If women like dangerous bad boys and don't care about reliability or class, then why don't women love catcalls?

JP_Whoregan · 2015-08-28T00:31:15+00:00

(Before anyone gets on me for being "entitled" by not charitably having sex with these assholes, I'm married.)

You don't think that this tiny little fact might have an influence on how you see things?

All I will say on this topic is this:

Have you ever walked into a Walmart or a Best Buy, and seen that annoying prick who works for Verizon, DirecTV, or some other cable company, stopping everybody in their tracks and trying to get them to buy their service? These people do not actually work for the store, but they are there to sell cable service.

These sales hustlers will literally deliver their sales pitch to 100's of people upon 100's of people. And literally 99% of people respond with "not interested" or "go away" or "please get the plague". One might wonder why in the hell Verizon, or ComCast, or DirecTV, or any company would pay some sales monkey to stand in a store getting rejected all day.

Well they do it because 1% will buy from this douche, and the forthcoming revenue makes it all worth it. It's a numbers game. If that sales douche can approach 100 people an hour and get 1 of them to buy, that guy can collect 5 to 6 new customers over a 6 hour sales shift.

Cat calling is the exact same thing. The men who do it aren't stupid; they know most women will tell them to go to hell. But, ladies, there are just enough of you who are willing to give that cat-calling douche your phone number, to make the cat-calling worth the investment.

So to answer OP's question, I have to dispute the premise:

So, if women dislike catcalls,

That's just it; you're making the assumption that there aren't any women responding positively to cat calls. Your solipsism has you believing that because you don't like catcalls from attractive men, no women anywhere like catcalls from attractive men. There are women out there who see catcalls as being no different than her OKC or Tinder profile, a source of validation.

If it didn't work, men wouldn't do it. Men are nothing if not logical and pragmatic.

buttlollipop · 2015-08-28T00:47:05+00:00

Couple of reasons.

What u/jp_whoregan said. It works 1% of the time; and that's enough.
Let's assume the guy is young, in shape and good looking, like you said. It's not so much that their behavior makes them unattractive; it's the context in which it took place. It happened in broad daylight in a place where overt sexual conduct is inappropriate, frowned on or logistically infeasible. So the woman is attracted to the guy but the catcall, the manner in which the approach is made, and where it was made, puts her off. It's different in a bar or a nightspot, because women expect all manner of approaches, from meek "m'Lady's" to douchebag ass brushes.

Assume the same man, but he doesn't catcall. Instead he says "hi" and strikes up a conversation about weather, the thing you're purchasing, where you're headed, etc. Or, he walks up and says something like "I don't usually do this, but I had to stop because you're so striking, and I didn't want to miss a chance to say "hi". I really want to get a drink somewhere. How about 8 pm tonight at this cool bar I know."

He's in your face, direct, forward, and moved really fast. THat is less likely to put you off, but is still juuuust a bare step below a catcall.

buttlollipop · 2015-08-28T00:33:14+00:00

Why don't I like people that are trying to sell me stuff on street but I'm happy to go into a shop or online and buy what they are selling.

Approaching a women in a bar is much more effective then a women in the workplace why do you think that is???

ReddishBlack · 2015-08-28T01:21:14+00:00

The catcall is not a serious attempt at seduction. To me, it is more about the process of a young man developing his confidence with women he finds attractive. For the man it is about overcoming his anxiety about putting himself on the line, and sending out a verbal jab as a sort of practice run at a legitimate approach.

After the cat call, you think, hey that was kind of fun, I had a laugh, I put myself out there, and the world didn't end. It is a desensitization exercise leading up to the actual big approach.

I've done them, and have gotten smiles, and woohoos, and it is a confidence booster for both parties if delivered with flair.

buttlollipop · 2015-08-28T04:40:17+00:00

Women do like catcalls. They just don't like them when they come from men they aren't attracted to.

Let's explore this.

Let's say the janitor at a doctor's office whistles as you walk past. He's 50, bald, fat, and greasy. There's no one around in the hall. How does that make you feel?

Now let's say you are walking down the same hall and George Clooney is walking down the hall and whistles at you in the exact same way. How do you feel now?

LamiaQueen · 2015-08-28T00:33:45+00:00

Besides the fact that it's annoying? Honestly, for me, it's like the stock responses from online dating. It's zero effort and is something freely distributed. It's not special at all. It's also degrading and not in the fun way, implying they think I'm about worth a "Hey tits!" shouted from a car as opposed to a more favorable "Hey good-looking" with eye contact and a smile. I don't demand pedestalization, but if you're going to hit on me be classy about it. Bad boys can accomplish classy, catcalls cannot.

zda · 2015-08-28T04:46:32+00:00

Do women dislike it, though? A 100% of the time? Men rarely catcall me any more. I hate that our culture makes me miss it

max_peenor · 2015-08-28T06:10:59+00:00

If women like dominant assholes, why don't we swoon over guys being like "Lemme fuck that ass!" from their car window?

Because that isn't dominate. It's chumming the waters. A truly dominant male doesn't ever have to say anything like that. He simply has to select from the tails that are turned up in his direction.

Rufus_Reddit · 2015-08-28T13:35:45+00:00

... If women like dominant assholes, why don't we swoon over guys being like "Lemme fuck that ass!" from their car window?

Does anyone really think that some guy leaning out of a car window shouting, and running is 'being dominant'?

TRP plays fast and loose with definitions, but the 'call and run' scenario you describe is not what people would normally consider a dominant or assertive behavior.

Consider, for example, what 'dominant body language' typically means, and how that lines up with the posture of someone leaning out of a car. Leaning out of the car means the person has shortened themselves (unless it's an SUV), has taken cover, may be reaching across their own body and is ready to flee at a moment's notice.

The guy who shouts something deliberately offensive out of a car window and drives away is clearly not trying to close, and that's inconsistent with the contact rate hypothesis that others have proposed. Part of it is seems like some kind of harassment to get attention - like some kind of adolescent version of a ding dong ditch prank, and, really I think that people dislike it for the same reasons they dislike any other loud noise or annoyance.

[deleted] · 2015-08-28T18:53:58+00:00

or why is it that junkies and alcoholics have such unattractive girlfriends?

ManRAh · 2015-08-28T21:16:30+00:00

There's a lot of conflating of issues in this thread, as well as misunderstanding regarding the point of catcalling.

First of all. Women like catcalling in general because it is external validation. Case in point, noted Feminist Jessica Valenti writes that she misses being catcalled now that she is starting to show her age (of course, she blames society for feeling that way). Yeah, it's one example, but I have countless more from all my female friends. I've had some tell me directly that if a week goes by and not a single stranger says something, they feel like something is wrong.

Secondly, women hate specific catcalling because attention from some men is actually non-validating (or worse, due to how our brains work, attention from a low-status male makes a woman feel de-valued, because we tend to focus on the here-and-now, so she thinks "Ugh, only gross guys give me attention... now I feel gross.").

Third, the point of catcalling isn't to try to make women attracted to you, it's just trolling for women who already might find you attractive enough to engage you. From that point, their interaction might move to attraction building. As another poster said, catcalling is just "chumming the waters". Catcalling is literally just the lowest effort form of cold-approaching a woman.

Fourth, you are painting catcalling in a very specific light, and even telling other posters that clear examples of catcalling aren't catcalling by your standards. Whistling absolute counts as catcalling by definition. Saying "Good morning, beautiful!" is catcalling by definition. Saying "I want to fuck that ass!" is also catcalling by definition, it just happens to be derogatory, and more people are likely to react to it with disgust (for many reasons). Just because some forms of catcalling are more pleasant doesn't differentiate their purpose from one-another.

Fifth, and looping back, women may like catcalling in general but not like any catcall itself that they receive. In other words, they feel validation after the fact, but feel some amount of disgust in the moment. This is why someone like Jessica Valenti can spit venom about catcalls she's received, but still lament the looming end of catcalling (random male attention) in her life.

If women like dominant assholes, why don't we swoon over guys being like "Lemme fuck that ass!" from their car window?

Because that isn't dominant behavior. That's just trolling for attention. It's low-effort. Additionally, most women are smart enough to know that the efficacy of catcalling is insanely low, so automatically catcalling comes off as low-status behavior. On top of that, context matters a lot. Some poor asshole in a beater car yelling "Lemme fuck that ass!" is a lot different from a rich stud in a Porsche saying "Morning, beautiful..."

All that said, I think the biggest problem with your post is how you've pigeonholed Catcalling behavior to match a very very specific type of catcalling that you personally find disgusting.

Nazrath2112 · 2015-08-28T03:47:38+00:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK-Nr2EqYTs

You are going to want to watch about 3:45 in.

Maoist-Pussy · 2015-08-28T06:30:26+00:00

why don't we swoon over guys being like "Lemme fuck that ass!" from their car window?

Let me put this delicately: these men are outside of your social milieu.

exit_sandman · 2015-08-28T07:23:47+00:00

So, if women dislike catcalls, even from guys their age who are decent-looking, what is the missing piece of the puzzle?

Game.

There's a lot of bases you have to cover in order to get somewhere with a woman, and fumbling can totally kill every attraction (I've heard the statement "he was so cute until he opened his mouth, then everything went to hell" more than once). In that vein, catcalling is the same as terribly fumbling for most women.

Sepean · 2015-08-28T09:29:19+00:00

Catcalling is putting girls on a piedestal. It is begging for attention; please come fulfill my needs, magnificient woman, I am so thirsty.

It's not alpha.

[deleted] · 2015-08-28T12:32:07+00:00

Women don't like cat calls because the majority of cat calls come from men (normally minorities or low status) they deem beneath them. The catcall is an implication from the man that they are in the same SMV playing field and that is offensive to the woman.

However, in the rare case the cat call came from a man of obvious high status and good looks, it's taken as flattery.

[deleted] · 2015-08-28T13:14:23+00:00

Even Jessica Valenti loves cat calls.

ExpendableOne · 2015-08-28T14:23:28+00:00

Most of the women who don't like "catcalls", generally do so because they have been taught to have an overwhelmingly negative attitude towards male attention and male sexuality. There is an unhealthy level of fear, animosity and resentment that is unique to women towards male catcallers(most men don't have that kind of anger towards male or female catcallers, and most women don't have that kind of anger towards female catcallers). This is a mostly irrational but learned response, which is mostly driven by this incredibly toxic attitude that society, or most women, have towards male heterosexuality(basically seeing all things male and heterosexual as inherently malevolent, manipulative, disdainful and predatory) and by this attitude that a lot of women have towards being approached by men they have deemed to be unattractive(which they will often quickly regard as being unsuitable mates and burdens to all women-kind).

There are, never-the-less, still some women who do respond positively or neutrally to catcalling(assuming they are into assertive behaviour or already attracted to those men). There are also women who will act in an offended manner to catcalling, while still demonstrating some kind of positive physical response towards those men(which they typically try to fight/hide out of principle).

In any case, you main argument is kind of putting forth this fallacy that catcalling is the only way to be a dominant asshole. There are a lot of ways in which men can be dominant assholes that women will react far more positively too, or that women haven't developed an overt negative response to, despite still being the exact same dominant asshole behaviours that would have lead them, or other men, to catcall women. Many women will still actively reward and glorify those same "alpha" attitudes and rationalizations, as long as they are expressed in ways that trigger these overt responses from women.

PIBagent · 2015-08-28T14:40:50+00:00

So your saying when it comes to catcalling AWALT? They all hate it?

Personally I think a lot of women complain about catcalling as a type of humblebrag. If that 10 hours walking New York video is the norm the vast majority of what women call harassment is guys wishing them a good day or saying they are beautiful with maybe one or two guys being over the top rude.

ManRAh · 2015-08-28T19:29:57+00:00

Story from a co-worker this week: She went to the gym with her friend, and some guy yelled "Nice ass!" from his car in the parking lot. They both loved it, and she scoffed when I said "Wait... you weren't offended!?" with feigned shock.

The only reason you think women universally hate catcalling is because a few shrill harpies are crying about it on the internet.

Women selectively hate cat-calling.

mykonos_rm · 2015-08-28T20:07:08+00:00

They don't like catcalls coming from poor ghetto minorities like that video, or college level fratboys who lack accountability.

Different story if it comes suited man off Wall Street.

Lonny_zone · 2015-08-29T19:25:15+00:00

Some love it, some hate it. Some, like the Queen of Hypocrisy Jessica Valenti, both love it and hate it.

Lets face it, most catcallers are low value minority men, and we know women hate those. If Chad catcalled, they would act offended (or not) but love it deep down inside.

crankypants15 · 2015-08-31T11:49:30+00:00

Because after a while it just becomes annoying. Just like women treating me as nothing more than a wallet for decades became annoying. Wouldn't you get annoyed if most women just treated you as a wallet or source of entertainment or free dinners?

winndixie · 2015-08-31T18:49:55+00:00

Not all women are liked that. Some like being cat called.

StabbyPants · 2015-08-28T01:44:36+00:00

So, if women dislike catcalls, even from guys their age who are decent-looking

who says they do? the difference between a cat call and a successful approach could very well be whether she was receptive.

effortlessgrace · 2015-08-28T02:46:20+00:00

I'm no redpiller, but I don't see how cat-caller = badboy. I think that women and men generally have different connotations of the word "asshole" and what asshole behavior is. When women think of a guy who is an asshole, it's someone who is unattractive, uncouth, sleazy, annoying, that sort of thing. When men think of a guy who is an asshole, they think of a high-status type of guy who is ambitious, selfish and kind of ruthless in his interactions with women (or even people in general).

I think that even the most ardent red-piller will agree that, at least when you initially meet a woman, you ought to at least be "civil". Civility just means basic politeness and knowing how to conduct yourself appropriately, which doesn't make you a morally decent guy. This is just basic social skills - if you think that being an rude, irritating asshole to complete strangers is somehow attractive, then you're displaying the fact that you're insecure and inept at talking to people, which is obviously unattractive.

It's not like you can go up to a girl and say "Hey, you seem like a cunt. Let's go back to my place."

Anyways, I just think that we might be talking past each other because we both have very different ideas of what a "bad boy" is.

Title	If women like dangerous bad boys and don't care about reliability or class, then why don't women love catcalls?
Author	buttlollipop
Upvotes	7
Comments	124
Date	August 28, 2015 12:14 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3inynv/if_women_like_dangerous_bad_boys_and_dont_care/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/if-women-like-dangerous-bad-boys-and-dont-care.279983 https://theredarchive.com/post/279983

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