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Bumps in the road

Reddit View
June 7, 2019

It's been a while since my last post. Chugging along my red pill journey, but I hit some bumps that I'm not sure if I'm handling optimally, so I'll keep this as brief as I can and looking for you guys to kick my ass and help me be better.

I grew my business quite a bit over the last year and a half. Things are up trending and we've brought on some additional people and won some new contracts (for those of you that don't know, I have owned my own construction company for the last 18 years). I needed some access to low cost capital, so I took money out on my home equity line (HELOC) and some cash I have saved over the past few years, and put it in the business to fund some rapid growth. I've been doing stuff like this my entire career and any money I've invested in my business produces profits and nice returns. This model has been tried and true for me, so it's normal practice for me when necessary.

I owned my house before I married my wife and it's protected (to the best they can) in a prenup (second marriage, found the red pill shortly after) and it's solely in my name still to this day. She came home from work one day pissed as hell a couple weeks ago. Told me "we have to talk after the kids go to bed." She approaches me after the kids go to bed and confronts me about the HELOC. I shrugged it off and said, "yeah, I got $40,000 out of my HELOC earlier this year." Her rage grew as I blew her off, and she ranted harder about how I'm a liar by omission and how I can't be trusted. I started to DEER but quickly caught myself, then ended it quickly, but saying "you know what, I did it, and I understand that you're upset... if you would like to know when I decide to do something similar in the future, I can let you know." She fired back, "well, what if I'm against it, I guess you'll do it anyway!" I said, "yep, absolutely will, but I'll tell you... I got nothing to hide." She got enraged even more and gave me the silent treatment for a few days. I went about my business and didn't give a shit. A few days, she draws back in and is all lovey doevy and fucks my brains out the following weekend.

Last week, she goes to see her therapist, and comes home mad again and opens the "me being a liar and fiancial cheat again." I tell her, "I'm not doing this, we discussed this already." She gets mad again and says how she is offended and this is major deal for her and this issue is not settled. Said she wants a say in and some changes in how the fiances are run. I said, "sure, your advise, counsel, and opinions are always welcome, but I'll make any final decisions." She got enraged and shit stormed for two days. I went out last Friday night for dinner by myself and came home. She is acting like a bitch, so I DNGAF and don't engage. About an hour later, I put on shoes and tell her I'm going back out... this is where I'm going and I'll be back in couple hours. You are welcome to come or you can stay. She pouts, gets dressed and we went out. I had fun, while she pouted at first, but then came around. The rest of the weekend was spent having fun and full of mind blowing sex.

Tonight, I took my daughter to her softball game (I coach) and took her out to eat after. My wife had the other kids (my son and her son) and took them to eat. She also dropped her daughter (my step daughter) off at a school function and had to return at 830 to get her. She texted me about 8:10 and asked me if we were done with the game and when I'd be home. I told her, I was getting dinner with my daughter and that we just finished up and were heading home. She left to get her daughter at the school function and took the boys (they are 9 and 7 and can't be left alone). I arrived home and she was still out. She got home about 8:50 and was shit storming about how it's so late and how I'm a selfish inconsiderate asshole for not thinking to come home earlier so the bedtime routine wasn't interrupted (normal bedtime routine starts at 8 pm). She ranted about how it's late, and she has to get up early and the kids will be difficult and blah blah blah. I kind of chuckled at her and told her while shrugging and said, "not a mind reader... if you wanted or needed help, you should have asked.... I would have been happy to help if I'd been available." She says, "I shouldn't have to ask... blah blah, something about common sense, blah blah.."

I told her, "I'm not playing this game, and I don't appreciate the attitide." She shit stormed some more, so I shrugged and went down stairs to watch tv. She followed me downstairs and brought up the HELOC again and how I'm a huge asshole.

I said, "done discussing that issue, we talked about it and I'm done with this silly discussion tonight." She said, "well, I'm still mad and I'm still not ok with what you did with the HELOC." I said, "ok, I understand you're upset", and walked in the other room. She shitstormed some more and ran back upstairs.

My questions:

  1. Am I being too much of a dick and insensitive about the HELOC issue and the cash I put in my business? (It was cash I had saved, and would have had anyway with or without her because although she makes a great living, I make 5 times what she does). I really don't care, but maybe she's comfort testing?

  2. Is there something I'm doing that is not consistent with red pill philosophy that I don't see?

All comments and takes are welcome.

Post Information
Title Bumps in the road
Author dll142
Upvotes 18
Comments 44
Date 07 June 2019 03:27 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Original Link
Similar Posts

Red Pill terms found in post:
DEERcomfort testgamethe red pill

[–]BobbyPeruRed Beret8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy

I knew she had kids from before the marriage before you wrote it. Her kids security will always come first, and she views it as a threat to HER kids security. That being said, since you are in a marriage she views the house as security for the whole family. You may technically own it, but it’s still always potential income for the family.

You keep trying to convince us that it’s a great short term growths took/ seems like you’re trying hard to get us to validate that point. I’d take a closer look at that.

With that being said, you are telling her you’ll tell her but still make whatever damn decision you want, so not only have you not provided comfort, but you made it worse. I think you need to get more realistic about the family as a whole. Like a good caption, keep her involved with these decisions by explaining the benefits of the choice. But, also go over the potential risks as there are always risks contrary to your attitude. Shit can spiral, and that’s the family house, depending on how maxed you are on loans against it. Life happens: medical emergencies, family crisis... etc. just saying... a HELOC is good... until it’s not.

The point is.... all this effects your first mate, and she’s apparently smart enough to see that... so why not throw it by her since it could effect her

[–]dll142[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks! My wife is super conservative financially and she has a good head on her shoulders. I will be a better captain and not give her more reasons not to trust me in that sense.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret17 points18 points  (3 children) | Copy

Is she the first officer or just some peon below deck? Ultimately, yes, you are the captain. Her complaint might not be that she wanted control (though it might be) rather she wanted to be involved.

A wise CEO will usually check in with his CFO when dealing with a fairly large amount of money. He can over rule the CFO, but it may be good to hear a different perspective.

I go to my number two at work for perspective. I often overrule him, but he has good ideas and I want his opinion.

Is she a valuable member of your team or not? A captain can do whatever the hell he wants, but it is usually good if the crew knows what is going on. Especially, the first officer.

Don’t confuse my comments as a need to “check in with the boss or the decision maker.” You make the final call regardless, but why wouldn’t you inform her about $40k? That seems significant enough that you would want to at least let her know.

My take? I think you were afraid of her reaction so you did it covertly. She knows you better than we do and that was her first take too.

Leading doesn’t mean trailblazing some path all by yourself. It is spelling out a vision, getting everyone on board, and then executing it.

Sometimes you have to execute Executive privilege. But, I don’t think that was the case here.

[–]NoCoast823 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Leading doesn’t mean trailblazing some path all by yourself. It is spelling out a vision, getting everyone on board, and then executing it.

This is solid!

[–]NMMNG_10 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


[–]dll142[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks! You have great points

[–]simbarlionRed Beret8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy

There has been a few posts lately related to the dynamic between showing emotion and being a robot.

Try this approach advanced fogging by Jackten (in the comments), in place of the stfu / wall of indifference / leave the house.

Also suggest looking through u/man_in_the_world 's posts - which is where that link came from btw.

And fuck man, the blended family sounds complicated...

[–]useful_stranger3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

This right here OP. Jacktenofhearts = a legend. Definitely helped change my life when I discovered this sub more than four years ago.

[–]johneyapocalypseThe one that says "Bad Motherfucker"1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Simbarlion you bring up a good point and I think it deserves attention. I've been off the deep end when it comes to this and feel like I lost an important part of my humanity. My wife has suffered for it... no fault of her own.

I'm gonna write something about this to provide a fresh perspective.

There's emotion, there's robot, and there's the "pinnacle of stoicism" - and its not necessarily so great for those around you - even if you believe in it with every fiber of your being.

Check your dm.

Edit: happy red-ass beret birthday mother-fucker.

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Ok, thanks. I'll check it out. Yes, it is complicated, but this situation eventually led me to the red pill.

[–]HerukaArisen2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

YMMV, but in my marriage, I have come to understand that leading sometimes also includes explaining why certain things are done in a certain way. Not deering, not whining, but simply making sure the crew understands why we are going a certain direction.

Sometimes people get mad if you are not listening to them. However, I have noticed that people often get really enraged when they realize that you are listening but still decide to do things your way. You simply need to be able to tolerate this and be the oak. If appropriate, give comfort.

In some cases, this may last for years (not necessarily marriage, but, say, professional contexts where it is sometimes more difficult to vet the people you have to deal with). You just have to take it like a man. I mean, what's the alternative? Not doing what you deem right?

[–]dll142[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes, I have my reasons for what I did and I believe they were correct. However, I should have consulted my first officer. She's a fine first officer and I found her to he a wise woman.

You have a point. She most likely would have objected, and gotten even more pissed when I would have overridden her. A leader must stand alone and take responsibility for the decisions he makes.

[–]helaughsinhidden4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

From my experience, my wife only cares about money issues when she wants to spend it. An example was last year we paid some medical bills and expenses on a credit card and when we got a tax return, I paid them off. She asked about how much of the tax return we had left and when I told her none and laughed she lost it. I DEERed by telling her I didn't want to pay X% on credit cards, so I paid them off.

Trickle truth.........turns out she wanted to get a new furniture set for the living room. See, she couldn't care less about how and when any bills are paid, as long as she gets what she wants. If I were you, I'd be curious what it is she wanted to use the HELOC for.

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I hear you, but I'd guess my wife would rather save and hoard cash rather than spend a dime. She's a huge penny pincher and a massive saver.

[–]helaughsinhidden0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Lol, I wish mine was the same way

[–]hack3geRed Beret2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

I don't think anything you are doing is a failure - this is pretty much exactly how it went down for me as well. My wife and I both make a significant amount of money and she is a CFO so she handles finances for a living and had handled our finances for the 16 years we were together.

I had a single conversation when I took control of the treasury - all major decisions on transactions over $10k will be discussed whether initiated by her or I but at the end of the day I have the final say in any disagreements. She was pissed and I had to broken record it for probably 2-3 weeks but eventually she came and told me she understood that someone had to be the tiebreaker just like the CEO at work and I think she didn't want to be the one to be held accountable for fuck ups. I actually used the opportunity to explain the captain / FO dynamic in general not just related to finances - she said as long as she felt heard that seemed fair and she just wanted to know I valued her opinions.

I suspect if you broken record this it will eventually get dropped and she will come around.

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I think she will too. I think she's worried about her job, in the sense it requires, let's just say, certain levels of high level secret clearances.

[–]RPeed3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

My wife gets an allowance and a shopping spree on her birthday. If she's in charge of groceries, there is invariably a receipt on the counter when I get home from work. Other than asking me to pay her student loans (to which I answered: "no") she has never once asked for or challenged me on any financial decision. This includes my taking us to the verge of bankruptcy on more than one occasion.

Never had to ask - the boundaries have always been clear.

Second point: there are a lot of financially successful people on this sub. More so than me. However IRL, I make more money than any of my family, friends or professional peers of the same age. Often by multiples. The moment any of these people mention money to me or I think the conversation is headed there: I immediately stop listening.


I think the red pill, rule zero answer to this is: you have weak frame.

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yes, this is a weak spot in my frame. I'll own that and work to strengthen it.

[–]JCX_Pulse1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

No one else mentioned this, so I may be way off base, but it seems she doesn’t trust your decision making ability here. At the core, her issue is certainly fear, as has been mentioned, but why doesn’t she trust you? RPEED has his wife’s trust even on the brink of financial ruin. Perhaps this is a pattern you exhibit? Look to the source of the fear and lack of confidence.

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Interesting point. I'll reflect on this.

[–]tspitsatgp3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy

Is there a disconnect, dare I say, a covert contract, between how you view the house asset (yours) and how your wife views it? You discussed general financial decisions without getting to the point that you view the house as solely yours and therefore you will do whatever the fuck your like. That’s the covert contract. Did you specifically mention that to her in your DEER’ing?

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I didn't specifically mention it, but yes, you have a point. We have never specifically discussed it, but she's made comments about her name not being on it in the past.

[–]tspitsatgp1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

A pre-nup is one of those things that can give everyone the illusion of keeping things “clean” at the start of a marriage but once emotions take over the rationale behind it is quickly forgotten. Specifically, I think the other posters who have mentioned that your wife’s inherent need to protect her offspring is coming to the fore now makes a lot of sense. She detects a threat. I also hazard a guess that you don’t want to mention the pre-nup and who actually owns the house out of trepidation over what that will unleash.

Anyway, just my two cents, I don’t speak from personal blended family experience here, just what I have observed in my social circle.

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

No, I don't overtly bring that up, and she's pretty good at not throwing it in my face... I'll give her that.

She is very sensitive to anything remotely financially risky, so yes, she instinctually sees it as a threat. If my wife had her way, she would squirrel away cash and hoard it all in a savings account. I like to balance her out by investing in calculated risks and business opportunities. I've made lots of money in my past and I have a tolerance for risk and the patience for waiting for a profitable return. She's just not used to that and she'll sit and tell you that. My strategy is to provide comfort, and I owned the fuck up that I didn't consult or at lease inform her on such a decision.

[–]0io-Tsundere0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

It's your house and your money so I don't see what the issue with the HELOC is. My wife and I are totally financially separate, I don't ask her before I spend money on anything. We don't have any joint accounts. [Unless there's some weird history you're omitting, like you borrowed money on a HELOC before and bought cocaine with it and then borrowed the wife's money and never paid it back.] Seems like it's none of her business.

I didn't see anything that struck me as terribly wrong in your post, other than that you guys are going to therapy. That seems like an easy expense to cut out of the budget.

It also seems to me that you're too mouthy when the wife is bitching about stuff. "Not a mind reader, not playing this game, ..." all those things you said would be better replaced with STFU. Just get the daughter ready for bed, if wife wants to complain she can be the only one complaining.

If there's ever any doubt between responding to a bitchy wife with some kind of comeback and STFU, STFU is usually the right choice.

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Good advice... STFU is always effective. No weird history, just a HELOC for short term, cheap, working capital for the business.

I'm the type that will reset everyday. I'll play my nice card first. If she plays her mean card, I'll follow with my mean card, until she plays her nice. My mean card is disengage, walk away and shrug with the attitude that she's pissed... her problem.... she'll get over it.

[–]0io-Tsundere0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

That sounds good. I don't know why she'd stay mad about any of this.

When she says something like "You're a liar and a financial cheat" I would just look at her like she's nuts and not say anything, just like if she accused you of taking a spaceship to Jupiter and scheming with Martians.

I guess she has some anxiety about money.

[–]triclops410 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Does she usually participate in discussions of big financial decisions? If so, she is upset because she feels like you have changed the rules on her without letting her know. That is not an unreasonable expectation on her part. A quick, "yeah, didn't realize how scary that is for you, I will let you know next time" is enough.

If she isn't usually involved in such discussions, she is mad because it either makes her scared or embarrassed that she didn't know before. If either of those is the case, then tell her to stop Monday morning QBing you. If she wants to be free of the burden of worrying about this stuff, then she is silly to get upset that you do just that.

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Great point. She does feel like I hid that from her. I did own it and tell her it was my bad and I will inform her of such major decisions next time.

[–]triclops410 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Extreme Ownership has a great way of handling mistakes without coming across and weak and submissive.

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Indeed. I am learning more and more each day. I will continue my uptrend and learn from this mistake.

[–]triclops410 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

that is the way to approach this.

[–]useful_stranger0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Ok, others have said it well: you need stronger frame and more suave, verbal tactical skills. Also there may be a deep covert contract there and fear of bringing up key decisions that you’re used to taking by yourself.

Overall her bitching about the $40k heloc is a mix between compliance test and comfort test. The reason it’s a comfort test is because if she lives in that house, and there is added financial risk to it all of a sudden (say in event of default and bank repossessing it), of course she’s like to know. So she has a point.

Keep in mind that a man who is a leader and has a strong frame should have no problem in 1. asking for opinions from his team, and 2. recognizing when he’s made a mistake. Not apologizing profusely or anything, but admitting that a better course of action would’ve been appropriate. I imagine since you are in a leadership role in your company, you always need to navigate people’s emotions, fears and egos as you manage them. So it’s just like that. Your key here is some verbal jiu jitsu, some fogging, and not engaging directly when you come against such a fortified position (eg “ money should be a joint decision”).

The bitchiness and several days- long silent treatment are the worrisome part of this. That’s ultimately up to you to decide how much you are going to put up with. YMMV different guys have different tolerance levels to drama like that.

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I did own it and apologized once for it. Told her it was my bad and I get why she was upset (and I do). My frame was strong in owning it, but weak in not consulting / informing her first.

Her issues with being mad go beyond me not telling her. She is very sensitive on financial issues (she's super conservative and is a master planner in that sense). She also is worried because her job requires her to keep clean background, including financially. Let's just say she has a job that requires high security clearances and she works with sensitive subjects. She must disclose any financial issues to her employer and she's worried that if this causes an issue in the future, she'd be embarrassed when disclosing it to her employer. I'm not saying who the employer is, but you can deduce it.

[–]useful_stranger0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Dude. I couldn’t care if she worked for an alien superpower planning an Earth invasion and neither should you. Watch how you’re rationalizing her behavior and how you subtly and based on the above comment not so subtly put her on a pedestal. That’s not to say to be a dick or insensitive. You get it. She cares deeply about these financial disclosures because her career is at stake. End of story. Everything that happens after that should be your frame. You enforce your own standards about what’s important in your life. Not her.

You’re too much in her frame by deferring so much and letting yourself be influenced, and submissive to this oh-my-God-I’m -in awe top secret job she has. You should not care beyond the practical which is what we just went over - she should be equally and arguably more impressed with you and your amazing career, life journey, mission and frame than you are with hers. There is an ocean of high-performing pussy out there. That’s the mindset you want. You’re value is higher than hers. Starts in your mind and what you consciously and subconsciously pay attention to.

[–]ArborioRice0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Basic WISNIFG would probably help you on all fronts; her meltdown about the HELOC is telegraphing something more, whether it be financial insecurity or just not feeling included as others mentioned. Use the damn tools, ffs, negative inquiry and fogging would have worked nicely in . Yea, STFU is good for stopping yourself from engaging like a retard but you're coming off as dismissive and autistic.

I don't understand, what's wrong with using the HELOC?

You're right, it is late and the kids will probably be difficult

I can see how you'd think how I was a huge asshole

As with the other half of the book, your goal using the tools is to make the other person assert their actual points instead of manipulating and insulting you...which it sounds like she's very good at. Simbarlion's post is spot on, as is the jack10 link; move yourself from stfu-->shut it down to thoughtful, managed engagement.

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You hit the nail on the head. My weak spot is getting flustered when I become emotionally flooded. I'm WAY better than I was a year ago. Always improving and uptrending. Absolute must to sharpen the saw.

[–]RedPillCoach0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I think all these cases are running together in my mind. Weird.

I'm a huge asshole.

Gratz! The proper response is: Thank you! That is sweet of you. Be careful you don't make her bust an aneurysm!

Am I being too much of a dick and insensitive about the HELOC issue

I think you should inform your First Officer about major purchases and issues like this and it would be fine if you were just being the good husband trying to protect her. The problem is you were being a chicken and trying to avoid confronting her. There is no better way to unsettle a woman than to start keeping secrets. It turbo charges the hamster!

doing that is not consistent with red pill philosophy that I don't see?

Yes, after making the call to deceive (or withhold information) from your wife, you did not own it. You DEERed and deflected when she freaked out about it. In short you felt bad when you should have either told her in the first place, or you should have been completely assured in your own frame that you were acting in the best interests of your family. Then when she freaked out you could have accepted responsibility humbly, accepted her anger as part of the package, and simply let her rage and complain until she got tired. At which point you would have hugged her and promised you won't hide something like that from her again (or alternatively you could have held firm and told her I will always act in the best interest of my family and I am sorry that you feel I did not. I will try harder next time. blah blah.

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I did do this to a point. I did own the fuck up and told her verbatim, "my bad... I should have discussed with you before hand. I won't do this type of thing again without discussing with you in the future."

I did DEER a bit and told her that I was acting the the best interests of our family and that I thought it best to do what I did from past experience.

My wife is very conservative financially and she worries sick about such things. I knew this about her. My fuck up was not informing my first office, and getting her input. Who knows, she may have suggested an alternative that I didn't see.

[–]markpf730 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I’d probably go with an SBA loan for capital equipment over the heloc

[–]dll142[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Working on that now. Going through my bank and I'm close to closing.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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