "high class". Networking is really important at that level, so you have to belong to the right clubs (tennis, yacht, charitable, etc) and be seen at the right social events (opera, orchestra, balls, etc).

A lot of the traditional role enforcement is a byproduct of being a cog in the capitalist machine. The system expects and rewards certain sets of behavior. Even gay men and women conform to these roles. The breadwinner still works long hours, travels the world making deals, and lives attached to their phones. I guess my point is that there is an overlap between the behaviors that reinforce class and those that reinforce gender stereotypes. It looks different at different levels, but at it's core it's all about fitting the mold expected of you.

2022-01-18T20:14:38+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Mirisme · 2022-01-18T13:51:53+00:00

If the only requirement is time, then yes it is possible. Also you have to carefully consider if manliness is an advantage or a propaganda tool to render exploitation acceptable to the exploited. In this regard, being less exposed to exploitation or being higher on the ladder of exploitation can indeed allow for surrendering such belief. As the other poster pointed out, you can view this type of phenomenon as "luxury belief" or view traditional manliness as "exploitative belief".

This type of rhetoric is of course very surface level as it's mainly a critique of the face value. You have to evaluate in context if such belief is valuable in comparison to other belief to really assess their usefulness. Next you'd have to assess whether that context is susceptible to change or not. In that regard, I believe that capitalist exploitation is evitable so manliness is as both a coping mechanism and enabler of exploitation (be it capitalist, feudal etc).

nvkr_ · 2022-01-18T16:42:28+00:00

It is possible, but due to the lack of education in the working class and the rather strong separation between classes in many societies, it’s rather unlikely. In addition, people who are toxic often experienced themselves being in a hostile world, which is, too, more likely for people who are working class.

LettuceBeGrateful · 2022-01-20T06:58:47+00:00

Great post. An awful lot of contemporary feminist thought strikes me as academic pseudo-intellectual naval-gazing. It's so easy to lecture people from their ivory towers, but in the real world men are valued for what they do, not how thoroughly they've checked their privilege.

in tune with his fluid sexuality

Heh, this struck a chord. I was definitely told by a few girls in high school that if I didn't know which men I would sleep with, I wasn't comfortable with my (straight) sexuality. Explain that one.

Langland88 · 2022-01-18T23:59:58+00:00

living a working class life will toughen you up whether you like it or not.

This is very true. I work in manufacturing in the United States. I was working class and I was also poor in high school. My parents could barely afford for my brother and I to participate in Sports in high school. Now as a 33 year old, I'm waking up at 2 AM, going to work at 4 AM and working until 2:30 PM, putting in 10 hour days. I even volunteer my Saturdays if they need the help and I don't complain about it. In fact I'm proud of this and it has made me tough because there are people looking at me being dumbfounded to how I could do such a thing to work the weird hours. But in the end it makes me somewhat tougher in my own way. So yes indeed being working class will toughen you up but that's how you succeed in the end. If academics want to call that toxic, then that's their issue, not mine. All I see is someone who full of themselves.

Beltox2pointO · 2022-01-19T08:51:36+00:00

Can you name a single toxic masculine trait that is required to preform any of the roles you listed at the end of your rant?

Title	Toxic Masculinity as a Class Signifier
Author	AngoPower28
Upvotes	123
Comments	78
Date	January 18, 2022 12:44 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/s6wosz/toxic_masculinity_as_a_class_signifier/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/toxic-masculinity-as-a-class-signifier.1096917 https://theredarchive.com/post/1096917

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