"Tinder and the Dawn of the “Dating Apocalypse” " Opinion

wtknight · 2015-08-07T12:49:40+00:00

If you're having sex on what is essentially a first date, don't expect much in terms of a relationship. It's not men that are causing women to have sex so soon, but social peer pressure from fellow women. None of these women want to be talking to their friends on Monday morning and have to say "I didn't have any sex this weekend, but I met some nice guys on dating apps." If you read the article you can see how much the women in the article are enjoying telling the stories with the other women, even if they are acting as if they don't enjoy the actual outcome of those stories. No woman wants to seem like the boring one among her group of friends. This is a big reason why I prefer introverts because then I don't have to deal with the politics of female social groups spilling over into my romantic relationships.

ExpendableOne · 2015-08-07T12:53:14+00:00

The real question to discuss is why these women look to tinder for relationships. If they were sluts trying to be bigger sluts then I'd get it but tinderellas are actually hoping to meet a guy on tinder. As poorly educated as men are in getting sex, women are even worse educated for how to get relationships. It's why they ride the CC for 10 years until their emotionally hardened train wrecks showing signs of aging and then shack up with some guy they've never been attracted to and end up less happy than men overall.

Shit, did I just white knight?

grendalor · 2015-08-07T12:55:40+00:00

A lot of TRP truth reflected there, I think, in terms of the current market setup, at least in major cities in the US.

The interesting aspect is how it displays fairly graphically the pace at which social change can move when accelerated by a technological catalyst. Tinder was initially released in September 2011, less than 4 years ago still, and then only in limited release. It was only released more broadly in 2012. Yet in that short span it has utterly transformed the urban dating scene for the young.

You can't really put a Pandora like that back into her box, I think. It has to do with scale, and how that plays on the human psyche. As is pointed out by one of the interview subjects in the article, as is the case with porn, when technology makes it effectively unlimited in scope, people (at least a significant portion of people) will "gorge" on the excess, precisely because a constraint has been removed. In other words, Tinder can be so addictive precisely because, for attractive young people, it offers an endless stream of ongoing validation -- and that's regardless of whether that person actually hooks up with anyone via the app. That is undoubtedly addictive to the human psyche, and something that was not available previously simply due to the physical limitations of how many people you come across physically in a given day. Tech transcends that limit, and as a result many people are very attracted to the validation (and the sex access) that this gives.

Is it everyone? No, it isn't. But it's certainly enough, and especially enough of the young, that it is having a substantial impact on the market as a whole. In that way it is again like porn. Does everyone look at porn a lot? No, but enough people do that it has had, and continues to have, an impact on the overall market.

[deleted] · 2015-08-07T18:49:48+00:00

“Young women’s expectations of safety and entitlement to respect have perhaps risen faster than some young men’s willingness to respect them,” says Stephanie Coontz, who teaches history and family studies at the Evergreen State College

What drivel. There are plenty of men who respect women. They are the ones who women refuse to sleep with however.

Men are just people, and people respond to incentives. Women reward the behavior that they complain about, then write long-winded diatribes about how bad things are getting. Run hamster, run.

GODZILLAFLAMETHROWER · 2015-08-07T12:23:51+00:00

The only thing I find annoying here is the girls complaining that they feel undervalued. They are hooking on Tinder, FFS. What do they expect.

Second, it's mostly speaking about the New York scene. I don't see it in my city (different country altogether), even though Tinder is a thing here.

Finally, I find extremely dumb the knee-jerk reaction of saying "but is it really fair for the girls to ease the hook up process that way? They lost their power in the game".

Tough shit. No one force the girls to use it. Men of course will flock to it if it speeds up the process and make it less of a chore to get on the prowl. In the end I could not give less of a shit that the girls lost that advantage over men. Equality!

And yeah, men are also hurt in the process. I'm fucking tired of women assuming that they can expect emotional commitment from men. Either you hook up and don't expect it and that's perfectly fine, or you don't hook up and stay seriously involved in your relationships.

Oh, and also there is still this impression that the girls in the article expect to be messaged and approached. I'm fucking glad I don't know these kind of people and the feminist circle I frequent is more fair, more tired of these bullshit. TRP seems happy with this state of things.

ThorLives · 2015-08-07T18:26:29+00:00

I read the article. It was a little annoying because I'm a guy and my 20s were nothing like that, so it's annoying to read about people who are having an abundance of sexual options. Admittedly, Tinder didn't exist back then.

Of course, there's a few things to remember when reading this article:

First, it's in New York City. New York is one of the few places in the country where women outnumber men (although the ratios vary from neighborhood to neighborhood, but Manhattan in particular has a surplus of 20-something women) - see http://visualizing.nyc/nyc-zip-codes-singles-map/ . (I don't know why the numbers are so screwed up there, maybe "Sex and the City" influenced a number of women to move there.) I suspect that the author of the article was interviewing women and men in one of the female-dominated areas. This gives men the upper hand in the dating market. I've heard that there are a lot of women in New York who are also just looking for hookups. I've actually heard the complaint from men that women there don't want commitment, they just want to hookup and will ignore any commitment-minded guys. The combination of the two (too many women, and too many women who just want to sleep around) makes it a terrible dating market for commitment-minded women.

Sadly, I spent my 20s in one of the worst dating markets. When I moved here (and I didn't realize things were so bad), the gender ratios were 150 men for every 100 women. When you limit it to "single men" and "single women", the numbers get even worse. Assuming that 60% of those women were in relationships with an equal number of men, it means the ratio of single men to single women was 90 single men for every 40 single women. As a guy, you generally had to date-down or remain single. Women most definitely had the upper hand in the dating market. Even if Tinder existed back then, you wouldn't have seen this stuff going on - guys wouldn't be hooking-up left and right with women, and girls wouldn't have problems finding commitment.

You have to take these gender ratios into account when looking at all the hookups going on in a place like New York, because it's not like that for the other 95% of the US.

Edit: We know from other sources what happens when gender ratios are screwed up:

Patterns of sexual activity should change drastically with the balance between supply and demand, such as the sex ratio. When the pool of eligible women (that is, young, unattached female adults) is much larger than the pool of eligible men, supply can be said to exceed demand. The price will therefore drop, which means that men will be able to obtain sex without giving or promising much in return. In contrast, a shortage of eligible women relative to men means that demand outstrips supply, and so the price is likely to be high... A well-known study of sex ratios by Guttentag and Secord (1983) found that sexual norms fluctuate in tandem with the relative proportions of men and women. Their findings lend valuable support to the view that sex is a female resource. They found that when women are in the minority and hence can dictate the terms of romance, the price of sex is relatively high. Shortages of women (such as in the Wild West or in modern-day China) produce relatively prudish societies in which premarital and extramarital sex is relatively rare. In contrast, when there is an oversupply of women relative to men (such as following a major war, or in some low-income minority communities today), women are unable to expect much in exchange for sex, and instead a permissive sexual climate allows extramarital and premarital sexuality to flourish. Put another way, the price of sex rises and falls in tandem with the sex ratio in a way that indicates that women constitute the suppliers of sex — precisely as the female resource hypothesis asserts.

http://search.bwh.harvard.edu/concourse/900/articles/BaumeisterSexEcon.pdf

Edit: I just noticed that she does mention at the very beginning of the article that she's in Manhattan.

dragoness_leclerq · 2015-08-07T13:20:34+00:00

Jesus Christ, if I don't end up married to the BF or we break up I am joining a fucking nunnery. I feel like a little old lady catching a glimpse of Jersey Shore for the first time. Dear god, is this what it's really like out there? Is that what people do??

That article (though tbf, I only made it about halfway through) is one of the most depressing, vacuous and disgusting things I have ever read. It's like people have become no more than empty-headed little sex dispensaries with no hobbies or interests beyond showing their genitals to strangers. But I digress....

“It’s rare for a woman of our generation to meet a man who treats her like a priority instead of an option,” wrote Erica Gordon on the Gen Y Web site Elite Daily

LOLOLOL duh you dumb bitch, that's because you are an option.

It is the very abundance of options provided by online dating which may be making men less inclined to treat any particular woman as a “priority,”

This I kind of agree with only because I think they're talking about women both on and OFF OLD. Which is a pretty fair assessment and one of the reasons why I disagree with TRP that just about any woman can find a relationship fairly quickly with at least some beta guy. Because that's not true, at least not in my experience.

When there is a surplus of women, or a perceived surplus of women, the whole mating system tends to shift towards short-term dating.

Ditto for my previous comment. Tinder &co. really do give a lot of people (men and women) the idea that there are plenty of 'hot singles in your area' whether there is an extreme level of abundance or not.

Men are making that shift, and women are ~~forced~~ choosing to go along with it in order to mate at all.”

[strikethrough + emphasis mine.]

Again, this is true, kind of, but there's also the third option of choosing not to play at all. Or at the very least, choosing to play as conservatively and as wisely as possible which I find way too many women simply refuse to do. Hookup culture has a lot of women thinking they can fuck their way into a relationship but conversely, it also has a lot of women who really have fucked their way into relationships. We see it all the time. Not every time, but often enough.

men still have the power to decide when something is going to be serious and when something is not—they can go, ‘She’s girlfriend material, she’s hookup material.’ … There is still a pervasive double standard. We need to puzzle out why women have made more strides in the public arena than in the private arena.”

Because men have free will? We (meaning women) get to decide when something is going to be sexual or not and men get to decide whether it's going to be serious.

I just...oh my good god there's so much article left but I can't even do it anymore. I'm tapping out. I need to go lie down for a while.

edit: Okay wait, the article started to get pretty juicy right when I was throwing in the towel, I think my ability toucan just flew back, I might come back with more to say in a bit.

RichardPalma · 2015-08-07T14:04:07+00:00

I'm not really sure what you are looking for as a response. I've used tinder in the past (not really looking for anyone new right now) and it's pretty much like these guys say. I'm not in New York, I'm in a southern Baptist town, and there aren't a lot of women on tinder (you can swipe right always and never run out of likes), but still it is really easy to find at least a hookup or two per week. Probably more, but that was always my limit for how much free time I had and I wasn't obsessive like the guys in the article seem. If I filled my dance card, I'd stop using the app. My point is, nothing in this article surprised me.

But as far as my impression of the article overall: it kind of seemed like a high brow slut shaming. As in "Look at what these girls are doing, and it's destroying society, and they don't even like it, so you shouldn't get on tinder either." A cautionary tale to dissuade young women from going this route. Because if only we could stop women from being sluts, we could get society back on track. Yeah, right.

One thing I think I might be missing is a prerspective on how pervasive this is. Like I said, Not a lot of users in my area. Plus, I'm in my late 30s so I have no idea what kids these days are into. Might be that all the college kids do this and I'm outside their age band. But no-one I know uses Tinder (other than the woman I'm dating from there) or at least no one talks about it. I've brought it up a few ties and most people think it's a nerd thing because it has to do with computers. I should ask their kids, I guess.

Xemnas81 · 2015-08-07T15:40:07+00:00

I can't imagine how many pathogens are spread amongst the population through Tinder and Grindr

On a more serious note, one musician in my social circle is a younger yuppie, and I've heard her use that word: fuckboy. I'm older: I didn't know wtf it meant. I used to think it meant a nerdy guy like Steve Urkel or Napoleon Dynamite.

To me, it is apparent that hookup culture militates against women's rights as well as men's rights. It benefits apex alpha males and alpha females to the detriment of betas - male or female.

It's no surprise how PUAhate and the "aesthetics" subculture emerged just as Instagram and the selfie was on the rise. Zyzz was an example of how rigid beauty standards take a toll on young beta males' lives.

Maybe it's my tradcon side coming out but people create "fuckboys" and "sluts" by participating in hookup culture, period.

lbspredh · 2015-08-07T16:27:20+00:00

nothing has really changed, it's just the dynamic of dating/hookups is much less discreet these days

gopher_glitz · 2015-08-08T01:50:08+00:00

The men in this article are the top percent of men. It just goes to show how invisible most men are.

"But every boy I’ve ever met is a fuckboy.”

Meaning every boy she's ever thought was attractive and desirable has loads of options. The ones that aren't are invisible and are probably fucking sad leg bread land whales or are still virgins.

[deleted] · 2015-08-07T10:36:34+00:00

I don't think it has anything to do with dating/gender frustration. Tinder is a hookup app, if the guys are not concerned with giving a one night stand an orgasm or dating them this should be perfectly ok because tinder cannot guarantee these things for women from a legal standpoint.

mrcs84usn · 2015-08-07T14:48:04+00:00

This article hits kind of close to home. And those of you who are claiming these problems only arise from hookup aps, you'd be wrong. Men will hit it and quit it regardless of the medium they use to meet women. Just like most men have a difficult time figuring out how to get laid, most women are clueless when it comes to getting commitment. They hope that one night of passion will be so magical and amazing that the man of their dreams will drop every other girl in his phone the morning after. I'd guess less than 10% of relationships actually begin this way, but women see others who have won that romantic lottery so they keep trying.

max_peenor · 2015-08-07T14:14:17+00:00

If trp is for real, how is it that all those men are having sex so frequently and so easily? The women are even claiming 90% or more of young men in NYC are having sex all the time. The article illustrates a short man with no money who lives with his parents who is having lots of sex.

If this article is true or even half-true, then trp is wrong.

The article seems every uneven. The men are saying women are ghosting them too - disappearing after sex and not keeping in contact.

Also, if these women really wanted relationships, what the heyall are they doing on tinder? There are dating sites for serious relationships - tinder isn't one of them.

I smell a beat up story.

[deleted] · 2015-08-07T20:35:37+00:00

Meh. Hookup culture has always existed. I don't know why people think this is new. So they moved to a new medium to find it. It doesn't mean the end of days.

VermiciousKnidzz · 2015-08-07T13:52:56+00:00

TIL some people prefer hooking up and some people prefer dating. /s

Xemnas81 · 2015-08-07T14:45:49+00:00

Lol Elite Daily is Redpill gold. But I don't think that confirms bio-troofs of AWALT, rather that my generations is full of a bunch of spoiled hypocritical bitches. Fuck right off princess.

The solution is for some real, actual egalitarian women to give them a proper metaphorical slap about what they 'deserve' and what constitutes a 'real man', while men continue to go MGTOW.

Title	"Tinder and the Dawn of the “Dating Apocalypse” " Opinion
Author	arguitop
Upvotes	12
Comments	83
Date	August 7, 2015 10:22 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3g4571/tinder_and_the_dawn_of_the_dating_apocalypse/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/tinder-and-the-dawn-of-the-dating-apocalypse.280450 https://theredarchive.com/post/280450

Comments