Q4RP: Is it in men's nature to destroy each other? If so, why should women and/or society care?

dejour · 2016-07-14T23:44:49+00:00

Society teaches men (and women) to care less about other men.

Evolution is part of it, but society exacerbates it greatly.

You could make similar arguments about other things:

eg. More men than women work long overtime at the office. Obviously women don't care about becoming CEO. Why should society care?

More African Americans commit crimes than others. Obviously African Americans don't care about staying out of jail. Why should society care?

My view is that the two preceding arguments are bunk, and so is the idea that society shouldn't help men.

ThrowawayCactus6012 · 2016-07-14T23:45:27+00:00

And yet, men constantly complain about how "society" doesn't care about men or their feelings.

I don't think it's because of that, though. Most men are well aware that the world is a rough place, and that in order to make it, a man has to be tough. "No such thing as a free lunch," as they say.

And yes, we have killed and fought many wars over land, power, resources, women... Our entire civilization is a testament to that.

I think what's happened nowadays is that society has shifted from the tough, no-nonsense approach into something where it's all about "feelings" and "sensitivity," where "toxic masculinity" is derided as something horrible and evil. Men have been encouraged, conditioned, and even pressured to be "more in touch with their feelings" and so forth, only to find that no one really gives a shit about their feelings. It's for this reason that many men believe that they have no real reason to abandon so-called "toxic masculinity," since it only seems to make things worse.

You can't have it both ways. You can't deride "toxic masculinity" while at the same time mocking and ridiculing men for having feelings.

darksoldierk · 2016-07-15T00:43:12+00:00

It's funny, most women I know would say "men have a tighter bond with each other". And it's true. That is why so many women get tired of female circles and try to join men's. My male friends are not only "brothers", they are family. I would give an arm and a leg to help them. I've given up things so that my friends could get things, and they've done the

You are completely missing the point of everything. Men go to war so that women don't have to. There will always be war, there will always be violent death. Whether women die by being mauled by a bear, or by another woman, women and men need protection. What you don't understand is, people don't go to war because they want to. Men don't kill each other on a mass scale because they want to, they do it out of necessity. Necessity to provide for their women. To this day, most women still don't know what it's like to have the lives of 2 or 3 other people in your hands, and the majority of women probably never will. Women are given support, given shelter, given protection, given their lives. Men are not given anything, we are forced to go out there and fight for it, not only for ourselves, but for our families as well. You think a single mother who's child is threatened with starvation wouldn't go to war and kill other women to ensure that her child is cared for? And, by the way, women have committed some of the most atrocious acts in the history of humanity. Some of those acts were committed out of free will. Those women are not discussed often in history books, they aren't in history documentaries, and they aren't in museums. Why? because women need to continue to be thought of as victims, as innocents.

Women are just as evil as men are. Take everything from them, and leave them in the woods to fend for themselves, and they'll skin children alive and eat them. Don't kid yourself.

You also have to remember, men are in consistent competition with each other. We are always competing, and that competition was caused by women. It is woman who, even when given an abundance of high quality men, will force those men to compete with each other and only mate the best one. In many ways, the way men are is solely due to women. Men evolved to kill other men because women mated men who could protect them. Men compete with other men because women will only mate the with the winner. Women expect men to compete, they demand it, and they have historically rewarded men by mating with them. Ironically enough, one can say that although men commit more physical damage, women are the true evil of the human race.

The reason why, you, as a woman should care, is because you are a part of the problem. If you want to create a world with less war and less pain, then you need to create a world where men don't need to compete for the affections of women, where women do not demand protection and expect to be provided for.

hedonism_bot_69 · 2016-07-14T23:32:20+00:00

"Is it in human nature to hurt each other, if so why should we care?"

dopesk1 · 2016-07-14T23:36:53+00:00

Well... do men care about men? Of course not. Women always have each other to lean on, but men refuse to adopt that model.

Because women don't want a whiny, emotionally-vulnerable man who uses his friends as therapists.

/r/foreveralone is full of men who've adopted your model. Go ask them how it's working.

dopesk1 · 2016-07-15T00:08:16+00:00

Women know they're are the rarer gender (gender ratio) so they're perpetually stoked about being female. They relate as females, over being happy for being females. Comprendo?

TehFuzzy · 2016-07-14T23:43:54+00:00

I think both genders are aggressive but women expel it via verbal nastiness. Women aren't encouraged to fight it out like men are. Many people accept and nearly encourage little boys to wrestle and differences get worked out in that regard. Girls are more taught verbal skills. You see women tearing each other down verbally more often than men do.

As a woman, I care because it just contributes to the violence of society. Plus, I don't hate men so clearly I don't want them hurting each other.

hedonism_bot_69 · 2016-07-15T00:02:48+00:00

All of this "society" we have is just a thin veneer on top of the harsh, universal reality.

We are on an orb of matter, floating in utter emptiness, circling another orb of matter, also floating in utter emptiness. This collection of orbs is itself surrounded by utter emptiness.

The universal truth is none of it matters. No one will care in 100 years if you or I gets hit by a bus tomorrow. In a thousand years, no one commenting here will be thought of. The universe will keep existing despite anything you or I or this planet or this solar system does.

And yet, in a state of war, the veneer is peeled back and reality is exposed. The reality is that life, while precious, is extraordinarily cheap. If men who are strangers, are intent on killing you, regardless if you are sleeping, reading a book, or nursing a baby then what of your question?

What is your response? Let them do it? Run away? To where? To whom? Into the arms of more men who are strangers, but who are friendly and despite the ridiculousness of the proposition, for some reason or another happen to value your life? I imagine you'll be thanking your lucky stars for men and the violence we wield.

You're right, men fight the wars. Women have always just been 'along for the ride'. You had better hope the right side wins. Otherwise you'll be thrust into the arms and at the mercy of strange men who you fear so much.

[deleted] · 2016-07-14T23:33:23+00:00

I don't think the argument is that women should care about men, this is just brought up to disprove the feminist position that women are the eternal victims of everything ever, and to show that in fact men face more danger than women do.

funchy · 2016-07-15T01:59:10+00:00

Men's problems are women's problems, just as the reverse is true. Those men are someone's husband, father, or son. It hurts everyone when a family loses a father to death or incarceration.

I don't think it's true that all women are empathetic and all men aren't. Some women aren't. Some women are downright evil they're so self centered; they don't care who they hurt. Women may not be as likely statistically to shoot or stab someone, but they cause destruction in their own way. Conversely there are some men who are empathetic. We may not see them much on TRP because they're likely happy with their interactions with women. They can understand women and don't need to vilify or feel threaten by them.

Men aren't society's victims. Men as a group still hold most of the power. They just resolve their power struggles using knives, not words. But collectively they still control more, earn more, and have more positions of power.

KrispyMcSockington · 2016-07-15T08:29:53+00:00

Oh boy. Another "men are evil" thread, which shits all over men for daring to be born the way they are. This post is a typical example of a woman laying the blame for her and women's unhappiness at men. Sorry lady, but no one else is to blame but women. Women are far unhappier today than they were, say, 50 years ago. Despite all the progress made to women's freedom and equality, they're miserable. Don't blame men for your issues.

Okay, so let's do this:

The few men who acknowledge this claim that men can't not be violent because of testosterone....I don't see women going around killing each other.

Ever heard of Elizabeth Bathory? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory

Or what about these female serial killers? http://www.the-line-up.com/9-female-serial-killers/

Elizabeth is mentioned there again.

Or what about women who liked to kill other women? https://unknownmisandry.blogspot.tw/2011/12/female-serial-killers-who-liked-to.html

There are women there who raped and tortured young girls as well.

Anyway, the point is that if you're going to say that testosterone makes men violent killers, you better be sure no woman has gone on a killing spree or mutilated anyone. They have. They also abuse children at a higher rate than men do.

http://www.safehorizon.org/page/child-abuse-facts-56.html

So now that we have the so-called "inherent" violent tendencies out the way, let's have a look at your claim about women's empathy.

Here's an article by feminists talking about how women hurt other women:

http://feministing.com/2010/06/16/three-ways-that-women-hurt-other-women-and-three-ways-to-stop-it/

A few quotes:

The flip side of this theory, I imagine, is that if something bad happens to someone else we’re relieved because that means it’s less likely to happen to us.

We constantly compare ourselves to each other in superficial, usually physical ways. We are hyperaware of who is thinner, younger and holding up better.

Now these are more superficial reasons, but women are not beyond backstabbing, trash talking each other and gossiping to hurt one another: http://creativefashionglee.com/why-do-women-betray-backstab-and-trash-talk-each-other/

How much empathy do women have for other women when they destroy their reputations, attempt to steal other women's boyfriends, give backhanded compliments or are constantly in competition because they're envious and insecure? That doesn't seem like empathy at all. An acid attack on a random stranger she doesn't know? Well, you might get a little emotion. But the woman she hates because she was back stabbed and betrayed by her? Well, I hope you're the gambling sort if you're hoping for some empathy.

Yet men are completely apathetic towards each other. A man can call a man his "brother", then turn around and stab him in the back over nothing.

That's how women act. They're the ones backstabbing each other so you're looking at it from a female perspective and projecting. Men who truly are brothers would be hard pressed to do so. Want proof? Ask a gang about the importance of loyalty. Backstabbing someone is not a good idea. But what about in non-criminal terms? What about men who work well together, stick together and are able to accomplish goals and tasks? There are things like companies and sports teams that provide evidence that men are very capable of working together.

What you're thinking of is that men are competitive by nature. That is not a bad thing because it allows men to grow. The way they're treated currently, they're treated as if their nature is a problem, yet nature itself allowed us to be here for a reason. You can attempt to reason nature away all you want, but it is how it is, so deal with it.

Women would simply never do that on a large scale, not even once. The governments would just have to deal with the consequences, because you would NEVER get a significant amount of women to war with women of another nation.

Did you know that in WWII over half a million women had enlisted in the armed forces in the US?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Women-Who-Went-Eric-Taylor/dp/0586207708

That's a significant amount of women who were in support of the war. They may not have been on the front lines, but where was the sympathy for women in another nation? And they were actively supporting a war effort. There were also women who disguised themselves as men to fight in the American civil war.

Furthermore, women in America have to hope against hope that the draft bill isn't passed and that they don't get into a war because then they'll have to fight. If women don't register for the draft, it hampers things like their eligibility to get a drivers licence. Let's see how many women are willing to go to jail instead, of serving time if they need to, shall we?

As for your main question about why women and society should care about men's issues:

Men built this society. They were the muscle and blood that created the very infrastructure you use to this day. If you hate men that much, then at least acknowledge the good men have done and how you benefit from the development of technology over the years. Women can complain all they want, but they do benefit from the efforts of men. They also benefit from men's compliance because of how much they've had to concede just to keep women happy. Ironically, women are actually unhappier today than they've been compared to 50 years ago.
Men have made sacrifices women haven't had to make. This includes being injured or dying in wars to PROTECT the very women who would not do the same. Men risk their lives to save and protect others. You clearly have forgotten about those fire fighters, police officers, paramedics and other emergency response people who risk their lives to save others. Back in the day, men were the ones who put their bodies on the line to protect the women and children from the invaders. The fact that you're lumping those protectors in with the bad guys is pretty much sexist. You can say black people are more likely to kill each other, but to write them off is racist, so your view is quite sexist here.
If you don't want to care for men and their issues, then don't expect men to care about women's issues either. Men have given up positions of power, been shamed for not hiring more women in fields such as stem despite there being only so few who actively pursue stem fields and accused of misogyny for daring to disagree with feminists and women. Now, if you don't want to care about men, don't expect them to give you anything.

No special treatment in hiring practices. No protection when you're under attack. No help when you're trapped in a burning building. No one to stop the invading hordes from raping and pillaging - look at what's been happening to Europe as the refugees flood in. Those Scandinavians want to know where their men are who are supposed to protect them after years of shaming and feminizing them! Don't expect them to give up positions of power or to favour women as in affirmative action hiring policies. Don't expect them to care when you're complaining about the glass ceiling or about how hard it is to go outside without attracting male attention.

Without the men who actually care, you're far more vulnerable. If you don't want to bother with men's issues, fine. But then don't ask men to care about what's been triggering you lately or when you complain about rape culture. Men have been going along with things because they actually do care, but if they are doing so with no reciprocation at all, they may as well pack it up, go home and let women do all the work themselves. Go ahead, be miners, engineers, construction workers, garbage collectors, scientists, installers, maintenance guys and repairmen. You are welcome to work hard, braving the elements to keep your family going before being called up to save your country from someone who wants to destroy you.

Until you realise the good men have done and that they're being treated unfairly by society, and until you're willing to get off your high horse, don't expect men to give you what you want if you're not willing to even care a little about their suffering. The argument that "patriarchy hurts men too" or "but it's men hurting other men" is a convenient way for women to continue to benefit from the resources that men provide without actually caring about their issues. Men have been taught to care about women's issues for so long that they are afraid to be themselves without being labelled as toxic. Women are definitely not perfect either so elevating them to goddess status because "vagina" is not just sexist, it is ridiculous because of how much of men's compliance you need just to have the life you have.

AloneOnTheStrange · 2016-07-15T00:14:12+00:00

The question I'd like to ask you is why is the demographic of the victimisers important? Why is it important that the victims are the same gender as the victimiser?

Would you also say we shouldn't care if impoverished people commit crimes against other impoverished people?

Should we not care if drug addicts encourage other drug addicts?

Should we say it's their responsibility to sort it out, and not our's?

The reason you should care is because it's an objectively bad thing, and there are things we can do about it. Unless you are a sociopath, and can stand by with indifference while other people hurt other people, then that's reason enough to care.

It can be changed, perhaps not by just you personally, by simply caring about men's feelings the way you admit they want you to. And most importantly, not having those feelings impact your attraction to them. I know it's not exactly easy to change what you're attracted to, but I don't believe it's impossible. The only reason a women would not be attracted to men who express feelings and vulnerability is because you believe it's an objectively bad trait to have.

hedonism_bot_69 · 2016-07-15T01:02:11+00:00

I think you are wrong about a lot of thing. First I think men loyalty and aggression is on an on or off switch. Males are very loyal and caring for those in their "in" group and very aggressive and apathetic to those out of it. Women in my experience have no loyalty to anyone but themselves and their children. I dont even think women understand the concept of loyalty or sacrifice for others.

FairlyNaive · 2016-07-15T01:18:44+00:00

why should women care?

You shouldnt. Its not like someone can force you to, if you see no reason for it. Also it doesnt look like you are searching for one.

drok007 · 2016-07-15T01:33:04+00:00

Actually, female monarchs start more wars than male.

Entropy-7 · 2016-07-15T07:37:38+00:00

Men are competitive but more self-destructive in modern times. Various primitive tribes engaged in "spear wars" - thrown from a distance - but they were rarely fatal. Nowadays you dis the wrong guy and he pulls a 9 mm on you.

Otherwise, I basically agree with /u/dejour : why should anyone care about anyone?

Eulabeia · 2016-07-15T08:16:55+00:00

We just don't work that way because we have empathy.

Empathy...only for other women, clearly. You are saying this in a thread asking why anyone should give a shit about male suffering.

This is why there are so few women who have killed other women.

So few women kill others in comparison to how much men do because they can usually just get a guy to do it for her. Women rely on proxy violence because they they have the power to. Anyone with power always uses it to get others to do their dirty work for them.

betterdeadthanbeta · 2016-07-15T09:15:17+00:00

Why exactly should I care about men killing and maiming each other, if it is in your "nature" to do so?

No one wants you to care about men. They just want you to stop complaining so much and trying to get people to care about women (even more than they already do).

When more men are being beaten and robbed and so on than women, it doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense to say that women are the oppressed gender, or whatever.

ThorLives · 2016-07-15T10:32:32+00:00

Now ask her what she would think if that same woman was the victim of an acid attack. You would visibly see the sadness on her face, immediately. Very rarely do women ever wish permanent damage on other women. We just don't work that way because we have empathy.

I don't think that's a good example. The majority of people (male or female) are viscerally repulsed by the idea of permanently disfiguring someone. I bet if you asked your male friends the same question, they'd also feel disgusted by the idea of permanently disfiguring someone. They might make a joke about it or something to deflect the question, but I don't think that's a lack of empathy. Maybe you could make the argument that 99% of women and 98% of men would be repulsed by the idea of an acid attack on their enemy, and it might be true that there are more men than women who would enjoy that, but it still doesn't mean that the majority of men are okay with that.

I also think that both genders view members of their own gender as potential friends and potential rivals. Women can be pretty vicious as well. I know some women who don't really have female friends, and my guess is that other women are seen as rivals and competitors. On a few occasions, I've seen women who "ghosted" entire friendships because the other girl did something they didn't like (like flirting with a boy that they liked, even when the first girl didn't know that the second girl had a crush on the boy).

A man can call a man his "brother", then turn around and stab him in the back over nothing.

I don't think that's significantly different from what women do to each other. Women will act like best friends with some girl they just met, then turn around and attack her through gossip or some other underhanded method. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hmlPtRu1SQ

My question as a woman is... why is that my problem?

I think the reason these issues even crop up is because there's often a competition (generally started by feminists) over how terrible it is to be a woman (or man). Feminists want to talk about (and exaggerate) how difficult it is to be a woman, and that women should be shown sympathy and deferential treatment (though they don't call it that) because women's lives are so hard. It doesn't matter where the source of those bad experiences come from. For example, if men mention that attractive women have it so easy in the world (because men are bending over backwards to please them, hoping for a chance to date/sleep with them), then a woman might mention that being beautiful isn't that great because other women are jealous of your beauty (women attacking women). In that case, it doesn't matter if it's women attacking women - it's about the difficulty of that woman's life, regardless of whether that difficulty is caused from men or women. I also think some of the discussion revolves around who gets blamed, and whether people feel blamed for causing problems for other people. People don't want to get blamed, and much of the discussion ends up revolving less around the problems of being a certain gender and more about "how can I avoid being blamed for causing problems for my own/the other gender?" It's almost as if "can I be blamed for causing men's problems" is the most important issue being addressed. The paragraph the OP has written sounds like it comes from that perspective - a perspective that is "I care about whether or not I'm blamed for men's problems. If I'm not to blame, then I don't care. I don't care about the actual problems, just whether I'm being blamed for it.". This isn't unique to women, of course. I think the same thing happens with racial issues - where white people are like "I don't want to be blamed for black people's problems. If I'm not to blame, then I don't care. I don't care about the actual problems, just whether I'm being blamed for it."

But, back the issue at hand: everyone has the potential to see people of their own gender as friends or competitors. For various reasons (especially the dating environment), I think men will have a tendency to see other men as potential rivals. There was a post a few days ago about how the dating environment for men was more difficult than the dating environment for women. For example, in online dating, the odds that a woman will return a man's unsolicited message is lower than the odds that a man will respond to a woman's unsolicited message. Same thing with Tinder: women swipe right at a much lower rate than men do. I've been in situations before where I've caught guys (who I thought I could trust) hitting on my girlfriends. Catching another guy (who you think you can trust) hitting on your girl tends to push men towards the "other men are rivals" viewpoint. I think that the harsher dating environment and the potential for men to try to poach your girlfriend can push men towards seeing other men as rivals rather than allies. This isn't true across the board, of course. I have guy friends that I trust. I tend to see guy strangers as rivals - probably because I've had guy strangers show no respect towards me in the dating game. I've had numerous occasions where guys have tried (and sometimes succeeded) in intercepting some girl that I was talking to at a bar. I could list dozens of situations where that has happened. (I remember one time where a guy kept eyeing a girl while I was talking to her. We had been talking for at least 30 minutes. She got up to use the bathroom, and on her way back, he intercepted her and pulled her into a conversation. This kind of stuff is typical. I'm not saying his behavior was "good" or "evil". It's just that you can't ever trust a guy stranger to defer at all to you; they're often looking for a tactic or strategy to get some cute girl you're talking to or dating. There are all kinds of tactics that guys use to isolate girls away from other guys - usually they're subtle enough that women don't even realize it's a tactic to cockblock other men.)

In short, people's behavior depends on their environment. If you put me in a prison environment, I'd probably be a lot more mistrustful and willing to backstab other men, because I know that's what men will do to me. I think the dating environment is harsher for men, and men are pretty willing to backstab each other in dating situations because women are more scarce and valuable than men are. I should also point out that, even though there's a slight gender ratio gap ("15-24 years: 1.05 male(s)/female" ), there's also the fact that men marry younger women (which further skews the gender ratios for young single people) and when I go to clubs and bars, the ratios are often even more skewed (often 60% men or more). Sometimes I wonder if women are more likely to stay home and watch NetFlix rather than go anywhere when men can meet them. Online dating is also skewed (one test I did in my area using OKCupid showed that there were 210 men for every 100 women on OKCupid). Those kinds of numbers encourage cut-throat behavior.

ppdthrowawai · 2016-07-15T01:55:54+00:00

women have more empathy

why should women care about men's problems

Lmfao

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tallwheel · 2016-07-15T03:05:43+00:00

Testosterone is the hormone which causes men to compete with each other for women. It's what causes men to work hard to provide, create, and yes, sometimes kill when it would give them a competitive advantage or when them or their loved ones are threatened.

Without testosterone, perhaps there would be fewer wars, but humans would be all living in grass huts, and gathering enough food for the tribe to survive would be a constant struggle. (Ignoring the fact that the human race would probably just die out due to lack of sex and all the other complications that would arise from the impossible scenario of a human race without testosterone.)

Females are actually in quite a privileged position in which they can just leave all of this to men while being able to call themselves the nonviolent sex. Women are free in this modern world to go WGTOW and live on their own without men if they want. If they were to claim, though, that men do nothing good for this world and have not created the conditions that WGTOW can exist, they would be kidding themselves as much as any man who denies that women aren't necessary for reproduction of the species.

lbspredh · 2016-07-15T06:47:14+00:00

ahh okay we're playing "I didn't do it, so it's not my problem" why should I care about crime, I'm rich and live in a safe area. why should I care about rape, I'm neither the rapist nor the victim and not likely to be in my lifetime.

Also do you not think those men who don't engage in violence deserve just as much protection from it as the women who don't engage in violence? This is my main gripe with feminism, you all group me as the same as the worst kind of men simply because I have similar genetalia.

dopesk1 · 2016-07-14T23:33:17+00:00

More men born than women.

We simply have to fight, in one way or another. I'm.not a fan of it but I'm strong, so yeah.

Title	Q4RP: Is it in men's nature to destroy each other? If so, why should women and/or society care?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	13
Comments	157
Date	July 14, 2016 11:19 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4sw8k1/q4rp_is_it_in_mens_nature_to_destroy_each_other/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4rp-is-it-in-mens-nature-to-destroy-each-other-if.274029 https://theredarchive.com/post/274029

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