Pray men never take a day off. 100% of power plant operators, 95.5% of water and liquid waste treatment plant operators, 95.9% of aircraft pilots & flight engineers, 100% of aircraft controllers, 100% of locomotive engineers, 91.9% of computer network engineers ..... are men

[–]Kelvin 46 points47 points48 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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Yeah I wonder why a website listed by the SPLC as a member of a growing misogynist hate movement on the internet ... Included in the list is AVFM and /r/mensrights

Sorry, in your source can you please point out where A Voice for Men was deemed "a member of a growing misogynist hate movement on the Internet"? Or our subreddit, for that matter. SPLC Intelligence Report Editor Mark Potok is on the record as saying:

It's false. We wrote about the subreddit Mens Rights, but we did not list it as a hate group . . .

Do you consider firebombings to be a legitimate form of "activism"?

Mein Kampf is sold on Amazon. Does Amazon support burning Jews? Please explain how that is relevant.

It appears you are attempting to misrepresent men's rights. Worse, you lied in order to do so. I consider this ban-worthy, unless you can back up your statements.

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Stood in firelight, sweltering. Bloodstain on chest like map of violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in night. Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us.

Not really related, I just love that quote.

[–]kragshot 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]shadowbanned6[S] 12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

When MEN are on strike

No electricity, no water, no garbage collection, no computer networks, no trains, no airplanes.

Hope it doesn’t get too hot, or too cold the day men don’t show up for work. Even if you had power, which you don’t, you would be hard-pressed to get anyone in to take a look at your wonky air-conditioner or furnace.

98.4% of heating, air-conditioning and refrigeration mechanics and installers are men.

Oh well. Guess you’ll have to mosey on down to the local café, which has no power either, but what’s logic and consequence anyways? Be careful when you step over all that accumulating garbage! Remember that most EMTs are men, and they’ve taken the day off. Don’t want to get hurt now.

Most garbage collectors are men, too - 93.4%, to be exact.

You’ll need to stop at the ATM first, for a little cash injection.

Oops. Don’t bother.

The machine hasn’t been filled with money today. 81.5% of security guards and gaming surveillance officers are men.

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The 'end of men' is daft clickbait nonsense, as any reasonable person would immediately realise. Do you honestly think anyone imagines we could get by without 50% of the population? Or that anyone would want to? It's silly hyperbolic tripe and absolutely no-one thinks otherwise. It isn't a justification to undermine the role of women in public and domestic life.

Women's issues are constantly downplayed on here, by the way. In fact, threads are often posted that have no connection to men, just to mock a woman who dares mention her own experience with sexism. If a woman mentions being ostracised by male colleagues, it's just over-emotional whining. If a woman complains of being sexually harassed, it's 'criminalisation of male sexuality. If a woman complains about the sexualisation of women in the media, it's their own fault because some women buy Cosmo. Nothing is just listened to or empathised with, just mocked as 'hurt feelz' (a horrible mindset for a ) or paranoid overreaction.

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You'll find that many philosophers and academics of the civil rights era made similar comments about white people, but we understand them as they were meant to be understood - as abstract discussions not literal comments on the world. You clearly have no academic spark in you and are unwilling to discuss anything except in the most basic literal sense, so there is no point discussing intellectual ideas with you because you will only consider them in the crudest way possible.

So feminists can go on about the billions of years men have oppressed women by there mere existence

No. If you think that's all that patriarchy means, you are insulting my intelligence and the intelligence of thousands of scholars who use the term. At least try and dip your toe in complexity and nuance if you're going to have a serious debate.

[–]CosmicKeys 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]NoraCharles91 -7 points-6 points-5 points 12 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

No one said stupid or lazy though

Really? In response to why there are few women are pilots and train engineers:

Those involve actual work.

Women are lazy.

Why do you think we have washing machines, dish washers, vacuum cleaners? It was to stop woman's bitching

Women are whiners.

[women] want to be given a high-paying desk job just for being a woman..

Women are greedy.

Women seem to inherently have less interest and less talent in Math and Engineering.

Women are dumb. (because lack of interest couldn't possibly be the result of social conditioning or institutional bias, but because 'girls can't math')

Just a few of the most disgusting comments, all on one thread - open your eyes, man. Do these people actually expect us to believe they aren't misogynists? You can wish them away, but ugly slurs against women and their supposed inherent flaws are consistently upvoted on here. Not surprising - when your ideology denies that prejudice against women exists and rejects the idea that cultural and social influences might affect women's choices, the only answer you have left is that there must be something wrong with women.

The average post here about an actual men's issue like depression gets far fewer responses than some nonsense tabloid fluff about spermjacking or some dumb cartoon someone saw online about women. That's because most commenters are just looking for a place to splurge some hatred - very few people here actually care about men's issues as something more than a talking point to beat women around the head with. Hence there is no activism besides the ridiculous 'Don't Be That Girl' incident and harassing some SlutWalkers, both of which helped zero men and made the MRM look idiotic. Whenever this is brought up, the same YouTube clips of a feminist protests against MRM speakers on campus are posted, as though this excuses MRAs from ever trying to do anything in the real world again. Go to a place where people actually care about men and boys, like a men's shelter, a sexual assault clinic or a men's charity and you will see what the non-political version of caring looks like.

I'm not saying that /r/feminism is the right place to go if you want to exclusively discuss men's issues, because it isn't, but there are places other than this cesspit where real-world activism is undertaken with a spirit of love and enthusiasm for the work and not malice and resentment of women. If you don't already, I'd suggest volunteering would be a good way to make a difference and meet similarly passionate people - at a men's shelter or a prison or mentoring young men in schools (a friend of mine did this and found it very rewarding). In terms of discussing the roots of social problems, this sub is a sinking ship where every discussion boils down to: 'prejudice and socialisation aren't real (unless they're harming men, in which case they are) so women's so-called issues must be due to their inherent flaws'. I'm sure you can find a more open-minded, less stunted form of discourse.

[+]Downtotes_Plz 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CosmicKeys 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Ah I did a ctrl+f and didn't see those comments. Well, the first one I can't find but the second two yes I agree they are offensive. It does annoy me a little what you've done with the last one though, the statement "women inherently have less interest in maths" is not "no socialization of women against math exists" or "women are dumb". If women were inherently less interested in math compared to men, it wouldn't make them dumb. But yes, I see these things and realize they are problems.

when your ideology denies that prejudice against women exists

Given that most identify as egalitarian and a significant amount as democrat I don't think it's right to say this sub has an ideology. Even more extreme users like TyphonBlue agree women have social issues, but yes the level of resistance to them is extreme because people here are used to them being overblown (i.e. the pay gap). I don't try and wish things away, I try and combat them.

Hence there is no activism

There is though, but mainly the amount of people that care about men as victims of gendered problems is small so it is tough to organize. You mention the Candadian posters and the protest, but ignore CAFE's work to create an entire lecture series raising awareness on men's issues? If you're looking for people who lack activism on men's issues but give plenty of lip service then feminists are far more guilty. Yes, I certainly think MRAs should get out and do more for men.

The average post here about an actual men's issue like depression gets far fewer responses than some nonsense tabloid fluff about spermjacking or some dumb cartoon someone saw online about women. That's because most commenters are just looking for a place to splurge some hatred

Well again I find that a bit of a misrepresentation. Most people like dumb cartoons because dumb cartoons shoot to the top of any reddit. The top posts in /r/feminisms are facebook and tumblr jokes.

To answer the important stuff about how I sometimes see men's issues discussed in MR I'll split them into two types:

Social problems in which men are denied gender. Men are denied gender when it comes to issues like homocide, prison populations, suicide, workplace deaths etc. because we see it as a people problem instead - problems that everyone is already trying to solve, but not for the benefit of men. And because men are denied gender, it makes statements about men being privileged as so incendiary and causes the MRM to spend time highlighting gender disparity and fighting feminism. These are the hardest to get activism other than anti-feminism on, because it relies everyone (including MRAs) to see men as vulnerable as a means of solving issues not immediately associated with men. Also, these problems are seen as ungendered/unchangable - a dangerous job is a dangerous job.
Combating harmful stereotypes about men in comparison to women. i.e. all pedophiles are men, men and boys can't be raped, only men are domestic abusers etc. These are far easier to sell because they are directly related to our view of men.

In terms of discussing the roots of social problems, this sub is a sinking ship where every discussion boils down to: 'prejudice and socialisation aren't real (unless they're harming men, in which case they are) so women's so-called issues must be due to their inherent flaws'. I'm sure you can find a more open-minded, less stunted form of discourse.

Yes that is a very real hypocrisy. And many feminist circles also boil down to "women are always the victim and men's problems are caused by their own privilege". I don't think either is perfect, but only one allows me to voice my opinion. TheGoodMenProject also posts a steady stream of men's issues but it feels so self reflective and full of opinion pieces instead of news or issues that there's nothing to contribute. People here care about laws, courts and social systems. Not so much funding and campaigns unfortunately because of the heavy libertarian influence.

[–]NoraCharles91 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I frequently see you try to combat hatred and ignorance and get ignored, downvoted or decried because saying "well, that isn't entirely fair" or "that said, I think they have a point" doesn't fit in with the dominant narrative here, which is that women's problems are either grossly exaggerated or non-existant (and I agree that the pay gap issue is more complicated than either side makes it seem, but all women's issues are marginalised or ridiculed as pathetic). Example: if someone dares suggest that women might be intimidated out of entering a professional field dominated by men, the general response is "wah, women have to take total responsibility for their actions", "they should toughen up and get over it" or "well, they clearly don't want it enough" whereas making a similar response to a suggestion that boys might be too intimidated to show their emotions by traditional masculine models of behaviour would (rightly) be considered grossly insensitive.

Some threads posted on here aren't actually to do with men at all, they are links to a woman discussing her experiences with sexism and they are posted here to be mocked - how dare a woman try to have an issue. One poster a few weeks back made a thread about being in a minor car collision with a female driver and how he felt a female bystander was unfairly taking her side in the ensuing argument. It made me think that had this been a woman sharing an experience where she felt a man was treating her unfairly, I am close to 100% certain she would have been told by the commentariat that she was paranoid, overreacting or suffering from 'hurt feelz' from not being treated like a princess (which is apparently what we all want and expect). And yet men are treated as though their subjective experience is equal to truth while a woman's remains subjective and free to be reinterpreted 'right'. Not to mention the reliance on conflating feminism with women and women with horrible stereotypes. For instance, saying "feminists want women to be strong and independent but they still want a man to pay for their dates!" when feminists were the first group to say "no, women should pay their share" and were frequently ridiculed for that opinion in the 60s, 70s and 80s. All these little misconceptions and inaccuracies end up building into a completely warped worldview.

Social problems in which men are denied gender. Men are denied gender when it comes to issues like homocide, prison populations, suicide, workplace deaths etc. because we see it as a people problem instead - problems that everyone is already trying to solve, but not for the benefit of men.

Yes, but the flipside of that is men are seen as the human default and women are the exception, which is harmful as well. The average person is assumed to be male - if a major character in a TV series, for instance, is female, their gender always factors into their story somehow, because there has to be a reason why they are female rather than the default male protagonist. Men are the overwhelming 'face' of our culture, from distant history to the present day, which means that 'male' is synonymous with human and the human condition in a way that female is not. This is what I mean when I'm talking about male privilege - not privilege in the sense of 'advantage', but privilege in the sense of the male gender is 'privileged' (ie. chosen first) above the female gender in our cultural narrative. Obviously men's issues are not 'privileges' in the sense of advantages (which isn't what social theorists mean when they use the word anyway, but I think you know that), but men being ignored as a gender does arise from male being the default and female being an aberration. This, weirdly, has led to a situation where the female gender, because of it's deviation from the male assumed norm, gets special examination that the male gender does not. This can be addressed, but to do so means appreciating how we got to this situation in the first place.

Combating harmful stereotypes about men in comparison to women. i.e. all pedophiles are men, men and boys can't be raped, only men are domestic abusers etc.

I agree, but I think the way they go about it here is so wrong it is more detrimental than complete inaction. Take the 'Don't Be That Girl' campaign - that would have been a great opportunity to showcase male rape victims (of both male and female rapists), who were overlooked by the original campaign, but instead they fucked it up by jumping on their favourite phantom menance of false rape accusations (many, many times less likely to affect a man than actually being sexually assaulted) and making a spectacle of themselves. An instance of a good opportunity for serious activism being sacrificed on the altar of 'pet causes' and turned into a joke. The same with CAFE - what they did might need to be done, but it cannot be undertaken by these people and meet with mainstream success. AVFM and this sub are considered hate groups - that is why no moderate group or Western government will fund them, not because people don't care about men's issues. Example: in my country there was recently a media flurry about white working-class boys falling behind in schools, because an apolitical, respected think-tank had observed the trend - the story made a splash. However, if the national anti-immigration, racist, party had tried to campaign on the issue, no-one would have touched the story. The people and groups behind the activism make all the difference to whether they can get mainstream attention, and at this point I think it is almost impossible that this sub and ones like could clear themselves up enough to be listened to by liberal-minded people - they are already too infected with toxic ideas about the average woman, too pig-headedly attached to a dogma that holds that men are the victims in any given situation (and yes, this is a problem in feminist cirlcles too - but feminists are sometimes talking about 'victimhood' in a general, abstract, academic sense of oppression, rather than just taking your own gender's side in every actual real-world situation, which is what I see a lot of here), too riddled by childishness and close-minded resentment dressed up as hard-won cynicism. They are, in short, beyond re-inventing (and not interested in doing so, so far as I can see).

Sorry for the wall of text, I got a little carried away. I feel strongly because I have a tremendous amount of respect for you as a person. In long threads of baseless, ugly, outdated caricatures of women, you are often the only voice of moderation and anything resembling thinking of women as average humans and not a separate species with a set of specific traits. You are right about the Good Men Project's tendency towards navel-gazing but they are largely free of the resentment and toxicity this sub breeds and if combined with engagement in real life volunteer work it could prove fulfilling rather than stunting.

[–]CosmicKeys 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As for your first part, yes I agree with all of that. And as I said, both sides of this binary are not good with empathy.

Absolutely, the men as default is something that I see as very core to gender. This point in particular seems lost on a lot of other people and MRAs, who desperately want gender relations to be symmetrical in all cases. It restricts and "pedastalizes" women, while relegating men to genderless people.

not privilege in the sense of 'advantage', but privilege in the sense of the male gender is 'privileged' (ie. chosen first) above the female gender.

Well here is the issue of male disposability I try to get across. You've highlighted the male hero, and his sexy female counterpart who comes in second, but what's missing in your story is the many faceless male henchmen that the hero will kill. My description is that males is default, and female is elevated, as if it were a literal minority even though they are not.

The important thing to note is that this dynamic is traditional, it is not the work of affirmative action. I feel it's very different from what I would consider a unilaterally oppressive relationship. With race, the heros are white (the default positive), and it's ok to mow down reams of faceless Arabs or Asians (the default negative). Not so long ago it was ok to shoot down Aboriginal Australian's in real life. It has never been ok to portray violence against women. That is the important point I try to get across to feminists in particular about gender dynamics - men are not white, women are not black.

the 'Don't Be That Girl' campaign

I've said before, false rape accusations are not a strong interest of mine. The reasons I would raise them is either from a place where they might actually to help solve actual rape by decreasing noise, or a place where a third party has accused a man of being a rapist based on stereotypes. Unfortunately people here care a lot more about them than other issues.

With that poster, what got lost in the mix (at least until TyphonBlue and GWW were interviewed) was it was supposedly half satirical (i.e. it's wrong to spread messages like these about one gender) and half raising the issues of false accusations. A very poor execution because the satire wasn't realized. MRAs would say that the campaign got national exposure using controversy, and they'd be right, but it doesn't matter. I don't support the poster as it was. In my view you can be hard-lined on men's and boy's issues without being offensive or shocking, as Paul Elam wants activism to be.

Maybe you'll find the newest poster interesting, its... slightly better. Still bad though.

The same with CAFE - what they did might need to be done, but it cannot be undertaken by these people and meet with mainstream success.

Do you mean can't be done in association with AVFM contributors? Well CAFE as an organization has done ok to stay away from that from what I've seen. I entirely agree that the MRM needs a progressive representation to actually get anything done, but the activism is just a catalyst to get support for that progressive face (not that that condones it going awry). Particularly, I don't think that the libertarian side of the MRM by themselves can or will ever make any progress from men, only take things away from women. Many libertarians are simply auto-anti-feminists because feminism is a socialist movement. Christina Hoff Sommers (who very ironically here who identifies as a libertarian feminist instead of progressive MRA...) is one face for boys programs. CAFE in Canada do well, so does Warren Farrell in the media. Or how about Elizabeth Celi in Australia, Australia are making an effort in several places like "Success for Boys" and "Men's Sheds".

Thank you for your kind words they mean a lot. I get brushed off by feminists often but I do internalize everything they say and sometimes change what I do regarding their views. There are still some people who need this sub. Maybe I will walk away at some point, but it's probably not now.

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Providing document proof of women working in the field is enough to refute the claim that no women would want to work the jobs. Which is the claim you made. At this point, you need to provide evidence that correlates your alleged cause with the employment statistics.

Purely from a logical perspective, it makes sense to assume that traditional gender roles substantially impacted the number of women pursuing employment in them. Don't you think that a lifetime of watching men hold these positions and being told that they are a man's job would have an impact on the number of women choosing to enter the field? It has to have some impact, right? How about the still fairly dominant belief that a woman is not a "good mother" if she leaves her children with a sitter while she pursues a professional career? Would you say that these factors couldn't logically have any impact?

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[–]Mitschu 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

In 2010, 18 percent of all patents went to women, compared with 14 percent a decade earlier and just 9 percent 20 years before.

So yes, it's considered "soaring [...] like never before" for women to be getting patents 18% of the time - when the barrier of entry for applying for a patent is just filing a little relevant paperwork.

That sounds exactly like women having opportunities, but no interest to act on them. Unless there's a patriarchiological explanation for why women are seemingly incapable of filling out a typically 2-4 page document and filing it online.

Also, great source. I really love their research methods.

For the study, researchers determined gender by using the name of the applicant.

Terri, Ash, Shannon, Meredith, Lynn, Madison, Jamie, Morgan, Alex, Chris, and a few others approve.

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I have little desire to crush feminism, their mentality is not my own. We should however be moving towards egalitarianism and away from gender specific ideologies such as feminism which has devolved into a hate movement if we are to judge the ideology by it's most common mentalities. Threads of feminism such as internalised feminism are of course fine, sadly feminist ideology does not revolve around women but rather men, the criticism, hatred and demonisation of men.

There is a reason so many women refuse to identify as feminists, oddly they don't like being told they are victims 24/7 nor do they want to be associated with a hate movement. Feminism of course does not like to point out just how many women have strong ethical objections to it because it lets women know they have a choice, far too many women associate with feminism because they believe what they are told about the movement and are unaware of it's actual mentalities.

Still there are feminists like Hoff Sommers who understand what feminism has turned into and they are pushing for strong reform within the movement, sadly feminists like her are such a small minority, especially in terms of publicity I'm not sure if it will gain enough traction to become the mainstream. Realistically feminism needs to be dropped and if we really want men and women to have the same rights and liberties, we should be moving onto egalitarianism. Sadly many women are proud to associate themselves with the term feminism due to it's history, this however will change as the stigma associated with calling yourself a feminist grows and it is indeed growing.

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