Do some RPillers believe that women and society intentionally lie to trap men as BB?

Ultramegasaurus · 2015-07-31T17:42:42+00:00

I too believe it's not a conscious conspiracy. I think it's because both men and women hate admitting women are instinct-driven creatures of nature like men, especially in the West. We love to pretend women are morally superior when it comes to sexual relations: Men are shallow brutes who only look for tits and ass, while women are so civilized and look for kindness and trust.

Yes, media and culture tells women they ought to like nice guys. But when they meet them, there's usually no spark. And that's how the "Nice Guy" (don't forget the scare quotes!) originated. It's a strawman designed to rationalize women's dislike for nice guys: he is assigned traits which make him "objectively" unloveable: evil, entitled, boring, unhygienic. The truth is most nice guys simply lack the sufficient physical (e.g. height, muscle mass) and character (e.g. dominance, ambition) traits which most women really prefer, but make them seem brutish and primitive.

caius_iulius_caesar · 2015-07-31T18:07:29+00:00

What /u/Epicureanist said.

My view on it:

Of course it is not a conspiracy as in "women meet and make plans how to keep beta guys from seeing the alpha world and what role women play in it."

When I say it seems like a conspiracy, I mean:

"The number of wrong messages a beta guy gets throughout his life is so fucking high that after he wakes up and looks back on what he was told, he cannot help but see it as a "concerted effort to keep him in the dark". I.e. a conspiracy.

The sources of this wrong messages are manyfold: Like /u/HappilySingleWoman said, movies and media in general. They perhaps play the biggest role in giving betas a wrong idea of the dating market and you could give many different examples of how they do it.

Then there's mothers who have been burned and project their wishes of a caring husband on their son, raising him to be emasculated.

There's the female friend who talks about Chad and how she hates him for "only using her for sex"...but she doesn't mention that the sex was awesome and she would fuck him again in a heartbeat.

There's relationship advice all over the internet that makes you believe that you should be a total doormat. (often written by women, which later confirms the beta guy that women are banding together. Doesn't matter if rightfully so).

Then there's the female friend who actually wants to keep him in the dark because she wants him to stick around as a last resort.

In the aggregate it really seems like a conspiracy. A concerted effort to keep you in the dark, when it's just many sources who give you wrong information for completely different reasons.

exit_sandman · 2015-07-31T17:59:17+00:00

Women think they want nice guys. And they actually might want one until they're saddled with the sap for a while. Then they wonder why they're totally not attracted to them after awhile. And attribute it to the socially acceptable reasons like "He's not the same, he doesn't do x , x, or x for me anymore." When really it's the je ne sais quoi. It's not you it's me. Media and the western dynamic reinforces this as well.

What you ideologically want, and what you're biologically attracted to are two separate things.

But honestly, I'm sure some women talk out of both sides of their mouths and genuinely know the score , but give fake lip service. But I think that vast majority don't understand the reality of the situation and it's not intentional.

TRPThrowRug · 2015-07-31T17:55:22+00:00

Not sure about society or women, but Religion, definitely.

As for the rest, yes kinda. Two generations ago before birth control became mainstream, sex meant children.

And children from young couples meant a significant financial burden on their parents and grandparents.

As such, as liability guarantors, parents and grandparents felt they had a lot of Say in choosing responsible unburdensome men for them to pimp their daughter out to. (The church also being a fallback)

And this pimping has been going on for many thousands of years.

However in the societal blink of an eye, now you got birth control, abortions, and government mandated safety nets, and child support / alimony taken straight out of paychecks with no fault divorce.

As such there's still the impetus for society to demand these workhorse men. However instead of being rewarded, these men are being drained dry, and then kicked to the curb.

Ultimately a system originally designed to prevent women from being desperate and destitute, has been hijacked by circumstance and rational self interest to make men desperate and destitute.

_-

That said, this election cycle, I absolutely believe the Title IX courts madness, rape hysteria, and wagegap bull is a power play.

Single mothers and rabid feminists are a captive voting block

throwinout · 2015-07-31T17:39:26+00:00

It is analogous to the "Disney fairy tales" lying to women that some feminists talk about. It isn't on the level of a conspiracy theory. The patriarchy? Now that is a conspiracy theory.

Women shouldn't believe those fairy tales, and men shouldn't believe those "nice guy" stories.

Xemnas81 · 2015-07-31T17:38:44+00:00

1.) Intention

Intention is hard, almost impossible at times, to prove. Proving intention usually requires access to a persons thoughts or certain assumptions about the rationale of an action.

Discussions about intention will probably boil down to anecdotes:

TRP: negative anecdotes
TBP/Purple: positive anecdotes

Anecdotes are useful only when they help us come to a conclusion about the true proportion. If most anecdotes about x are positive, then it's fair to assume x is positive; this of course assuming that the anecdotes come from a SRS of people.

2.) Conspiracy

However that is all not part of some "conspiracy theory" to keep men as beta bux.

No one thinks women are meeting together in alleyways and basements to discuss how their plans or how they're going to keep beta orbiters. This imagined scenario of women knowingly colluding would actually be better. The true reality is much scarier. Women do not need to meet and discuss strategies; a large amount of them (6/10 or 7/10 possibly more) have the same responses to questions like:

What are women attracted to?
How should men act in romance and sex?

It doesn't matter who you ask. Whether it's your sister, mother, friend, etc. Most women have the same response. Listening to their advice generally leads to failure for the men and validation for the women.

Outside of that look at the general attitude society has regarding men's responsibilities in sex/romance:

Men:

Men need to take responsibility and marry
Why aren't men stepping up to the plate
Having sex without a relationship is often abusive

Women:

Flowers, attention, a date, and a deep emotional connection don't mean sex. Just because men invest emotionally doesn't mean they deserve sex.
Dating a guy, accepting gifts and courtships from him, etc. is not harmful nor abusive. Men should know better.
Men cannot and should not judge women on their sexual history.

There is a strong bias towards women.

Iramadance · 2015-07-31T18:16:59+00:00

I don't think it's intentional. It's nature

user6580 · 2015-08-01T02:28:57+00:00

The unintentionally lie.

"I just want a nice guy" actually means "I want a sexy alpha male to be nice to me".

Beta's go through life thinking they need to be "nice" to get girls which both genders can agree is complete bullshit. No if you want girls you have to better than the men around you.

[deleted] · 2015-07-31T20:35:26+00:00

Red pill doesn't say a whole lot about other people's conscious mental states. We just focus on behavior.

ECoast_Man · 2015-07-31T22:12:19+00:00

They don't intentionally lie. That would imply that women are aware of what they are doing and it is calculated. The hamster just does this naturally.

grendalor · 2015-07-31T20:10:13+00:00

When people express it as a conspiracy, it means they are misunderstanding it.

TRP doesn't hold that women or society are intentionally trying to prevent lesser males from breeding. TRP holds that everyone is wired up to get their genes optimally spread, but that this is not consciously the motive for specific actions. It's the underlying wiring.

So when a woman finds a man sexually attractive, she experiences that as attraction and desire, obviously. At the conscious level that is what it is. What drives that attraction below the conscious level is genetic fitness, which is the underlying wiring for what people generally find attractive. Of course there is a good deal of individual variation, but there are also constants. But it isn't conscious. Noone consciously evaluates a potential mate based on genetic fitness -- it's the underlying wiring that drives what is consciously experienced as attraction.

In a society like ours where most of the constraints around sexuality have been removed, and the consequences have been made more opt-in than at any time in history, this more primal wiring comes to the foreground more often, because other factors are less important than they were historically.

GaiusScaevolus · 2015-07-31T20:53:20+00:00

I think our modern western system has a strong vested interest in encouraging men to be betas, as alphas/playboys are not exactly stable building blocks for society.

I don't think most women are intentionally dishonest, but I think there are some who realize that they're using beta nice guys, which is why some women get so defensive if the subject comes up.

[deleted] · 2015-07-31T23:58:53+00:00

Lets face it, if you find RP after being told you are too nice to date or having a gf go back to an "abusive" ex, it is easy to feel that women lie intentionally.

The alternative is that they don't do it consciously which isn't an improvement in the fellas eyes.

Men that have no trouble getting women don't seek the RP.

Billybob25112 · 2015-08-01T03:01:35+00:00

SOME women lie intentionally. SOME do not. Being female does not mean you are incapable of lying.

buttlollipop · 2015-07-31T18:26:39+00:00

lol no. In every single romantic comedy, the leading man is good-looking and the leading lady is good-looking. Disney princes are good-looking. Parents will occasionally soften the blow of reality by telling you "Just be yourself" (which I, a woman, heard all the time). People may, in fear of seeming shallow, claim to only care about personality. But there's no evidence women are lied to any less than men are. I honestly don't know how you could think looks don't matter, or that sexual attraction is based only on how nice you are, for 20 years of your life.

If "society" was regularly marketing ads showing flabby, out-of-shape bald men being portrayed as sex symbols (and not jokingly) then sure. But just look at the men who are considered sex symbols- this isn't happening.

Women do say they want nice guys and they aren't lying, they're just omitting "Who are really hot too." Similarly, whenever I ask my male friends what they want in a girl- if I'm about to set them up- they talk about her being nice and intelligent but never mention looks, even though I know that's like 99% of it.

People mostly lie to avoid appearing shallow or offending others. Men and women are both amazingly shallow.

[deleted] · 2015-07-31T19:17:43+00:00

The problem with saying that women want nice guys is that most women actively dislike nice guys. At most a woman is indifferent to nice guys. A man who tries to be a good person is only sabotaging his attraction with women. He may have success with women but he succeeds in spite of his good guy traits, not because of them. Women encourage men to be evil basically. However living a good life involves more than being able to attract women. It's better to like yourself and to feel non remorse about your actions than to be liked by women but to feel constantly guilt-ridden because you're a bad person.

thereddespair · 2015-07-31T18:51:15+00:00

i heard this funny theory that its something related to our nutrition. why a lot of men are turning more and more blue, as it hurts their hormonal balances.

Maoist-Pussy · 2015-07-31T17:51:11+00:00

Women do not lie intentionally. Rather, euphemism, mask, misdirection and self-deception is simply part of a woman's makeup.

wont_tell_i_refuse · 2015-08-01T00:56:18+00:00

Yes. "I've only had sex with like 5 guys" is the go-to.

obstinatebeagle · 2015-08-01T03:09:04+00:00

If you don't believe it you could just read some of the field reports at /r/theredpill - especially those taken from other subs like /r/relationships which demonstrate BB perfectly.

[deleted] · 2015-08-01T06:44:28+00:00

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained with stupidity.

Hint: SJW, PC, and other feel-good acronyms are all under "stupidity"

wtknight · 2015-07-31T18:22:53+00:00

I don't think TRP pushes some people to become overly paranoid. I think these people were already over-sensitive and prone to anxieties about relationships to begin with, and they use their communications with each other to feed off of each other's anxieties. There is also a fear of lack of control when it comes to being in a relationship and being emotionally vulnerable to another person. TRP is a defense mechanism to stave off anxiety and uncertainty. While TRP realize that they are somewhat at fault for their issues, it also helps that they scapegoat most of the problems with their human interactions to AWALT, while at the same time hypocritically not believing in AMALT due to the fact that they believe that they can truly change themselves by "taking the Red Pill."

MsLilith · 2015-07-31T19:11:20+00:00

Do you think TRP pushes some people to become overly paranoid ? What do you think about conspiracy theories like these ?

Yes. I don't know how they don't see it. The more fearful and paranoid they become the more "beta" they become as well. It makes me giggle.

Title	Do some RPillers believe that women and society intentionally lie to trap men as BB?
Author	HappilySingleWoman
Upvotes	15
Comments	144
Date	July 31, 2015 5:24 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3fba20/do_some_rpillers_believe_that_women_and_society/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/do-some-rpillers-believe-that-women-and-society.280601 https://theredarchive.com/post/280601

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