"Society Tells Men That Friendship Is Girly. Men Respond by Not Having Friends."

PowerWisdomCourage · 2013-12-11T18:10:19+00:00

I'm not convinced this isn't another "woman, writing about another woman, who studied a woman, who talked to some men." Seems like they've defined "real" friends as the kind that sit around sharing their problems with one another. I'm beginning to believe women define friendships by sharing bad times, men define friendships by sharing good times.

elebrin · 2013-12-11T18:34:52+00:00

My first impression is "written by a woman who has no concept of how male friendships work. Disregard."

My advice to her is that men are more then willing to have close friends, we just don't talk about it often. You hear women talk all the time about their friends and their relationships... men just have the friendships without the meta discussion. It isn't necessary. I know how it works. My friends know how it works. That's good enough, no need to discuss, and nobody else gets to be privy to that feeling because it is private.

SteelCrossx · 2013-12-11T18:01:33+00:00

“Being a good friend … as well as needing a good friend, is the equivalent of being girly,” Wade writes, so the boys end up opting out.

This is stated as though it is axiomatic and I reject it entirely. It's the assertion the article needs to make sense and it is not, in any way, given support.

2013-12-11T22:17:26+00:00

Except men do share their problems. They just don't go on and on about them at length. They give short summary of what's wrong and then their friends offer them possible solutions, or, if they have none, say the equivalent of 'shit sucks'.

This woman has no idea how male friendship works.

jolly_mcfats · 2013-12-11T20:01:33+00:00

Chalk this heart-squeezing shift up to our limiting ideals of masculinity, which define themselves in opposition to all things feminine.

Yes. This is about misogyny and not at all about the platonic essentialism through which masculinity is understood. It's really amazing to me how /u/yetanothercommenter makes a post on reddit that is a more sophisticated critique of the masculine identity than anything published by supposed experts like Kimmel. This narrative that masculinity is only expressed through aversion to femininity is... just so reductive (and truthy). Warren Farrell was writing about how men are not permitted certain emotional resources (such as needing care or compassion) as a function of the provider role which is enforced by men AND WOMEN in our society 20 years ago, why is it such a novel concept today?

sens2t2vethug · 2013-12-11T18:34:42+00:00

Wow, another feminist writer who knows nothing about men.

What a surprise.

Bartab · 2013-12-11T19:40:38+00:00

Society Tells Men That Friendship Is Girly

This has absolutely never happened to me

I think the situation is is that men tend to have friends, and women tend to have acquaintances that they call friends.

Ma99ie · 2013-12-11T22:25:01+00:00

This is another article, in an ongoing crusade, within the progressive movement (particularly feminists), to blame the concept of societal sex roles for the resultant men's expressions of masculinity. Their goal is to get men to accept a less aggressive type of masculinity, not because it is good for men, but because they think its good for progressives. Michael Kimmel's books; Angry White Men and Guyland, attempt the same thing - villainize "white men" (For some reason he doesn't write about the hyper-masculinity expressed by black men).

These articles are trickling out more and more, trying to emasculate men by attempting to define masculinity through the absurd concept of "masculinities," where even feminine behavior, expressed by men, is somehow masculine. Although through the concept of "masculinities" we are supposed to recognize many behaviors, whether traditionally masculine or not, as expressions of masculinity, these same activists don't recognize as legitimate traditional forms of masculinity, i.e. what they term "hegemonic masculinity". Such an interpretation would help people like Michael Kimmel, and Harry Broad, two men with effeminate intonation and interests. Kimmel writes:

What boys "need"… [are programs] that both honor the actual diversity on boys’ experiences – including those who are shy, like school, and/or who study hard – and interrupt the facile connection that is made between academic disinterest and masculinity.(Kimmel, “Boys and School: A Background Paper on the ‘Boy Crisis,’” 2010, pg. 34.)

What he is saying is that we need programs to honor people like Michael Kimmel.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2013-12-12T01:24:58+00:00

I think if anything it's more like "Society trains men to invest emotionally more heavily into a single person, and that is usually their mother or wife, and that's why men have less robust social networks."

2013-12-11T21:43:17+00:00

Women like this think men don't have friends because we don't display overt, fake signs of our friendship.

Men don't need to post Instagram photos of themselves with their friends, edited with big BFFs and hearts and "friends forever" shit.

Why don't we do that?

We go out for beers. We smoke cigars together. We shoot pool. We watch sports together.

We don't need to fake to ourselves and for others of how strong our friendships are.

That's something women do.

accidental_me · 2013-12-11T20:42:38+00:00

"“Being a good friend … as well as needing a good friend, is the equivalent of being girly,” Wade writes, so the boys end up opting out."

Yeah, sure. Women/girls have a lot of influence on men/boys but that's ridiculous.

Now I'd like to know what really is going on if anything.

I just started reading Lionel Tiger's Men in Groups. Male bonding is deep in our genes. Women don't like it. Perhaps that's going on.

GeorgeOlduvai · 2013-12-12T05:45:07+00:00

And here we have another concern troll woman writing an article purporting to be about men but really making it all about MISOGYNY!!!!

Can they, please, just stop?

Exactly_what_I_think · 2013-12-11T18:31:50+00:00

Yes 100%. Modern society interjects homosexual innuendos into male friendship.

SRSLovesGawker · 2013-12-11T19:31:40+00:00

Do you think the people writing these things have a rubric that has, in bold faced extra sized font:

REMEMBER -- ALL MEN'S PROBLEMS ARE THE FAULT OF MEN

?

circuitology · 2013-12-11T18:48:50+00:00

You know what the cause of this really is, it's not "our limiting ideals of masculinity, which define themselves in opposition to all things feminine", it's hostility towards Male dominated spaces.

Exhibit A, Exhibit B.

I love old fashioned, no nonsense male only barber shops, my dad took to me to one every month growing up, and I always had the same barber, and it was just... nice. Unfortunately those types of operations have started to disappear in recent years. They've been replaced with franchise male salons like Sport Clips. Have you ever had to endure one of those god-awful places?

A traditional barber shop is so neat, so simple, you get a straight to the point, ten minute haircut, it costs $12 and that's all there is to it. At one of these chain salons it's absolutely excruciating on the other hand, they rope you into all these unnecessary frills like shampoos and washes, the haircut takes a half hour, and when all's said and done they charge you $30 plus tip for services you never even wanted to begin with.

But men aren't allowed to just have that little experience to themselves. Men in fact aren't allowed to have really any experiences to themselves... Boys deserve the opprotunity to choose gender segregated schooling? "This argument troubles me." What about the Catholic priesthood? Or the Military? Needless to say such an iconic male-only institution as the college Fraternity is out as well...

The "manosphere" is another example, at it's most basic level these kinds of subreddits and communities exist to circumvent the extinction of Male spaces, of places where men can develop and maintain friendships apart from their relationships and their marriages and all their troubles and daily hardships. Aren't we, right now, in this very sub doing what this article claims it wants men to do? Here men are, trying to talk about their feelings with one another, and women can't keep their noses out of things.

What makes men afraid to share? This article is saying that it's fear of emasculation, the fear of being perceived as weak, or feminine. But perceived as weak by whom exactly? If you guessed women you'd be right, it's not really men who are trying to make one another feel bad, it's the Feminists outside of the community chanting "male tears" that make men feel bad.

johnmarkley · 2013-12-12T01:50:00+00:00

I have never in my entire life been told that friendship is "girly." I've been told that male friendship is gay (which is not remotely the same thing) or that it's immature (since male "maturity" apparently entails making your life outside of work as gynocentric as possible) or that it's for losers, but not that its girly. This seems like another attempt to reframe something that hurts males so that women are somehow the Real Victims once again.

jubbergun · 2013-12-12T06:43:20+00:00

If this were the case, I'd be hearing "I don't get along well with other men" as often as I hear "I don't get along well with other women." I can't think of the last time I heard another man say such as thing. Sadly, I can recall multiple instances of women using the line, including my own girlfriend. If there is a particular gender that is having trouble with same gender friendships, it's women, not men.

Funcuz · 2013-12-11T23:38:05+00:00

What ? Where do they get these ideas ? Do they just manufacture dumb ideas about "society" ? Apparently.

tallwheel · 2013-12-12T01:18:56+00:00

I disagree and agree at the same time. On one hand, she assumes that men's friendships not looking the same as women's means that men don't have friends, which is obviously flawed criteria. On the other, I think to some extent modern society does do a lot to make us fear that we will look gay if we spend too much time with our male friends. In the past, it was more acceptable to express adoration between male friends. Nowadays, guys have to constantly drink beer and do guy things in order to make sure that hanging out with friends doesn't become "gay".

cxj · 2013-12-12T05:34:38+00:00

That's funny, because I'm pretty sure I have a longsleeve shirt from a band called Death Before Dishonor that says "my friends my family would die for me" on the back.

I love my bros and wear it on my sleeve, literally.

Pretty sure we talk about feelings too, but mostly depression and frustration and other bullshit.

CornyHoosier · 2013-12-11T23:01:31+00:00

This is utter bullshit. In fact, I'll be so bold as to say men make for the best of friends. I've seen grown women who have been friends for years get catty and petty as hell with each other.

I've had two arguments in my life with friends. Both ended with us having a beer and letting it go. Women need to learn to let shit go.

mcmur · 2013-12-11T23:04:01+00:00

lmao. I'm pretty sure its a well documented fact that men make better friends than women. In my experience men generally have closer, and more friends.

Seriously, find me one group of girl-friends of 5 or more, that all get along with each other. Seriously try it.

2013-12-12T12:15:41+00:00

It is harder to make friends as a male when your older though. I have some acquaintances I guess I could call friends. But if I had to name a real friend someone I trust, and can reveal weaknesses to, that would be my sister. When I was younger I felt like I had lots of friends but It gets harder as you get older. I had what I thought was two good male friends, but eventually drifted apart and barely hang out do anything any longer, despite attempts from me to do things, hang out. It's mostly, busy sorry. Eventually I gave up, and the calls get more long in between.

hellegion · 2013-12-12T16:20:59+00:00

I have 0 close friends and I do not talk about any problems so i guess this applies to me. i don't really want closeness with anyone though. i don't trust people like that.

humanityisavirus · 2013-12-11T20:34:18+00:00

by Katy Waldman

Didn't read past that.

Frankly I don't think most women really understand how most men make friends.

GeorgeOlduvai · 2013-12-12T08:13:42+00:00

Late to the party but, for those who have no wish to give slate page views: The Full Article

tjmburns · 2013-12-12T05:53:34+00:00

I really do think there is something about this. I have a lot of trouble making close make friends. Girls just aren't the same.

2013-12-13T16:47:06+00:00

To be an adult male is to be alone. This is nothing new.

inc0gn3gr0 · 2013-12-12T08:00:50+00:00

Mainly because there aren't many ways for American men to meet males to make friends with. After the prohibition, women became a permanent part of the speakeasy, which was really the last place you could casually make friend with other men.

When it comes to the concept of male friendship. I think men are actually closer, or actually more willing to protect their friends than girls are. When I was in college, much younger and immature. A friend and I would get stoned and play the "Your friends fat-game". So we would go out and find groups of people and yell "Your friends fat" out the wind. If we did this with a group of girls they would all stop and sort of look at each other, maybe even a bit of pointing. When we came across a group of men. No matter how much larger than normal one of the guys were. We would always get responses like "Fuck you", "Get out the car and so we can whoop your ass" or "He could eat your ass under the table". Much more supportive and protective responses for their friend.

I think most men have close friends, what I feel most men lack is the ability to casually associate with other men outside of work.

Kantbot also touched on this, but barbershops were a great place. I remember my grandfather taking me to one. Just a bunch of men chatting about stuff. It was a good memory for me. I would recommend any guy check to see if they have a local Schvitz. The one in my area is basically "male-only" and is sort of a little secret in my area. Sauna, massage and a steak at the end, I mean you can't have a better day! I believe a lot operate with male-only and female-only days. But it is a good way to listen to old men tell lies and life stories.

Title	"Society Tells Men That Friendship Is Girly. Men Respond by Not Having Friends."
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	148
Comments	106
Date	December 11, 2013 5:34 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1snaii/society_tells_men_that_friendship_is_girly_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/society-tells-men-that-friendship-is-girly-men.1156432 https://theredarchive.com/post/1156432

Comments

REMEMBER -- ALL MEN'S PROBLEMS ARE THE FAULT OF MEN