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Boundry question

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prarrott
January 5, 2017
8 upvotes
askMRP

Another beautiful interaction with my lovely wife I'd like some feedack on.

6:00pm

HER: Hey I turned in some of the babies clothes at a store and I have to return today to recieve what they will give for them (we previously agreed she can keep this money) They close at 8pm. Will you take care of the baby (in addition to my normal dities feeding, bathing, etc the older 2)

ME: I can do that but it won't be until 7:20pm after I finish feeding and bathing the others (as youve heard previously, she's given me weeks of hard no's, so I'm not in a particularly supplicating mood).

H: That wont give me enough time

M: You should have plenty of time to get there by 8, but if you feel that way you can take the baby with you

H: I am just going to go anyway. You do whatever you want.

M: Your responsibility is our children (she is a SAHM), this is how you provide value to the family. You're abandoning your responsibility. I told you the conditions under which I would help

H: That's fine. I'll take the baby, but whenever you want to go do something or hang out with your friends you're not allowed. Thats not a part of your work, your responsibility

M: STFU

H: slamming the door on the way out, yelling Next time you want to do something, you're not allowed. I'll remember this

She's gone now, in a rage. Advice going forward?

ETA I just texted her "Can you pick up some pullups for 3 year old while you are out"


Post Information
Title Boundry question
Author prarrott
Upvotes 8
Comments 97
Date 05 January 2017 12:13 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/206694
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/5m2xb6/boundry_question/
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[–]PurpleVeteranRed Beret11 points12 points  (4 children) | Copy

Passive aggressive behavior, unenforceable boundaries, using the children as pawns. At what point do you think you are gonna win here, that she's going to give in to your obvious charisma?

Seriously, this is a rolling shit storm and you are both fully dug in. I'm failing to see (a) why either of you should be together, (b) how this environment is good at all for the kids, (c) what your ultimate plan is. Unless you take a long hard look at how you are acting, how you expect anyone to respect you, and actually step up as a leader and not just another combatant, this marriage is just gonna keep rolling down the hill until it hits a tree.

Step 1: Just do what needs to be done, without any drama.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy

I get it, my relationship sucks. I sucked and I come here to help change that. I see where you flamed me based on past posts, but can you offer some specific feedback on how I derailed here?

But to answer your questions, we are still married because of the kids and I am only 4 months into RP, with a young child. I'm sure its not the best environment for the children, but are you willing to say another option is clearly superior? I wish I could just waive the wand and make myself into an exceptional man and leader, too.

I thought I was handling step one by taking both kids out of the house on an adventure as soon as I got home to give my wife some time alone. She could have gone then too, but she didnt tell me about this until I got home. I thought I was doing step 1 by handling everything else with the older kids for the rest of the night so she can focus on the baby. I was even willing to do her part for a while, but on my terms. I calmly communicated that. I'm failing to see where I created drama. Can you be more specific?

[–]PurpleVeteranRed Beret13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy

First, table my Step 1 above... I was running late, and posted what I had without editing.

I want to give you advice, but you are still not owning your problems. You come back every few days with another fight to dissect, because both of you keep reviving and escalating this conflict. And I get it, she's being a bitch and you want to show her that you are alpha, that you can lead, and that you deserve respect. But you are going at it by trying to fix everything... her, the kids, the house, the sex... but you still have absolutely zero frame.

And when I say "frame", I don't mean being right or being the boss. The first part of frame is disengaging from emotional responses: (a) not letting her emotions control the situation, (b) not letting your emotions control the situation, and (c) not using "calm" language to set boundaries or score points (aka, passive aggressive) while emotions are running high. The second part is demonstrating that you are the master of the situation. Not saying it, or arguing with her about it, or even boasting about it when it's done. This is what we talk about when we say OI and DNGAF. It's about taking the good and bad in stride, whether it's a set back by circumstance or just some drama that she's invented.

You say you are 4 months into RP. How much of that has been this rambo character? Where you beta before this, or do these arguments predate the pill? Because, instead of gradually improving (ie, 1 month per year), you have been digging yourself deeper. And even when you go a few days or a week of good behavior, you get sucked back into her frame -- because she knows that it's all an act. Eventually you DEER or try to score points, which confirms her mental image, and you're back at square one.

I will tell you, frankly, that I'm almost certain that your marriage is too far gone to save. I am not convinced that you can separate your emotions and scoreboard from the day-to-day interactions with your wife. Even your 30 day plan is heavy with dread and passive aggressive plays, and nothing that's positive to your relationship as a husband or father. And while dread is an MRP staple, it only works if she's getting value from you and is interested in keeping your affections. Neither of you seems to be interested in burying the hatchet, so there is basically no chance of a fresh start.

So, you're 2 weeks into your 30 day plan. How is that coming? In addition to those goals, what are you doing to add value to her life? Not just household maintenance, which in her mind are just keeping the shit to shoe level, but actually making her life easier? Because the first step to getting rid of the scoreboard that she's keeping, is getting rid of yours.

See, leadership is not about getting your way. It's modeling the behavior you want, setting expectations, and giving your troops what the need to meet them. Respect is not given by demanding or negotiating it, but by giving it first. Showing her that you have the qualities that deserve respect. And finally, frame is something that you can impose on her (through dread), but works so much better when she looks at the life and leadership you offer, and wants to be part of it.

And you will be fighting this battle uphill. You have months of bad behavior to erase from her mind. Each time you lose your temper, each time you tell her what to do, and each time you lecture her on being a good mother or wife, you reset any gains you've made. You can't just announce "I'm going out" after you fought 3 rounds about her errands last week.

If I were to suggest goals for you, they would be:

   0. Kill your ego. Stop worrying about how she treats you, and focus on your own shit.

  1. Stop trying to win the argument or get in the last word. Practice OI and DNGAF.
  2. Stop trying to engage or suffer her emotions. "Honey, let's not argue about this".
  3. Acknowledge when you mess up, without DEERing or STFU. "You're probably right, I could do better."
  4. Stop looking for approval when you do something right, or validation when your wife does something wrong.
  5. Stop telling her what she can or should do. The only thing you can control are your actions and attitude.
  6. Become a positive influence in your life, demonstrate that you are the prize, and be a role model for your kids.

Note that none of these preclude you from pursuing other elements of the MRP toolbox (lifting, dread). Finally, you should seriously consider researching what is involved if this marriage goes south, and you need (or are given) divorce papers. Even if you think it's a remote chance, just spend an hour with a lawyer. You really do not want to get caught flat-footed and see your life torn apart by someone with a laundry list of transgressions and past mistakes to use against you.

Edit: Added #0. Thanks /u/GargantuaBlarg29

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm failing to see where I created drama. Can you be more specific?

OK.

(in addition to my normal duties feeding, bathing, etc the older 2)

DEERing to us about how hard you're already working for your family. As if there aren't ten million single parents out there every night doing all of this and more.

but it won't be until 7:20pm after I finish feeding and bathing the others

DEERing to her about OMG how hard you're already working for the family. You just HAD to slip this in there, didn't you? You just couldn't bear to pass up this little opportunity to either

  • ask mommy to give you a micropoint for taking care of your own damn kids

or

  • get in a passive-aggressive expression of your resentment that she's not honoring your covert contract that your efforts with the kids should be rewarded by her with sex and respect.

You should have plenty of time to get there by 8

Arguing with her to defend and justify your boundary. You're telling yourself and us that you said this to try help her solve her problem, but we and she immediately see right through this; this is a mini-DEER because you're uncomfortable with owning your "boundary." Don't try to bullshit us; more importantly, don't bullshit yourself.

H: I am just going to go anyway.

It's OVER. Decision made; logistics settled. You made your decision, you stuck with it (albeit with too much passive-aggressive posturing and DEERing) and got the outcome you wanted. It's DONE, DONE, DONE.

You do whatever you want.

But because she's frustrated at that moment and passive-aggressive in general, she added this passive-aggressive little dig implying that you're just goofing off while she does all the work. Look, you "won" this one; now is the time to be magnanimous and allow her this little expression of her frustration. It's OVER. But wait, it's NOT over, because you took the fucking bait and launched into an emotionally charged passive-aggressive argument about relative responsibilities exactly when she had accepted your decision and was stepping up. Why, for fuck's sake, WHY? Why NOW? (Facepalm.) You're actually shit-testing her after she complies with you. WHO IS THE WOMAN IN THIS RELATIONSHIP?

Faggot.

Edit

Another beautiful interaction with my lovely wife

Passive-aggressive sarcastic wording. You chose this woman and married her. If she's a "lovely wife" rather than a lovely wife, and your interactions with her are "beautiful" rather than beautiful, you created this failure and it's yours to own. Yet you preface this post with a veiled passive-aggressive plea for us to blame the bitch rather than you. Again, no ownership; OP is more invested in being a victim than a leader who owns the responsibility required to lead.

ETA I just texted her "Can you pick up some pullups for 3 year old while you are out"

More gleeful passive-aggressive shit-testing of your wife while she's complying with your decision. Great point-scoring, Mangina! This'll really teach her that accepting your decisions makes her life better.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

can you offer some specific feedback on how I derailed here?

He answered you with his first paragraph:

Passive aggressive behavior, unenforceable boundaries, using the children as pawns. At what point do you think you are gonna win here, that she's going to give in to your obvious charisma?

If you cannot realize the truth of what he told you then nobody can help you. Only when you realize it can you accept any "advice."

[–]screechhaterRed Beret13 points14 points  (6 children) | Copy

" I was even willing to do her part for a while, but on my terms"

No Terms. You are a father, handle all the kids. No matter how much of a disaster it might be

"M: Your responsibility is our children (she is a SAHM), this is how you provide value to the family. You're abandoning your responsibility. I told you the conditions under which I would help"

Huge mother fucking mistake DEER. Childish and covert/overt contractual obligatory bullshit. Period

I have three kids, I understand, but the hard no's are gonna keep coming until you are the whole package...... she needs to be able to leave and get a break. Period

You, sir, will be most attractive when you state, "Go I got it".........(And, Stoically/confidently exhibit your attitude of I can handle all this).........

1- erase this 6pm exchange from memory and don't dwell

2- no talking about fight club, strategy or who's obligagatory responsibility is who's

3- stoically exhibit confidence, the baby will cling to you and wife will feel vibes

4- get out of her frame, this is your life

5- hard no's - who gives 10 fucks...... go read

6- lift

7- let her get some sleep

8- date without kids ASAP

[–]black_second_coming5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy

You, sir, will be most attractive when you state, "Go I got it".........(And, Stoically/confidently exhibit your attitude of I can handle all this).........

This is what works here. As soon as I started replying this way, she became giddy and touchy-feely again.

When it comes to shit around the house and the kids, JUST FUCKING DO IT. After a few days of you owning it, she will see the change and wonder what the fuck is going on with you.

But, ultimately, you do it because it needs to be done, not because you think she will respond in a particular way. That's a covert contract and it will never work in your favor.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

This is where I'm lost. I do take care of everything that needs to be done. Just not the supplicating request from her to do more than usual so she can run off and do something she wants, with last second notice. It feels like a damned either way. If I do it no questions, I'm a supplicating beta.

[–]black_second_coming8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nope. Like everyone else said, you're in her frame right now. You need to stop that and draw her into yours. Your frame is all that matters. And from there, you show her that you're the fucking man by getting shit done, without whining or DEERing.

"Go ahead babe, I got this." is all you should've said. Then you actually do it without bitching, and do it better than she would have.

The Captain analogy is used because an actual captain of a ship has been in all the other positions before, he knows those jobs inside and out. When the crew can't hack it or is in over their heads, who steps up and saves them? The fucking Captain. And he does it with an air of authority so as to show the crew that he knows how to handle any problem on the ship, and he can handle it with ease. The captain doesn't bitch when shit goes south, he does what's needed to get it done.

Be the fucking Captain.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Young kids just suck in general. It's not like there's a great way for the two of you to get free time. Maybe tell her, "sure you can go if you help me with the other kids first."

[–]screechhaterRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

You are lost because you are not taking ownership with being a father and you are using the "She is a SAHM" excuse bullshit. Covertly hiding behind it, pounding your chest, fuck me !!! This is not sexual strategy, nor is it personal growth in the right direction.

If you are taking care of everything that needs to be done, then you don't run out of pull ups

Let me help you wipe the wet behind you beta ears away....... you are a man. When you are the "man" Mrs. Prarrott will spend every dime you have if you let her and then blame you for your drunkenness. Therefore as the man, you had better have a "Plan B" in waiting @ all times. Period.

You should have known you are low on pull ups and got them @ lunch or the way home, because you are just that fucking bitchin' right ?

"It feels like a damned either way"

Because you exude weak ass frame that can be the dog that is wagged by the tail

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret5 points6 points  (15 children) | Copy

This is not going to end well. A Captain who can't take care of his kid, and refuses an entirely reasonable request to help out his First Officer because he is butthurt about her not fucking him. What could possibly go wrong?

Wait, it's NOT in the sidebar that this type of behavior is attractive to women? Really?

Also, last time I thought somebody told you about STFU? Didn't we talk about leadership and leading your relationship and your wife? Didn't I directly TELL YOU (and I almost NEVER tell men what they should do) to move forward and lead her away from this childish fight? A leader doesn't quibble about 40 minutes and cause a big stink. What was the big deal?

Next time you want to do something, you're not allowed.

Nope, not going to end well.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy

I just dont understand. It seemed like a clear compliance test. We just had a thread about this. I didnt bend over, and I offered a compromise. I'm just fucking lost.

[–]iloveairplane4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy

OK, so you made a mistake, so what, pick yourself up don't beat yourself up too bad, tomorrow's a new day. The reason the guys give you such a hard time here is to wake you up.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

I'm wide awake. When the shit gets real I just can't seem to do anything right. I misread every situation it seems.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Time is a factor you need to consider. This takes time. 4 months in to change years of BP behavior... nope. Give yourself time. Think about it. A perfect example: gym. Do you get muscular overnight?

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy

Research. Dig deep into Rational Male, Return of the Kings. PUAs have great advice on this as well.

I don't think you've done as much reading as you claimed. In 30 seconds I pulled tons of discussions and blogs about shit tests, compliance tests.....

Get to work. It's not like you're fucking anyone.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Agreed. Either he didn't do the reading at all or is not internalizing it thinking: "How does this apply to me?"

With those who have read, you'll see some attempt at a connection with: "Rollo says such and such so I thought...was the solution". But it seems he cold reading every scenario with his wife and trying to pull ideas from posts rather than internalized concepts from reading to react.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

it's a recent development. There are several guys out there that are doing this. Cursory reading or claiming they have.

A renewal of the basics and learning to STFU while sorting out your frame is key. It's important for 2 factors

  • 1. You don't get yourself into a world of shit such as OP did here.
  • 2. You begin to learn to internalize what's going on. You look and think oh...i should have said that.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah You listened to the wrong advice.

First you neeed to pull the head out your fourth point of contact and realize that this isn't a war. It isnt you vs her. This about you getting your shit together.

Second, ok she isn't fucking you. Would you fuck you? Get over it. In fact I'm seeing a lot of guys taking the lessons the entirely wrong way here. Being a dick about things isn't the answer. That's more like a final stage when you've proven your worth to her and you can get away with being a dickhead. You are still writing that convert contract that says "I am not fucked therefore you get nothing". Bullshit. That's what she does.

Third, did she ask a reasonable thing? There was an aspect of the family mission that had to get done. Yeah? It wasn't like she was going out with the girls. YOu told her that her responsibility was to the kids. Isn't yours as well? ARen't you apart of that? Or do you just walk in make a bunch of demands and sit on the couch after work.

You need to learn to sort the shit/compliance tests from things that actually matter. It isn't easy I grant you.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy

All right, so not a Troll. Maybe. Every one of your threads has been linked to The Blue Pill and some of this seems to be egging us on but I will take it at your word. I was like you not that long ago. Yes, it is true. I didn't choose the word Bluepill in my name by chance.

Before you get to compliance testing responses you need to be a leader. Even then you don't automatically reject a compliance test. Much better to playfully "negotiate" some sexual tête-à-tête. You are using shit test responses out of anger and butthurt, not out of love and affection and a desire to fuck her brains out.

I get very well that you are angry and butthurt. You have every right to be pissed. You even have the right to be butthurt. However, letting that anger control you is not going to end well. You are a man and must rise above that. This is the reason for her behavior and her lack of sexual passion (well that and the whole baby thing). You are not rising above it and are using your anger to influence your decisions.

She made a perfectly reasonable request and you treated it like you couldn't handle watching the kids. You even listed all the steps it takes to get the kids ready for bed. Do you even get that this is penultimate DEER-ing? Yes, we know about getting kids ready for bed- but I struggle to imagine a universe where my wife wants me to watch the baby while she runs errands when I am home anyway, and I say, ummm, no! Watching the baby is HARRRRD. Spending time with my kids is HAAAARRRRD. That is your job. I can't even write it very coherently because it sounds ridiculous.

I am the one who does not understand.

Edit: This is the next post on /r/askMRP made 7 hours before this post: On Fetching Tasks and Compliance Testing)

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

Troll

Honestly, I was sure he was months ago. But he just kept posting and honestly looking like he was confused without the hint of sarcasm or extremism that you'll find with the easy-to-spot trolls. If he is working it so good as to actually be one though...it's bringing out a lot of good reinforcing thoughts to mens' MRP process. He's actually helping others solidify their strategy by trying to teach him.

In womanese though: I wish he would just get it.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I think he is trying and that he will get it. His problem is the absolute refusal to consider "cheating." You don't have to cheat. But..you MUST be able to. He is not and his wife knows she has him trapped like a fly in paper no matter how bad she treats him. If he would open his eyes and build some flirty/seductive behaviors just enough to catch another girl's eye his entire life would change overnight. But he won't even consider that because he is trapped by "honor" or whatever.

It reminds me of the excuses "abuse victims" always make. But...but...but...I can't leave him because....because....kids and love and reasons.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

But..you MUST be able to.

Not even that.

You must be EITHER willing to Cheat, or be Willing to leave.

Another alternate way of saying it is "She must feel he can get laid elsewhere"

[–]BrazilRedPill-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy

Dude, I say you have nothing to be sorry about. You did nothing wrong. You were bathing a kid, said you would do what she asked, but you just couldn't be as fast as she wanted, which seems reasonable. She went nuts, which is unreasonable.

Asking you to do more than what is reasonable is lame. You shouldn't apologize at all.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy

OP's fundamental problem is that he is totally unwilling to, or completely frightened of, accepting personal responsibility for (owning) his own decisions, desires, and boundaries. (We call this "frame" here at MRP.)

Today's manufactured crisis is a case in point. His wife asks him for a favor (taking care of infant while she goes to the store). Rather than just saying "no", OP DEERs about all the child-care duties he must do. Why? Because OP desperately wants her to take back the request so that he doesn't have to be responsible for saying "no". When wife accepts his "no" but expresses her disappointment, OP launches into a full-scale responsibility-shifting attack, because OP would rather blow up his relationship and be a grossly unattractive feminized beta faggot than own personal responsibility for saying "no".

Three weeks ago, OP hid behind his own son and forced responsibility for OP's attempted punishment of OP's wife onto the young boy, because OP would rather emotionally abuse his own son and raise him to be a codependent faggot rather than OP owning his decision to punish his wife. A month ago, OP DEERed and evaded rather than own his sexual desires.

Should I keep going back? Does anybody else see a strong and consistent pattern of extreme avoidance of ownership?

OP, you're reading the words but missing the concept. Frame is open, unembarrassed expression of your decisions, desires, and boundaries. You can't have frame without accepting that others will not always agree with your decisions, desires, and boundaries; that they will tell you so and test them both covertly and overtly; and that they will judge you in their own minds for them. Comfortable acceptance of this is what we mean by IDGAF and OI. Until you own the necessity and responsibility for, and accept the inevitable consequences of, your own decisions, desires, and boundaries, you'll continue to be stuck at ground zero.

[–]iloveairplane0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

right on. He needs to re-read nmmng, own his shit, get his act together, look and act like a man with a plan, then he can start seeing some respect from his wife and others around him.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Keep the baby while dealing with the others. Your wife wasn't going off to the rippers or to visit some dude. She was going to fetch money for clothes she took the initiative to sell. It's one thing to lead and another to demand she does what you say.

I can count on zero fingers the number of people that would follow that sort of leader into battle. Do better, not more.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Man, you are knee deep in poop. Everyone is giving you great ideas here. BUT you NEED some space. Physical space. Head space.

You can't even take a breath without engaging your wife. You have too much crap going on in your head to do anything well.

Cool down. Relax your mind. Meditate. Take many deep breaths. Calm yourself. Disengage from the battle in your mind. Get some space between you and the world. Best

[–]iloveairplane1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I agree - I remember being in this phase he is going through and it sucks - I actually cried uncontrollably off and on for a couple of days because I thought I was such a failure and thoughts of divorce were on my mind. Then I just started taking drives by myself and shutting the noise out for a bit and meditating and praying - I was such a pent up ball of anxiety during that time - of course I was going to fail shit tests!

It will come together prarrott....have a nice drink tonight, get some sleep and find your frame.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

agree - I remember being in this phase he is going through and it sucks

Yes this.

[–]iloveairplane5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy

Dude - do you expect her to be a slave to the kids 24x7? Sounds like you haven't sat her down and had the conversation about how you both should handle he responsibilities and the she needs a break from the kids just like you need a break from work. You have to be able to find time for errands, fun, relax time, alone time, together time etc. part of that is she needs some time away from the kids just to run some errands and get her head straight.

Once you two have sat down and discussed this you need to get her mind share so it isn't a conversation or argument or misunderstanding anymore. Then if you truly have your shit together and it truly is inconveniencing you because she is trying to take over your agreed upon time - then you can say no and you won't have to feel the need to explain.

[–]BrazilRedPill-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy

He said he was bathing a kid. He said he would do it in a reasonable time. He said he would stay with the kids. What else do you want? You are a pussy yourself. He was willing to do a lot more than is reasonable to do. This is why it didn't work. And you want him to do more? Are you crazy?

[–]iloveairplane5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy

She can handle all three kids at a time, he's just admitting to being able to handle only 2 of them and then telling her that as a SAHM she has to handle all 3 of them when he isn't even able to handle that load....he is showing he isn't able to be the captain of the whole ship - just part of it.

Don't call me a pussy like you're trying to make a point or something.

[–]BrazilRedPill-3 points-2 points  (3 children) | Copy

He can handle all of them, but not as fast as she's unreasonably asking. That's all. He stated very clearly that he is a very good and caring father, that's for sure. But she is asking unreasonable stuff.

Look bro, we are trying to help him, but you don't make sense. He needs more alpha stuff, and you are saying he needs more beta stuff. This is why your comment sucked.

[–]iloveairplane3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

The only thing my comment sucked is your moms balls.

Man people get weird on the internet when you disagree with them.

[–]BrazilRedPill-2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy

You didn't answer my points, you see? Your life example isn't working on yourself, don't try to use it as a parameter of something good. Let's help OP.

[–]iloveairplane2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Ok - I'll bite a little, but how about some respect for alternative points of view instead of saying my comments suck and calling me a pussy....that is where you'll loose me because I will think you aren't being respectful of any posters other than those you agree with ok? I've read all his posts on MRP.

Him saying he can't handle the kids as fast as she can is a sign of weakness. I don't think she is asking for anything unreasonable. And I definitely don't think he is ready to add more alpha without balancing the beta/comfort with it.

You say he needs more alpha. Sure he does...but I think not until after he has his shit together....right now he doesn't. Drunk captain is sinking the ship and his first mate is ready to be the first to the lifeboats because she doesn't trust him. 4 month old baby in the house is a really shitty time for EVERYONE. So I think he needs to put more work in, getting the house under control and the wife feeling a little more on top of things than she is (leadership from him and good direction), then (or even during the getting-shit-together phase) he can add in some alpha traits he discovers on the side bar....

[–]470_2_700_nm3 points4 points  (10 children) | Copy

HER: Hey I turned in some of the babies clothes at a store and I have to return today to recieve what they will give for them (we previously agreed she can keep this money) They close at 8pm. Will you take care of the baby (in addition to my normal dities feeding, bathing, etc the older 2)

ME: I can do that but it won't be until 7:20pm after I finish feeding and bathing the others (as youve heard previously, she's given me weeks of hard no's, so I'm not in a particularly supplicating mood).

Instead of strike through (I wish I could have been there on your shoulder to shut your fucking mouth there, and insert what is next), you decide yes or no in your head. Then you inform her in "yes I can do that" or "no... I can't do that today". No deering, no rationalising, no explaining.

Read "When I say no I feel guilty".

Right now you just can't say no and own that mother fucking no. But you can get there.

[–]iloveairplane3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Exactly - right now he can't say no and own that mother fucking no. He has to explain to his wife why he said no - but partially because his no is not a good answer and his wife knows it.

Her: Hey honey, can you act like an adult today? Him: no

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (8 children) | Copy

So I should have said "no" even though I was willing to do it later when it wasn't inconvenient for me?

Yes, I have read WISNIFG and I thought I was offering a Workable Compromise

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I thought I was offering a Workable Compromise

You did offer a workable compromise, and you did right in doing so. Good on you, mate! But she chose not to accept your compromise, and to just own her shit. Good on her! So far, all is good.

Was she a bit disappointed that her initial plan didn't work out and she would be modestly inconvenienced? Of course she was; if not she wouldn't have proposed it in the first place. In her shoes, I, you, OP, or anybody would be; that's just life as a human being in this world.

But then she briefly and mildly expressed that disappointment in a passive-aggressive dig implying OP is lazy. Unattractive tiny little shit test, yes, but an understandable one in response to her disappointed feelz at that instant; any of STFU, A&A ("why don't you see if you can get your money back on <infant> while you're there?"), or an AM smile would have sufficed. But rather than graciously accepting her act of OHS and her acceptance of OP's decision not to help, OP goes into butthurt-Rambo attack mode pushing back at her words suggesting that he's not pulling his weight, thus spectacularly failing this tiny shit test and blowing a trivial incident up into a big setback.

[–]iloveairplane4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

I personally think you should have said "sure babe, I'll take him, go get your shit done" then gave her a pat on the ass. You already had 2 kids with you what's another one?

I'm not advocating you be a pushover and take the kids more than you should - it just sounds like you haven't struck a balance yet with her and you need to have solid communication and a real plan in place...then you can start taking some next steps.

Maybe I'm wrong though - do you feel like you really have your shit together and everything is dialed in and your wife looks up to you?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

No, my wife doesnt look up to me at all. But, I fear it is because I have been a supplicating pushover for all these years. I am trying to listen to my own voice, and stand up to requests I deem unreasonable, especially when she is completely sexually unavailable. However this just caused her to rage out. She said "if you want to keep not having sex, then keep doing this". Not good

[–]iloveairplane2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I personally think it is more about leadership, getting your shit together, and creating an atmosphere of attraction and enjoyment before you get to complain about the lack of sex. Sure you've been a pushover for a long while, but you can't all of a sudden start being a hard ass when you haven't done the work to establish yourself as a trustworthy leader deserving of respect. If you force the respect then it will be mutiny....she will rebel and your relationship will be done.

[–]470_2_700_nm-3 points-2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I would say your compromising is sucking right now for you. I see this question from her:

H: That wont give me enough time

as really this:

H: can you say no to me and be a man? if you do I will manipulate you to try to get what I want. If you fail to navigate this situation well I will either get my way or act in some way that passes judgement on you. At this point my pussy will be dry. If you do navigate this situation well enough and act assertive such that I do not sniff out that your OI is fake, I will see a you as a man I'll submit to later on.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (2 children) | Copy

That's an interesting thought. How could I have handled it to produce the latter. She was being uber-bitchy from the get-go and I was calm and (I thought) assertive. She came home and continued to be bitchy and has completely withdrawn now. It seems like the more I stand firm, the more she fights back and withdraws

[–]iloveairplane2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Your drawing a line in the sand but I think you were in the wrong here....you have a lot to learn. Still, pick your battles.

One of the things a lot of guys forget here is you can't be the hard ass all the time, you have to be fun exciting and someone that people generally want to be around. Maybe take a moment tonight and break the ice with a joke, then say "I know things didn't work out exactly the way we hoped tonight but maybe we could work out a good plan that will work better for the family going forward, are you able to talk about that now or would you like to schedule that with me?"

Then talk about a split of responsibilities that works for both of you and times that are yours and times that are hers and how to handle emergency or last minute situations. Tell her you appreciate her hard work, and you look forward to working together and learning as your family grows...there will be mistakes but you are an animal at overcoming adversity. (Emphasis animal - you need to deliver quality leadership with confidence...but you know you will be making a lot of mistakes during this process!)

[–]JDRoedellRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

That's how it is at first. This is when you maintain the positive frame and go about your day focused on you and your goals. Fuck her withdrawing, shitty behavior and feelings. They aren't yours to fix

[–]nastynickdrRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Did she allow you to post here?

Do you know what DEER is? Do you know you should be leading? Did you read NMMNG, WISNIFG and MMSLP? Do you know what frame is? Why you are totally into her frame? Do you even lift?

A good starting point would be to stop popping kids into her, maybe its good you are not getting laid.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I'm going to reply but not before giving a nod to /u/PurpleVeteran 's beautiful write up. He is taking the time to give you point by point guidance because right now you are like a cat with it's claws dug in so deep you could hang from the ceiling.

Look at what you wrote. It just drips with sarcasm and hatred.

Beautiful interatction with lovely wife (sarcasm)

If you feel that way (consequences)

Your responsibility is to our children (guilt trip)

 

You ever start some kind of big project where you eventually found yourself frustrated and in over your head? So many things go wrong and you have to make extra trips to the hardware store and you forget things and it's taking way longer than you thought. Shit is breaking, parts are misalligned, but you persist and keep on thinking, "I can salvage this. I can make something of this yet. I just have to try harder." In the back of your mind you know it's going to turn out like shit anyway and you should just say FUCK THIS and call an expert.

You are fighting so hard to keep your head above water. To pass a shit test. To get sex. To have some kind of positive outcome. I say to you LET GO. Let it ALL go. This marriage as it is right now has failed. Demote her to plate. Let the arguments go, let the hatred go, let the hope GO. Take an afternoon to sit down by yourself in a room and just purge any hope you have of saving this.

 

Then, start at square one. The relationship is over. So do not spend any more time trying to work on it. Keep any talk with her to a minimum. Don't tell her your feelings. Don't share your day. Give her minimal attention with a few word answer. NONE OF THIS comes from spite...you are done with spite because you have no motivation to move her in any way.

Work on YOU. Figure out how you need to run the house WITH KIDS with your wife not in the picture, because in your mind she is but a phantom now. Take care of what needs to be taken care of. Laundry, cleaning, cooking, feeding, bathing, brushing teeth. Do it all. Spend a few WEEKS doing this. Get your base shit in order. Because THIS is how your life will be if she isn't in it. Make sure you're capabile.

 

When she starts noticing this...and she will:

If she gives a cold shoulder: You are no longer in a fight because you hold no place in your heart for someone to fight with, you don't care.

If she asks what's wrong, you're distant: "I am?" Her: "Yes. Blah blah blah." You: "Oh". This is not the time to guilt trip, or explain, or try to move her. YOU DON'T CARE ANYMORE.

If she offers to help you do whatever: Accept the help. She is openly providing value. Give a small "thanks" and continue on. This is the part to focus on though. At first you will be focusing solely on you. IF she decides to add herself into your life, accept it freely.

After you have build up your base at home after a few weeks/months, start branching to hobbies, social life, etc. outside the house. This will be difficult because you need a babysitter. Try to find every person you can before deferring to her. If you do turn to her...IF she is not doing anything important during that time, TELL her, "I'm going to X on Thursday at 8." Don't defend it with, "You're not doing anything." Just do it. Even if she's fighting you up until 7:59, go...and do not fight back or DEER. Just go. If she eventually watches the kids...note that as value she brought. If she does not (intentionally plans something and goes out that time) again note that as value she doesn't bring.

I won't go too much deeper because you'll see how this develops over time, and the weighing of how everything is going will impact what you do next. So provide an update in that few weeks to a month time on how things are going. But you see the main idea. Start from scratch, and see what value she is willing to put into your life by her own choice alone. This will...IN THE FUTURE AFTER YOUR UPDATE...determine how you can go about bringing out more value from her from your leadership. But right now she is dead to you. So start living as if that's the case.

[–]PurpleVeteranRed Beret2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

You reminded me of the fundamental piece of MRP advice that ties it all together: kill the ego. Stop being a participant in the drama, stop trying to be better than her, and stop with the sarcasm and pronouncements. OP needs to put it all away, and start from scratch. Not to prove himself to her, but to be accountable only to himself.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Dead on. Every now and then u see a shift to or from certain RP ideas on the forum. Kill the ego seems to have fewer mentions recently and I think posts like OP's is the result.

[–]nopeToThe43rd0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This advice is legit. You need to figure out how your life runs without your wife. Then you need to actually run your life without your wife. You need to commit to that attitude and live it. Thoroughly, through and through, 100%. If she's interested in being a part of it - fuck that, that's what I've got to let go of - there is no conditional. Run.Your.Life. - see what happens, without expectation of anyone else (other than your kids - teach them how, and expect them, to be awesome).

[–]Nyquil-Junkie3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I just texted her "Can you pick up some pullups for 3 year old while you are out"

lol I can hear her screaming.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

I think your major problem is you're trying to force sex on a woman who is breastfeeding, hormonal, and not attracted to you. You're putting all this pressure on the both of you and it's coming out all fucking sideways. You need a sex moratorium of a month, keep owning your shit, and get out in front of her. Just jerk off. It's not going to kill you for a month. I can feel the pent up frustration from here. She's probably all stretch-marked and flabby anyway. It's not worth getting such a boner for her

[–]BobbyPeru0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

A doe, a DEER, a female DEER. She worked you over dude.

Get busy reading the sidebar and lifting.

[–]drty_prRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I've said it before bro and I'll say it again. You are a condescending fuck man. She will never respect you for acting like this! EVER! When you get that urge to talk down to her, STFU. Until you grasp this simple concept, these shit ball scenarios will never stop.

[–]chief_slap_ahoe0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I agree.

She gave him every chance to step up and be the man that she wants to fuck. OP step up and be a man more importantly be a father.

[–]mtdog0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This was a reasonable request.

Your boundaries are, frankly, fucking weak and stupid.

Your frame is that of a butthurt baby.

You need to STFU and work on not being an asshole. You aren't ready to be alpha yet.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

M: Your responsibility is our children (she is a SAHM), this is how you provide value to the family. You're abandoning your responsibility. I told you the conditions under which I would help

Did you really say this?

You know how to communicate this without saying it?

You take the kids, be a dad. And when she comes home from doing what every she wanted to do, you are either hanging out with the kids like its not a big deal and is easy ,or have tucked them all into bed, made dinner, and are ready with a smile.

You know why???

Coz you don't need her to be a mom in order to get laid... and you don't NEED her to be a mom. None of this needs to be said at this point in your relationship

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Did you really say this?

Took the words right out of my mouth. In fact, I typed them but then I shook my head and deleted them. I gave up. Afraid that this one is too stupid to live.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Afraid that this one is too stupid to live.

bloop trolls agree

[–]PurpleVeteranRed Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

It's ironic that he should lecture her on responsibility.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If she is a full time stay at home mom as her contribution to the family unit- then no, it's not.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm-1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy

Too much explaining and exposition. She's pushing your buttons to see what she can get away with and if you'll just do whatever she wants when she wants. If she's asking for reasonable help, then do it. If she could have gotten the money during the day with the kids, tell her it's too busy right now and she can do it during the day...you have other more fun plans for the two of you later.

And when she says next time you want to go out you can't go, just say "No problem, I'll take the baby with me...babies are great for picking up chicks....". All with a smile and a wink.

Stop taking all her shit so seriously when this is not super serious shit. This is minor planning items not life/death family shit. Give her guidance on when to do it and start approaching it with fun. If she doesn't partake in your jovial attitude, it's her loss. She'll come around with time though...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

I didn't think it was a big deal, she did. She just came home and called me a "bitch" for not doing it. She's trying to force me to do something else she needed to do now because "we arent helping each other anymore". She told me "you want sex, but I have absolutely no reason to want to have sex with you, and that was the nail in the coffin"

I'm SO TEMPTED to go sit down with her and try to talk it out. "Lets talk about this and figure out how we can do it better next time". But that feels so beta. I'm resisting, but she is in the other room smoldering and clearly dry as a desert, so I feel a bit trapped

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

She just came home and called me a "bitch" for not doing it.

No, she didn't. She called you a bitch for shit-testing her, twice, even after she accepted your decision and owned her shit. Until you understand this, you'll continue to fail.

Once again, your amazingly feminized mind is avoiding accepting your responsibility for this, this time via the classic "she punched me back, so I'm absolved of blame for kicking her in the balls first" dodge. Your first shit-test was the low blow that started this; now you're just crying to us because she punches back harder than you.

[–]JDRoedellRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Ignore her for now. Let her see it doesn't phase you. Don't go talk about it

[–]PurpleVeteranRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

She's trying to force me to do something else she needed to do now because "we arent helping each other anymore". She told me "you want sex, but I have absolutely no reason to want to have sex with you, and that was the nail in the coffin"

What the actual fuck? This is exactly what we are telling you to do as well. Seriously, she is laying it out for you, and you are rejecting her, because... why?

I'm SO TEMPTED to go sit down with her and try to talk it out. "Lets talk about this and figure out how we can do it better next time".

Don't DEER, don't engage, don't negotiate. If you want to do better, then do better. The only way out of this is to start owning your shit. Stop trying to manipulate or manage her, and demonstrate that you have everything (including yourself) under control.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

'm SO TEMPTED to go sit down with her and try to talk it out. "Lets talk about this and figure out how we can do it better next time"

Beta fags do this kind of shit

"I'm resisting, but she is in the other room smoldering and clearly dry as a desert, so I feel a bit trapped"

Because you talk and DEER to dry death

Jesus You are trying so hard to force change, you are being a dick chicks wont fuck a dick

[–]iloveairplane0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

So it seems she doesn't feel you as OI, she feels (correctly so) that you are passively aggressively saying no to helping her with kids shit because she won't have sex with you.

You have to disconnect the two in her mind ok???

If tension is high then just go in another room until you can handle a conversation with her, but when you can just try this: "hey babe, I made a mistake. That's going to happen. But you know what? I'm trying to make things better for our family so let's talk about how we can handle all of our responsibilities and still make time for you and for me and for us together and errands and last minute stuff - in other words let's plan how we are going to do things and it will get easier and fun again."

That is not beta, that is being an effective Communicator and leading the discussion.

[–]BrazilRedPill-3 points-2 points  (11 children) | Copy

You are doing wife job. Why isn't she the one that stays with the kids and you go and get the money at the store? She is the leader, you are less than shit. You are not doing leader stuff, you are doing secondary stuff.

Get your shit togheter, be a leader, do the most important / masculine things. This is you being a pussy and taking her orders. It should be the opposite.

Women are not happy like this. Watching the kids is zero leadership and zero tingles in the pussy. You suck. This is why she is angry.

Learn to be the leader and do important tasks. Lift, think straight, think hard.

[–]iloveairplane5 points6 points  (10 children) | Copy

Women are also not happy doing kids 24x7....they are our kids too. Its acceptable leadership to purposely handle the kids from time to time and give your wife a break from them....she needs to get shit done too.

[–]BrazilRedPill-5 points-4 points  (9 children) | Copy

He said he was bathing a kid. He said he would do it in a reasonable time. He said he would stay with the kids. What else do you want? He was willing to do a lot more than is reasonable to do. This is why it didn't work. And you want him to do more?

[–]iloveairplane4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy

His wife can handle all 3 kids by herself but he can only handle 2 by himself? Yeah I want him to do more.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Amen. Even if it's a disaster take over and figure it out. It's not like women have some magical SAHM ways. They do it because it has to be done. What man can't rise to that bar?

This is a time for irrational confidence.

My only hesitation is... does OP have the brains to pull it off without slapping his kids senseless.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

I also noticed that. How hard is it to watch a fucking baby for 40 minutes? Change a diaper and stick them in the rocker in front of Veggie Tales. Or, I don't know, actually spend some quality time with your kids? I am actually beginning to suspect this is a troll. He really got me going on the last thread and this is even more ridiculous despite all the advice he got.

Dude, if this is real, at least read the sidebar books. Not a leader. Not attractive. Passive Aggressive. Intermittently violent. Pissed about spending time with his kids. Stop it. Just stop it. You need to lead in a positive way or you need to leave in a positive way. Leave or lead. Those are your options and right now you are "leading" right into the jaws of Hell.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I'm not a troll I'm really trying to change. If you dont know how difficult it is after a long day at work to deal with a 4month old that must be held, while feeding and bathing a 3 and 5 year old, I cant help. Just so your bitchy wife can run off to do something she had all day to do, including the time you already took the kids earlier that evening.

But I know I am failing but I feel completely powerless to stop it.

[–]iloveairplane2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Now imagine you've got your shit together because you wake up early everyday, stay up late, putting in the hours it takes to read the material that has been laid out before you, posted to the OYS threads, taken advice and criticism from guys here and have passed through to the other side.

That's the future you. Now quit talking like a faggot who cant handle working a 12 hour shift and dealing with 3 very young kids and a bitchy wife. ITS beneath you now - get it? You have to own that shit and push through! Maybe nobody taught you how to man up, heck maybe your parents died when you were young, whatever the problems you are going to find your balls and tackle that shit head on starting now....but don't take it out on your wife....she is the way she is in part because of your leadership over the years ok?

[–]iloveairplane2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

I've got 5 very young kids and I can bathe and feed them all on my own, I can do anything my woman can do and more, she knows I can handle ANYTHING and she puts her trust in that...it shows strength. 5 kids is the cross I bear, OP has 3.

[–]BrazilRedPill-3 points-2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Your life example isn't working on yourself, don't try to use it as a parameter of something good. Let's help OP.

[–]iloveairplane3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

You can help when you quit shit-testing me like a woman.

Let people disagree with you in a polite way. Share your experience, quit trying to put people down - it makes you look bad.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

He's got a point bro

[–]Mecha75-2 points-1 points  (2 children) | Copy

Here is how you say no (from a text convo from my SAHM wife this very day)

W: can i spend X amount on X credit card

M: No

W: okay

And thats how it works.

[–]PurpleVeteranRed Beret2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Only if she respects you. Do you think his wife gives a shit about his boundaries?

[–]Mecha751 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Do you think my wife did 2 months ago? You dont DEER after the "no." Then you STFU and maintain frame as she blows up. Eventually as you continue to maintain frame and exhibit leadership qualities in your marriage, she will begin ti respect him.



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