Falling down the rabbit hole

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September 29, 2017

Gentlemen, hello. I am not even sure how I ended up on MRP but somehow I stumbled on it very recently. Read a few posts and realized I had no idea what any of you were talking about. The terminology was almost completely foreign to me. So I started investigating, and started reading, and now I feel like I have completely fallen down the rabbit hole.

I bought NMMNG, MMSLP, WISNIFG, and The Rational Male, and am well into NMMNG right now. It's pretty eye-opening. I started highlighting everything that I related to in NMMNG. Every time I turned the page, it was like "Oh.... that's me."

I think am probably a Career Beta, kind of. There are some aspects of my situation that don't line up with that though. I have been lifting weights for about 15 years. I'm 40 years old, and I have a very successful career. My wife had a very successful career as well prior to our children being born. She's now a stay-at-home Mom with some part time work here and there. I am very goal-oriented and disciplined. I think I'm just a complete doormat. I have no game and no idea how to lead or generate attraction. I am a Drunk Captain. Ugh.

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks to all of you guys, and say hello.

Immediate needs / questions: I am a little dumbfounded right now as I'm reading through the material. I've become acutely self-aware of my behavior at home. I have no frame whatsoever. I guess I just keep my head down until I get some reading and understanding under my belt? Continue on in the pathetic attempts at a sex life that I've had in the past? I don't want to Rambo this situation and screw it up. (Thanks for the bad examples, as well)

Post Information
Title Falling down the rabbit hole
Author IndependentKirk
Upvotes 10
Comments 44
Date 29 September 2017 11:14 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/205370
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/73752y/falling_down_the_rabbit_hole/
Similar Posts

Red Pill terms found in post:

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret15 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy

Morpheus: I imagine that right now, you're feeling a bit like Alice. Hmm? Tumbling down the rabbit hole?

Neo: You could say that.

Morpheus: I see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, that's not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?

Neo: No.

Morpheus: Why not?

Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.

Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Neo: The Matrix.

Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?

Neo: Yes.

Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.

Neo: What truth?

Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.

[–]innominating8 points9 points  (7 children) | Copy


Search 12 levels of dread and read that post. Better yet buy the book. That is as close to a road map as you'll get.

If you do it right your wife won't notice any drastic personality changes in you. They need to happen gradually right before her eyes.

Don't talk about this shit to her or anyone.

[–]IndependentKirk[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

I'll search for it thanks. No this definitely can't be mentioned to her, I can see that would be stupid.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

It is tempting. When she asks why you've become an asshole and tells you she wants the old you back, you have to be able to fog, AA and AM instead of simply explaining that you are now her AF and not her BB.

[–]SailorAground1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Exactly why the order to read the books in should be WISNIFG first and then NMMNG.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Of all the sidebar, it had had the biggest impact for me.

[–]SailorAground1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm right there with you. Reading it, I realized just how much I self-edited my speech and how much I let others' opinions of me and my ideas affect me. Fogging, negative assertion, and negative inquiry were game changers.

[–]FlyingSexistPig0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

12 levels of dread are a great place to go to have your situation improve.

You start off by dressing better, worrying a little more about personal hygiene and lifting. You say you've been lifting for 15 years. The goal right now, then, assuming that you have a solid foundation on which to build, is to reduce your bodyfat and increase your physique.

Your time and your attention are your most valuable commodities. Spend them wisely.

[–]simbarlionRed Beret3 points4 points  (14 children) | Copy

Welcome kirk. I can already see you are a rare newby bird here with your measured attitude and lack of major relationship issues. It takes a long time to digest the reading. I suggest avoiding trying to 'test out' the ideas,,as this will freak your wife out. Look at is a minimum of 6 months journey. You will be burnt at the stake if you dont get your arse to the gym and lift weights.

As a priority, after lifting, try to work out from the books which issues are relvant to you - i know you have mentioned drunk captain etc.

But you have not actually articulated what the problem is... Are you unhappy? lack of sex?

This info is key for the useful advice to start to flow

[–]IndependentKirk[S] 5 points6 points  (12 children) | Copy

Lack of sex for sure; I'm on the monthly plan. Lack of respect. And just mad that nobody has told me any of this before.

[–]simbarlionRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah thats where i came from. Sounds like life has gone flat after kids and the wife has let go of the sex, or more accurately, you have, cause you control that shit. I'm still at it but sharpening up my game, looks, fitness, attitude has been great for me. I still complain about her attitude and lack of respect.(for fucks sake where is the sub for women trying to improve for me?)

There is a good saying here, be attractive, don't be unattractive. It really embodies most of the strategies here. Get fit, to point where chicks look twice, or comment, or approach. Let go of any frustrations about her and why she caused this to happen. Maybe its her, maybe its you. Doesn't matter cause it is up to you to fix.

The fact that you don't hate her is a good start. You married a hot starlet and she married her adonis. Are you still that guy? Cause she is the starlet for THAT guy. Be that guy again. It takes time. She wont believe your changes are real. Persevere. And when you have busted your nut for 6 months and she only budges a bit, well you start to not give a fuck. And then you are thankful her shitty behaviour led you towards not giving a fuck. And in the biggest irony that is life it is the changes you make, then not giving a fuck, that swing that big old ship around.

[–]FlyingSexistPig2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

There are phases to the Red Pill.
1) Denial
2) Anger
3) Bargaining
4) Depression
5) Acceptance

Anger is a BIG part of it. Lots of people spend 6 months in the Anger phase. It will pass.

I can tell you that I went from a once-a-month-if-that marriage to a she-can't-get-enough-of-me relationship with the red pill.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

And just mad that nobody has told me any of this before.

beware the anger. take the anger out on the weights, in your cardio, and in that sweet feeling of starvation as you cut.

when you look in the mirror, can you say "i would definitely fuck me?"

I have been lifting weights for about 15 years.

how much do you weigh, and how much can you squat/bench/DL?

I guess I just keep my head down until I get some reading and understanding under my belt? Continue on in the pathetic attempts at a sex life that I've had in the past?

you guess right, digest the prerequesites before changing anything up in the interactions with the wife with on possible exception: STFU level 1:

  • stop complaining to your wife . . . about anything . . . just don't

  • stop begging, whining, or otherwise have any conversation about sex or "the relationship"

[–]IndependentKirk[S] -1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy

Yes I can say that. As you know, strength varies over time, and I can't tell you what my maxes are right now. I'm sure my DL is in the 400s (500 max at one point), Squat is probably mid-high 300s (435 max at one point) and bench is probably mid 200s (275 max at one point).

I'm 6'1 and weighed 193 this morning.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy

that sounds really good, and

As you know, strength varies over time

yes it really does. something i really didn't learn how true until a few years ago when i stopped fucking around and started seriously lifting. i'm still amazed how fast strength falls off when you're truly operating at your max . . . probably doesn't help that i'm almost 49.

physically you're on point. another thing you can start working on right away is basic grooming. IMHO, i would hold off on any major manscaping or fashion changes until you're through the prereqs and dread levels 1-3. this almost always brings on a shit test hurricane; and you want to be in a mental state to smash this test for maximum effect.

how you doing on that basic STFU i laid out

[–]IndependentKirk[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

Complaining, apologizing, covert contracts, it's all terrible. This is where I need the most improvement I think. I've been screwed since day 1 all the way back to growing up I'm starting to recognize. Just terrible.

I've led a few misguided conversations about sex and the relationship before that netted a change for about a week. I'm just starting to see why that was and why it was not the right approach.

I cede entirely too much responsibility for what happens in my life and our life to her. That to me is what really needs to stop.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

i kinda guessed this when you said how much NMMNG spoke to you. that being said; read through it the first time and then come back and do all the exercises. you will also find WISNIFG very useful. read the books in order. i've read the prereqs multiple times each.

save TRM for later. very useful, but this book tends to fuel the anger phase.

start working the weekly OYS

you already know this; but never talk about fight club. your reddit OPSEC needs to be tight. you'll need to determine whether it's a good idea to read the books in the open or not. i did; but my wife doesn't give two shits what i'm reading.

I cede entirely too much responsibility for what happens in my life and our life to her.

you should demonstrate ownership and responsibility before you start grabbing the reigns.

[–]470_2_700_nm0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Another good place to begin to turn your mind if she is disengaged is elseware. I mean actually contemplate that. I'm not saying do it now. Allow the 1 month for every year rule to reverse your beta fuckup.

But actually think about other women as viable. Because they are.

If you are hitting up porn or other sexual outlets, stop that. Your wife should be the focus and release of your sexual energy, and failing her, some other woman / women.

Edit - it's great you are lifting like you are. You are way ahead already. But also you have not mentioned your body fat %. No six pack? That's trouble. Google what body type women find most attractive its worth your while.

[–]IndependentKirk[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It's been a long while since I've bothered measuring. I have just used the "how do my clothes fit" scale. I will get the calipers out and measure this weekend. If I had to guess, I'm at 15%. Legit question though. I think body fat is kind of an exponential scale where the difference visibly between say 15% and 10% can be quite eye-catching.

[–]IndependentKirk[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Well crap, it's probably closer to 16-17%. Ugh. Definitely getting this under control. Tanita says 15, Navy method says 17.

[–]470_2_700_nm0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Go by navy and get yourself down to 12 or better. Keto worked for me, make sure you keep enough pteotein. I starved myself - it was worth it. Trick is to lean out without losing muscle mass. Remember each pound of fat has 3500 callories. No beeer, no sugar, very few carbs... lots of water, fat, and protein.

If you are lifting, and are not power lifting switch over. 5x5 to start. Power rack and Olympic weight kind of stuff. Google it. There is an app and a very detailed website.

[–]SimilarSalvation1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Look at is a minimum of 6 months journey.

This is also very important: Don't go full Rambo on your or her life

We all felt (or are still feeling) the initial anger about our clouded pasts, the misguidance by our female caretackers and the lack of manhood that got us to the dead bedrooms and manipulating wifes...

But don't let that anger get to you, don't expect to fix things right here, right now... The reason this subreddit advocates STFU and Lifting is (among other reasons) to avoid going full Rambo: don't try to explain (DEER) your new you to your wife - she won't believe you anyway and work your anger on the iron...

Welcome aboard! - I'm a newbie also and boy I am angry :) But we will do fine, because we saw the truth...

[–]screechhaterRed Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Start growing a beard. Keep it trim and neat.

Look at you body fat ratio and look into keto, if you have to cut some fat.

STFU. If you can't figure out what to say than say nothing. It's important to women can talk themselves out if you listen, yet comment to acknowledge without delving deep. Got it/I understand

Info overload. Domino effect. All of it comes together. Don't get too deep into anyone thing

Book of Pook. Yes. Even fior married guys. Read it. 5x times if you must.

You are not her friend. You are her fuck mate. "The man she desires and craves to fill her full of his energy"

OYS. It's in the Main MRP sub. Go there. Read this.

No woman can fuck their kid. Remember that.

Most of all don't mind fuck every detail to death. Read this

do your best to start at one. Get through it. Keep that going. Then the next step. You should be at 4 within a few months and stay there. Ya she needs the 4/5 treatment. Got it ?

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Just remember that you taking your balls back will almost always piss her off. It's okay though. You have at least a year or more of work more or less ahead of you. Shifting the marriage dynamics that she worked hard to establish takes time. The good news is it usually gets better. If it doesn't, you will be in good shape moving forward and there was nothing there of value anyways for you.

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy

I met a lot of driven, type A people in college. Just like you, they did all the right things.

There are some aspects of my situation that don't line up with that though

Virtually every single one of them was a validation whore. Got to do good in school, got to look good and be in shape. Got a plan, house career, 2.1 kids and cute wife.

Validation whores are career betas. They base their whole purpose, their "mission" on the image they portray to the people around them.

Ask yourself if you've made any life decisions because you thought it would please your wife, parents, or otherwise improve your social standing. Have you ever acquiesced to something because you didn't want to make waves even though you felt it would harm you? Have you ever stumbled in your career because you "Don't play office politics"

Betas get to fuck women, but not for the reasons they think. Betas can be successful inspite of themselves.

[–]IndependentKirk[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I think it's equal parts of what you describe above but also being successful just to spite people who I have perceived as wronging me for whatever reason in the past. Like I said, the NMMNG has me pinned though. Pretty crazy to see everything just laid out there like that page after page.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

what are you going to do about it.

[–]IndependentKirk[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Just getting started. Read, Listen, Learn, Apply, Evaluate. I'm going to OMS.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Best summary of what I'm trying to fix that I've seen in these subs... and I've read it all. Thank you.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

You are getting a lot of feedback from senior members because they can sense you are different from most of the guys who wander in here. Most start asking ridiculous questions and try jam as much of the lingo as they can to seem like they are already part of the gang. You will do fine, your attitude is greay. It's baby steps, yoh already lift so for you it is a matter of learning some really tight game, and taking the pussy off the pedestal. Don't avoid the main sub. There are plenty of top level posts in there which will help your game dramatically. It will also help to violently shake you out of the blue pill nightmare most guys live in. Small steps, read up on game. Read the Book of Pook and the commandments of poon. That stuff is often ignored. Also read The Manipulated Man, but be warned, it is brutal enough to make any grown man with a brain, cry.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

You did not want to see before.

now your first step is to realize that all of the things you will , or will not do, are to make you, Kirk, happy. Not dependent on the feelings of others in your life.

One can only do good things from a good place when one is happy.

So figure out how to do that, slowly. 40 years is a lot of time to resolve - including childhood things likely.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

You've gotten some solid advice here, and I'd like to add a bit more.

I get the dumbfoundedness. Reading NMMNG was like a punch in the balls, wasn't it.

You've got your physical shape on point, but you didn't mention how frequently you get out of the house. I believe that LIFT is one of the first pieces of advice because it has MULTIPLE advantages, not just physical appearance. First, it gets you out of the house - there is some scarcity. Second - you get some time by yourself to reflect on yourself and your plan. Third - obviously the health benefits. Fourth - it boosts your self esteem. If you are not getting out of the house, you might want to consider that.

Some specific suggestions on being the captain:

Owning the finances Detailing out a PLAN with the finances ("Ok honey, here is our 3 month projection, and here is the next big goal we are working toward.") Completely planning the next vacation Planning the weekend activities for the next month Creating a meal plan Getting a calendar white board and getting the schedule set on that Getting a list of stuff that only you can do around the house, and then doing it (aka OYS) Do fun stuff (Arboretum, Zoo, Aquarium, bed and breakfast... I could go on and on) Owning your own health - doctor/physical, dentist, etc. Owning your family's health - set up appts, etc. 

Remember, you are the Captain, and everyone in your house, including your house, is your ship. Start owing your shit. Women talk, men do. Start doing.

Also, do not do "date night". EVERY night is date night - you see why MRP is TRP on Hard Mode.

As other posters have mentioned, the first rule about fight club is that we do not talk about fight club. The second rule about fight club is WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB. You might say to yourself, well, that makes sense; but here's why it makes sense. I'm going to analogize a bit here, talking about fight club is very similar to the "Just Be Yourself" advice you initially get when talking to a girl. The reason why JBY is endorsed by women is that it makes it very easy for them to "get" you, and know what bucket you fall into. Similarly, trying to explain fight club to your wife (or any woman, really) is trying to logic them into doing what you want. You can't logic a woman to be attracted to you/initiate sex with you/get the comfortable feelz with you - that requires a different, MRP-based tact.

I'm going to change the stereotypical "ABC" acronym to the following: Always Be Calibrating. Take this stuff that you read, and then ADAPT it to your specific circumstance. Always be calibrating your responses. Use your critical thinking hat - read what's on here, and really consider how it would work in your situation, then execute.

In jest, I'll say grow a beard. But really, look into it. Beards are a sign of masculinity.

If you are at 0% asshole, you might want to try bumping it up to 5% asshole. Don't go overboard, but change it up.

I appreciate posts like this - you came in with the right attitude, and it's so much better than the troll posts we frequently see on here. Welcome, I hope you take this advice and make some life changes.

[–]IndependentKirk[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Thanks for the reply. Of course since I'm such a Nice Guy all my personal time / personal activities happen before everyone else gets up. I generally am up at 4AM for lifting or just a quiet relaxed morning. With 2 kids under 3, it's about the only quiet time in the house until they're down for bed around 8:30.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I feel your pain with two little kids, as well as getting up very early. Don't be afraid to set up "me time" during the day.

I've taken up golf lessons and golfing. Great hobby - it gets me out of the house, I enjoy it, and it's on the calendar so I have to get out.

[–]rocknrollchuck4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Welcome. The rest of the comments here are fantastic, you are getting investment from the Senior guys because you seem to have come here with the right attitude. Here's some additional reading that is not in the sidebar that most of us here have found very helpful:

One more thing - since you're just getting started, whenever you are unsure what to do in a situation, just STFU. No, that can't be your only move - eventually you have to learn A&A, AM and Fogging as well - but it will help you the most in the beginning.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Baby Steps

You could gradually incorporate things... see how that goes, reserving Rambo mode for if that fails.

You're only on your own timetable at this point.

[–]WesternhagenWinner2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

I think am probably a Career Beta, kind of. There are some aspects of my situation that don't line up with that though. I have been lifting weights for about 15 years. I'm 40 years old, and I have a very successful career.

There is no contradiction at all between lifting weights, career success, and being beta.

[–]IndependentKirk[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Fair point.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

I guess I just keep my head down until I get some reading and understanding under my belt?

New alphas coming in here do one of two things.

  1. What you are proposing...just STFU and go through the day until it all makes sense.


Both are fucked up. STFU is really a base level tactic to do when you don't understand anything else. STFU and leave. STFU and find something else to do.

Smile and move along with your life. Thing is all women project their emotions on others. What they feel is what you are feeling (and for the fucking life of me I can't remember the term). So when you STFU up just kee your head down she is going to interpret that as you being upset because she is.

I'd argue the base level tactic is being happy and fun regardless of what she does. When she does something that displeases you happy fun. Walk away and remove your time and attention for a while. But don't sit there and keep your head down. Most red pill men think that married guys are done for but what they don't realize is that we have a training partner. Someone we can work on our skills with little to no consequence, other than divorce but honestly, it isn't going to happen overnight and if it does you were headed that way anyhow.

I say jump right in. Little by little implement the things you learn. If they don't work....laugh an think well shit fucked that up. And get right back in there. You aren't getting fucked now so what's to lose? What can she do? Is she going to withhold sex from you? HAHAHAHAHA she already is!

Continue on in the pathetic attempts at a sex life that I've had in the past?

Yes but really have some balls. Your self-deprecating is pathetic. Let it be the last time. Women love to tease and deny. It's fucked up but they do. Even the best ones. They hamster all sorts of reasons. You need to condition her to realize there's a consequence to it.

If she walks away you were being lied to the whole time, to begin with so what's the problem?

These tools are here to get your life in order to get your head space right. So that no matter what happens you can face it on your feet like a man. Then move on

[–]SeamusAwl2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Solipsistic is the word you were looking for. They see things through the filter of themselves.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Fuck. Solipsism

Right. Thanks.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

instead of thanks, do the work, hit the gym, and actually contribute.

all the thanks anyone needs

[–]tacko2761 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Blue pill professor pod casts are a great place to start If you want good examples of gratuitous miss uses of red pill theory/info and Rambo bull shit, read my posts. Learn form my and other guys mistakes rp does work. But it is work and I'm finding the work never really ends Lift Read the side bar Lift more
Read more And keep us posted

[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Good news for you is that this will probably come really easy for you. Seems like you are holding yourself accountable, you're fit,, and have your shit together. Read your heart out but most importantly apply what you read in real life to you, your wife and other women.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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