707,479 posts

Whose woman is this?

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May 16, 2017
34 upvotes

I have been lurking the past few weeks because washing my eyes with bleach was not an option. A little over a month ago, after a few months of my husband acting all weird, I discovered he was following theredpill and boy was I in for a rollercoaster.

Do NOT go rambo. If your woman notices anything within a couple months besides you dressing better and working out then you are doing it wrong.

We had our wonderful times, our low times but we were on track again. I loved him so much- we have 3 beautiful children, a roof, a great life, health, friendships.... I used to feel safe in his arms, loved- Not anymore.

Let that sink in. The same relationship that had this man living a quite life of desperation, that drove him to google "how to make my wife love me again" or some shit at 1AM, was just fine for this woman. No mention of if "being off track" was her emotional affair or cheating.

About five months ago something changed. I couldn't pinpoint exactly what. I started really hating going back home, I felt accosted for sex all the time, I felt miserable all around.

Sounds like this guy didn't have enough fucks to give about this relationship to do MRP right. All this guy wanted was for his wife to fuck him, but now she's talking about divorce based on what websites you visit. You are supposed to be fun and benevolent. I guess we need The Family Alpha around more to talk about being a good captain.

If this man's greatest crime is coming on to his wife every day when she wasn't attracted to him then this sucks bro, I'm sorry. But if you tried to quick-fix her instead of yourself then this is exactly what we warn everyone about.

One time , I had the flu and declined sex- he was upset and accused me of "always being sick, never wanting sex"(we have sex at least once a week- sometimes more- but always at least once).

I can feel this guy's butthurt from here. Alternatively, she is "sick" 5 days a week and we are seeing her post-rationalization.

I noticed him flirting with a friend of ours. Maybe i deserved it- maybe i was a horrible human being, a lousy spouse.

I mean, your husband hates his life and feels unloved and will try anything to make it better and stay married to you, but all you want is validation that you've done the best you can and want therapy and a divorce.

Trying to flirt is cringy, being attractive enough that women want to talk to you and fun and engaging conversations are expected to just spring up around you is not. This guy sounds like he skipped to Level 8 in a couple months. Level 8 is right before you tell her you need to have sex to stay in this relationship.

I started to think perhaps he would be happy if i wasn't in the picture- even my kids would be happier. I got treated like a child- I was even told He didn't trust me making good food choices so grocery shopping was his responsibility. I was told I was fat- need a beach body!

She loved him sooo much, but is ready to divorce because he wants to grocery shop for the house and have an attractive wife who respects him and is attracted to him. Maybe he went rambo, maybe he sucked at escalating and initiating, maybe he was an insufferable asshole, but maybe just the simple fact of coming onto his wife every day was enough to push this unattracted woman over the edge.

All this time, I had no idea what was going on. Then I came across his history- yes I was snooping. I saw all these posts about redpill/marriedredpill. WTF. The more I read, the angrier I became. I can't look at him in the eye anymore. What makes a human being THINK they have the right to manipulate another human being? What did I do to deserve the anxiety, the depression he created? Why- if you supposedly love someone- do you do this?

This is what a hamster sounds like when you fuck up.

This was all a month ago- I have no idea if he has stopped reading it or not- he says he has. He told Me it was a support group for men- nothing else. I go from moments of anger to moments of sadness. I'm probably going to get out of this relationship and it will destroy my kids- I just can't phantom why he would this to me. All I can think of is about the poor women who are trapped in a relationship with some lunatic who thinks it's ok to play with someone's emotions. I can leave because I have a strong support system. i don't think I will ever be able to trust another relationship. I am writing in this forum because I want to reach out to others and see if anyone has gone through this. How did you get over it? How did you rebuild your confidence? How did you rebuild the ability to trust others? Peeps- I'm broken. Thank you for reading.

I'm sure she thought her husband might read this to dread the fuck out of him. Live for her or get left bro. I would like to think that if I were discovered I could own everything I've said here and hold frame and get on with my life with or without her, but maybe I would fold too. Trump gets to grab women by the pussy and be president. You visit a sub where the most common advice is to lift and don't be butthurt and you're done.

I don't really want to know whose woman this is...but it could be any of ours if we go rambo and fuck this up guys.

Some lessons:

  • Keep fight club a secret, the penalty for not "just getting it" is disgust and hatred.
  • Step 1! Lift! Be attractive, don't be unattractive
  • Do not ever be butthurt
  • Do not talk about sex
  • You have to like you wife
  • Work up the levels of dread slowly, do not jump around

In regards to this man personally, I'm sorry she isn't attracted to you man. The fact that she is this angry and has all these emotions means you potentially DO have a chance if you want this to work. Maybe she's a SAHM and enjoys the lifestyle, or whatever, maybe she "loves you but is not in love with you." It is going to be the long normal MRP ride though. Becoming attractive, being valuable, being benevolent, being a good captain, erasing the scoreboard, build a frame and a life she wants to live in. She CAN give you the relationship that you want, but she has to want to, and she will only want to if she is attracted to you because you have fixed yourself, not her.


Post Information
Title Whose woman is this?
Author anythinginc
Upvotes 34
Comments 86
Date 16 May 2017 06:34 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/206145
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/6bjbsd/whose_woman_is_this/
Similar Posts

Red Pill terms found in post:
butthurtalphadread gameframehamstercheatingliftthe red pill
Comments

[–][deleted] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children) | Copy

Blue pill lurkers:

Rule 0. You don't get to be a cunt, and think you're welcome to discuss matters with men that concern them. Stay in your shitbox

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm15 points16 points  (4 children) | Copy

To those who might be confused, Anything pulled this from the bluepill sub. The post could be fabricated nonsense, but it's still a good learning tool since everything Anything says is accurate.

If your wife is posting or thinking that type of shit, you have missed the entire point of this place.

THE.

ENTIRE.

FUCKING.

POINT.

So you better back the truck up and really look at what you're doing. Everyone watching your journey from the outside should simply see a man starting to take better care of himself, being more charasmatic, and working to be a better leader. No where in there does that mean ACTIVELY putting anyone else down. Over time those around you either join you on your new fun filled ride of life or fall to the wayside.

[–]anythingincRed Beret[S] 7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy

Everyone watching your journey from the outside should simply see a man starting to take better care of himself, being more charismatic, and working to be a better leader.

Thank you very much for making that super concise and easy to remember.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

I saw that post on the BP sub the other day. Was thinking of doing a post like yours to address it too. You beat me to it and was more detailed than mine would have been.

Really, if guys are executing this shit the way it's supposed to be done, even the most Feminist of Feminists should find you somewhat charming. Hell, I go over to BP and fuck around just to see what I can pull off for fun... Hi wiggliecharlie, I miss you...kisses.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Hi wiggliecharlie, I miss you...kisses.

You are a masochist.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nah, she may hate everything we say but she is without a doubt witty. Internet sparing with her is like one of those dance fights between two rival gangs during a play that has no real consequences...it's just funny.

[–]RPAlternate42Red Beret4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

Fake garbage.

This woman apparently doesn't know what red pill, but after browsing for a bit, had the wherewithal to know what the blue pill subreddit was and then post this in there?

It took me a few days to digest what I was reading in TRP when I first started... the information was there, but it wasn't quite contextualized due to the jargon used. Even then, after a few days, I didn't know there was a blue pill sub too.

I call take story. It hits too many talking points for red pill discussion and is formatted like thought was put into it. A first timer in there with emotions on high would write it as a stream of consciousness.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

As long as a man is in his frame, rambo or not, who can judge his actions.

[–]WisdomTangoFoxtrot2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

He didn't trust me making good food choices so grocery shopping was his responsibility. I was told I was fat- need a beach body!

I vaguely recall seeing this line of thought in an OYS a few weeks back.

Sounds like "autistic rambo sprinkle some alpha on it" accountability time for someone.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

or you know " Honey, I love you but you could loose some weight, how about I shop for a bit and see how that goes. I want you to feel sexy in a bikini this summer"

[–]WesternhagenWinner3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy

Post on bluepill sub stinks of troll. Suspect some BluePill guy wrote it, pretending to be a woman, in order to warn other men away from the eeeeevil RedPill.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Could be, but there's dudes out there pulling this nonsense in the name of being MRP-Alpha. So it's a good learning tool either way.

[–]OverloadedInbox points points [recovered] | Copy

One of my responses to that thread was removed by the mods with no communication on their part. I knew it was coming. They do it whenever someone suggests that it's possible to have a relationship with someone who has ever been involved in the red pill. They let it slide, at first, but pointing out that she might have been a troll was apparently going too far. Maybe the troll is one of their mods, looking to redirect the discussion away from the incessant Robert Fisher and incel threads.
 
This crab is taking a break from the bucket. Satire is entertaining, mocking people who say stupid shit is fun, but they sometimes take shit too far.

[–]PM_ME_YOUR_FRAME points points [recovered] | Copy

Ok, so yeah, it could be a giant conspiracy. Let me offer a slightly different explanation. Let's set the scene. Your daughter comes to you distraught:

Daughter: My husband is abusing me. I don't know what to do. Help.

You: You're a liar.

You: You're abusive.

You: You probably deserve it.

You: The possibilities are endless.

It's just not the right place or time to be having that conversation.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Back to your shithole... Men are working here

[–]anythingincRed Beret[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

My husband is abusing me unhappy with the amount of sex we're having to the point it is making him bitter, commented on my weight, and is reading the red pill.

No need to strawman up some scenario, the poster lays it out pretty clear.

[–]BobbyPeru3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I don't know. Could be just her hamster looking for a rationalization. Maybe she checked out months ago and finding out his MRP involvement was just the excuse. Just saying, can't always assume the guy went Rambo, and you can't assume she's telling the real story

All your bulletpoints are solid though

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

Lol, sprinkle a little alpha in life, internalize nothing, do it all 'for her'

Serves this idiot right. This was a giant covert contract, and he had his head so far up her ass, that there wasn't room for a dick.

[–]drty_prRed Beret2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy

I often wonder what my wife would think if she found my account. The only thing that should bother her is that I'm going to fuck someone else if she doesn't come around in "x" amount of time. Then again, should that really surprise her?

I'd say if she was mad at me upon discovery, the narrative she would support would be of disdain, because it's MRP that's making her feel this way. Likewise, if she was happy.

[–]2gunsgetsome3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

The only thing that should bother her is that I'm going to fuck someone else if she doesn't come around in "x" amount of time.

It SHOULD bother her. But that shouldn't bother YOU.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy

Then again, should that really surprise her?

is this a question or a statement?

[–]drty_prRed Beret0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Rhetorical

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

And there is the problem, and why she isn't buying it

[–]drty_prRed Beret0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Elaborate

[–]PersaeusRed Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

given your frustration expressed in last several OYS, she isn't buying it. there are really only two possible reasons: she does not care or she does not know your standing on the precipice of some strange pussy. my guess is she does not know; and you are underestimating her solipsism/hamster. as W&S said the other day, sometimes you have to shatter her perception of the old you for her to see the new you.

[–]drty_prRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Agreed. I'm having a hard time shattering the perception. IDGAF has always been my default setting, leaving tk do my own shit is something I've mostly done as well. The only thing I can think of is to just become a total piece of shit. That's not really being congruent to what I want to be though.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Total POS? Wrong , think harder

[–]weakandsensitive1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

For me, it goes something like "hey. want to read what I'm writing?" "stop being mean to people on the internet."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (61 children) | Copy

If your woman notices anything within a couple months besides you dressing better and working out then you are doing it wrong.

Sidebar says:

Dread Level 1: Learn to recognize and start passing Shit Tests.

Dread Level 2: Develop an action plan to improve the major areas of your life.

Dread Level 3: Begin to build a life apart from your wife.

Dread Level 4: Begin conditioning your availability to your wife with her treatment of you.

Dread Level 5: Upgrade your clothes and start dressing ‘up’ more of the time.

[–]anythingincRed Beret[S] 3 points4 points  (60 children) | Copy

First, BPP is the ninth link on the sidebar and one of twenty in the wiki, it is part of MRP, but not the entirety of MRP.

I'm not sure if this is meant to be a rebuttal or not so I'm just going to ask at what point should your wife have noticed, and what should she have commented on?

According to many successful field reports we have here the first "what is going on" comments are usually along the lines of:

  • You've been working out a lot recently
  • You're looking better/good
  • You've been more responsible lately
  • I appreciate X/Y/X
  • You're an asshole (the kind where she fucks you later that night, not the kind where she sleeps in a different room for a week)

And that is if they say anything, usually at some point during a man's improvement they just start acting more attracted and deferring more. The man either keeps it up or backslides, either way he knows what to do now and we likely never hear from him again. There is also the large contingent of men where this is too little too late or there is an emotional affair, cheating, or psychological issues involved.

I appreciate your perspective so I want to ask if you feel the charges of "gaslighting," "manipulation," and "abuse" are warranted. The only outrage I can conceivably generate is just that many men that come here are sad and broken and are only to blame because they are not already decent self-actualized men in a healthy sexual relationship, somebody is having to tell them how. Where I try to have compassion, for some people this inspires scorn, derision, hatred, "satire' etc...

I wonder if Deadbedrooms doesn't get this hate, because they are just complaining losers not really trying to change their lot in life, once somebody tries to step up though they become fair game. One big shit test and being happy is the only passing grade.

I understand the hate for dread/BPP, it is "manipulation" I guess...instead of the man actually getting ready to divorce her and do better and losing disinterest in her and then the woman either gets to work to keep him or leave...the man is only "pretending." I guess when the man is genuinely tired of her shit to the extent he is ready to blow up his family it is okay.

Like this recent guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/6bd1dz/hysterical_bonding/

He is just a cheating asshole whose wife can forgive him if she wants. Read some BPP though and now you are abusive/manipulative/gaslighting and deserve to be divorced and never see your kids again. To be fair we tell people they have to accept that divorce has to be an option.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (36 children) | Copy

Dread Levels have become core lexicon here.

Commonly parroted: "What's your Dread Level?" when people forget to preemptively prattle DL numbers into their please-do-or-don't-call-me-faggot MRPcode gobbledygook.

And it's in the 101 section and actually titled "Saving a low sex marriage".

SAVING. A. MARRIAGE.

For fuck's sake.

And you're going to claim it's just some minor obscure thing buried deep in the sidebar that the husbands-under-siege you care about aren't going to grab?

Please.

It's fine to sit back and squawk "Don't eat paint! Don't eat paint!" but maybe let's try Owning Our Shit for once?

We're telling people to eat paint.

From what I can tell everyone who actually follows 12SOD ends up divorced or not wanting to fuck their wives. The sequencing of steps doesn't even make sense and has never been explained.

At what point do we declare 12SOD a failed praxis and move on?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'll agree that dread as an one size fits all solution does not work. And that active dread usually comes off as try-hard. But it's a framework that works for a lot of men, especially if all they want is sex.

I think the general consensus among most of MRP is that passive dread is usually very effective in generating attraction from women. Inadvertent active dread, in the form of other women showing attraction to you, is also very effective. But as an algorithm (if step A doesn't work, go to step B) it's not very useful.

We'd be well served by leaning into the discomfort that our wives give us. Instead of withdrawing and running away (punishing them) we sit and listen and engage them. And if they're still bitchy, we leave and do something more fun. In my opinion, we don't do a good job of teaching men how not to Rambo. It's easier to withdraw than it is to talk to a sexless bitchy wife.

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy

Hmmm...

You've given me something to seriously think about. I've been around long enough to be familiar with the source materials for the concept of "dread," and have a copy of BPP's book. I still refer to "active" and "passive" categories, and am happy with my marriage without having implemented "active" dread.

Your question boils down to whether a reasonable compendium of thought is superior to its less rigid source material. I honestly don't know.

And yes, it's obvious that a "how to" guide is directing behavior and is most certainly telling men to eat dread flavored paint.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy

Don't know what u/Pikadildo does for a living, but if I needed a lock picked, a fail-safe opened, a logical expression checked for accuracy, or my plans to rob Fort Knox reviewed, I would get him. Often I find myself agreeing with him. But not always willingly.

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

That's why I step away and assess independently, because he could show me a perpetual motion machine design, and I might think it plausible.

However, on things subjective, organic, subtle, or grey in practice, he starts to doubt his own position.

He's trying to logically reconcile concepts of human frailty, cupidity, and stupidity. Answers that don't deserve to be found.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Well put man. Good description of my hesitations on his posts, that I could not recognize, much less articulate.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

However, on things subjective, organic, subtle, or grey in practice, he starts to doubt his own position.

projecting irrational confidence aside, one should always doubt his own position in these matters ( . . . the scientist/engineer in me)

He's trying to logically reconcile concepts of human frailty, cupidity, and stupidity. Answers that don't deserve to be found.

not so much deserve, but yeah there is no answer to stupidity. that being said, I think the incongruence he points out is worth thinking about.

it works best if the frog doesn't know the water is getting hotter.

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

So what am I, the water or the frog?

I don't speak ill of mods in general, but the subject matter of this discussion is the most recent and most derivative of any recommended reads.

I need to genuinely look at whether simplification has crafted better Rambos.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Your the water

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Let them eat paint. If they wouldnt fuck this up, it would be something else. Better to get it over with quickly

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Guarantee some sort of QA testing for programmers.

Has the right mix of aspie, OCD, and love of breaking things

[–]anythingincRed Beret[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I opened every thread on the first page of MRP and searched for "dread."

  • In only ONE comment did someone suggest the 12 Levels of Dread.
  • The concept of a woman "dreading to lose" you was mentioned several (3) other times.
  • I am the only person to say "12 levels of dread"... in reference to a poster who has no MRP knowledge and just went and cheated on his wife. It is actually the link in my above comment.

Did the same thing here at askMRP.

And you're going to claim it's just some minor obscure thing buried deep in the sidebar

I spoke literally, on MRP, it is the ninth link on the recommended reading list. When you click on the wiki/index link, the foundational 12 Levels post is link twenty among many. I think it needs to be somewhere, and where it is is just fine. I don't know what the 9th book of the New Testament is, it is certainly not Gospel though, but you still should at least read the free cliffnotes if you are a "Christian."

but the subject matter of this discussion is the most recent and most derivative of any recommended reads.

We're a couple a years old, our foundational texts are an assemblage of hundreds of comments and blog posts. BPP was the first (I know of) to really try to sit down and make a synthesis and a plan out of it. Does that mean it is the ideal, or that it has to be, or still relevant if we as a community have moved beyond it? I don't know. I don't think it is worse than nothing like pikadildo might... but is something like this by u/mrprider :

https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/60dq9q/my_journey_what_i_learnt_to_do_or_what_not_to_do/

more relevant? Or do I only appreciate that because I'm autistic or something? (No, it is actually really good, it has checklists and shit)

I think that the concept of dread is required reading. So should Jackten's treatise on dread be recommended more?

https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/374wln/what_we_talk_about_when_we_talk_about_dread_13/

I feel like I link that post a hell of a lot. And along pikadildo's line of thinking, I think that comment was an explanation, and reaction to "dread" and its misuse , whether this was from chronic misapplication of the "12 levels" or not I can't comment because I wasn't here.

My synthesis was two years ago though, in the mean time, there may be new guides that I have missed. Do we not like guides?

I'm looking at the text of 12LOD from the two year old TRP post, and there isn't much to object to, and I've copied and pasted and explained and it just gets so fucking long...

And honestly, I have rationalization fatigue, as difficult as that is to believe. Jackten wrote 7000 words on it already, and I've read it and assimilated it and it was useful, and it didn't blow up my cohabiting LTR, but I'm tired of explaining it. I know 12 Levels and dread are mocked the most at TBP and called manipulative, I know it could be reworked a little, I know cheating is bad mkay, I know when you are awesome and attractive the conversations with other awesome attractive people just happen and you don't have to do anything cringy. I know leaving PUA books around the house is silly.

I wish I had something that didn't require explanation or defense or holding every detractor's hand while I lead them though the thought processes required to make every step irrefutable and mesh with the moral code of everyone who says "dread is bad, 12 levels are bad," and I CAN, but I want something where it is not required. The thing is, by virtue of being affiliated with TRP everything is up for scrutiny and derision by default. As pikadildo and I have discussed before, something really close is "Divorce Busting," MRP, without the RP, safe, bland, self-defensible. Personally I think the mrprider and jackten posts are safe too, or have they just never had the scrutiny, or just didn't reach far enough to draw it?

But when information is mocked and intensely, negatively scrutinized, is it because it bad, or because it there is some ugly truth (hypergamy, dread, TRP, etc) some don't like? When it comes to information, one should usually err on the side that INCREASES the amount of information available. Something isn't bad just because I'm fatigued. I'm fucking tired of evo/theo debates too. I'm not ready to say the 12 Levels or "dread" are vestigial, because it certainly fills a void, and I think jackten massaged it, but I'm also surprised we are even discussing it, so is this a zeitgeist and where does it go?

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

I want to walk through this because maybe you missed the point I'm trying to make. It's about the suitability of the 12SOD process to achieve the outcomes you've identified.

If your woman notices anything within a couple months besides you dressing better and working out then you are doing it wrong.

This is what we've defined as the desired outcome (and I agree with it). Having defined an outcome the obvious question is "how do we achieve this outcome?". The next obvious question is "does our advice lead to this outcome?"

I will add that IMHO it's extremely naive to think that your wife won't notice that your inner workings are changing. People who spend any significant time together naturally learn to read and understand each other's motivations very well. That's not a bad thing, it's what social animals do. We all have desires and work to achieve them. This is natural and normal and fosters cooperation and mutual benefit. Pathologies include Nice Guy behavior. I also don't think it's one size fits all.

Anyway back to my point. There's a question about whether Dread Game should be a thing. There's a MMSL blog post that tries to draw the distinction between "Dread Game" and "Reality Game" and if we get rid of the edgyness what most people are talking about in MRP as necessary is "Reality Game". That other "Dread Game" stuff is PUA parlor tricks which have limited use in an LTR.

Dread Level 1: Learn to recognize and start passing Shit Tests.

To be fair, working out is included as a sort of afterthought in the description of this step but the emphasis is clearly on engaging your wife to pass shit tests. This is change in behavior is obviously something she would notice that is outside the scope of the outcome.

☑ expect wife to notice working out
☐ expect wife to notice dressing better
☑ expect wife to notice something else

Dread Level 2: Develop an action plan to improve the major areas of your life.

☑ expect wife to notice working out
☐ expect wife to notice dressing better
☐ expect wife to notice something else

Dread Level 3: Begin to build a life apart from your wife.

☑ expect wife to notice working out
☐ expect wife to notice dressing better
☑ expect wife to notice something else

Dread Level 4: Begin conditioning your availability to your wife with her treatment of you.

☑ expect wife to notice working out
☐ expect wife to notice dressing better
☑ expect wife to notice something else

Dread Level 5: Upgrade your clothes and start dressing ‘up’ more of the time.

☑ expect wife to notice working out
☑ expect wife to notice dressing better
☐ expect wife to notice something else

It isn't until step 5 that your outcomes are achieved and she'll certainly have noticed changes in relationship dynamics way before then. So the question wasn't "is dread useful" it's does 12SOD achieve the outcomes. It's pretty obvious it does not.

Now getting into the rest of the discussion about dread. I think 12SOD is mixing up a lot of separate axes inappropriately. But they are intertwined. Jack's discussion of dread is very good, but it could be cleaned up a bit if he'd reached his later clarity about the centrality of respect at that point (the seeds are there). Maybe it's time to bring Jack's phase model into the discussion in terms of evaluating the plans? It's actually about respect. Your respect for yourself. Your partner's respect for you. And not mentioned: your respect for your partner.

Even your outcomes can be recast as "if she notices anything she should respect you a little".

For most people respecting their sexual partner is extremely important for sexual desire--healthy people don't willingly fuck people they don't respect. It gets complex because respect can mean a lot of things. It could be respect for their physical attributes. It could be respect for their competence. For me, when I lose sexual interest toward my wife it's invariably when I'm focused on some aspect or behavior and have lost an overall sense of respect for her (and note: very, very carefully it's not the same thing as when she's lost respect for me, or when I've lost respect for myself). Respect is also just about the only word women and men use in common to describe desire and relationship problems.

Shit test tests are nothing more than expressions/symptoms of disrespect. Passing a shit test means gaining respect.

So is 12SOD better than nothing? I don't know. But when we're talking triage, "first do no harm" and my favorite Disney-ism "Don't just do something, stand there."

If you want to make it palatable just call it "Respect Game". The 180 is really about the "active dread" steps and a really stubborn and clueless partner who needs to be snapped back into reality.

The other point is that overall Dread is a messy complex thing, but it's been forced into the lexicon of 12SOD and language forms thought.

[–]anythingincRed Beret[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I want to point out the most pedestrian thing first: A fat or out-of-shape guy shouldn't go out and by a new wardrobe (#5) if he is committing to losing an inch of waist a month. I mean, with a marriage on the line maybe the money is justified, but not everyone has the money. So wardrobe can't be an entry-level thing for them. A slim or skinny-fat guy could go out and buy new clothes Day 1 and they might serve until his biceps or traps are stacked. So right away we have the first barrier to 1-size-fits-all.

I also agree about #1 being "pass shit tests" and the contradiction between this and "STFU." About the 3nd time Capt. Drunk-N-Spineless tries to pass a shit test she has caught a scent. This is probably why askMRP fields so many shit test questions and we have to repeat STFU so much.

But back to the 1-size dilemma, we have a lot of men who get some immediate results from passing a couple shit-tests, I think we commonly call those "newb gains;" we probably agree that for every man who snowballs this into respect and success we have more who think "if a little is good, a lot will be great" while slacking on all the other aspects, blowing shit up.

I will add that IMHO it's extremely naive to think that your wife won't notice that your inner workings are changing.

I agree that is a huge dilemma. Just by virtue of reading RP shit and "taking the pill" we expect there to be a noticeable shift in a man, while also not wanting him to become edgy enough to blow up his marriage.

12SOD...Jack's phase model...But when we're talking triage, "first do no harm" and my favorite Disney-ism "Don't just do something, stand there...The 180..."

Is this where a good community of commentators comes into play? If nothing is currently universal, then it is up to us to read the post, ask the right questions, and point the man in the right direction.

  • Pass that shit test fucker!
  • STFU and become valuable
  • Stop being a drunk captain right now
  • You skipped some levels of dread bro
  • She cheated on you and isn't showing any remorse bro, next.
  • Stop pulling Phase 1 shit when you are in Phase 2.
  • You are in the Anger Phase and it is hurting your relationship
  • You have to like your wife.

That is messy as fuck and I hate it, and the poster's success depends on the commentator's diagnosis and knowledge of all these axes and dynamics and different paradigms, having assimilated it into their own successful understanding, (like the understanding you and I are trying to nail down) and that is fucking frightening. Like you said "Dread is a messy complex thing" and so maybe that is what is keeping us dependent upon this messiness.

Maybe it's time to bring Jack's phase model into the discussion in terms of evaluating the plans?

The thing about the Jack's Phase Model is that Phase 1 - "Stop Operating in Her Frame" is still confrontational. This was back when we still had the "Main Event." Remember that? Fuck, we haven't had a "Main Event" in a year around here. Jack acknowledged many marriages might not have them, and maybe we've had some "blow ups where a man had to hold frame and was the oak" or he didn't get between her and the door when she mentioned divorce...but nobody framed it as a "Main Event." And back to doing no harm, do we want that? Low confrontation until you are a luxury product is the safest route right? It seems just as dangerous to call "Stop Operating in Her Frame" "Phase 1" as calling the first LOD "start passing shit tests."

For many marriages, increasing your SMV is pretty much all you need to do to generate that sweet, sweet, Passive Dread [respect/loss-aversion/compliance].

So a decent SMV usually gets you a decent marriage... with just some basic, un-edgy Red Pill knowledge (tease/frame/game/covert contracts/flirt/keep-her-on-her-toes/oak/captain/OI/DNGAF/Butthurt (lol that list is ridiculous, if "enjoy/own your life" could only suffice )) will almost always get a man the marriage/respect he wants with someone at least.

Then we have the guys who "I have lifted for years, always had a high SMV, own my shit, make all the money, etc...and my wife still isn't attracted to me." And that is where commenters have to start digging for reasons his wife doesn't "respect" him or why there isn't any "loss-aversion" or where he is bullshitting himself.

Maybe that is outside the scope of discussing 12LOD 1-5 though.

So the question wasn't "is dread useful" it's does 12SOD achieve the outcomes. It's pretty obvious it does not.

If it is flawed as a lasting and functional paradigm (besides the reliance upon "dread" versus "respect") is it because it relies on the reader to consume and integrate so many other things, with NMMNG to RM to Day Bang being recommended? To be fair, a preschooler has a handle on 2+2=4 after the first workbook. How do you impart "respect." Well, besides NMMNG, WISNIFG, and a thousand other books. "Respect" is ON a "a lot of separate axes," and by virtue of not being a "treatise" 12LOD falls short in that regard.

Another flaw might be the "fixing the man not the marriage" paradigm. If taking TRP or reading 12LOD is a journey of self-improvement/respect/efficacy/actualization and at the end the woman is either in your frame or she is gone and you've happily replaced her, how much deference/concern should there be? I guess that is some fundamental cognitive dissonance we all have to assimilate. Ideally, we have to improve for ourselves, but we also want our wives/children to be there too and live in our frame and have the life we want with them. And to do that our journey needs to either be initially covert, or involve concern for the woman/marriage, which partially involves being covert, which is needed because we know "Honey, I'm saving this marriage!" involves being fulfilled and masculine, not submissiveness, bargaining, and chore-play. Also keeping in mind that many men and women are flawed and not every marriage can be saved.

I'm not Tolstoy, judging by his novels, he didn't get fatigued. But, the problem is the same:

Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

How do you distill and impart some method of singular happiness and navigate the multitude of issues impeding it?

Respect yourself (includes a huge and diverse number of things) and the respect of a woman will probably follow if you are open to it.

Now we are back to Disney: Just be yourself, well, the best version of yourself you are not even aware of until you assimilate all this knowledge.

I guess that is why I always just comment on specific problems instead of trying to post something. Stoney would call this navel gazing anyway, shut up and put in some work and once you get it, it doesn't matter anymore. I'd still like something though.

There is an old saying, if you don't know the way through the mountains, and you don't have a map, follow a mule, they'll find the way. We have a bunch of damn fine mules here, and I followed some here and there, but I'm a cartophile, and I'd love to see a beautiful map that everyone could follow and they got where they needed to be safely, but maybe that is my own problem. I agree that 12LOD isn't that map, and BPP probably didn't set out to make one, maybe it's an annotated atlas or a mule to walk behind for awhile. Mules don't make maps, they do wear a trail though. Maybe someday someone will be able to look at all our trails and draw one.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Example of what I'm talking about.

(initially called you from that thread, but realized it was better to avoid mixing discussions and link from here instead)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

only because the vast majority of new guys are unfuckable by their wives.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (19 children) | Copy

Idk how you can't separate marketing from pedantry.

A sales person says "Our software is going to take care of all your problems!" Do you take them at face value?

The title of the book is what the book is selling. The actual meat to it is something far different... obviously, which you already know, because you know what the steps are.

As you also know, sometimes the best way to save something is to put a bullet in it's head, not to hold on to it until you choke it to death.

Everything else you wrote I agree with though.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (18 children) | Copy

Probably because you came here from PUA and not via DB.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (17 children) | Copy

Who better to understand the concept of not having a sniper mentality to a wife, or how she isn't special, having the same attraction triggers as everyone else?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (16 children) | Copy

You ever felt trapped in a dying marriage with kids you adore?

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

My 21 month old steps in when mommy and daddy play fight. I'd struggle to be in a marriage where the kids know we're both suffering and unhappy - that's knowing what I know now instead of blue pill fantasy, of course.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You're looking at that guy.

I won't say it fucks em up, because it's easy to bounce back. They won't look back fondly on you though.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy

My Mom was, plenty of the men I grew up watching were... I wasn't the husband, but I was the kid. Trust me, I wouldn't be here if I don't know what it can do to a man. I've seen them at their bottom, smoking crack, going to jail, the works. I even had the man in my house open up to me about this shit, after I tried to fight him at one point.

Theres a reason I dick ride /u/ex_addict_bro so much. At some point, it's healthier to accept the loss for what it is, and make yourself as great a man as you can for when the opportunity to reconnect comes up again. Frenchie always says that the largest amount of time you spend with your kids is when they are adults.

My takeaway from both their experiences is. Sometimes a man may just have to stow his feelings for a few decades while their wife runs roughshod. Not like they are given any alternatives, other than being a shitty role model of a broken man for their children...

Then, (and this will ruffle feathers) would you say it's a good father who prioritizes his 'feelings' to his kids, over giving them a role model of what a man should be? It's a hard topic to bring up, becuase men lose their fucking minds as soon as you mention this sacred cow. Very few take it on headfirst. Ex addict is the only one I've met in here who has so far. /u/sirgaetandrugas may be a close second if it comes to that, /u/Firetempered coming up a close third

[–]PersaeusRed Beret2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

largest amount of time you spend with your kids is when they are adults

much like pikadildo, I cringe every time you trot this out; because the whole point of the statement is that you have to sacrifice your own ego/desire to be their buddy when they are young in order to do the work of raising them into men that you would want to be buddies with as adults.

now I agree in some cases, such as ex_addict_bro, the relationship is so bad or the man is unable to repair himself in the presence of the wife; that the work to be done and ego to be killed is best accomplished by abandoning your kids to their mother.

this level of unfixable is rare. in most cases; the child is better off with his father in his life more not less. leaving may still be the best thing for you.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

always going to say something like this : I appreciated my father way more after about 15-16 then prior. I didnt need a bud. He didn't either. He is ego invested in my success. Not in his own ego of having a friend.

Just a thought.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Sure, in some cases. When I hear about a guy, having a quiet life of desperation, because he loves the kids, That to me sounds like one of those cases. If he goes through a MAP, becomes an actualized, strong high value man. A man with a frame, a man with a mission. That good man, and thats still not enough, whats left?

Is it a giant covert contract, where if he sprinkles alpha on his life, his wife will get out of his way and let him be a father? Is it ego investment, where he actually cares about how he feels around the kids, and not the kids well being? Is truly that he's there as the one small light of hope in an otherwise unhealthy life?

If you think of it as dismissive, I'd also cringe. It sounds like an edgy 20 year old on askTRP; telling everyone to 'next' the bitch, for every one of lifes problems.

I've never had queasiness about letting go of things in my life. Benefits of my crap childhood I guess. As such, I see huge benefit in killing ones sacred cows. If someone reads this, cringes because he goes the CAD route (and gets pleasant women from the neighbourhood to fill the void of a cold bitch untrusting wife), the Addict route (fuck it, back off, regroup, and come back better), or the martyr (suffer in silence) thats on him. I only hope he's damned sure which category he belongs to, and where his motivations are. Even suggesting what I post makes people cringe, as it should, it's not a decision to be flippantly taken, but it damned sure IS on the table.

And like you both say, if you become that masculine center, high value man, and life falls in line to keep you in their lives, then none of this matters. Most of the time, no one gets off a moving train, right? But if it doesn't, at some point, you have to learn to kill, probably the hardest ego protection in life.

In this case, I find it very useful, fully knowing most guys will cringe. Fuck, this whole place is full of cringe from most men. The only difference is degree. Some cringe, simply suggesting that you don't treat your wife as an equal. Some cringe that you think flirting with other women may just make your wife hot for you. Some cringe when you suggest that being prepared for a divorce should she cross a line is a healthy preparation. How much cringe do we get from dread? Yet we accept it wholesale, because we know it works.

Will it be more articulate, and well rounded an option, over time, with more knowledge from other men? Better be. For now, it's what we have to work with, and I sure as shit won't let a little queasiness stop me from tossing it out there as an option

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy

That sounds pretty rough and no offense but I believe you've written a few posts on the concept of ignoring advice from armchair quarterbacks.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

Always looking for the leaks in the dam eh?

I will admit, you're starting to grow on me. Like a more abrasive Jackten, with fewer words.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

not kids, but I do imagine one thing is the same.

We tend to make all kinds of excuses to make us feel better about being victims.

[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret3 points4 points  (22 children) | Copy

The man actually getting ready to divorce her and do better and losing interest in her, genuinely tired of her shit to the extent he is ready to blow up his family is me and she senses it because of my actions. Sex is out of control good and she has become completely fucking submissive to me. Problem is, I already lost interest.
 
What a weird fucking thing. She is now everything I ever expected and I'm over her... but she's everything I ever expected because I'm over her. If I hadn't been such a dumbass to begin with, I'd never be in this position. Giving it time, I have two kids... 12 months was my evaluation point. 3 to go.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

but she's everything I ever expected because I'm over her

well that is all on you; and it just is what it is. don't hate the dog for barking and being a dog.

Sex is out of control good and she has become completely fucking submissive to me. Problem is, I already lost interest.

I would think long and hard about what you really want; and make sure you're still not chasing some BP Disney fantasy. . . speaking from experience.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

This.

She acted the way she did because you weren't the man you needed to be. You put in the work and now you have exactly what you were looking for when you found trp.

Make sure you do a lot of introspection before moving on.

[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, and that's true. Not her fault. But now I am someone different and it's not just from TRP, it's from years of improvement, trial and error, pain, gain, etc. Meanwhile she is basically the same, just much more submissive and enthusiastic in bed. Just recently she started working on improving herself too which is good. Attending therapy and reading self-improvement books.

[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I don't blame her, not sure if it came across that way but yeah I agree with your points

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

I've noticed a cycle with my wife-- 1 or 2 months of sweet and fun, followed by a couple weeks of utter chaos. In the low times, I'm not interested in her.

It could be that you were a low value shithead and you married the best that you had available, and she was never a quality woman. Or it could be that you actually like her and there's going to be undulations in your attraction to her

[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Could be. I wouldn't say I don't like her. We get along great. She works hard for me. What I would say is I got married for the Disney fantasy and now that I realize it doesn't exist, I've lost interest in spending my life tending to an emotionally broken woman. Captain Saveaho, trying to be her emotional tampon. So, I stopped. I'm giving it time though, she just recently started trying to improve herself.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Shit, if you've got a lady that works hard for you then you're doing well.

[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'm killing it lol. I don't post much here about my successes.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy

This is the thing. Cardinal rule of relationships

[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret2 points3 points  (12 children) | Copy

Right. But then you have to question the purpose. Does she add value to your life, etc. Saying all that is true. Yes, I have a good woman. I've effectively "won" MRP (can always lose it if you don't maintain but that's just basic SMV, you're gonna lose sex if you let yourself go whether married or not) sure. I have the power in my relationship. For what purpose? Sex? Sex is cheap. 2 in the kitty. Easy getting numbers. Know I can F-close a rando with daygame same day. So what is the purpose? Convenience possibly. But that rubs me the wrong way. It's great she does my laundry, cooks me dinner, cleans my house, handles things I need handled, sucks my dick, rubs my back, etc. I could get that from others for a fraction of the price. Is it the relationship itself? No, I have way more fun with my buddies. I don't need a friend in her.
 
So, is it fear? Fear of divorce rape, definitely. Fear of my children being raised with separated parents, definitely. Those are two things I did (marriage and kids) before being red-pilled. So am I being true to myself now by staying with this woman knowing I never would have gotten married if I had found this 6 years ago? Or is it ownership to stay? Owning your past decisions. Or is ownership being able to say hey, I fucked up, this ain't for me. Later. Depending on the man and the situation, it could be either.
 
These are the things I think about in regards to my marriage (not all the time). Not, why won't my wife fuck me and why did she say I have attachment issues and bla, bla. I wanted to take her to X and she wanted to go to Y wahhh. Fuck that. All that shit is retarded. It's existentialism man. That's what it's all about. If you can filter out all the nonsense, all the noise from other people, school, media, etc. it all comes down to you. You are your reality. You create your reality. I didn't expect my MAP to take me here. I wanted to fix my relationship. Now, I realize, it's unnecessary.
 
I could go on but I gotta take a shit and eat some Chipotle. Then prob take another shit.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy

welcome to advanced class. This is where more contribution would be great. Like sorcerer says, get your philisophical house in order.

It's the point where I would love to hear more naval gazing by guys who have made it. Instead of seeing newbies think they can jump the line, and start with naval gazing instead of building a frame and getting their dick wet

[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy

Yeah man... I want to contribute but at the same time I haven't decided if I'm staying married so I don't want to fraudulently post about how to be MRP. Also, I do things, but you're right, I don't have a philosophy. It's just me. Not sure how to qualify it in a way that would relate to everyone and I'm not into recycling information. Could use some pointers.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

Theres plenty of divorced guys in here. IF /u/ex_addict_bro can be full of value, I'm sure you can too.

[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

True. It's prob time. Will think on this.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

I do think it was a mistake to call this place married red pill. But it was the best way to call an 'adult red pill' without causing more problems than it solves.

From what I remember, that was /u/isolos whole reason for this place, to avoid edgy 20 somethings

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

This is the situation where I like to "we're the best at lying to ourselves".

Are you happy that she is in your life? Make a decision and go with it. Don't fix what ain't broken. Change it up when you need to.

[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Haha yep. But decisions don't have to be made immediately in black and white. There's an evaluation phase that is variable. I get your point though.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The sad part of all this post is rambo just can't own his shit. OYS. Got to look in the mirror and just be honest.

[–]ex_addict_broRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

emotional affair

With Santa Claus. Endorsed contributor please.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

All I can think of is about the poor women who are trapped in a relationship with some lunatic who thinks it's ok to play with someone's emotions.

The irony. It burns.

Becoming attractive, being valuable, being benevolent, being a good captain, erasing the scoreboard, build a frame and a life she wants you want to live in, and she can come along if she wants to in the life YOU built for YOU.

Fixed it for you.



You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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