~ archived since 2018 ~

[xMODx] Recent Drama, Reporting and Message to those linked here from viral campaigns

puaCurveBall

June 19, 2013

93 upvotes

/r/seduction

Hey guys!

Recently a certain attack got linked on several viral campaigns, and we are seeing many newcomers coming here to attack seddit and its members.

To Members

Do not link to the controversy. This subreddit is about helping people build social skills so they can start sexual relationships, not about drama. Just because it involves the community doesn't mean it has a place here, if it doesn't actively help people.
Please use the "REPORT" button on any attacks or new posts, to flag them for moderation
Please do not engage with the trolls.

If you have any questions or want to discuss policy, here is your place. Please be respectful!

To People linked here

Do not come here to call members names or accuse them of horrible acts that you think they have committed
Please keep an open mind and read some actual content instead of a cherry picked quote.
Feel free to bitch on other sites or subreddits, but any posts here of that nature will get removed and your account banned.

Personally, I am a feminist and I actively coach guys all the time on avoiding rape culture and respecting / giving womens agency in their own sexual choices.

It doesn't matter if I can point out dozens of women who say they respect my views on women / dating more than 99% of guys or my actual views / convictions, I still have tons of people that call me a literal rapist and sexual assaulter, ignoring the fact they can't find a single individual in my history to actually claim this.

In short, these types of attacks do come across as a personal issue, and I would like everyone who comes here with hate in their heart to take a step back, and really ask themselves if they took the time to read enough material to make an informed decision, or are taking choice quotes out of thousands of posts to attack someone unjustly.

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Post Information

Title	[xMODx] Recent Drama, Reporting and Message to those linked here from viral campaigns
Author	puaCurveBall
Upvotes	93
Comments	153
Date	June 19, 2013 10:26 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1goqqa/xmodx_recent_drama_reporting_and_message_to_those/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/xmodx-recent-drama-reporting-and-message-to-those.1354042 https://theredarchive.com/post/1354042

Comments

[–][deleted] 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]patropolis55 16 points17 points18 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]puaCurveBall[S] -6 points-5 points-4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]247throwaway123 33 points34 points35 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It sucks that it all happened like this. Tofu's posts and replies to comments and questions in this sub helped greatly toward me becoming the person I am. I can't believe anyone would take it out of context just to attack him. Some people have too much hate.

I came here after reading The Game. That book made me think of women as games to be played and clocked. I wanted to learn every routine and trick I could to become the best player at this game. I was sorely disappointed when routines were nowhere to be found and everyone was talking about this inner game... BUT! With a bit of searching I found the routines I wanted. I spent a couple of months with them and though it helped me get over my approach anxiety, (the approach anxiety I had always believed did not exist with me) it didn't feel right. Saying lines wasn't what I wanted. I wanted people to like ME. So I came back.

This is where seddit came to fix my life. I returned and soaked everything up like a sponge. I rewired myself with all the inner game stuff on here. I can honestly say it made me a better person. Women aren't games anymore. I FINALLY understand that. And no, I haven't whipped my dick out and put it in her hand. If you actually read the guide, that's for sex. Not pickup. Usually the point of sex is to have your dick out. That isn't what I'm talking about though. This is about Tofu's advice on inner game fixing my issues.(amongst others! Not giving all the credit to him ;P )

I wasn't going to buy the book before, purely because I feel I have gained all I need from seddit. But in light of recent events, I'm definitely buying it. This man put in a lot of hours doing the practical work so people like me could read reports and learn. That's how science works. That's how we get better.

Tofu, if you ever read this. Thank You. And if you have been on seddit for about a year, and at some point asked a question - Thank You too. I have been reading. And lurking. And reading. And becoming the best me. So thank you all.

[+]KipDiddler -14 points-13 points-12 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]shytemptation5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I read through the guide after being exposed to the controversy this morning. I found this subreddit when I joined reddit a little over a year ago and was disgusted by some of the posts I saw, especially things like 247throwaway123 mentioned above with treating women like some kind of game, so I didn't expect to find anything encouraging in that book. When I actually read through it on reddit I realized that it's basically a how-to guide for guys who are too chicken to escalate from a platonic conversation to a sexual one, and then beyond that to actually making a move on a woman.

It isn't a collection of unrelated instructions, it's a step by step set of consecutive moves and this was near the end of it all. The "take their hand and put it on your penis" part is supposed to come after eye contact, conversation, non-sexual touch (arm or back), flirting, getting her number, going out on a date or dates, getting her to meet the guy some place where they can be alone, making out, and fondling. All along the way if a woman doesn't respond well to these things the guy is supposed to back off and take it down a notch until she does seem comfortable. I will admit that I would be happier if it had more emphasis on signs of disinterest and how much backing off a guy should really do when a girl starts to distance herself or expresses displeasure, but the target audience for this is not the kind of guys who move too fast in the first place.

If a woman has let a guy do all those things I mentioned above, up through fondling, then it's not that unreasonable for him to take his penis out and try to get her to play with it. If I let a guy fondle me then I'm generally ready to go ahead and have sex with him, this book isn't telling guys to walk up to a stranger and whip out his penis before even saying a word.

[–]snwborder52 15 points16 points17 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]manustillflops 42 points43 points44 points 13 years ago (56 children) | Copy Link

I am not here with hate in my heart. I am here with what I feel is good sense and compassion. You are making yourself into an apologist for someone who has, in writing, backed the idea of nonconsensual sexual activity and made it quite clear his view is not that women are an equal member of society to be respected, but instead commodities for the purpose of consumption. Beyond that, with this post, you are saying you refuse to discuss the matter, thereby enabling him to continue this campaign he has started. I know nothing of your history, so I cannot and will not attempt to make heads or tails of how you treat women, or people in general. You may have a very good, clean record with you treat women up to this point. However, your defense of his actions is, in no uncertain terms, absolutely in support of and enabling to rape culture and a marked lack of common decency towards half the human population. Ban me if it makes you happy, if it makes you feel like you've fought the good fight. It doesn't bother me to have to avoid this subreddit. Just know that doing so does not determine whose stance is more rational, factual, or helpful.

[–]Moderatorrecyclablebantha 26 points27 points28 points 13 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

[–]manustillflops 9 points10 points11 points 13 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

[–]Moderatorrecyclablebantha 8 points9 points10 points 13 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]mstrkrft- 32 points33 points34 points 13 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

Not /u/manustillflops, but:

Force her to rebuff your advances. [...]

All master seducers are also masters at making women feel comfortable.

If you are decidedly forcing someone to rebuff your advances, you are not making them feel comfortable but exactly the opposite.

Even when a girl rejects your advances, she KNOWS that you desire her. That's hot. It arouses her physically and psychologically.

Holyfuckingshitno. I don't doubt that there are women where it works like that (and that's probably the case when she is actually into the guy doing that) but there are plenty of women who are not aroused by someone invading her personal space, touching her legs or whatever else is described in part 7.

From now on you must ASSUME that she is attracted to you and wants to be ravished.

That's the problem. You are assuming consent where no consent was given.

If at any point a girl wants you to stop, she will let you know.

That is actually not true a lot of the time. There was a study where women were asked how they would react if someone were to harass them. They said they'd intervene and let them know. In the actual experiment, many women didn't. And that wasn't because they didn't feel harassed.

Again, the approach assumes consent where no consent was given. That's just not okay. The approach is not about making women feel comfortable.

[–]manustillflops 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is a very good breakdown of how I feel. Consent cannot be assumed or implied. Consent is expressed explicitly after it has been asked for. My main issue lies in the first couple of quotes you gave. Before editing the post Tofu also seemed to suggest men grab a woman's hand and place it on your penis without asking, but that point has now been plucked from the context of continuing without consent placed in a context where sex is already happening, making the point seem rather benign. My concern is that damage may have already been done in the time it took Tofu to edit his post. It was already met with such praise and I feel a lot of people may be getting the wrong idea. I hope I am not misremembering what the post looked like before the edit. I never took a screengrab or anything, so I can't be sure. Please, if anyone has anything like that that shows this point was maybe more innocent than I am thinking it was, I'd be happy to see it. Still, the issue of implying or forcing consent is very present in his writing and that point is still just as dangerous.

[–]mstrkrft- 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Moderatorrecyclablebantha 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

From now on you must ASSUME that she is attracted to you and wants to be ravished.

That's the problem. You are assuming consent where no consent was given.

While I appreciate the effort in grabbing a quote, which is more than some people have been doing, do you realize that you've pulled a quote that is STILL out of context, right? No one who is so angry at this guide seems to be interested another paragraph that is right next to the one you're quoting:

IMPORTANT NOTE ON RESISTANCE: If at any point a girl wants you to stop, she will let you know. If she says "STOP," or "GET AWAY FROM ME," or shoves you away, you know she is not interested. It happens. Stop escalating immediately and say this line: "No problem. I don't want you to do anything you aren't comfortable with." Memorize that line. It is your go-to when faced with resistance. Say it genuinely, without presumption. All master seducers are also masters at making women feel comfortable. You'll be no different. If a woman isn't comfortable, take a break and try again later. All that matters is that you continue to try to escalate physically until she makes it genuinely clear that it's not happening. She wants to be desired, but the circumstances need to be right. With some experience, you will learn to differentiate the "No, we can't... my parents are in the next room... OMG FUCK ME FUCK ME HARD" from the "SERIOUSLY GET THE FUCK OFF OF ME, YOU CREEP" variety of resistance. Of course if you're really unclear, back off. Better safe than sorry.

Even taking this into account though, I can see where you're coming from. The unfortunate fact of the matter is, we're probably at an impasse. I'll explain more just below......

That is actually not true a lot of the time. There was a study where women were asked how they would react if someone were to harass them. They said they'd intervene and let them know. In the actual experiment, many women didn't. And that wasn't because they didn't feel harassed.

Again, the approach assumes consent where no consent was given. That's just not okay. The approach is not about making women feel comfortable.

Perhaps the most important context is in regards to the audience: that guide was written for incredibly, social, clueless guys. These are guys who could date women and those women would have no idea that they wanted to be more than friends.

That's why there's language about assuming that she is attracted to you. Not because he's advocating assuming of consent, but because these are guys who are accustomed to talking themselves out of believing that they are attractive to women at all. So there is a lot of sub-cultural shorthand here.

I'd be honestly curious to see a citation about this study. I'd really like to take a look at the methodology used during the study and if they were able to duplicate the results in other studies.

[–]mstrkrft- 15 points16 points17 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mstrkrft- 11 points12 points13 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

do you realize that you've pulled a quote that is STILL out of context, right? No one who is so angry at this guide seems to be interested another paragraph that is right next to the one you're quoting [...]

I did quote from the paragraph and adressed that to a certain extent. It still doesn't change the initial assumption of consent and there are a couple of qualifiers and statements in there that I would consider problematic (emphasis is mine):

All that matters is that you continue to try to escalate physically until she makes it genuinely clear that it's not happening

How do you judge if she is genuinely rebuffing you or not? This still gives the man the benefit of the doubt and is something you can use to justify further escalation to yourself.. "she rejected my advances, but I don't think she did it genuinely"

She wants to be desired, but the circumstances need to be right This can be read as "alright, she said no, but that doesn't mean she doesn't want you, it's just that the circumstances aren't right.. try again next time".

With some experience, you will learn to differentiate the "No, we can't... my parents are in the next room... OMG FUCK ME FUCK ME HARD" from the "SERIOUSLY GET THE FUCK OFF OF ME, YOU CREEP" variety of resistance.

Aside from that being a very difficult differentiation in some cases (where I'd argue that it's better to back out and miss out on a opportunity than to harass someone), until you get the experience, the text still implies that the default assumptions is that it's not the latter variety of resistance.

Of course if you're really unclear, back off.

Similar to the above.. "if you aren't really clear, proceed".

In general I think it'd be very good if the whole culture of flirting, dating etc changed and if both genders got more equal roles. Of course I see that it can be difficult as a guy because usually we're expected to do the first move and "be the leader" etc and at the same time that kind of 'i didn't really mean that'-type of resistance is 'expected' of women to a certain extent because they're not supposed to just say 'we're gonna bang!'. I don't like that sort of culture. So instead of playing into that and pushing things and risking pushing too far and hurting someone (even if I didn't actually intend to do so), I'd rather back off. I think there's a Louis CK piece about that.

Perhaps the most important context is in regards to the audience: that guide was written for incredibly, social, clueless guys.

That, to me, is probably the most troubling thing about it. The more socially clueless the target audience is, the more likely it is that they're going to go a step to far as the text tells them to push it until you see a sign of 'genuine' resistance. And if you're socially clueless, you might miss that sign.

In a way I think that the text perpetuates a kind of false confidence. And I think it takes a lot more actual confidence to open yourself up to rejection by asking beforehand. Just pushing it transfers the responsibility to the other person, which, to me, is the opposite of confidence.

[–]Moderatorrecyclablebantha 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Perhaps the most important context is in regards to the audience: that guide was written for incredibly, social, clueless guys.

That, to me, is probably the most troubling thing about it. The more socially clueless the target audience is, the more likely it is that they're going to go a step to far as the text tells them to push it until you see a sign of 'genuine' resistance.

Actually the problem with the target audience is that they are overly timid, so the danger is more that they're going to talk themselves out of it, rather than do anything. The reason why he's using language that comes off extreme to the layman, is because the target audience has to aim for extreme, just to hit "normal".

But that's part of the whole problem. People who've been lurking around Seddit know this. Everyone else seems to think that Seddit is a breeding ground for predators. It's not. It's full of timid nerds who are following the advice of formerly timid nerds who figured out how to be normal. As far as anyone can be.

[–][deleted] 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Moderatorrecyclablebantha 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Actually the problem with the target audience is that they are overly timid, so the danger is more that they're going to talk themselves out of it, rather than do anything. The reason why he's using language that comes off extreme to the layman, is because the target audience has to aim for extreme, just to hit "normal".

Heh. Sure. Aim for rape and you'll hit true love! How could this possibly go wrong?

Did you come here for constructive conversation or to troll?

If you want to insist on distorting what is posted so you can find something to be offended about, then knock yourself out. There will be no pleasing you and no one here is going to try. If you are going to assume mal intent, than this conversation is over and we might as well start calling each other Hitler and get it over with.

[–]2Weird2Live2Rare2Die2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]recyclablebantha0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

All I did is laughingly ~~reduce~~ distort the language of the defense to ~~its simplest~~ terms that are convenient for 2Weird2Live2Rare2Die so she can continue to avoid intellectual honesty.

If the philosophy of ~~PUAs~~ victims is to ~~err on the side of ignoring rather than accepting consent~~ see rape everywhere I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim that 2Weird2Live2Rare2Die is even bothering to pay lip service to constructive conversation or logic.

You don't have to waste your time with me.

Oh, but I find I'm coming to enjoy our lovely time together. Sometimes I like to play chess with a pigeon who insists on shitting all over the board, kicking over the pieces, and claiming victory SO vehemently.

Have a nice day. Hitler.

You had me at hello, Ms. Braun.

p.s. On a more serious note, you may enjoy this rather illuminating video, if you have not already seen it.

p.p.s. Did you delete your so very artful initial reply? Or did you manage to offend the MODs with your dynamic grasp of logic and amazing bedside manner?

[–]RestlessBrowSyndrome1 points 13 years ago* [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]mstrkrft- 9 points10 points11 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I can into job interviews assuming I have the job. This is no different.

It's very much different. Not in the sense that a healthy amount of confidence doesn't help in both scenarios, but in the sense than the nature of a job interview is very different from that of flirting with someone.

A person would have to be pretty inept to have gone that far (getting to physical stuff) without being able to tell that there was no enthusiasm or interest on the woman's part.

But inept people exist and as the text explicitly states: the default assumption is that she's okay with whatever you're doing. That's the main problem. If you get physical with someone, it's your responsibility to make sure whether the other person is okay with it. It's not the other person's responsibility to "rebuff your advances" as that puts a lot of pressure on people and it has been shown that people tend to not do that, even if they are uncomfortable. That alone should be enough to reconsider the default "From now on you must ASSUME that she is attracted to you and wants to be ravished". Things like "she wanted it" are often used to justify rape, that's where the rape culture connection comes in. The idea that women want to be ravished by you unless they explicity tell you otherwise is not a healthy one.

[–]RestlessBrowSyndrome3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The confidence part is the part I and the part you quoted are referring to. The two scenarios are very different, but they are similar in that confidence is key and you are best off having it before you start. And an easy way to do that is to assume success.

The fact that there are idiots in the world is not a reason to remove content. There are many things out there benign and otherwise that the wrong type of people misuse.

As for where responsibility lies, I disagree. In my personal experience, and apparently that of many people on this subreddit, women are attracted to assertiveness. I have actively been told, that if I had to ask the answer was no. I have had far more success and happiness in life as well as more fulfilled partners by slowly and gradually escalating contact (verbal and physical) based on reading and interpreting those I interact with. many people (right or wrong) have this notion that spontaneity is the height of romance, when things are handled like a negotiation that spontaneity is gone.

And actually after typing all of that. I think that's what this disagreement will come down to, a basic disagreement on human interaction and responsibility in those interactions.

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It's very much different. Not in the sense that a healthy amount of confidence doesn't help in both scenarios, but in the sense than the nature of a job interview is very different from that of flirting with someone.

How are they different, exactly? You say they are different, but then you don't say how they're different.

the default assumption is that she's okay with whatever you're doing.

You're confusing assuming attraction with assuming consent. The two are totally different. Assuming attraction allows men to talk to women and escalate sexually in a confident and respectful manner, paying close attention to body language and what a girl is saying to calibrate if their advances are welcome or not. Assuming consent is ignoring what the girl's body and mouth are saying to you, and just having your way with a woman. That's rape, and that's not what we're about.

If you get physical with someone, it's your responsibility to make sure whether the other person is okay with it

This is the calibration I mentioned above. It can be both verbal and nonverbal. Yes, some people are not good at calibrating, some people are inept. That's why TofuTofu included the following in his guide:

IMPORTANT NOTE ON RESISTANCE: If at any point a girl wants you to stop, she will let you know. If she says "STOP," or "GET AWAY FROM ME," or shoves you away, you know she is not interested. It happens. Stop escalating immediately and say this line: "No problem. I don't want you to do anything you aren't comfortable with."

Alright, I'm getting a little worked up, so I'm not even going to address your other points except to say that we do not condone rape, rape culture, or anything like that. We condone helping men achieve self improvement in the form of forming personalities that are attractive to women. If you don't think these personalities are attractive, that's fine with us, but there's no reason to come here and try and convince us to stop trying to better ourselves. one of the fundamental tenants of seduction is that we do not base our self image off of fear of the perception of other, that is, we are confident of who we are regardless of what others think of us. So please leave us alone, you all are making it harder for us to help people that actually want to better themselves.

[–]mstrkrft- 7 points8 points9 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

How are they different, exactly? You say they are different, but then you don't say how they're different.

If you're pushing too far in a job interview, you risk not getting the job. Sucks for you if it happens. If you're pushing too far in flirting/dating kind of situation, you risk harassing and possibly hurting someone. Hurting them a lot even, in the worst case. Sucks for you (if you realized that) but sucks a whole lot more for the other person you're interacting with. That's the difference.

Assuming consent is ignoring what the girl's body and mouth are saying to you, and just having your way with a woman.

No, that's ignoring consent. Assuming consent is exactly what the text says:

Decide that you're going to sit in a position where you can rub her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don't ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances.

It explicitly tells you to touch touch her etc without asking for permission. Thereby assuming she is okay with it unless she explicitly says otherwise (and even then there are still other qualifiers about that, because she doesn't just have to say no, she has to 'genuinely' say no.. and if her saying no was genuine or not if of course yours to judge).

Alright, I'm getting a little worked up, so I'm not even going to address your other points except to say that we do not condone rape, rape culture, or anything like that.

I don't think you're condoning rape and I don't think you want to harass women. But I do think that the text (and from what I can tell and if I'm allowed to generalize the whole PUA/seduction community, although I'm sure there are exceptions) perpetuates an attitude that puts your own good over the risk of harassing someone. Which is part of rape culture. I don't think anyone here wants to harass women, but it's a risk that is accepted because it puts the responsibility on the potential victims.

but there's no reason to come here and try and convince us to stop trying to better ourselves.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to stop trying to better themselves, I just don't think that what is considered better isn't necessarily so.

[–]mhuzzell 7 points8 points9 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]itsmevichet -4 points-3 points-2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

the default assumption is that she's okay with whatever you're doing.

The original post was written with the following assumptions in mind, built on the 1000 or so words that came before the quoted passages, and the 1000s from the sections of Tofu's advice before that.

The assumptions in the article by the time you get to the quoted controversy was that there are two people who are on a date, having good conversation, no red flags as defined by either party, and that the woman has responded positively to physical closeness, touching, kissing, and varying degrees of clothing behind closed doors.

So, yes. Tofu worded his article with bravado. "Take out your c---." But the assumption there is that she has enjoyed all of the escalations made before that. Take out your c--- is step 10, as it were. The article by that point assumes that she has responded positively to everything leading up to that, from giving her number, to going on the date, to laughing at jokes, to being comfortable with physical proximity, to enjoying a kiss, to enjoying other touching, to enjoying nakedness.

[–]mstrkrft- 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]itsmevichet -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]mstrkrft- 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]manustillflops -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]notausedrusgername -7 points-6 points-5 points 13 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]manustillflops 10 points11 points12 points 13 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I must be an idiot if I think one of 130,000 people could ever rape a woman? That is an incredibly naive statement which really does a lot to illustrate how big the problem of sexual assault is in this country and how oblivious so many people are to it. The odds of one person in 130,000 committing rape are not impossible, like you seem to think. They're depressingly likely odds. I am not an idiot for thinking it's possible that someone here could commit rape. The odds are actually pretty substantial. This post may not be representative of the subreddit it was posted in, but it is not building better men. It is building predators due to the part devoted to escalation and sex. Consent is not assumed. It is spoken, in no uncertain terms, after it is asked for. If a man (or woman) can't manage to ask for it in a way that maintains the sensual intimacy, that is their shortcoming to work on. No one is eligible to be sexually assaulted just because their suitor can't find a good way to ask if they would like to take it to the next level.

Your method of resorting to attacking me personally is uninformed, incorrect, and contributes nothing. I'm not here to get into an ad hominem shouting match with people. Continue to take unwarranted, uninformed shots against my character if it makes you feel any better, but I'm not going to engage and it is not going to do anything to help me agree with you. If you want to continue with an actual discussion, I am more than happy to do that.

Edit: I forgot how to grammar a sentence.

[–]notausedrusgername 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You're right. Anything is possible. And I'm sorry you've never felt enough connection and attraction to a person to assume consent to physical escalation between the two of you. I'm sorry you can't feel comfortable enjoying that sort of assumption and implication in a relationship. It's that sort of connection that's like an inside joke between you and a close friend where the words you say to each other make you laugh because of their deeper meaning but no one else outside yourselves get it. You two just get it, while everyone else is in the dark.

Right now you see us like we're in the dark. I don't know who you think you're helping, but you can see from the FRs and other posts here, no one seems to be getting hurt, but maybe in fact even enjoying what what we do.

I'm surprised someone as intelligent sounding as yourself could find yourself talking down on something that, for whatever your own reasons, you seem to refuse understand. Escalating physically doesn't mean we're predators. It just means we're looking to take it to the next level. I mean I could write you a poem about it before hand but I like it better when we both just get it and just go for it knowing we're attracted to each other. I'm sorry you feel attacked by me if this were how I felt toward you and you couldn't get outside yourself enough to understand and empathize with my way of displaying it.

[–]manustillflops 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Again, I'm not going to reply to any assumptions made or shots taken at my personal life. It contributes nothing and accomplishes nothing. There is no other way to say it other than to say you are just wrong. Consent is not implied. It is verbally given. It does not need to be a technical process that breaks intimacy, but it is a verbal requirement. If someone wants to escalate the situation with the person they are with, they need a verbal affirmation from the person there are with that they want to do so as well. This is true in all circumstances, but it applies most before the parties involved have ever engaged in this kind of activity, which is the most intended audience for the post Tofu wrote. There is no way around it. Consent is never assumed.

Edit for addition: Tofu's point about forcing her to rebuff your advances means he is suggesting this course of action while there is still room for both parties to misunderstand one another because of lack of communication (ie, not receiving/giving consent) and not "get it", as you put it.

Second edit: Just clarifying a sentence's meaning with more exact language/correct grammar.

[–]SocraticSophist 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

As a woman living in the US, I feel that I have to speak up on this since this seems to be a very widespread belief that asking questions or permission "isn't fun" or "isn't sexy".

My current lover and I were sitting on a dock and talking as friends. Just shooting the shit at night with the waves lapping at the seawall. And after a bit of silence he turned to me and asked "Can I kiss you?" Just a kiss, not sex, not a veiled innuendo, just honest to god permission asking for a small moment of intimacy. And it remains one of the highlights of my memory.

Up until that point, I had only been with aggressive or spontaneous people. Not one single time was I ever asked what I wanted, when I wanted it. And I shut up and dealt with it because, hey, whatcha gonna do? Just think of England, make up an excuse to get out of there as fast as you can, and pray that you never see them again. That isn't fun. That isn't exciting, even with people I wanted to sleep with. It changed from a fun situation to just a thing that sort of... happened. Nice enough, but ultimately off-putting or even just dull.

Being made to feel like your opinion matters, that you have some control and say in the situation, that the person cares enough to check in and make sure that you are feeling okay? It makes you feel like you matter to them, and that is one of the sexiest feelings in the world. Big hint to everyone on here and this is coming from someone who sees a lot more women than men. Be nice, be funny, be yourself, but above all treat women like they are PEOPLE. Just. Normal. People.

This isn't very hard.

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[–]puaCurveBall[S,M] 7 points8 points9 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]manustillflops 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That first point may have been misguided and I apologize. This is an issue very close to my heart for a few different reasons and it is often a trigger for me. I did not mean to approach you with malice as I know you are not the one who wrote those words. I apologize for taking that out on you, it was not my intent. Still, I feel like it must be discussed and I feel that the epicenter of the event is appropriate enough. I feel that way, many of the people who were involved in those posts may be able to both contribute, and hear what others have to contribute that they have not considered. Maybe there is a better way to arrange that so that everyone can be aware of it, but it seems to me that the frequenters of seddit who read his posts ought to hear what other people have to say about it. I also misinterpreted your apprehension to discuss it as defense of him and his action. I read your last sentence too emotionally and interpreted it as your defense of him, instead of an actual invitation to consider the situation. I apologize for that.

[–]puaCurveBall[S] 12 points13 points14 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for being reasonable, it is all cool :) I know it can be tough with a lot of emotions flying.

The purpose of this subreddit is clearly stated, and I don't think we should derail the mission statement of the sub so that a minority can argue about drama. If you want to discuss on 2x or anywhere else, I'd be happy.

Edit: I should clarify, because after I re-read your post, I realize what you meant about "ought to hear".

I realize from your perspective, there might be sheltered readers who are interpreting his advice badly (as a license to assault), who need to be shown an alternative perspective. I don't think this is widely the case. Even if it were, that would be better suited as a post about consent (which we actually have had several of these), rather than discussing someone's specific kickstarter project.

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[–]bl1y 22 points23 points24 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Imagine if instead of being about attracting women, the forum was about developing and marketing snack foods.

The commentary would be largely about the bliss point, the exact right balance of salt, fat and sugar that turns the brain completely dopey and we just can't resist gorging ourselves. I've heard the bliss point discussed on NPR, and I was thoroughly creeped out. If I went to that snack food development forum and complained about how creepy I thought this manipulation of our primitive brains was, I think I might be properly told I was in the wrong forum.

The forum is about how to get people to like your food, not how to get them to like your development process.

Same thing with Seddit. Guys don't go around with a Wikipedia-style edit history for their personalities that's available to any woman they interact with to peruse. It's not particularly relevant if people find the writing here offensive; what matters is if when you actually talk to a woman she perceives you as offensive.

Not that there's no room for the meta discussion about the pickup community, this just isn't really it.

[–]NaturalAFC 22 points23 points24 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Moderatorrecyclablebantha 8 points9 points10 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]puaCurveBall[S] 23 points24 points25 points 13 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

That is an excellent question, and one often asked.

Put simply, the vast majority of women are not nearly self-aware enough to give practical advice. To be clear, I don't think the vast majority of men are either, which is why this subreddit exists in the first place.

Now, if you give me a woman who is a dating coach, or a lesbian who has a lot of experience seducing women, then that is totally allowed and great advice! I'm sure that by having real world experience, they will have good advice.

However, asking your average woman what "works" is like asking someone who has been going to therapy for 10 years advice on a serious psychological problem.... being in the chair a bunch doesn't gives you the skills of the psychiatrist. For instance, I have taken many girls out who are experimenting with bisexuality or just are getting into the lesbian dating scene. These girls are completely clueless about how to pick up another girl, even if before they went out the first time they were giving guys advice left and right.

Furthermore, we value practical advice. Meaning that if you can make a post that shows with empirical evidence tested in the field for how adopting your mindsets or hearing about how "creepy / violent" someone is being actually improves their results, then please go for it!

However, most of the criticism is NOT practical advice. It is emotionally charged and personal responses, which often do not actually change the efficacy of the material.

This is a bigger debate, and I'd ask we take it somewhere else if you want it to continue, I do hope that it gives you some insight into why we don't feel most responses stemming from this drama will be productive.

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[–]Moderatorrecyclablebantha 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Can you see how this can come off as offensive and condescending?

Also, average people are not the dating equivalent of mentally ill.

He wasn't talking about being mentally ill. If you came here to have a constructive conversation, you're going to be better served by not distorting what people say.

He distinctly said that a lot of men AND women lack self-awareness. And that this lack of self-awareness leads to men caming here to try to educate themselves.

Meanwhile we see a lot of women coming through Seddit and trying to advise Sedditors but since they also often lack self-awareness, that advise is often lacking in insight. It's not a knock on women.

If you want to see his conclusion about the lack of self-awareness among both men and women as offensive, before you even ask him about his premises for that conclusion, that is your choice, but such a choice does not equal constructive conversation. (Read: you could ask him how he came to this conclusion, rather than interpreting his statement to mean that he insulted you or condescended to you.)

[–][deleted] 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]puaCurveBall[S] 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]frogma 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It's like a basketball fan trying to join the NBA because they know a lot about basketball. They know plenty of strategies, but they don't actually play basketball, so they probably won't qualify for the NBA. They know a ton of hypotheticals, but since they've never actually played, they won't be a very good player.

Likewise, a heterosexual man won't be very good for advice on how to pick up men, because he's never actually done it before -- he's only been on the receiving end of it (and even then, probably no more than a handful of times), so he can definitely talk about hypotheticals and what he thinks he wants, but a woman who actually has experience with it will probably give much better advice, and it'll be coming from the same perspective as the person who's hearing the advice (which is probably the biggest factor).

[–]puaCurveBall[S] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]dam072000 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Moderatorrecyclablebantha -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I said this:

Can you see how this can come off as offensive and condescending?

Also, average people are not the dating equivalent of mentally ill.

He wasn't talking about being mentally ill.......If you want to see his conclusion about the lack of self-awareness among both men and women as offensive, before you even ask him about his premises for that conclusion, that is your choice, but such a choice does not equal constructive conversation. (Read: you could ask him how he came to this conclusion, rather than interpreting his statement to mean that he insulted you or condescended to you.)

So I don't see how you went from that to this, which I wasn't talking about....

However, asking your average woman what "works" is like asking someone who has been going to therapy for 10 years advice on a serious psychological problem....

I don't see how I am distorting what was said.

I just brought up something that was distorted and you side-stepped what I brought up, changed the subject and then claim you don't understand why I'm talking about subjects being distorted.

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Most people have thousands of hours of experience in any given field. Take for example, if someone works a full time job for one year, they have 2,000+ hours. If they work that same job for two years, that's 4,000 hours. Furthermore, the people you speak with in the community are going to have a bias. There are women out there who like the advice that is being given there, and they come here and likely comment. However, there are plenty of women who do not approve of the suggestions being given here and individuals like yourself are constantly justifying what's going on, rather than take what is being said to heart.

But if you want to speak numbers and facts we use on a daily basis, then lets look at what is currently going on. Over 50,000 people strongly disapprove of some of the content that has been supported in this community. Articles from Forbes to Huffington post have posted on the topic. The community is about to come under a lot of scrutiny and where information is coming from is going to be closely watched.

I'm not going to get into the content the articles discussed, since like you said,this is not the place to do it, but I do think that there needs to be some changes in the policies. I think anything that could be considered harassment to anyone, not just the members, needs to be moderated. If what was being advised only affected people in the community, that would be one thing. But the advice is being given to be used on people who are not within the community. From what I have read in the policy, the only people who the rules are protecting are the individuals of the community.

For example, one of the rules say "no calling anyone a rapist". There's nothing that says "If you feel like someone in the community is making a suggestion that others might find uncomfortable, invasive, etc, then please contact a moderator and it will be reviewed". You do have "not helpful" but that's different than something being potentially dangerous or upsetting.

[–]puaCurveBall[S] 7 points8 points9 points 13 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

there are plenty of women who do not approve of the suggestions being given here

It doesn't really matter if women approve of the suggestions being given here. (hear me out)

I'm not trying to minimize the implications that such advice might have on the society at large, but this is not a subreddit to discuss the societal implications about pickup, this is about getting guys (and girls) really really skilled at meeting and fucking strangers. And as long as women are fucking / dating / enjoying the company of our members, it doesn't matter if they approve of the methods.

Now, you might think this is insensitive, but there is simply no way we could function if we limited any speech that others found offensive. This forum is not about making people warm and cuddly, it is about actually improving peoples social prospects. And it works.

If you want to start a subreddit discussing the societal implications, I will comment there, hell I'll even help mod it if you want.

Now, if I had any actual evidence that the methods used were actually encouraging any assaults, then I would take action to prevent that from happening, but in 99% of the cases I've found interacting with guys, we are talking about "nice guys" who have never been able to talk to a girl before trying to get their first kiss at 25 years old, not serial rapist looking for victims.

Instead of taking any evidence that advice is leading to a higher incidence of assault, people want to jump on badly phrased quotes. People want to pretend that your average guy is one piece of advice away from being a rapist at any moment in his life, which simply is not the case.

When I look at guys that have implemented this material, I see them have many girls in their life that are extremely happy to have found such an awesome guy. I see a lot of good will and good being done because of this, because I can turn a really "nice" guy that has no chance with women and give him the skills to have multiple girlfriends or just a really awesome monogamous wife.

Now, you want me to ignore all this evidence I've seen and go around changing policies, not because you have a personal story where you met with a dozen PUA and they were all rapist, but because you and others are upset at how some advice was phrased on the internet.

That doesn't make sense to me.

[–]nolongerlurking1 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I do appreciate that to you are taking the time to respond to my comments and others. That is definitely an encouraging thing to see (and much better than a certain funding website who has resorted to deleting multiple comments...)

Everyone's got different turnons that rock their socks. If someone genuinely enjoys someone who is more assertive/aggressive and isn't being harmed in any way, more power to them. Different strokes for different folks. However, the concerning issue with some of the content is that there's "no asking for permission" and then trying again, even after rebuffed.

That more than anything and similar attitudes like that, are what I believe have caused so many people to get upset. I don't know any PUA myself, but I have done volunteer work with victims of domestic violence/sexual assault, who are both male and female. There are many individuals out there who are passive and afraid to speak up when someone is doing something to them that makes them uncomfortable. Their significant other pressures them into sexual situations that they are not comfortable with, but they are too timid to speak up for whatever the reason.

There has been advice here that isn't focused on strangers, it's focused on someone the individual has been dating for awhile. The person who is being advanced on might be passive or they might like more forward flirting, but it's always a good idea to get consent before touching. If nothing else, it also protects the PUA. Lets' say someone follows any advice here that is given, which includes touching without permission, especially around the genital area. If a man or a woman does that and does not seek any consent, and then tries again later after being rebuffed, they can be charged for sexual misconduct. A man or woman might very well have the intent of just wanting to seduce the person, because hey, that's what the advice on here said, but the law would say differently.

All I'm asking is to have posts like that to be reviewed and have some information about what following that could lead to. Have a disclaimer like "this is a more high risk approach to take." I've heard that there is a section that goes into rape education/preventing it, etc. That sort of information should be included any time someone uses a more high risk attempt at being seductive. Like I was previously saying, I think it would be a good idea for any posts like that to be reviewed by the moderators. I'm not asking it to be instantly taken down, but reviewed and see if that was something that could be illegal.

I don't doubt that there are plenty of people who have found this forum beneficial. However, it does include information that could be dangerous for both the PUA and the person who is being approached. I don't actively follow this subreddit, but I do browse relationship advice/dead bedroom, and some other forums off of reddit where this type of approach has lead to some bad decisions.

tl;dr I think it would be beneficial to highlight this type of interaction as high risk, explain some of the outcomes, and include the info on rape/boundaries along with the rest of the info.

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I don't know whether you raped anyone or not -- and I do want to be absolutely clear on this point: it is possible to rape someone without realizing that you're doing it.

However, I do want to address this point, because I feel like there is a lot of confusion here. Explicit consent doesn't mean there has to be a break in the action, doesn't have to be all formal, doesn't even necessarily have to be phrased as a question. It doesn't even necessarily have to be verbal, although, especially if you know yourself to be not the greatest at reading body language, it really, really ought to be, at least until you have an established relationship with some ongoing implied consent you can lean on.

Dude: "Damn, I wanna fuck you!"

Lady: "Mmm, yeah!" -- is consent (assuming that she understands that the not-phrased-as-question question is in fact that -- e.g., they're already naked and rolling around and he pulls out a condom. There are certainly situations where that exchange might just be someone agreeing with the idea of fucking.)

Dude: <applies condom to erect penis while lady watches>

Lady: <grins, thrusts crotch up to dude's penis> -- is consent (under most circumstances -- not necessarily in all situations!)

Dude: "My dearest lady, wouldst thou allow me to place inside of you my manhood, which thou hath engorged with thy passionate embraces, and which I have since encased in yon lambskin?"

Lady: "Troth, verily!" -- is also consent, although it's a bit boner-shrivelling, unless you're into that kind of thing.

I guess what I'm getting at is that an enthusiastically participating partner is a consenting partner, because enthusiastic participation in sexytimes is a form of non-verbal consent. But if your partner is more passive, or even just more submissive, it becomes important to get more explicit verbal consent, because without it, you just don't know whether or not they are internally consenting -- that is, whether or not you are raping them.

(Edited to fix formatting. And then again for clarity.)

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