I would advise not to use the "black on black crime" gotcha as a response to feminists bringing up statistics about men being violent.

Due-Heron-5577 · 2026-03-25T13:31:00+00:00

Mark Brooks OBE had a really good way of putting this that closes the door on rhetorical trickery. I’m paraphrasing here, words to the effect of:

“It should really come as no surprise that the minority of people who commit violent crimes are usually men when the overwhelming majority of people who come to violent harm in our society are also men.”

Memorise the above. You may also benefit from my own addition, you all have my express permission to copy and paste this or paraphrase it as you see fit:

“Men are the primary targets of both men’s and women’s violence in our society. This ought to tell us that the root cause of men being victimised so much more frequently is not, in fact, “other men”; it is the widespread social acceptability and normalisation of violence against men.

That men are overrepresented in this small group of offenders is merely a downstream effect of our excessive tolerance to the their coming to harm. Rebuttals that centre this small piece of the picture are not made in good faith. They are essentially designed to delegitimise and derail discussion about violence against men. The people who make them frustrate progress and are therefore part of the problem.”

2026-03-25T13:08:03+00:00

I get the point you’re making, but is it not a good thing to draw that distinction for the explicit purposes of highlighting how racist a lot of radfem talking points are? It’s hardly a gotcha when they do believe those things, imo it’s good to make ppl bite the bullets if their belief systems bc if they refuse to then the cognitive dissonance is easier for everyone else to witness

Specific_Detective41 · 2026-03-25T13:49:32+00:00

I think it's a good point to bring up because a lot of feminists are racists too. There's female perpetrated DV stats in non western countries. That's usually a good rebuttal to their arguments that men in non western countries are more violent and patriarchal than men in the west.

Secondly Ana isn't the only one making that redundant point about the Epstein case being about violent men taking advantage of women. Virtually every mainstream media outlet and pundits are mentioning these points as well.

griii2 · 2026-03-25T12:40:33+00:00

I respectfully disagree. We use race in these arguments because both race and gender are immutable characteristics, and the analogy of not grouping people by immutable characteristics is clear. And I would not say it is "conservatives" who do this.

Exavior31 · 2026-03-25T12:53:34+00:00

That's not a clever rebuttal, misandrists who takes that line are literally outing themselves as racist to the audience/onlookers.

By validating the stigma that black men are violent and predatory, they are explicitly perpetuating racism in the process of doubling down on their essentialist bigotry. Showing they would rather be racist and misandrist than be neither.

That's a rhetorical W for the MRA.

volatile-solution · 2026-03-25T13:00:28+00:00

absurd takes get absurd rebuttals.

this group who makes such retarded, malicious arguments don't use the same logic when it comes to other divisions such as race...

if it helps them to behave and argue in good faith, i don't see any problem with it.

My_Legz · 2026-03-25T13:45:01+00:00

It was always an effective gotcha because the average online feminist wasn't willing to grapple with that fact. It was never an actual argument against their position. So basically, you are right but it did work as long as the particular feminist you argued with wasn't willing to grapple with that

Centaur_Warchief123 · 2026-03-25T13:00:58+00:00

Your post doesn’t really make any sense, considering men of other races like white and asian do not have the same statistics about crime as black men, so if a feminist thinks men have more propensity to commit crime than women because of crime statistics then they must also think the same about black people.

Trying to play the statistics game against men while rightfully talking about how statistics aren’t a good measure when it comes to black people just shows the lying and hypocritical nature of feminists. Feminists are just as bigoted as racists, trying to debate with them is meaningless.

Alternative-Tax7318 · 2026-03-25T15:56:44+00:00

Feminists are oblivious to how similar they are ideologically to right wing thinking.

AriochBloodbane · 2026-03-25T14:21:40+00:00

TL:DR: everything good men do is not significant, everything bad men do is ALL men, everything good women do is ALL women, everything bad women do is men's fault 😝

AdOtherwise3824 · 2026-03-25T13:44:03+00:00

So, I am a bit confused. Because I usually see the argument *after there's some broadly applied fear/hatred of men and violence that they double down with "it's statistics"* that "if statistics are what govern your life, then you would be significantly more afraid of black men and the men you already know." I've seen similar permutations of that argument. The purpose is to call out their cherry picking and to call out the hypocrisy of lumping all men together whilst being all mad about the same thing, just about race.

I'm not sure if that is what you are actually talking about though. Your easy rebuttal examples would not apply to the above argument, imo. So what specifically are you critiquing?

Otherwise-Waltz7085 · 2026-03-25T15:52:21+00:00

I don't think the analogy with race is effective even though I think it is a good analogy.

The reason it's not effective is that most people dismiss it without thinking honestly about it. Someone who sees themselves as progressive and sees you as conservative (which, anyone who is advocating for mens rights is in their eyes) will pretty much dismiss it on the spot as some sort of trickery.

The most common response I see is for them to respond that the analogy is, itself, racist. The shallow justification for this might be, essentially, "minorities don't have structural power, but men do, so you don't understand..."

It's just not an analogy that meets them where they're at.

Punder_man · 2026-03-25T19:23:58+00:00

This is a common rebuttal I see a lot of MRA conservatives types use. But I noticed that a lot of feminists try to find a cleaver way by deflecting this argument. By saying that violence in the black community is being done by black men. And black men are still men. So therefore it's still men's fault. Proving their point about men being statistically violent.

I disagree, in my experience most feminists refuse to respond when you bring up black on black crime because they realize that the arguments they would use to justify their position on it would reveal them as racists..
If anything they will squirm and deflect by trying to move the argument back to the nebulous "Men" discussion so they can go on blaming men while ignoring the race element.

The clear example here is when feminists use the "Rape and Violent Crime" statistics to support their narrative of "Men bad!" or "Men are violent"
They have ZERO nuance and instead hold up the crime statistics as though they are immutable facts or truth..

But when you point out that the statistics also show that its black men who commit the majority of violent crimes instantly "Nuance" enters the game and becomes important..
Heck, they will try to label you as a racist for bringing it up...

I've also noticed that if you were to bring up crimes in which women are the majority offenders, once again they are all about "Nuance" and "Critical Thinking"
But when it comes to Rape, Domestic Violence or other violent crimes? Nah, the stats paint a clear picture, no nuance required.

country2poplarbeef · 2026-03-25T13:45:41+00:00

If they tried that with me, they'd just be walking into my point, that they've now completely disregarded issues of poverty and institutional racism and this is definitive "white feminism" that co-ops issues of color and class and ignores any causes that don't come back to "men."

PastDifficulty7 · 2026-03-25T13:14:36+00:00

I need some help understanding the point you are trying to make. How is "black on black crime" being used as a rebuttal in this hypothetical argument? I can imagine a lot of hypothetical conversations where it would be problematic, but that's me inserting my own thoughts. How have you seen this come up in a real conversation?

Speedy_KQ · 2026-03-25T15:41:33+00:00

I've never thought that argument meant much to critical theory "woke" people because they believe the rules are different for oppressor groups and oppressed groups. Negative generalizations about men are fine, but negative generalizations about black people are not, because the two groups fall on opposite sides of the oppressor/oppressed line.

_vertig0 · 2026-03-28T16:03:06+00:00

And don't forget how feminists also brag about how women are embarrassing men in college education too.

I've always loved that double standard. Anytime it's women who are suffering and doing worse in a certain statistic it's systemic oppression and misogyny that's keeping them in line, but when it's men that objectively suffer worse in another statistic while women are doing better men should just suck less and it's proof that all men are manchildren living in mom's basement who would die in droves in mere seconds without a woman to wait on them and care for their every need around the clock.

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anomnib · 2026-03-25T17:58:33+00:00

The best argument is the logical inconsistency.

When something is good or neutral, programming or math, and it is dominated by men, they say it is because women are blocked out of opportunities.

When something is bad and dominated by men, they say that it is because men are inherently bad. It is perfectly plausible that if the size difference between men and women were negligible, then more women would be violent. What’s the evidence? Look close at DV statistics: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTinMen/s/WsTfrw9e9c

CeleneDreamfern · 2026-03-25T18:15:58+00:00

i never thought about it like that, like they don’t apply the same logic everywhere lol

No-Credit7944 · 2026-03-25T20:04:52+00:00

Is it true that women are discriminated against in these kinds of jobs? If that's true, I'd still think part of it is men being conditioned into dangerous jobs, danger in general, so I still wouldn't view it as an advantage of men or something.

SaltyPercentage6334 · 2026-03-26T09:33:59+00:00

No issue, just point out how feminists are cherry picking, how their counterarguments means women are more the oppessor class's pets than actually oppressed, point out they are using he mental gymnastics of racists and call them ret4rds because that is what they are. Be as smug as possible and point out women like Andrea Yates, child killers, by their logic, represent women just for the lulz.

Also, point out that any s attempt women try is for attention. Be as purile as possible and mock the heck out of them and remind them that feminism has failed to bring us egalitarianism.

SeaBeyond5465 · 2026-03-26T18:56:46+00:00

Both are good, but it is extremely important to point out the fact that their rants against men are using the exact same language as the racists and xenophobes.

ChimpPimp20 · 2026-03-28T00:37:44+00:00

Feminists will tell you that women commit just as much s*icide as men. Despite all the bragging they do about women having better support systems than the unemotional intelligent men.

Hmm...I've never put these two together. This needs to be looked into further.

lemons7472 · 2026-03-30T02:14:28+00:00

What’s weird is that when I bring up that women have always directly oppressed others and or contributed to it, such as slavery, abusing black men and getting them killed, or harassing gay men and trans men and women with objectification or death threats like in the UK, the response that feminist give me is usually to say that those groups were not oppressed for their gender, therefore women never opressed men. Or they downplay it.

This response is contrary to the other responses from other feminist saying “well those are still by other men even if they are POC!”.

But if that’s true, then you’d have to accept that women have always opressed men within other demographics, it doesn’t matter if they were black, gay, or any other iner-identity of men, because they are still men. You can’t now say it doesn’t count when women do it just because those men were oppressed for different characteristics besides gender. Let’s be honest, gender does play a part in it in some cases.

I think feminist pick and choose when to either ignore or use gender depending on if it fits their argument. If it’s a woman affecting men or another demographic of men, then gender is suddenly not part of it, it cannot be used as an example of women being dangerous or harming men, at least by their logic. Sure that woman that called the cops on that black man walking to get him harassed or worse is there, but feminist see that as racism, and deny that stuff like that affects men.

But here since it’s black on black crime is by other men affecting men, feminist will choose to use gender as part of why it’s valid to use the same logic of black on black crime, because those are black men affecting black men, therefore it’s proof that men are dangerous…even though those black men probably did not kill those fellow men because of their gender at all.

Radiant-Pain6895 · 2026-03-25T17:46:46+00:00

I'm so confused I just got a hate speech violation for my comment down below what the hell??

ExternalGreen6826 · 2026-03-26T05:53:06+00:00

Everything is a paradox 🙄

king_rootin_tootin · 2026-03-31T08:12:55+00:00

I always bring up child abuse in single mother households and how children are more likely to suffer abuse from single mother homes than single father homes, proportionately.

A single mother household is a matriarchal system by its very nature, and yet there is so much abuse therein.

2026-03-25T13:01:04+00:00

[permanently deleted]

ReclaimingMine · 2026-03-25T14:09:06+00:00

Problem is the MRA still has many racists ideologies in its movement that attract racist (who could be for men’s rights) which muddies the water.

It needs to be a movement focused on one single thing, men’s rights.

No racial division, no religious affiliation and definitely no political siding.

Edit; down voted because of denial that it doesn’t have racist faction or that it SHOULD be racial, religious and political?

Title	I would advise not to use the "black on black crime" gotcha as a response to feminists bringing up statistics about men being violent.
Author	PassengerCultural421
Upvotes	2
Comments	58
Date	March 25, 2026 12:28 PM UTC (3 months ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1s39bg5/i_would_advise_not_to_use_the_black_on_black/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/i-would-advise-not-to-use-the-black-on-black-crime.1576365 https://theredarchive.com/post/1576365

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