What could I, as a woman, do to understand the red pill?

arguesforarguing · 2014-08-19T03:41:55+00:00

I have been told on here before that I dislike the red pill because I don't understand it. At times it's been the go to response when I point out any...

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points21 points 11 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

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[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

[–]DoldenbergBlue Pill Man8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

Because there are cowed men out there with openly disrespectful spouses who suffer because they keep doing what their wives say they want, thinking this is the good and right thing, and yet the wives keep treating them worse. This is the dynamic my parents had, unfortunately, and yet nowhere did I see it ever addressed except on "red pill" sites. Yes, there are husbands/boyfriends who treat their wives/gfs the same way, but popular culture is a lot less tolerant of this dynamic compared to the reverse.

One example: A coworker told my husband about how he left the scene of an auto accident to get jr to little league on time, because facing police ire over this was less threatening to him than having his wife treat him coldly for a week if the kid missed practice. That is just effed up, but this sort of dynamic is unfortunately not rare in my own experience.

And because many women don't "get" how important respect is to a man, and how hurt men are by having to beg for sex, because for many men, sex is how they feel loved and needed. Again, in popular culture, these needs are treated with derision or denial.

And finally, because popular culture tends to put the blame for relationship problems automatically on men.

[–]DoldenbergBlue Pill Man4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I am a grown woman, in my fifth decade of life, and yet never have I seen this stuff mentioned in sex-specific contexts anywhere else, with one exception I will mention at the end of this post.

Instead, I have seen too many instances among friends and coworkers of a wife scolding her husband in front of others, talking down to him like he's a kid and with condescension and contempt, and yet nobody says anything or blinks (yes, even me, until I started to come around to more "red pill" thinking). Do you think if the situation were reversed that would be the case? I don't.

And this kind of treatment is very damaging to a lot of men, but people in general seem not to talk about it much. I started to realize this after reading the work of Dr. John M. Gottman. He researches relationships in new ways that nobody had thought of before-- in a clinical setting. Everybody here should read his books.

[–]DoldenbergBlue Pill Man3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

I am a grown woman, in my fourth decade of life, and yet never have I seen this stuff mentioned in sex-specific contexts anywhere else.

Just to make this clear, what are we even talking about here anymore.

Because one of the biggest hipocrisies of TRP is that they absolutely don't understand self-improvement. Everything they do has the ultimate goal of getting laid. They'll talk about being independent from women all the time, and then spend all day "improving themselves" to appeal to women.

So are we talking about actual self-improvement being discouraged? People telling you to not have hobbies, don't do sports, don't get better at stuff you're genuinely interested in? Because, again, if your whole life experience consists of this happening to men, your experience might not be representative of the average person.

So, when talking about it in the "sex specific" context, do you mean specific techniques of TRP? Like holding frame, dread game and so on, that are somehow labeled as self-improvement? I tell you what, those are hypocritical as well. Why? Because they have nothing to do with confidence. Every single TRP technique is a farce that is supposed to make you appear as if you're confident and dominating when you actually aren't.

If the latter is the case, I think we can be very happy that it is only discussed on the giant echo chamber that is TRP.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]DoldenbergBlue Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]niczarRed Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]StabbyPantsPillhead0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]DoldenbergBlue Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

No it doesn't. Literally nothing on TRP is about actually improving yourself for the sake of improving yourself. It's about learning techniques to get laid, improving "SMV" (which supposedly helps you get laid) and discussing why men don't get laid while women supposedly just have to lie there waiting for a wanton dick to fill her up.

Just look at every single thread about LTR where people start advocating "Get some plates", completely missing the point and just proving that TRP isn't about being the best man you can be but about getting laid a lot.

Think about how TRP advocates changing / faking your personality (dread game, amused mastery, Dark triad, etc.) - again, to get laid - which is actually counterproductive to self-improvement.

When you actually think that "I want to get laid a lot so I will lose interest in getting laid, meaning that my top priority isn't just to get laid anymore (but to maintain that, I will have to continue getting laid)" is somehow sound logic, I would advise you to rethink your personal beliefs on how logic works.

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Okay. If I only take what I need of TRP, I got "self improvement", which TRP only pretends to address and "don't be a total doormat". I think neither are exclusive nor central to TRPs average content submission.

Its almost there's 10 years worth of content already there. Hundreds of books, 200+ other sites, with many focused exclusively on specific game and self-improvement, and that /r/TheRedPill itself is only the reddit hub that discusses this manosphere topics and introduces people to it(they pop the pill into the manosphere, so to speak). Start following links. If you don't find stuff worth reading, give up.

So why exactly do we need TRP if we have to cut out about 99% of the content to get to the juicy bits that we can find anywhere else, and much easier?

Most people don't rely on the news feed of RP. That's like saying /r/Islam gets its religion from its news feed. Or that /r/C25K gets its regimens from the news feed. I don't even understand why you are expecting that.

[–]DoldenbergBlue Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

So, okay, /r/TheRedPill is a sub for news. Okay. Now how are the average news we see on TRP related to self-improvement?

:/ Why should it be? Do you expect every last second of every day to be based around finding stuff? The principle of "don't fix what isn't broken applies". If there is 10 years worth of material already there, more content than anyone should have time to read, than there is no excuse for anyone to say "where do I find this self-improvement' or "there isn't enough advice". And new content is produced at the rate people are creative enough to do it.

TRP is the reddit hub for the manosphere, in the way /r/battlefield3 is the reddit hub for battlefield 3. Sure they produce content and OC, but they don't harp on about how to play every second of every day.

Also, I didn't mean literal news. I meant, its like a news feed, but for discussion. I suppose a better word would be frontpage. It escaped my head. I'll take my ESL pass for this mistake.

[–]DoldenbergBlue Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Everyone would be very confused if the majority of content on /r/battlefield3 was related to Call of Duty.

lmao. I'm guessing you didn't go there when it was actually directly competing with COD. Doesn't excuse it, but then... that's sort of what's called a "Signal-to-noise ratio" on RP.

So why is it considered normal that the majority of content on TRP isn't related to self-improvement but to bashing women?

From my link elsewhere in the thread, "Scorpion and The Frog" I attempted to explain RP's functions to outsiders in an official capacity. While mods have done so dozens of times, they've done so informally, and try to keep it hushed as much as possible. RP has more to it that meets the eye. It is a strange and nuanced beast.

If you didn't read it, nor caught any of the numerous mod statements on this*, I explained the current purposes of /r/TheRedPill to be three-fold, I'll give it here in more detail:

1) Introduction to red pill ideas, and the manosphere at large. They pop the pill into that sphere so to speak. It also has elaborate mechanisms to filter out the people it doesn't want(I'll explain later, I'm writing this in a hurry before sleep, but if you're curious, usually its stuff like this). It is the reddit hub of it, and links within it can take you to a lot of places that suit your goals. Yes, many of them don't even sound like they're misogynists. A lot of them do sound like it but aren't. A lot of them straight up are. Many choose what they like.

2) Incubate mature RP attitudes. Allow discussion on RP ideas between like-minded people. It also allows OC to be given a constant, self-refreshing platform instead of having the ideas be entrenched in a few celebrities. RP helps RP evolve with a changing market. It also allows discussion of normal phenomenon from a RP perspective, allowing people to apply what they learned, via trial and error. A secondary purpose you could argue is this is monitoring the market, but really, (to phrase it unflatteringly so you'll be more biased to consider it, because this is kind of important) it is there because it gives RP a reason to exist.

3) RP serves as group therapy. You can laugh, but it is de facto, meant to be containment. We are locked in there with a lot of angry men who need an ounce of sympathy and help. We know what we're doing though. We don't believe shaming them will help nor disappear the problem. We believe it is something that will subside with maturity. We believe even though the end destination may just be sleeping around with a lot of women in their minds for now, RP is objectively not a voodoo hypnogun. It takes work and effort. It only adds efficiency and a plan to your efforts. The part where its effective is it has a strong hook. Results can be addicting from the get-go. And so, while the destination may be reached and found to be less than worthwhile, the journey still removes a lot of the disappointment, and leads to many benefits overall. If they gain no improvement from their time among us, they aren't any worse off than when they started, and may leave or be banned on their own.

EDIT: * I just remembered, one of these was quoted by a BPer on PPD yesterday. Here you go

[–]DoldenbergBlue Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

EDIT: * I just remembered, one of these was quoted by a BPer on PPD yesterday. Here you go

See, this is why no one can take you serious. Even your mods outright reveal that yes, you are full of hate, no matter what you call it. And you don't even see any problem posting this because it seems completely normal and moderate to you.

Women are inferior to men in almost all aspects which is why society expects infinitely less from them than it does men. We are sexist because we identify the significant differences between men and women, we do not however, hate women. We simply don't buy the feminist rhetoric that they can do what we can do (and remain psychologically healthy and still act feminine) and yadda yadda.

You tell me TRP serves as group therapy? For men who need an ounce of sympathy and help? FOR WHAT? For the horrors of accepting that you, as a man, are naturally superior to women? In which bizarro world do we live where "You're so awesome, you go champ" is a bitter pill to swallow?!

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[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

EDIT 2: I just remembered the number 2 all-time RP post(from archwinger): Men Are Not Happy.

A while ago, I attempted this question as honestly as I could on the RP sub:
http://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/29il6q/the_scorpion_and_the_frog/

I also got gold for this PPD one, so someone thought it was okay, it might be relevant here too: http://np.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2do7rl/the_post_that_inspired_rpunchingmorpheus/cjri065

Note, to understand the theories, you should read them directly. But to understand the sub itself, and the negative parts you hear, read these. Willing to answer questions too.

EDIT: inb4 karmawhoring. I'm linking myself because I don't have a ready save-list of posts that are relevant to the topic... except my own history. I changed it to .np links if you'd like anyway.

[–]ILU250 shades of purple2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]DoldenbergBlue Pill Man7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Wait, the guy claiming all "women hate each other, passionately" is somehow uncontroversial?

Or stuff like:

Don't get me started on teachers. While a few of them are actually good with kids, teachers are some of the worst, trashiest people I know. They make next to no income, making them absolutely reliant on their men, they gather at their local drinking spots every weekend to complain about how much they hate their students, their bosses, their men, and any members of their social circle not currently present, there's an entire culture of ra-ra teachers are special shit circulating throughout the internet, and while yes, a scant few teachers had the calling, most teachers ended up as teachers because they couldn't find work doing anything else. Teaching is one of the worst careers for developing maternal instinct or good relationship skills.

Or this:

But anyway, it's not the disgust with a pedophile that would turn a valuable man away. It's just the red flag of past abuse. Women with sexual trauma in their past tend to grow up to have sexual issues. Some are extreme prudes, some are extreme sluts, some act out in other ways and turn to drugs, alcohol, thrill-seeking, or various other ways of managing their control issues. You never know what you're getting into.

That was just the first page of his comment history, btw. Lets look at his top-voted ones.

This thread where he brags about doing the household chores one day and therefore proving that women truly sit on their sofas eating bon-bons all day.

This thread where he tells us that TRP is pro-woman because it offers them choices (ignoring the fact that TRP-users repeatedly criticize every choice a woman makes) while feminism/anti-red-pill does not (because he needs that strawman for his argument to make any goddamn sense)

Seriously, if that's the most easy to empathize RedPiller, that just drives home the point that every barely decent content on TRP is hidden under a giant pile of crap.

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

This is the part about BP I hate. You just quote things, and expect me to care. Not just that, but see precisely where and how something is wrong or why I should hate this person too. Usually if we discuss it further, it boils down to "percieved misogyny = thought-crime and you're a shitlord". Explain to me why you find issue with those posts. Please make a habit of doing that. This is a debate sub, not TBP. That shouldn't be the standard here. When you make a claim, the burden of evidence is on you. But like always, I'll have to accept it anyway. Lets dig in.

So he said something you don't like once or twice, or ten times. bear with me a little: Is he a politician? He's just some guy shooting the shit in a forum of like-minded people. When he comes onto PPD or posts outside RP, does he make the same offensive remarks? He expects one audience to "get it", the other he provides reasoning for his opinions. For the former, he is just like you when you're in TBP. For the latter, you could stand to do the same, just saying.

Now to the quotes: Do you honestly believe he is wrong about every teacher? Do you honestly believe, even though its stated in your quote, he believes this about all of them? Really silly. Besides many of them are underpaid and bitter, depending on where you are. IMO, Hong Kong has some of the best educational systems in the world, while I found much potential for improvement in mainland China. Especially in teacher's training department.

The next quote, "abused people tend to have issues". OK, man.

Thinking is not a crime. He asks a hypothetical question in that housework post that for once questions rhetoric. People cheer. Big deal. A lot of women are lazy and leading cushy lives. Maybe the people in that thread knew some. And thus they empathized. Hell, I agree.

And in that last post, his point was that RP assumes agency in the woman. We assume she is consciously making choice and that she is capable of doing so. Meanwhile, ironically the rest of reddit(and everyone else) repeatedly and demonstrably remove agency. They treat her like a toddler being taken advantage of no matter what she decides. For your fucking strawman that only addresses a minuscule part of his post, consider the fact that the RP criticizes women privately, in our space. It is pretty much obvious that this principle is a sexual strategy given, that in the field, you become pro-sex and accepting. No RPer shames women he's sleeping with. We rely on sluts for our best stuff. And the market is saturated to even consider gaming some other demographic.

You are under the impression that when I go out, the women I'm with are not self-respecting, professionally successful people who'll stand for my shit, just as much as I wouldn't stand for hers. I'm in fucking Hong Kong. You're assuming that I live in with a RPW with whom I can say what I want whenever I want. That crossover would be like 4% of RPW dating someone who's active on TRP.

The truth of the matter is, its almost a RP law: http://48laws-of-power.blogspot.com.tr/2011/05/law-38-think-as-you-like-but-behave.html

I become whatever the market demands. I am not a roaming misogynist who shames women. No RP men would get away with blatantly trying to control people by criticizing them. We work to bypass confrontations, not get involved in them. I can get a woman to change her behaviours for me. I don't do it by begging or complaining about it. You make yourself worth that effort to her. You create attraction and then leverage it.

In any case, I am convinced your sub is full of people who don't even read or consider their own hand-picked quotes/links. You are so mired in your bias, you refuse to even consider something other than what you want to be there. The concept of context means nothing, so long as you can shame people as if this is middle-school to you.

EDIT: I realized the point women hating other women. I take it you've never witnessed female rivalry? Its pretty

[–]DoldenbergBlue Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you honestly believe he is wrong about every teacher? Do you honestly believe, even though its stated in your quote, he believes this about all of them?

No, where did you even get that idea. But what is this stupid attitude that generalizations are perfectly fine because they still allow exceptions; and they might not even talk the majority of a group, but hell, it's a generalization, haters gonna hate!

"Men are pigs, but there might be some exceptions." Is this somehow a good statement to make simply because it acknowledges that not all men are pigs? Is it a good statement because, well, it might not be accurate, but it's a generalization, deal with it!

Spoiler: No, it isn't.

The next quote, "abused people tend to have issues". OK, man.

More like "I would never date an abused woman because she might have an issue and I can't be bothered to judge people by what they actually are and do instead of one-dimensional generalizations."

And in that last post, his point was that RP assumes agency in the woman. We assume she is consciously making choice and that she is capable of doing so.

...and you're constantly talking about the true nature of women, driven by the inevitable desire to go for the next Alpha and how one has to except all that because she has to.

Today on "The grass is still green, the Earth still spins and TRP-users constantly contradict their own theories"...

Meanwhile, ironically the rest of reddit(and everyone else) repeatedly and demonstrably remove agency. They treat her like a toddler being taken advantage of no matter what she decides.

Where the hell do you even get that from? A woman can do whatever she wants. Every normal person ever recognizes that yes, sometimes people do bad things. They make mistakes. They do things they regret. That's a natural part of being a human.

But those people still acknowledge that there are countless factors that might influence one's decisions. Mental problems, intoxication, etc. And that some people might actively try to exploit such things, something that TRP repeatedly does. How often do we see "Women are dumb and shallow"? "Women - the most responsible teenager in the house" is right there in the sidebar! So if you assume every woman is somehow mentally unstable, and base all your pickup techniques around women being mentally unstable, and then you pick up a mentally unstable woman with that technique, you evidently exploited here.

That still doesn't mean that women fully in control of themselves can't make mistakes, but the real problem is that TRP assumes that whenever she does, that somehow makes her fair game.

That girl got drunk? Yeah, that sure justifies that she got raped, shouldn't have got drunk, that dumb hoe. Zoe Quinn cheats on her boyfriend? Yeah, that sure justifies all the rape threats and the harassment.

[–]barbadosslim0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]M_rafayCrimson Red0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]barbadosslim0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]M_rafayCrimson Red-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

That's a nice strawman. Did you make it yourself? We better pack it up then. There's no reason for this sub to exist. Since debate with RP is impossible. :/

You know why its really impossible? Because you can't get your head out of your ass for two seconds to listen to the other side. I'm not completely RP, I'm not completely following their ideology, I'm opposed to many beliefs and I criticize them but even I don't do such blatantly shitty stuff as come down from my TBP circlejerk to make statements for the opposition such as:

"Women are incapable of love." A distinct and famous TBP paraphrase for "Women are incapable of love as men love" Or "women love differently". This one is such a clichéd BP disconnect from reality that it makes me sad to see it again and again. Its pathetic how BP is so obsessed with the same desperate lies.

Either that or "They are only valuable for their chastity." The fuck? I don't think you even understand the concept of value.

The person you quoted said: being controlling, abusive, working out and wanting sex are not RP inventions or RP-spawned. I asked you to explain what the fuck is your point.

If it is the equivalent of saying "What do you against working out" than explain to me where you find this logic being applied in your quote. Hell, scour that whole thread and find me it. I'll wait.

The worst, most pathetic thing to see is a person displaying his own laziness and stupidity in abundanc, tch tch at others for having those faults.

[–]barbadosslim0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

That's a nice strawman.

It is not a strawman, as you yourself point out later in your post when you say, "Women are incapable of love as men love."

Did you make it yourself? We better pack it up then. There's no reason for this sub to exist. Since debate with RP is impossible. :/

Debate is impossible. That is why we need to move to silencing and ostracism of red pillers. You aren't able to reason, but you might respond to your bros making fun of you.

You know why its really impossible? Because you can't get your head out of your ass for two seconds to listen to the other side. I'm not completely RP, I'm not completely following their ideology, I'm opposed to many beliefs and I criticize them but even I don't do such blatantly shitty stuff as come down from my TBP circlejerk to make statements for the opposition such as:

"Women are incapable of love." A distinct and famous TBP paraphrase for "Women are incapable of love as men love" Or "women love differently". This one is such a clichéd BP disconnect from reality that it makes me sad to see it again and again. Its pathetic how BP is so obsessed with the same desperate lies.

Either that or "They are only valuable for their chastity." The fuck? I don't think you even understand the concept of value.

what

The person you quoted said: being controlling, abusive, working out and wanting sex are not RP inventions or RP-spawned. I asked you to explain what the fuck is your point.

You weren't able to understand my point. Which goes to demonstrate my point that debate with redpillers is impossible.

If it is the equivalent of saying "What do you against working out" than explain to me where you find this logic being applied in your quote. Hell, scour that whole thread and find me it. I'll wait.

The worst, most pathetic thing to see is a person displaying his own laziness and stupidity in abundanc, tch tch at others for having those faults.

what

[–]M_rafayCrimson Red-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

It is not a strawman, as you yourself point out later in your post when you say, "Women are incapable of love as men love."

One means: They are mentally handicapped and can't love. The other means: They love differently than men.

If you want to argue that women's love as it is defined in RP is not really love, than that could be a fascinating debate that is not as black and white. But you stick to your fucking madeup strawman.

Debate is impossible. That is why we need to move to silencing and ostracism of red pillers. You aren't able to reason, but you might respond to your bros making fun of you.

OK, not only is this a disgusting statement that makes shitty assumptions on multiple levels(I'd respond to shaming, I didn't just humiliate you, I'd respond to shaming) I think I'll allow it if it'll make you go back to your social justice warrior circlejerk. Debate is impossible for you because you're an idiot who makes up your opponent's positions and then replies, effectively debating himself while feeling superior. The only refutation your argument needs is a look around this fucking thread you're reading.

You weren't able to understand my point. Which goes to demonstrate my point that debate with redpillers is impossible.

Your point is excessively shitty. Not only does it not apply to your quote, its really dependent on a very shitty understanding of RP. Women aren't even valuable for their chastity. If anything, in your assinine ELI2 simplification, it'd be the warranty on her value. Chastity would mean she likely not to cheat?

what what

Its text, re-read it. Or in fact, don't bother. Just... go away, you child.

[–]barbadosslim0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

One means: They are mentally handicapped and can't love. The other means: They love differently than men.

If you want to argue that women's love as it is defined in RP is not really love, than that could be a fascinating debate that is not as black and white. But you stick to your fucking madeup strawman.

yep I made it all up

OK, not only is this a disgusting statement that makes shitty assumptions on multiple levels(I'd respond to shaming, I didn't just humiliate you, I'd respond to shaming) I think I'll allow it if it'll make you go back to your social justice warrior circlejerk. Debate is impossible for you because you're an idiot who makes up your opponent's positions and then replies, effectively debating himself while feeling superior.

oh ok

Your point is excessively shitty. Not only does it not apply to your quote, its really dependent on a very shitty understanding of RP. Women aren't even valuable for their chastity. If anything, in your assinine ELI2 simplification, it'd be the warranty on her value. Chastity would mean she likely not to cheat?

Doubling down on the sexist pseudologic, ok. I guess that goes to show how excessively shitty is my point that you are an irrational sexist.

Its text, re-read it. Or in fact, don't bother. Just... go away, you child.

Maybe I'll go read a /u/mayonesa post instead. It would be just as well-reasoned.

[–]M_rafayCrimson Red0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]barbadosslim0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]HaebangDr. Mario5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Dress & have mannerisms (passably) like a man
Approach attractive girls &
Try to get their phone number, or have them go on a date with you.

Maybe 15 or so years of this might do the trick. If you do this effortlessly, please come back & share your knowledge with us in the form of a field report. Otherwise, a dash of red pill here or there might fill in the gaps where your game is lacking.

On the other hand, how could men (genuinely, i.e. not the white-knight fakers who do so for feminists' good graces) understand the plight & perspective of what it's like to be a woman? Why/how should they quantify which is "worse" outside of a case by case basis?

Shouldn't everyone be more or less concerned with their own self-interest? At what point do you expect someone else to put their needs/wants on hold for yours? A lot of women think they have it worse than men, a lot of men think the exact opposite. But it's pretty clear we're all doing better than 99% of Africans suffering from Ebola. Why don't we donate all our money to them since they are clearly in a worse situation than anyone here? Self-interest. TRP is self-interest. Everyone has their own self-interest, the same way everyone who speaks has an accent. You just don't realize it because people use themselves/their group as the "proper" point of reference.

[–]PhokusProgressive-Lazy Christian-Leans RP3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

[–]thats_a_semaphor6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

[–]thats_a_semaphor1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PhokusProgressive-Lazy Christian-Leans RP3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

hat's the BP "angle"?

That hypergamy isn't real or is overstated.

I would argue that relationship cases are best looked at individually

Or we can turn to science:

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/05/further-results-on-hypergamy.html

We examine causes and consequences of relative income within households. We establish that gender identity – in particular, an aversion to the wife earning more than the husband – impacts marriage formation, the wife’s labor force participation, the wife’s income conditional on working, marriage satisfaction, likelihood of divorce, and the division of home production. The distribution of the share of household income earned by the wife exhibits a sharp cliff at 0.5, which suggests that a couple is less willing to match if her income exceeds his. Within marriage markets, when a randomly chosen woman becomes more likely to earn more than a randomly chosen man, marriage rates decline. Within couples, if the wife’s potential income (based on her demographics) is likely to exceed the husband’s, the wife is less likely to be in the labor force and earns less than her potential if she does work. Couples where the wife earns more than the husband are less satisfied with their marriage and are more likely to divorce. Finally, based on time use surveys, the gender gap in non-market work is larger if the wife earns more than the husband. - See more at: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/05/further-results-on-hypergamy.html#sthash.BwxWN15C.dpuf

[–]thats_a_semaphor6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]PhokusProgressive-Lazy Christian-Leans RP0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't use the word hypergamy, but the entire study is ABOUT hypergamy.

The distribution of the share of household income earned by the wife exhibits a sharp cliff at 0.5, which suggests that a couple is less willing to match if her income exceeds his. Within marriage markets, when a randomly chosen woman becomes more likely to earn more than a randomly chosen man, marriage rates decline. Within couples, if the wife’s potential income (based on her demographics) is likely to exceed the husband’s, the wife is less likely to be in the labor force and earns less than her potential if she does work. Couples where the wife earns more than the husband are less satisfied with their marriage and are more likely to divorce. Finally, based on time use surveys, the gender gap in non-market work is larger if the wife earns more than the husband.

[–]workerbeebuzz8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]DevilishRogueKnows more than you0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]workerbeebuzz2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]DevilishRogueKnows more than you-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

It seems strange that we live in a world where there are people still alive that experienced the kind of systematic discrimination that your mother did when applying for university. It seems so far removed from contemporary experience it is too easy to forget how difficult things were for her generation of women.

I heard about the mensa study when something more recent replicated the results. TRP would argue that this was an example of hypergamy.

Also, you being the only graduate from your class that gave birth also supports hypergamy arguments as the more successful a woman is the harder it is for her to find a partner she deems suitable. Very happy to hear that you have found someone and started a family together though. Let's hope it isn't too late for your colleagues either as it seems dreadfully unfair that they miss out on having a family just because they are successful.

[–]workerbeebuzz5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]arguesforarguing[S] 26 points27 points28 points 11 years ago (201 children) | Copy Link

I read the whole thing. I facepalmed many times.

First, no one owes you sex. You are not entitled to sex. Women do not have to give you sex because you want it.

There's no such thing as friendzoning because no one is entitled to sex.

He was self-absorbed, entitled, depressed, lacked confidence, creepy, and violent and then blames women for not having sex with him. Women don't owe you sex. No shit women don't like that. Who does? Women don't exist to be your walking sex toy. Your existence does not guarantee sex for you because you want it.

The existence of so many female prostitutes, strippers, and escorts is on account of how women's bodies are objectified and commidified. (Prostitution is sad. I wish there were better options for women than selling their bodies. Sending women to jail for prostitution will only continue a cycle of poverty, abuse, rape, and possibly drugs.)

Female sexuality is not celebrated. If a woman has sex to early than she's a whore. Too much sex? Slut. Won't have sex? Prude.

I m fully convinced this post in incredibly, incredibly ~~sexist~~ misandrist. He reduces men to being irrational, emotional, hypersexual beings who can't control their sexual urges. Bullshit. The fact he doesn't go around serial raping shows he is in at least somewhat in control of his sexual urges.

At the risk of being accused of solipsism, yeah, I've been there as a woman. I have felt suicidal, unloved, monstrous, deformed. I've written up suicide plans and cried about what people will do when I'm dead. I'm shy an introverted and kinda socially awkward. Yeah, women have bipolar disorder, depression, suicidal feelings and angst. I wonder if he was receiving therapy or on medication. It would have helped him. If he was then he should have sought a better therapist and new medication regimen.

There are socially stupid, shy, strange, introverted and odd girls who can't get sex just like there are guys who can't have sex. It's not unique to men.

Then he develops confidence suddenly. Yup, women like confidence. How comfortable would they be though when he describes them as sluts .... or says he wants to disfigure women's faces with a scalpel and shoot them?

There are a million different things he could have done instead of buying into TRP. Here are some examples:

Find a great psychiatrist
Find a working medication regimen to treat his depression
Buy a sex toy
Get a nice pet. Not some fish or something. Get a fucking goldie. Those things will love anyone.
Buy self-improvement books
Join a support group for people with anger issues or depression
Take a class on social skills
Improve his relationship with his mother
Art therapy
Get a hobby to give you fulfillment
Make friends. Maybe freemasons or sports or something?

A combination of those would have helped him. His postings in a way confirm how TRP appeals to men woth low self-esteem and emotional problems.

He wasn't a femenist, so much as a benevolent sexist. He "loved" women because he wanted sex from them.

[–]adrixshadowIndigo Pill(aka dark and evil occult pill)9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago* (43 children) | Copy Link

[–]la_sabotageTerp Terp Terp7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]adrixshadowIndigo Pill(aka dark and evil occult pill)-5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

OK, let me speak from experience. I am not from the west exactly but I hope that is not a reason to dismiss me.

Search "Hong Kong Women". Try a few pages onward in google's results. The shortage of quality men is a cultural epidemic that currently defines the experience and concerns of many a woman here. If you consume media, news you will scarcely go a day without getting the impression that women perceive the dating to be saturated with ball-less wonders. Many of the more informal ones are (understandably) in cantonese, and are blogs, but if you'll look, you'll find plenty in english as well.

Hong Kong is also famous for circulating videos of emasculated men being humiliated by girlfriends or wives. I'm sure you've seen one or two. Well... there are plenty more.

If you strictly want a more western example, I'll step aside for someone else and add this thread as a token offering: It illustrates a frankly, very dislikable attitude and rhetoric about men's concerns about marraige:

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2cuq29/woman_laments_her_bf_of_4_years_doesnt_seem_to/

[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Can't say I have, or that I know much about Honk Kong media at all. Would you mind posting a few or translating some examples (i realize translating is a lot of work so a quick summary is more than ok).

I'm at work so I don't want to turn on audio. You can use comments/titles for translations or a gist. But IMO, it doesn't really matter anyway. They don't strike me as the type of people to have meaning in their arguments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmxxQgxssXY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfIN8dE_xPQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB_fZZwz9Bc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx92Sbj5esM&noredirect=1

As for the RP post...christ, that kind of fear-mongering is exactly what I meant in this comment[1] .

I fully acknowledged that there was a reasonable way to resolve this keeping the man's concerns in mind. But I also mainly pointed out the attitude overwhelmingly present in the women. Next to no posters empathizing with the man in that thread was a woman. To your question that is whats relevant. Not divorce statistics. Even though I really really have a problem with people saying "well, its not that bad... cheer up about that fear mongering". It is still pretty bad. I'll refrain from talking on US issues though. You should post on /r/MensRights however. A lot of their movement seems to be hot air then.

[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]arguesforarguing[S] 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

He wasn't married. He just wanted women to have commitment free sex with him saying he needs it. It doesn't work like that.

You're talking about relationship dynamic and he thought all women must give him sex.

Even in marriage a woman doesn't owe sex and a man doesn't owe sex, but a healthy, functioning relationship will try to give each person what they want and make sacrifices.

If you give a woman time, money and marriage only because she gives you sex and not because you vowed to spend your life with her than it's like she's a prostitute for you. It's an unstable relationship built around using the woman as an object for satisfying sexual needs instead of seeing her as an equal in the relationship.

You may not owe your wife money, but you do have to hold by basic human decency to not cheat on her even if she won't have sex (talk to her!).

Real relationships are built on more than sex and money.

[–]adrixshadowIndigo Pill(aka dark and evil occult pill)1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (25 children) | Copy Link

If you give a woman time, money and marriage

First of time and money is separate from marriage, marriage is the ultimate commitment.

I expect my time and money to result in sex, like I said you are not entitled to it, I invest some and you invest some.

If a women doesn't satisfy my sexual needs then she doesn't care much about me now does she?

In a causal relationship I expect time and money for sex.

A marriage was supposed to be something more, but in today's society it has become something less, it has become exploitation.

you vowed to spend your life with her

This is insidious on so many levels, no the man didn't not vow, you both vowed, it is a two way thing, you both have obligations.

A women should satisfy my needs in a marriage because she suppose to love me and care for me, the fact that she doesn't means she is a rotten filthy liar and a whore, I will take a prostitute every time instead of that rotten vile monster.

You may not owe your wife money

Once you are married you owe her money BY LAW.

but you do have to hold by basic human decency to not cheat on her even if she won't have sex (talk to her!).

No it's not human decency my wife to be a filthy rotten ville fucking whore.

Real relationships are built on more than sex and money.

Current marriage is built on less, its built on lies and manipulation, by your statement it doesn't even have sex in it anymore so how can it have more?

A man or women in love you think won't have sex? so how can having no sex be more? It isn't.

And we are all going to suffer for it.

In this society love has completely evaporated. The women has completely collapse in its own self centeredness so she cannot care about her husband thus cannot love, it take 2 to love.

[–]arguesforarguing[S] 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]adrixshadowIndigo Pill(aka dark and evil occult pill)-3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]adrixshadowIndigo Pill(aka dark and evil occult pill)-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That is a very sad world view you've got there.

We live in as sad world that will die very very fast.

That's incredibly distorted.

As expected from a world where up is down, and down is up, I would be worried if its not distorted.

Have you ever talked to a therapist?

No i have not be lobotomized yet.

Are you doubting I have a grasp of the definition (in which case, whu?) or the emotional connection?

Yes. You are too full of yourself to have that ability.

Neurologists would have noticed this trend of all American women being unable to do it.

Just scan her brain when she watches her husband, I'll tell you the empathic pathways will be silent.

I actually have seen a therapist and my empathy works absolutely great, thank you.

Prove it, what was the last thing you did to your boyfriend or husband, and how long ago.

I think finding out what's happening with YOUR brain would be an excellent idea.

You would be scared.

As a healthy human being, I want you to understand, you sound a little bit off.

That's fine, I don't want to be a healthy human being, I have seen them, they disgust me. There is nothing "normal" about the world we live in.

I'm going to go now.

You cannot escape this ugly reality. Remember this.

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I do not want to con a man into marrying me. My skin is crawling right now.

(I also do not want his money. My job pays me money for being awesome at it and loving what I do. It is very nice.)

If I meet someone compatible that thinks I would be a wonderful person to make awesome things happen with, yay! It's going to take a while because I'm weird. Have accepted this. Don't care. Learned to deal with my inhereant human loneliness via some of the things in the list presented earlier.

I am proud of myself. I am not a douchebag trying to fuck over someone who doesn't want to get married (OR HAVE SEX), especially before their frontal cortex is finished developing (under 24 = shittier decisions than after 25! weeee!).

Also, you think sluts exist. I think that makes you suck as a person. So now everyone who thinks like me doesn't like you. Great success!

[–]workerbeebuzz0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]adrixshadowIndigo Pill(aka dark and evil occult pill)1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]arguesforarguing[S] 15 points16 points17 points 11 years ago (43 children) | Copy Link

This is a sub for debating. You presented his thoughts and I respond with mine in debate.

I didn't say he's a rapist anywhere. I said he's not a rapist.

I don't hate him. I don't feel contempt for him or loathe him. Most of all I think he needed help for his depression and not an ideology to tell him it's all women's fault.

I'm up voting you. I hope you don't edit your comment or punk out and delete it - it's an excellent reminder of how sexually unsuccessful men are really viewed.

It's not that he was sexually unsuccessful. It's that he demand sex and affection from women, portrays himself as very awkward, and details his violent urges against women.

I'm not virgin-hating. Men who are virgins are fine by me. It's his entitlement to sex and two-way sexism that are off-putting.

I don't have any reason to delete my comment.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (42 children) | Copy Link

It's not that he was sexually unsuccessful. It's that he demand sex and affection from women, portrays himself as very awkward, and details his violent urges against women.

Right. He was a failure. He failed because he listened to what he was told and as a result, grew to resent the people who lied to him. That's the catch 22 he finds himself in - he does everything he was told to, fails because the advice was all shit, and then gets treated like a leper for daring to express his anger and frustration.

not an ideology to tell him it's all women's fault.

What he needed was to learn how to get his dick wet. Which he did. What you could offer, if you were so inclined and if you knew how, is an alternate means of that. The problem is that women aren't interested in helping creepy incel dudes get laid, nor do they have any practical experience as men bedding women.

[–]arguesforarguing[S] 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

I don't view people as failures because they are poor at getting one-night flings. How much sex you have doesn't define who you are.

I don't think they were lying to him. Maybe they just were trying to comfort him knowing he was so severely depressed. He might also be straw-manning.

What he needed was to learn how to get his dick wet. Which he did. What you could offer, if you were so inclined and if you knew how, is an alternate means of that. The problem is that women aren't interested in helping creepy incel dudes get laid, nor do they have any practical experience as men bedding women.

Yeah, women don't owe him any sex. Nobody does. It's not women's obligation to use their bodies to sexually satisfy men. Nobody owes him shit and it's not up to women to have sex with anything with a penis because a man wants it.

If anything, it shows how TRP prays on the emotionally vulnerable.

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When you say "understand" what do you mean? Can you understand the perspective THEY are coming from and reiterate their views from their first premises?

I loathe communism with every cell in my body, I disagree with it and wouldn't be unhappy if it was stamped out. I don't "understand" how any "rational person" could accept the communist worldview. That being said, I still UNDERSTAND what communism itself BELIEVES, from its own first premises, even though I both ratonally disagree with those first premises and am viscerally repulsed by them. You still appear to be using understand to mean "agree with". When you say "understand" do you mean "understand how someone could agree with it"? or do you LITERALLY mean "understand" their beliefs, as in no matter how many times you have been given a definition of hypergamy you can't comprehend the concept.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]M_rafayCrimson Red2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Disclaimer: let me state plainly I don't agree with the manipulative or abusive label, but I'll accept it for now for the sake of argument.

TRP's hateful beliefs or the fact they justify manipulating and abusing women for sex and then jump right back to call women manipulative and abusive.

Simple: RP rejects the standard BP mode of operating. By default, women hold more power, and being people just like any others, they tend to do what they are incentivized to do.

RP flips that power script. And RPers, being people as well, do what they are incentivized to do. They use their methods to get what they want.

The game is always being played. No one gets to just opt out. Might as well learn to play better. All men objectively game women and work to qualify. RP adds efficiency and improvements to your process.

In our view, BP people are routinely abused or manipulated all the time. And its considered okay, no matter how common it is, simply because these violations are normal or non-existent. A lot of these men just crash out, are miserable(from sexual strategy perspective, comparatively) and never realize it.

tl;dr: we reason present sexual market conditions(women's nature, actions, feminism's worse effects, etc) justify RP.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't buy the "women hold more power in sex argument".

Going by TRP ideals, they have no power as men are supposed to approach them and they should not seek out sex or use "game" on a man. TRP posts also call the kind of women they pursue "sluts". This means women must be naturally approached by a man and have little freedom to choose a mate unless approached by him.

Both genders are the gatekeepers of sex because they must both want sex and consent. A woman cannot have sex if the man does not want it and a woman can't have sex if a man doesn't want it, so both genders technically open themselves up for sex and not specifically women.

You can opt out by not having sex. Asexuals are out for life and so are lesbians and gay men because normative standards don't apply to them.

"Gaming" women isn't universal because other men can view women as human beings and not sex objects for purchase.

Feminism has been good for women unless you don't want women to have the same rights and opportunities as men. Although perhaps the standards of modern feminism is more iffy.

So TRP believes the "market" is negative and then seeks to reinforce it though "game".

[–]M_rafayCrimson Red1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Going by TRP ideals, they have no power as men are supposed to approach them and they should not seek out sex or use "game" on a man.

I'm glad you used the word ideals, as that at least vaguely refers to subjective RP models of a balanced marketplace and not some moral assertion from RP of what anyone should do because... RP does not preach what people should do. It views sexual strategy as inherently amoral. That said, women's "game" works on automatic. Most women are approached frequently enough so that's simple. RP views women as naturally shrewd negotiators, and describes in detail, standard and non-standard hurdles that exist as part of their instinctive selection process. RP details how to negotiate. Consider this; for all the reasonable requests for sex by men, why is it that only a few are going through.

This selection and negotiation process operates on the whims of her emotions though. What makes her feels good, is what she loves. The power stems from having the men need her love. All power is based on influencing behaviour by having control of incentives. Men need to get chosen. The chooser has power, however unconcious.

This means women must be naturally approached by a man and have little freedom to choose a mate unless approached by him.

This is like saying I have little freedom to choose with a dozen companies trying to sell me something. Because if she is attractive, she will get approached. More attractive = more power.

Both genders are the gatekeepers of sex because they must both want sex and consent. A woman cannot have sex if the man does not want it and a woman can't have sex if a man doesn't want it, so both genders technically open themselves up for sex and not specifically women.

Women being "the gate keepers of sex" is not literal. Nor is it a universal rule for all relationships. Its simply a RP observation of the social dynamics of exchange in the large majority relationships, and which is largely true for most areas of the world. So if its not literal, what does it mean? It describes that sex itself may be considered a commodity for which a woman may negotiate and obtain value in exchange for, while a male will largely not. Said negotiation may be completely unnoticed by both parties.

The principle being, due to the state of the market(less supply, due to restriction or naturally), and the nature of demand(hunger, more like) a woman by default has the option to obtain real value in exchange for participating in this mutual activity. The reasons she may not do this abound(her beliefs, she desires a male more than he does her, she likes sex too, she doesn't have self-esteem or knows how) but that doesn't change the fact that she has this option, while the ordinary male does not.

Men will approach women. Men will provide value to impress her. She needs provide little to nothing, but may do so any way to compete or score higher quality. A date where a woman displays absolutely no qualities besides being attractive is still likely to succeed because the man views sex itself as value. The opposite is not true at any significant rate.

An interesting corollary is, a beautiful woman could quite literally make a living solely out of being attractive. And many do. In a wide variety of ways(not including the obvious ones like prostitution, use your imagination). Any of the top 30-40% of women have the potential to do so in the present market. For men, its about the top 1-3% (max).

This "gatekeeper" must be able to get things in exchange for being desired by the opposite sex even if she enjoys it just as much. Think of it like this: You and your husband both enjoy the movies greatly. Your husband even gets more excited during the film itself than you do. He wants to go less often than you though. He is the limiting factor. The movies itself is not a big enough incentive for him. You add something onto the scales(maybe a blowjob) to add incentive until he wants to go. Lets say its hardwired in his instincts to want some value before he goes... unless its a really fucking good movie. Only then will he go freely. Congratulations, he is the gatekeeper of the movies. You can go alone, but its just not the same... :(

See, hypergamy is universal actually. It just so happens that the dictionary definition encompasses economically. But in RP the concept of hypergamy applies to both sexes. They both seek value in each other, but also value slightly different things. The value women seek in a man can vary a lot; social status, attractiveness, $$$, maleness, charisma, success, etc meanwhile sex itself is the value by which women are able to do it). Traditional femininity(gentle, soft-spoken, nurturing, submissive, devoted, etc good wifely qualities basically) is just the warranty for her value, and also helps in making her a good mother. While positive beta traits(loyal, loving, thoughtful, romantic, good dad) is his warranty + fatherly qualities.

You can opt out by not having sex. Asexuals are out for life and so are lesbians and gay men because normative standards don't apply to them.

You can also opt out of civilizations and live on your own. You can opt of school. You can opt out of the professional meatgrinder nad be unemployed or a trust fund baby. The institution doesn't hold power over you. But while you're in the market, you are subject to its control, simply because you're competing for what you want.

"Gaming" women isn't universal because other men can view women as human beings and not sex objects for purchase.

Well, sure. But sometimes sex is on the agenda. And when it is. The complicated human mating dance applies more often than not. For the sake of getting the woman to agree, more often than not.

EDIT: A thought occured to me. Allow me to make this absurdly long post longer, I want to address your point here:

This means women must be naturally approached by a man and have little freedom to choose a mate unless approached by him.

You used the terms "must" and "little freedom to". You have to question why you don't have freedom. There is nothing stopping you. Most men would jump at the chance to be approached. Women can approach. They just don't want to. Being approached in a negotiation gives you more power. You haven't already accepted the burden of qualifying to the other, without them having done qualifying to you. The human mating process is long because the value a male has is not immediately apparent, while the value a woman has is. The ones who already display abundant value(i.e. males at the top of the social ladder, or 10/10 looks) are approached. The ones who don't aren't.

The other factor being risk of rejection. In which case, its not that you can't, its that you have the luxury to not need to, because this is what men face all the time. The third, less significant factor is, a woman who approaches is slightly more forward, and thus less chaste and feminine. Buss and Schmitt(1993, 1994, 2000, 2004, 2007) proved that paranoia over paternity is a strongly evolved trait by showing it is virtually universal across cultures. Any trait in women that could make him more sure of his paternity will see broad male populations show an attraction bias for it. Less forward is one of those, for a minute subset of men(In this poll, 42% of particapants were males. 39% said they would love it or wouldn't care, but 2% said they'd be put off. The women's answers are interesting too. SOrry, i cant better poll. please search if you have time)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Men hold they key to sex as much as women do. You are opening up yourself to sex and making yourself sexually available. You pick and choose who you want based on emotion (your attraction to her). If you don't approach her for sex or then you are closing the gates so to speak unless you will indiscriminately have sex with any woman.

You are seeking out women based on what makes you feel good and gratifies you.

Where is your evidence for your assertions women are approached for sex all the time?

It describes that sex itself may be considered a commodity for which a woman may negotiate and obtain value in exchange for, while a male will largely not. Said negotiation may be completely unnoticed by both parties.

Sex is not a commodity because women are not goods to purchase.

Sex can be because a woman wants it or because she loves a man or she knows he loves her. It is not automatically contingent on money or gifts. Affection, love, time, respect, and interest are not equivalent to money. An "economic market" must function with money. Even if you give a woman roses and chocolates it could be that you have expressed your love to her so she trusts you and not because you bought sex from her.

You are also looking for "value" in a woman's appearance. You want a woman who makes your penis feel good.

Men can also makes careers out of being attractive: models, make strippers, underwear models, male hookers, some actors who suck at acting, some singers. Of course, this is such an extremely small portion of humanity it's irrelevant.

From RPW:

So is RPW the same as fPUA?

No. We don’t strive to pick up random men for the sake of obtaining sex. We don’t utilize “game” adapted for females to spin plates. That sounds exhausting and gross. Don’t do it.

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago* (42 children) | Copy Link

Find a great psychiatrist Find a working medication regimen to treat his depression Buy a sex toy Get a nice pet. Not some fish or something. Get a fucking goldie. Those things will love anyone. Buy self-improvement books Join a support group for people with anger issues or depression Take a class on social skills Improve his relationship with his mother Art therapy Get a hobby to give you fulfillment Make friends. Maybe freemasons or sports or something?

OK, OP, lets assume his need is specifically sexual(as a twelve year incel with a normal life elsewhere). How many women would he bang using your method?

I also, think in a way, you are failing to get the way a lot of men view sex when you reduce it to this:

He reduces men to being irrational, emotional, hypersexual beings who can't control their sexual urges.

I want to copy-paste a comment by Archwinger to illustrate how a lot of men view sex. The reply isn't precisely on the same topic so you might have to slightly stretch your imagination. Comment is quoted from here.

We hear no end of women asking, "Why is sex so important to The Red Pill? Why are you assholes so fixated on sex with women? Can't you just treat them like human beings?"

For a man (an honest man who's honest about his wants, anyway), insisting on a sexual relationship is treating a woman like a human being. Sex is how a woman shows a man that she cares. If she's withholding sex, she hasn't committed yet. "I'm not sure if you're 'worth the risk' yet, or if it's worth adding you to my 'number.' I'm not committed to you in that way yet."

For a man, the relationship isn't real if there's no sex. Sex is the difference between a platonic relationship and a romantic relationship. Everything you do with a woman that's non-sexual, you can do with your guy friends, or with a girl you're just friends with. Without sex, it's just a friendship. But women disagree with this point -- they'll tell you that if there's 'love' and an understanding that you're in a 'relationship', that's what makes it non-platonic, whether there's sex or not. For women, emotion and intent are what make a relationship romantic versus platonic. So the mere possibility of maybe, just maybe, having sex in the future, if the guy 'earns it', is enough for a woman to consider a relationship serious.

And if a guy is supplicating and chasing and clinging, and hanging on, solely for the possibility of maybe eventually having sex in the future, if he 'earns' it, he dies a little inside every moment wondering why he's not good enough, and is crushed when the object of his desire ends up fucking somebody else with little-to-no emotional investment. And women don't see what the deal is with that. It was just sex. A mistake. Maybe she was drunk. But she doesn't love the other guy. She loves and chooses you. That's what's important, right?

Not to a man. Sex is how you show a man that you care. Withholding sex is how you show a man that you don't.

[–]arguesforarguing[S] 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

How can we assume his needs were specifically sexual?

They certainly calmed him down. ;) Its like the old adage: "Money may not buy happiness, but it certainly helps".

TRP rehashes what everyone know, markets it as a hidden truth, and then attaches to it unnecessary baggage. There is advice for attracting women with far less baggage attached then TRP.

OP, you do realize that I can reduce fusion to "make atoms go boom together", right? The lure of RP is in how exactly.

Did you know Red Pill is a hub, and if you start following links, you could bookmark and download literally hundreds of innovative resources that can make your life better(in very specific ways)? I chuckle everytime someone says RP can be summed as lift and be confident.

I guarantee most of RP you've never even heard of(simply because its not as interesting as dread game or plate spinning).

And the fact is, RP gets really specific(how to win certain patterns of relationship fights, how to have sex better, etc) to local(how to How to get laid in Tokyo. How to score incoming tourists before they even land in Seoul). to weird (how to make hookers do you for free, etc)

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[–]la_sabotageTerp Terp Terp6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

OK, OP, lets assume his need is specifically sexual(as a twelve year incel with a normal life elsewhere). How many women would he bang using your method?

Is there a particular reason why you are dismissing and ignoring her argument, or have you become so used to behave condescendingly towards people you disagree with that you don't even notice any more?

This guy obviously has major self esteem issues (which he even admits to, in the exact same blog post) and having sex very evidently did not cure him of his unhealthy hate and bitterness towards women.

He is really no different than girls with body image issues who engage in unhealthy crash diets - sure there is a feeling of exhilaration when she discovers she's lost 10 pounds or whatever, but that doesn't mean her practice of starving herself regularly is in any way healthy or wholesome, and in the long term she isn't actually solving the underlying problems.

Likewise, this guy very clearly hasn't solved his underlying self worth issues, nor has it made him in any way less paranoid or hateful towards women. (I probably could argue that it was the immersion in RP ideas and the manosphere that turned him even more hateful, but I'm not going to go for that particular low hanging fruit here.)

So we can conclude that even if we accept your premise and TRP does provide a solution to men with self worth issues who have become obsessed with sex, it is not doing much more than patch over the most obvious symptom (getting quick casual sex) without actually solving the major underlying issue that caused said symptom in the first place (self worth issues) and in fact encourages and supports one other major symptom of said issue (an attitude of irrational hatred/paranoia towards women).

I'm looking forward to you not engaging in the slightest with this argument, as well as reminding me to read the TRP sidebar and accusing me of not properly understanding TRP theory.

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I find it funny you assume I dismissed or ignored anything. I agreed with her position on "no one owes you sex" 110% so I didn't address it.

On her point about his views on men wanting sex so much being misandrist, I posted a quote of archwinger because I think he puts it better than I could. I think it also applies to the example of her own depression.

I also dare not utter within hearing distance of a BPer "you could have sex if it wasn't strictly excellent sex with a fulfilling relationship/fling-partner".

So that leaves the part you quoted.

This guy obviously has major self esteem issues (which he even admits to, in the exact same blog post) and having sex very evidently did not cure him of his unhealthy hate and bitterness towards women[1] .

But it did cure him of his self-esteem issues evidently(original link). That's progress. A step at a time? Also, I don't automatically see the hate and bitterness in these sorts of links. Can you point it out to me? Its just some guy realizing the theory of "gatekeepers" in a mildly amusing way. The most he does is he generalizes women.

He is really no different than girls with body image issues who engage in unhealthy crash diets - sure there is a feeling of exhilaration when she discovers she's lost 10 pounds or whatever, but that doesn't mean her practice of starving herself regularly is in any way healthy or wholesome, and in the long term she isn't actually solving the underlying problems.

In a crash diet, one deprives themselves. What is he depriving himself of that he had previously?

I get your point about underlying problems though, but I don't agree its self-worth issues. Can I be allowed to quote the original article?

Confidence doesn’t come from inside as i had been lied to over the years. It grows over time through external validations of success. If you repeat the success you become more confident. Fail enough times and the confidence suffers. Just be confident they said, fucking idiots.

I mostly agree with this. Confidence stems from your triumphs. From your talents. It stems from the belief that you are capable and that you need not be afraid that you'll perform less than optimally at the task you're doing. Beliefs can be formed via experiences. A man be a master of playing with rubber bands balls and get his confidence from that. Whats wrong with this?

Let me quote some more:

5 years ago i’d have be in my room crying over it or worse, apologizing to her for hurting her feelings. Today, i stand tall and say FUCK IT, my own needs and interests come first before anyone else and im ready to move on to find one who desires and deserves all the awesomeness i have to give. I don’t care how angry she got or how any feminist might say i just played nice to get in her pants. I’M THROUGH PLAYING NICE. I’m built, confident, nothing left to prove, cannot be persuaded by the power of pussy, and doing what i like for myself. I don’t fall on my sword for the needs of others. Look to thine own ass first is the creedo.

And you don’t have to worry about me. I keep at it p90x style, keep my body tight, i keep socializing, i keep looking for that diamond in the rough, i won’t reward entitled bitches with mind blowing orgasms but leave them to their pump and dump fates. I look 10,000 times better than i did before

i do not yield an inch to the power of pussy

His self-worth has just... gone through the roof actually.

nor has it made him in any way less paranoid or hateful towards women.

I actually agree with you on this, but 2 points first:

1) Just saying, from the link you gave he's apparently holding out for his perfect woman. Unwillingness to settle for anyone who doesn't add value to your life is not wrong. If I said this politely, or pretended to be a girl you'd agree with me(I'm not just going to marry any man, becky. He needs to be X, Y and Z, and make me feel like G"). Whereas before he used to tell his friends "I love you".

2) Also, why would RP make him less paranoid and hateful? "women are wonderful, i can't get laid to save my life" > "assume X, Y, Z about women. apply A, B, C. Get laid very frequently".

That said, I do agree he is paranoid and needlessly hateful to women, even without any indication of them individually showing him he needs to. For example, he says the stripper(s?) made him feel human after a long time, yet he disdains them just later in the same essay. However, I also think I can't sit here and assert superiority to him. I don't have his experience. If a man is put in a shitty/lonely jail for 12 years, when he comes out he may not be a happy camper.

But I do identify with him when you say sentences like "Obsession with sex". Its not an obsession anymore then people have an obsession for emotional intimacy.I posted archwinger's comment for a reason. Not because it is side-bared, but because he puts it in a way better than i could.

Sexual needs can also be needs. The crushing loneliness even got to OP. I was kidding earlier when i said 'drop your standards and get sex", because that is not what she should do. Nor linked blogger. Nor anyone. They shouldn't forget about sex either and consume themselves in other things, effectively denying that part of themselves. Yes, I think asking for the assumption that his need is specifically sexual is justified. And in that endeavour, RP is a valid solution.

[–]la_sabotageTerp Terp Terp1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I mostly agree with this. Confidence stems from your triumphs. From your talents. It stems from the belief that you are capable and that you need not be afraid that you'll perform less than optimally at the task you're doing.

It stems from a belief, yes. You can't just will yourself into belief, I agree with that, but you also can't do something and expect a particular belief to just spontaneously come to you through that.

That's one of the problems with depression, for example: You can pump yourself up fairly easily, some days you might even feel king of the world. Then something bad happens and it all comes crashing down and you're back at the mental stage where you're convinced the world hates you for existing.

And now that I'm writing this, I can actually see interesting parallels to how redpiller's attitude towards women and relationships tend to swing wildly between feeling like the master of their fate, and their pathological loathing for anything feminine and "feminist".

Beliefs can be formed via experiences. A man be a master of playing with rubber bands balls and get his confidence from that. Whats wrong with this?

There is a difference between playing with rubber bands and hatefucking "entitled bitches" (his words) given that one deals with objects and one deals with actual people.

EDIT: Actually your example wasn't quite as mismatched as I originally thought.

Because the author treats pretty much every woman there as an inanimate object, not people. Specifically, inanimate objects that exist only to fuel his confidence.

"Just be confident they said, fucking idiots. Nailing this stripper and nailing her like a boss did the trick!"

"Over the course of the next year i would bang 3 more strippers, getting into a casual with two of them for a time. I even fucked one inside the club.."

His self-worth has just... gone through the roof actually.

Are you judging that from the way he talks about women as "entitled bitches", or from how he insists that he is "through playing nice"? Because both sound to me like the kind of empty self-pumping rhetoric you tend to adopt when you're feeling angry and frustrated.

EDIT:

Also, please note that your timeline is completely off:

By his own claim, he did not discover TRP until long after the episode with the strippers, in fact long after he had been married and divorced (from a woman who, he alleges, "became unhappy with his reversion to betatude" despite his earlier claims that he became super confident and completely turned his life around).

In fact, based on his sexual activity alone (which you claim was the measure of his self worth) he is pretty much back where he started:

"I’ve adopted an MGTOW lifestyle, do things with myself in mind first and foremost following my own imperative, will only entertain relationships with women who qualify themselves to me by bringing more to the table than pretty looks and a vagina, else they just get a pump n dump."

But I do identify with him when you say sentences like "Obsession with sex". Its not an obsession anymore then people have an obsession for emotional intimacy.

It's an obsession when it becomes the sole focus of a person's self worth. It's especially problematic because sex and emotional intimacy are fundamentally outside of your immediate personal control. You cannot decide to have sex, or feel emotional intimacy, you need the consent of a willing partner for that.

Come to think of it, I just realized one possible reason why all these men feel so loathingly entitled to sex: If your entire self worth is based on how much sex you're getting, then you have to cope with the fact that whether you're getting sex is fundamentally outside your control, explaining why they are so focused on being "denied" sex by women and why they focus so obsessively on the supposed control women exert over them by not spreading their legs for them whenever they want.

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Wish I had gotten here earlier but I do want to address a few things you said which I disagree with.

First, no one owes you sex. You are not entitled to sex. Women do not have to give you sex because you want it. There's no such thing as friendzoning because no one is entitled to sex.

You are conflating real need with the belief that someone has a right to something. As a human being I have an emotional need for sex. With only a few exceptions we all do. We both want and need sex. That isn't the same thing as entitlement.

I just don't see how a desire for sex, which is something we can all relate to, is in your mind automatically equivalent to an entitlement to sex. I need friendship. That doesn't mean I feel entitled to it. It's a little unnerving that you can't even empathize with this basic aspect of being human.

The existence of so many female prostitutes, strippers, and escorts is on account of how women's bodies are objectified and commidified.

Maybe in a sexual sense, but in any capitalist system if we hold class constant than everyone is being equally objectified. Workers in general are treated like objects. Companies want them and use them only for the work their bodies can do. That is commodification of the human body. And this is a totally unrelated to men and women wanting to sleep with each other.

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If your response to basic RP stuff(or male experience for that matter) is "no one is entitled to sex" then not only are you completely way off the mark but you clearly have no intention of even trying to understand their position. You just threw some ridiculous fallacy on the issue, completely misrepresenting it, and became overly/irrationally defensive over it(instead of actually trying to understand the issues/views at hand).

Honestly there is so much wrong with your entire perspective, and position about men, prostitution, dating, sex and society here, that I don't even believe it's worth addressing seriously. It's like you're living in some feminist little bubble, where reality doesn't even apply. If you are serious about trying to understand the male perspective, you are definitely going about this the wrong way. You are way too far out of touch, condescending and apathetic to everything that is going on around you.

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That's an interesting story, and it gets me thinking.

First off, it is very sad that this person was depressed, suicidally so. Not all people become depressed by the same things or in the same way, and often not because of a single identifiable factor. So while I can certainly empathise with this person and their depression, it is not necessarily indicative of men in general (unless, of course, you want to make the sweeping generalisation that all RP men are suffering from a certain type of depression; that doesn't sound right to me).

Second, he feels that he was lied to by all the women in his life. If that's true, it's also pretty sad to see, but there are a couple of things that stand out to me. The first is that meme that sometimes goes around, saying something along the lines of, "If [x] always happens to you, maybe you're the cause" (or something like that). In this case, it sounds possible that instead of being lied to, he simply didn't embody the things they were telling him about.

Third, and I think this relates back to his depression, there is a weird line between what he is in control of and what he isn't. Sex is of central importance that he puts down to biological programming, but character isn't. For a lot of people, that's backwards to the way that they perceive control - they want to be themselves, and they will overcome biological predestination in order to do so. This person is changing their persona in order to achieve their "biological programming". A lot of people would see this as removing "the self" in order to appease "the body".

In the same way, this person believes that validation comes from without, not within, and rolls with that. What's this mean? It means that he is changing what a lot of people might consider to be "the soul" (or, for atheists, the seat of personality), downgrading it to be less important than the body. It doesn't matter who I am, as long as I get what I need.

This, for me, suggests that RPers would give primacy to the idea that we are animals - animals first, people second. It wouldn't surprise me - and it doesn't - that RPers put animal drives first, and assume that everyone else does (consciously or unconsciously).

To try and make a statement without judgement, if this story is indicative of at least some of the ideas in TRP, then a distinction between TRP and non-RP is that for non-RPers being the person that you are is of central importance (that doesn't mean you have to accept it, however) and for RPers getting what your animal instincts want, to the extent of denying your personality, is more important.

I think if someone is going to try and understand TRP, that might be an important concept and demonstrative of how different the worldviews really are.

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[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

There needs to be help when people are feeling this desperate - not a community that teaches them to objectify people and only think with their genitals.

If the people in question, are incels(lets stay on topic to the article posted by OP), they need people who can get them laid. RP is pretty damn decent at that. A lot of people, including the demographic illustrated by the linked essay, find RP to be a lot more effective than what they've been taught, and its not due to lack of trying. They have tried their absolute hardest to play as you advise. And they feel like they've been cheated in comparison to RP. Because their advice, which well may be correct, is wrong because it is so nebulous it seems to never work.

I think the greatest thing the BP side could do to kill RP is make a frame work that's as specific, detailed, and practically workable as RP. Even if you think your two-word advices: "be yourself, be fit, be confident, be rich, etc are great and comprehensive, you have to explain how.

When I was a teacher part-time during college, they told me, when going through a subject, don't assume your students "get" anything. Build from the ground up, and form connections between every concept. I think 1) women have absolutely no experience on how to game women. They also cannot predict with great accuracy what will work. They can spot correlations though. In the way someone can tell me how something tastes, but not tell me recipe. 2) BP men who do have experience, don't know how to explain what they do. They can't explain how to have a certain attractive personality perk any more than they know what that exact perk is.

You get a good crowd of the BP successful men crowd, and have them consider every answer, including the one that is politically incorrect, you'll end up with something really good. RP encompasses how to be everything from latin lover, to college playboy, to DT alpha. I think if BP put their mind to it, they could really break us.

Until then, we are one of the premier people who help when people are this desperate.

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[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Have you ever been mad at your sister and said you'd like to shoot her or slash her face with a scalpel.

Very true. He is quite unbalanced, I don't like it... but I do at some level can understand it. I can empathize.

When you're in a bad place you can't talk to people about, or see no hope of getting out of, your mind snaps to a lot of ugly emotions. This guy tried very hard to make us understand those emotions. I've never been involuntarily celibate for 12 years, but I did find my family(no dad) going bankrupt at age 14 onwards, at which point I had to give up a lot of things in order to bring in income. I felt very trapped and resentful. I wanted a lot of things. I viewed the world as very unfair. I wanted to kick my father's face in. I brawled. I was also sort of unattractive and had no time or luck with girls.

I can't quite imagine getting someone to empathize with the feelings I had from age 14 to age 22 without using that kind of anger in my language. I was a very angry person.

In any case, you asked for how you can better understand RP, even if you ignore everything else, take this to heart. It will help you understand the mindset of all of the posters there:

Do not attack things on the basis of how it is said. Don't attack the tone. Attack the message. Address the points made.

EDIT: Nevermind, I see you did. Good on you. You're already half-way to red.

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Yeah, the guy that shared several core views of TRP about women

I believe women have a vagina, opinions and feelings and are people. Thus, I am obviously BP and/or feminist? I believe aliens are pretty probable. Thus I am a scientologist?

The man was ideologically opposed to our ideas, to the point of willingness to murder. His hatred of women, was partly because they seemed to agree with our ideas.

In the RP view, Elliot Rodger's entitlement made him the bluest of blue men. RP believes the world owes you nothing. You deserve no sympathy by default. That all your failures, even ones due to women, are your fault. In RP, even having value(money, looks, personality, charisma) means shit if you can't play your value.

We considered him the spitting example of a dangerous BP stretched to breaking point under his entitlement 3 days before his murders. He struck us as disgusting. After the shooting, we again explain why this man is a fucking poster child of BP beliefs victimizing people:

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/26f2y4/omega_man_kills_6_and_commits_suicide/

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You realize that what constitutes as harassment differs from women to women, and is heavily influenced by other factors(such as looks, height, confidence, mannerism, etc), some of which men might not even have any real control over? Either way, the point here isn't that men need to harass women to be successful(though, men who harass women tend to be more successful) but that the things men are taught not to do to avoid being labelled threatening, an harasser or a predator, leads to passivity and failure with women.

The advices men are given by feminists would be perfectly fine, if women were actually willing to approach and pursue men the way men are expected to pursue women. This is not the world we live in. All you end up with is guys who want to do the right thing being left in the dust, with women having plenty of sex and romance with the guys that do the complete opposite of what those good guys, trying to play by the rules, were told. Whether it's intentional or not, those men are still being told that they're not even good enough to try, and doing the "right thing" just leads to them being permanently side-lined so that women can focus on other men(which is a pretty dark and twisted message to send to anyone).

The guys who make a point to respect women and treat them as equals end up paying for it the most, because we still live in a world that is filled with double-standards and unfair expectations. Because women still expect men to be the assertive, strong and confident masculine pursuers. A man that treats a woman as an equal will find himself trying to build 50% of a bridge that women aren't really willing to meet half-way. A man that treats women as an equal and with respect, will also find his efforts undermined time and time again by watching women rewards and encourage men who treat them as less than equals and without respect.

A guy who treats women as equals would also find himself at a direct disadvantage, or position of vulnerability, when he becomes attracted to a woman(vulnerability that leads to compliance or insecurity). This typically results in that man being labelled a doormat, too available, too nice, too caring or too meek, because he is still being judged on standards of masculinity and because women tend to find that position of power unattractive/unchallenging(leading to rejection/manipulation, instead of responsible handling/relinquishing of power).

There are a lot of other factors and gender dynamics that play into these issues that simply cannot be ignored the way feminists, or society at large, tends to do.

[–]la_sabotageTerp Terp Terp-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

A guy who treats women as equals would also find himself at a direct disadvantage, or position of vulnerability, when he becomes attracted to a woman(vulnerability that leads to compliance or insecurity). This typically results in that man being labelled a doormat, too available, too nice, too caring or too meek

Treating someone as an equal party is not the same thing as being submissive and meek. Quite the opposite, actually.

This is one of the weaknesses of TRP's relationship advice: TRP can only concieve of romantic relationships as a power differential - you're dominant or submissive, top or bottom, parent or child, master or dog. The only way to interact with a partner is either conquest or submission.

There is no valid TRP way for a redpiller to reach a mutually beneficial agreement, or to share the burden of decisionmaking in relationships - he needs to be either at the helm, issueing commands that are obeyed without question, or he is a submissive doormat with no rights.

[–]ExpendableOneNeither1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Treating someone as an equal party is not the same thing as being submissive and meek. Quite the opposite, actually.

That really doesn't make any sense(you are distorting some facts here to supplement your own ideals). If you start off as equals, and one person wants something more than the other, then by definition the person that has the higher desire/need is in a position of weakness/vulnerability(which, in turn, might make him/her meeker or more submissive). Women here, tend to naturally be in a position of power because of the social dynamics we live in(men pursue, women choose). There's no way around it.

And, really, in an egalitarian world(where men aren't held to the standards that they are) it really wouldn't matter if men were meek or submissive. Not only because those are expectations based on gender roles but because women would then also respond in an egalitarian way and either let go of some of that power(equalizing the relation) or embracing that position(despite gender roles). This is not the case. For a man not to feel vulnerable, he would either have to be in a position of power, see her as being disposable or see her as something less than equal; and this is the type of men/relation that the vast majority of women will seek, idealize and reward.

The only way to interact with a partner is either conquest or submission.

mmm... not really. Even for most redpills, there's a lot of nuance there. It's not that cut and dry, and it's not really helping your argument to project that onto RP or to caricature their points of views. Either way, you can't really argue against the fact that men, even RP men, are a lot more flexible, understanding and positive when it comes to meek or submissive women than the vast majority of women are towards meek or submissive men. Men would typically either embrace this about a girl they like or build her up with any kind of positive reinforcement they can, while women tend to just be very quick to judge and dismiss. The disparity here is a factor when it comes to these types of gender issues.

[–]la_sabotageTerp Terp Terp0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That really doesn't make any sense(you are distorting some facts here to supplement your own ideals).

You are right, if you're locked in the TRP mindset where one side has to be dominant and the other submissive, then no, it wouldn't make sense to have two masters, or two slaves.

What I am talking about is, either, negotiation as equals and shared responsibilities, or collective decisionmaking based on mutual compromise.

If you start off as equals, and one person wants something more than the other, then by definition the person that has the higher desire/need is in a position of weakness/vulnerability(which, in turn, might make him/her meeker or more submissive).

Everyone wants something more, and wants other things less. There is no such thing as "higher desire/need". There is, however, a plurality of needs, and if all you're aware of are your needs, then you're missing half of the relationship.

If you find that you are the only one who has a need/desire in a relationship, then that also means you are the only one whose needs are met in that relationship. Which in turn means that it's not a stable (or well working) relationship in the first place.

Women here, tend to naturally be in a position of power because of the social dynamics we live in(men pursue, women choose). There's no way around it.

That's one way to view it. Another way to view it is that women are trapped in the passive role and have to rely on men to make the first step in the relationship, and if they don't get "noticed" by the guys they actually want to notice them they're SOL.

Although, really, this isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Contrary to popular belief a lot of women do make the first step, and many men simply aren't very emotionally aware of women's feelings and need to be pushed.

Often, though, these same men react negatively when they aren't the attractive/dominant part in this exchange, thus reinforcing their confirmation bias in this regard.

Either way, you can't really argue that men, even RP men, are a lot more flexible, understanding and positive when it comes to meek or submissive women than the vast majority of women are towards meek or submissive men.

Maybe it has something to do with women being widely encouraged to be meek and submissive, while men are encouraged to be dominant and assertive? Isn't it especially RP men who crave meek and submissive women as partners?

How "flexible, understanding and positive" are RP men towards dominant, assertive women, hm?

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[–]M_rafayCrimson Red11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

That's a great way to blanket-insult everyone who's taken the time to give you a debate on this sub.

Even if you don't like some people, I don't believe most of them deserve that. I have responded to you many times and always tried my absolute best to be reasonable, detailed, and balanced even though your prompts are usually loaded one-liners, most of them insulting.

What you are doing here is nominally responding to OP while also doing your best to circlejerk, based on a position that appeals to people's prejudice while also providing no evidence to be refuted. I really expect your response to be NARPALT or something as BP circlejerky as that. There is no discussion that can stem from your response, and you don't intend it to.

All you want is to spite a RPer and put the slightest shred of your bitterness and malice in their heart as you can. You do this everywhere. You are one of the most "BP" debaters on this sub and I can't believe responses like this are upvoted. Do you guys WANT quality to nosedive? Do you want a fight... over the internet?

[–]la_sabotageTerp Terp Terp0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

There is no discussion that can stem from your response, and you don't intend it to.

There is no discussion that can stem from the typical TRP response to disagreement, which is "you don't understand TRP, read the sidebar, read a bunch of threads, then come back" even to people who clearly have read and digested their "official" texts at length and put some thought into replying to them.

To TRP, the usual response to disagreement is to assume either ignorance ("you don't understand TRP, read the sidebar"), willful ignorance ("you just cover your eyes and ears and live in a bubble"), or malice ("you're just a BPer, you're only out to insult us").

You guys literally cannot handle the possibility that somebody could have read your texts, understood the ideas laid out there, and willfully reject those ideas as hateful and bad.

[–]M_rafayCrimson Red4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

There is no discussion that can stem from the typical TRP response to disagreement, which is "you don't understand TRP, read the sidebar, read a bunch of threads, then come back" even to people who clearly have read and digested their "official" texts at length and put some thought into replying to them.

I can only speak for my responses to you(recent and old), and you are assuming a lot of willful head-in-the-sand when the situation was: You asked a question or stated an assumption. It was clearly wrong. I responded using links to tell you why.

You say "RP thinks feminists control the world". I respond by saying "that's a really simplified caricature. Here's X, Y, Z examples from OUTSIDE FUCKING RP to show you why the actual stance(that feminism affects/attempts to control the sexual market) is true". You say, "why is ok to generalize women, but not TRP?" I say "you are ignoring the differences in the actual generalities. X, Y, Z as evidence/examples". Does this fit your pattern? I think they do, I also noticed despite whatever discussion happens(you posting one sentence and sitting back) you really just go back to square 1 as if the discussion never happened. I'm not trying to be vain, but that sort of makes me think "why did I even bother?"

As long as we're on the subject of critiquing debaters, I mean.

You guys literally cannot handle the possibility that somebody could have read your texts, understood the ideas laid out there, and willfully reject those ideas as hateful and bad.

When someone demonstrably ignores the basics, makes strawmans while playing the quoting game, why is it not fair to quote counter-evidence right back? I had a really good discussion with /u/its-a-me-a-mario over PM, continuing our discussion from the thread. A BPer. I quoted stuff, right back at her. She responded admirably, and really taught me a thing or two about her culture, varied beliefs and why she thought redpill was hateful and wrong. I understood and agreed with her reasons.

Its the point where she tried to convince me where I reply vehemently that you are an utter hypocrite about. You cannot also accept that someone read those same texts, understood the ideas, and wilfully interpreted those ideas as not not hateful and bad. When you try to convince them, they will tell you why the fuck they think differently. Yet you are complaining they quote RP at you? Or loudly agree with RP and argue back? Has someone ever responded like that to you? Complaining about quoting, or complaining that you disagree?

Lets say we're in literature class. We are two students discussing a play. We have wildly differing explanations on the scene. Wouldn't context be a good thing to quote, if its relevant? If you are paraphrasing or misquoting stuff to suit your interpretation, wouldn't that be relevant to point out?

Where I empathize with you is someone just hands you a reading list without listening to your points. But then, when you make none(as above in your 2nd link), or when you make provably wrong ones(RPers absolutely never ever respect her opinions and feelings)... then you invite criticism. For what its worth, I vehemently disagree with the method those two responded to you. They were lazy, and personally insulting, and did not even explain their position.

But then... I see your posts a lot on here a lot. And I find you doing worse before being removed all the time.

[–]la_sabotageTerp Terp Terp1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Its the point where she tried to convince me where I reply vehemently that you are an utter hypocrite about. You cannot also accept that someone read those same texts, understood the ideas, and wilfully interpreted those ideas as not not hateful and bad.

I accept that a lot of people can genuinely buy into TRP ideas, and I am very deeply personally aware of the kind of mindset that makes TRP look sensible.

It's easy to blame others for one's own misery.

It's tempting to identify lack of sex as the one symptom of your unease and distress, and project your desire to have sex as the one solution to your problems.

It's understandable to latch onto a message that promises freedom and empowerment.

TRP has a lot to offer if you're a guy suffering from self worth issues, and if you've never experienced a loving and fulfilling relationship, or feel like you've been wronged, then TRP sounds incredibly appealing because it validates those feelings and makes them appear justified and rational.

.

None of that means that TRP ideas are not fundamentally a hateful, misguided, and toxic to any sort of healthy interaction with your social environment. It's a solution that, in the long run, is just as bad as the problem it claims to be a solution for, if not worse.

.

Lets say we're in literature class. We are two students discussing a play. We have wildly differing explanations on the scene. Wouldn't context be a good thing to quote, if its relevant? If you are paraphrasing or misquoting stuff to suit your interpretation, wouldn't that be relevant to point out?

This is where we enter the realm of false equivalence. TRP is not a book I'm reading for entertainment or intellectual stimulation.

TRP is an ideology that is hateful, disgusting, and fundamentally offensive to my intellect in several ways (from its reliance on pseudoscience to its puffed-up technobabble, to its tepid and petty-minded attempts at grand social theory).

There is nothing to be gained for me from interacting with it in a respectful manner.

There is nothing to be gained for me from accepting its ideas as valid and reasonable.

There is nothing to be gained for me from interacting with Redpillers in a way that treats their ideology with the same reverence and credence as they do.

I have no interest in becoming a TRP acolyte (which is what the more wordy redpillers like We_Are_Legion are really looking for in subreddits like this one) or accepting TRP as a valid outlook on life, any more than I have an interest in becoming a racist or a Neonazi (two other "growing communities" on reddit that have a lot of traction with young male redditors).

.

I am not going to convince you that TRP is wrong.

First of all, because I can't and won't do your reasoning for you, and your choices are your own to make.

Second of all, because your acceptance of TRP is not a result of objective, rational reasoning, it's a consequence of your personal situation and mental state, be it emotional, intellectual, or social/cultural. (That's not an attack on TRP specifically, all commitance to a particular set of theories that profess to explain the world for you is at least in part influenced by your individual situation).

tl;dr: I'm not going to convince you, and TRP has nothing to offer for me, so why on Earth should I treat TRP with the same respect as I would, say, Tolstoy?

.

Yet you are complaining they quote RP at you? Or loudly agree with RP and argue back? Has someone ever responded like that to you? Complaining about quoting, or complaining that you disagree?

No, I am not complaining that they quote TRP texts at me. In fact, the situation is usually the opposite:

I state an opinion on TRP.
Redpillers come in to attack/insult/complain that I don't understand TRP.
I show them the specific quotes from approved TRP content, i.e. sidebar texts or posts by approved content providers.
Redpillers claim that I'm reading them wrong, and continue to attack/insult/complain that I don't understand TRP.
I get angry and leave.

There is no room in the RP script for dealing with informed disagreement, and the way you guys are treating people who voice open disagreement (rather than just timidly feign ignorance like a lot of BPers here do in order to not be hounded by insulting RP posts all the time) just demonstrates that.

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Really? You're using 4chan as your citation? What are you, 14?

I wish. Would be nice to go back in time armed with the knowledge I have now. A lot of shit would have turned out differently, let me tell you.

How about you look at statistics and realize there's just as many women on the internet as men, and those women have different experiences than you that are just as valid?

Don't care. I know there's women on the net, but unless you wanna fuck, I don't care about your gender. If you have something to say, then you can do it without calling attention to the fact that you have a set of tits (like an equal), or are you saying you want special privileges? That's the point the pic is making.

If you weren't stuck in your bitter, angry, fallacy-ridden frame of mind you got reading all the propaganda surrounding TRP, you'd be capable of thinking critically and realizing I'm right.

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[–]ReginleiferOnly Zombies want female brains0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Nothing- Malcolm X

Yes I know he changed his views later, but I think his prior vision was better for any struggling community.

"Her clothes, her carriage, her accent," he wrote, "all showed Deep South breeding and money."

You can't really put yourself in another person's shoes no matter how much you try..... for example I don't understand what it's like to be a vapid white middle class girl in the US, I've met enough of them to gather some perspective but the moment they try to preach oppression, glass ceilings, and rape culture at me I just can't take them seriously, and I concluded that in order to truly understand first world problems I'd have to have been born in that environment. Can't just stroll from the death trap that is the ghetto and expect me to understand elevator-gate.

Don't really get the "socially concerned" faux liberal tendencies of some of the people in San Fran either..... I understand the need for some environmental protections, but growing up as I did the immediate effect I saw was the potential loss of income my father would incur after discovering that in a few years his trailer unit that he bought would no longer be allowed to operate in California. While I respect their perspective, one really needs to be from a certain background to be for something like that with no reservations. (Cause let's face it, it isn't their job/business on the line)

Point is very few people are capable of altering their paradigms to truly understand another people. And that's fine, live your life you don't need the RP's approval, or to truly understand something that will probably not affect you ever.

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[–]GridReXXit be like that6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago* (45 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

This feels more like victimizing and solopilism.

combine that with female solipsism and you get a objective view.

And then you invalidate any non TRP relationship because it doesn't put forth what you value.

I invalidate BP relationships because a woman has more freedom than a man, has more power and is not repramanded in abusing of both.

Maybe what you value isn't what women value.

Absolutely, that is why it is important to get a unbiassed perspective from the other side, beyond what men are usually "allowed to say".

she may feel like she gives more emotionally and support wise than him. That she's more rational. Of that she feels like a walking fleshlight.

because she compares herself with her lady friends and what society tells her it is enough, men don't, that is why committing is harder for us, we don't do it with just a toe or a life raft, if we are in we are in(that is why TRP advocates plate spinning, if neither of us is giving up our identity there is no abuse).

Women are allowed to define what commitment should be, what to give what to want, and even after they define it is reasonable to bend those rules according to her whims.(there are also women that get in relationships just not to be alone, they get a pet, for company, you can understand why i find that despicable because that pet is another human being).

Become gay. If that's your go to advice.

I would love to, I just don't like dicks and that would be unfair to my partner(funny how that isn't considered unfair if a heterosexual woman doesn't like her partners dick)

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (43 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (42 children) | Copy Link

Actually experiencing another persons unfilterded bias is the only way to break your own. There is no debating with a religious person, you can only shock him into agnosticism and hope he is smart enough to she the error of his ways. Compromise is a ideological cop out.

Pigeonholing BP relationships into one tiny group so as to blithely dismiss them.

I am not forcing any bouundaries. If your relationship is indeed equal and you suck your mans dick with the selflessness he employs when you complain about your day, you are an awesome couple. I have nothing against you, but if you are just doing favors for him while he renounces his hobbies, his friends, his happiness or his starwars poster for you, then fuck you, you are the problem.

Absolutely, that is why it is important to get a unbiassed perspective from the other side, beyond what men are usually "allowed to say". Once again dismissing anything contrary as just what men are being 'allowed to say'

When men will be as honest about how few women know how to suck dick as women are about our oral skills, then you may have a point, but until then you know very well men can't criticise women, unless they break up, and that is just frustrated bitching.

[–]GridReXXit be like that2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I am not forcing any bouundaries. If your relationship is indeed equal and you suck your mans dick with the selflessness he employs when you complain about your day, you are an awesome couple.

Dude...

So husbands/ boyfriends don't complain about their days? You have clearly never dated a man.

And only men like receiving oral sex "just because"?

I want to laugh but I can't tell if this is serious?

When men will be as honest about how few women know how to suck dick as women are about our oral skills, then you may have a point, but until then you know very well men can't criticise women, unless they break up, and that is just frustrated bitching.

Right... and when more women speak out about how their man doesn't satisfy her in bed... but alas women have to deal with frail egos too at the expense of their own pleasure.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]GridReXXit be like that3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

How many women are actually vocal with men they are actually fucking about the sex being dissatisfying? Not many at all.

and everyone is encouraging them to do so.

But...

How many men can be vocal? not to mention "ecouraged"

Women at least can complain to other women(and they do, A LOT). If men say something they are douchebags.

Both men and women have burdens?

that is not an impass, I absolutely agree. You just misrepresent how rare and difficult it actually is for men to speak up and criticize ANYTHING a woman does especially while in a relationship with that woman, not to mention getting her to actually do something about it.

But the true impasse is that "outside", in the blue pill society where red pill ideas are pure heresy unless linked to some traditionalist or religious bullshit. This shity deal men get, this imbalance is considered normal and you accept it.

[–]GridReXXit be like that2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Women at least can complain to other women(and they do, A LOT). If men say something they are douchebags.

You don't converse an unfiltered manner with your friends? That seems more of a personal problem than a gendered problem.

You just misrepresent how rare and difficult it actually is for men to speak up and criticize ANYTHING a woman does especially while in a relationship with that woman,

Again, this seems like a personal issue for you. Every relationship I've been in... the lines of communication were open. If anything guys are probably more communicative.

not to mention getting her to actually do something about it.

Again... personal issue for you. This doesn't seem like a gendered issue.

This shity deal men get, this imbalance is considered normal and you accept it.

You need a hug...

...but again this still feels like a personal problem for you.

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Put some effort into understanding the male perspective, the genuine male wants and needs, not the bullshit blue pill rom com shit we've been told all our lives to say to either get you to limit your insecurity or to get you into bed. (hint: we want sexual validation from women, we will move mountains for that to happen, don't make us lie about it)

The male perspective, or just yours? I think that you are under the impression that you can speak for all men.

The reason you'll move mountains for some pootang is because society did an excellent job selling sex as a way to measure manliness. You're not the only one, millions upon millions of men believe that the only way to measure manliness is to fuck as many women as you can, the more notches the better, even if she's irritating as shit.

We do not want a successful 28 year old with small tits , a flabby tummy, an attitude problem that does not want to jump our bone everytime she sees us.

Eh, I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of men who are attracted to that.

But like I previously mentioned, we will do anything for sex even bad, ungratefull, pity sex. It feels good to us, and the validation feels good to you, it is not love it is just a unhealty emotional filler.

It's unhealthy from both sides.

Think of all that you are and ask yourself for whom you are all that(not it's not for yourself, that is bullshit SOMEONE TOLD YOU THAT being a nurse is good, that being a webcam girl is empowering)

This is pretty insulting to the women who do things to better themselves and only themselves. Actually, it's pretty insulting to anyone who does things to make themselves a better person. Self-improvement is a thing for both men and women.

(and this goes for all women) Think of the shit he does for you compared to what you for him(emotional shit, not that 50% relationship bs) and then think of how much grief you give him compared to how much he gives you, think of how compliant and easy going he is compared to you, think of how many bullshit needs, conditions and rules you have compared to him.

(and this goes for all men) Think of the shit she does for you compared to what you for her (emotional shit, not the 50% relationship bs) and then think of how much grief you give her compared to how much she gives you, think of how compliant and easy going she is compared to you, think of how many bullshit needs, conditions and rules you have compared to her.

Relationships are a two way street.

ALL THAT IS FOR PUSSY

Huh, I thought it was all for love.

and despite that, he still understands that you are "tired", that you don't put any effort in your encounters for his benefit and that "your pleasure comes first".

How dare she not give up the sex that he is owed.

(are men better than women, when it comes to being in a blue pill relationship, absolutely, we are fucking saints, it would be better if we where more men but society gave us the job to be martyrs on the pussy altar and we do our job)

Why are you victimizing yourself? Are red pill relationships the only ones that work for men?

the egalitarian respect you had for every human dwindled when it comed to boys. They started acting funny around you and as a response you started to be more protective, distant keeping guys at a arms lenght. That is when our paths separated completely.

The first part of this is you victimizing yourself again. As for the rest, boys and girls go through puberty differently. They push eachother away, it's normal.

We of course need to have everyday civilised human interactions but our brains are in completely different spaces, reality is different, we interact with the world in completely different ways and the world in term gives us gender specific reactions.

Sure, your experiences and how you were raised also factor into your thoughts and reactions. Gender is part of it, but it's a very small part.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I think that you are under the impression that you can speak for all men.

Not really a personal perspective, I just found the first person more usefull. I can speak for the average man more truthfully than a brain washed blupper.

The reason you'll move mountains for some pootang is because society did an excellent job selling sex as a way to measure manliness. You're not the only one, millions upon millions of men believe that the only way to measure manliness is to fuck as many women as you can, the more notches the better, even if she's irritating as shit.

very astute of you, I agree.

Eh, I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of men who are attracted to that.

if she is there, anything is better than nothing, the "meta" of post modern masculinity

It's unhealthy from both sides.

It's our biological curse, in relationships where both ego's are banned, it can work nicely

Self-improvement is a thing for both men and women.

no, self improvement is a thing for a man's ego or balls, while for a woman it's all about ego.

Think of the shit she does for you compared to what you for her (emotional shit, not the 50% relationship bs) and then think of how much grief you give her compared to how much she gives you, think of how compliant and easy going she is compared to you, think of how many bullshit needs, conditions and rules you have compared to her.

No, it doesn't, sorry women rarely put up with a man's shit and if they do, they aren+t in a blue pill relationship.

Relationships are a two way street.

and blue pill relationships have a high way reserved for women.(count yourself lucky if she only uses one lane)

How dare she not give up the sex that he is owed.

how dare he not give her the validation, affection and emotional comfort she deserves! What kind of boyfriend are you?

Why are you victimizing yourself?

because it's the internet?"?

Are red pill relationships the only ones that work for men?

actually no, they work better for women, men still have to work for it, it+s just more enjoyable work and less stressful.

Sure, your experiences and how you were raised also factor into your thoughts and reactions. Gender is part of it, but it's a very small part.

I disagree, some developental psychologist also disagree, but the current academic agenda is to agree that gender is just a unfortunate misshap, something easaly corrected.(god I hope your young so you can remember how wrong you where durring this period of feel good bullshit)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Not really a personal perspective, I just found the first person more usefull. I can speak for the average man more truthfully than a brain washed blupper.

Can you speak for the average RPer? Sure. For the average man? Not really.

if she is there, anything is better than nothing, the "meta" of post modern masculinity

I don't know what you mean by this.

no, self improvement is a thing for a man's ego or balls, while for a woman it's all about ego.

But you just said that it is also for the man's ego. Is there no such thing as self improvement?

No, it doesn't, sorry women rarely put up with a man's shit and if they do, they aren+t in a blue pill relationship.

This is all speculation on your part. Both tend to put up with eachother's shit, at least in a healthy relationship. There are plenty of ways to go about having a healthy relationship, RP isn't the only option.

because it's the internet?"?

So you think victimizing yourself is a good way to further your point?

actually no, they work better for women, men still have to work for it, it+s just more enjoyable work and less stressful.

Why do you think women have the better end of the deal when it comes to relationships? I never understood this.

I disagree, some developental psychologist also disagree, but the current academic agenda is to agree that gender is just a unfortunate misshap, something easaly corrected.

I never said gender wasn't a part of it, it's just a very small part. For example, you have two marines, one is a man the other is a woman. They both go through the same shit during war and loose the same amount of comrades. Are their perspectives on war different? Perhaps. Does it have anything to do with their genitals? Probably not.

(god I hope your young so you can remember how wrong you where durring this period of feel good bullshit)

So you disagree with me, but instead of accepting that I have a different perspective, you've decided that I am flat out wrong. Okay.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Can you speak for a north koreean prisoner, people are not that diverse and unique. Unfairness affects us universally, some of us are just convinced it's for the better or this is how things should be.

The "objective" of the modern man is not not be alone, not to have a family, not to be happy, but to find someone to give his love to.(this is message more prevasive than the "be hot" message women get)

I think you should be honest with yourself and realise that self imporvement isn't "for you", it's for external validation. It just so happens that it is sexually apealing for women, but it's not for men, it's at best a interesting personality trait some men find interesting.

I think victimising myself is a good way to communicate with people that don't accept male victimhood, but embrace the universality of female victimhood.

In general, because they can literally just stay there, and most men will do all the work, everything, just for some pussy from time to time. In red pill relationships because women are just naturally happy, loving, relaxed, sexually expresive . When you compare them with the average "non opressed" feminists it's like night and day, and that makes you in term virtually unable to not love them, to not want to give them anything they want, again, giving them the better end of the deal, the just give you more than sex.

For example, you have two marines, one is a man the other is a woman. They both go through the same shit during war and loose the same amount of comrades. Are their perspectives on war different?

if she went trough a easier training rregime, yes, if she never saw direct front lines combat yes, if she was raped repeatedly by her CO, yes; if they both where detained, and if was forgotten while she became a news headliner and public sweeheart and freed within days, yes and if he's wife had filed for divorce and got custody and alimony by a judge while he was still detached, yes, his experience would very much be different, and there is no reason at all other than society treats us different according to our genitals, you can't not separate a person and consider him gendereless.

you've decided that I am flat out wrong. Okay.

the notion that "gender is a small part of it" is ludicrous. It is ideologically based, I can not break trough ideology, I can point you in the direction of evolutionary psychologists, or anthropologists, but that is just "heresy".

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Can you speak for a north koreean prisoner, people are not that diverse and unique. Unfairness affects us universally, some of us are just convinced it's for the better or this is how things should be.

I never said people are diverse and unique. I said that you can only speak for yourself.

The "objective" of the modern man is not not be alone, not to have a family, not to be happy, but to find someone to give his love to.

I'm pretty sure this is the general objective of both genders.

I think you should be honest with yourself and realise that self imporvement isn't "for you", it's for external validation. It just so happens that it is sexually apealing for women, but it's not for men, it's at best a interesting personality trait some men find interesting.

But self improvement is "for you" hence the name self-improvement. I'm an artist, I try to improve everyday. I don't do it to impress my spouse, I don't do it to impress my friends, I do it because it makes me happy. The fact that they are impressed or whatever is merely a side affect.

Women who self-improve are not sexually appealing to men? Are you sure about that?

I think victimising myself is a good way to communicate with people that don't accept male victimhood, but embrace the universality of female victimhood.

A good way to communicate male victim-hood is to bring forth articles and stats that back up your assertion. It makes your argument much more convincing than victimizing yourself. Doing what you are doing makes it hard to take you seriously.

In general, because they can literally just stay there, and most men will do all the work, everything, just for some pussy from time to time.

Well if you are one of the few men that pedestalize women, then yeah sure, all she has to do is show up. But this is not the norm, women work for relationships just as much as men. They go about it somewhat differently. This is actually a lot more common than you think. Red pill relationships are not the only types of relationships where women are naturally happy.

if she went trough a easier training rregime, yes, if she never saw direct front lines combat yes, if she was raped repeatedly by her CO, yes; if they both where detained, and if was forgotten while she became a news headliner and public sweeheart and freed within days, yes and if he's wife had filed for divorce and got custody and alimony by a judge while he was still detached, yes, his experience would very much be different

That's a lot of "ifs" that have nothing to do with what I said in the first place.

and there is no reason at all other than society treats us different according to our genitals, you can't not separate a person and consider him gendereless.

But he is an individual before he is a man, and this individual will have more in common with his female marine counterpart than he ever will with his civilian male friends back home.

the notion that "gender is a small part of it" is ludicrous. It is ideologically based, I can not break trough ideology, I can point you in the direction of evolutionary psychologists, or anthropologists, but that is just "heresy".

Men and women are more alike than they are different. Gender does not stack up to environmental factors, life experiences, and how they were raised when it comes to reactions and thoughts. It plays a part, don't get me wrong, just not a big part.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Women who self-improve are not sexually appealing to men? Are you sure about that?

Unless they do it for the man, yes, it's just bussy work men only convince themselfs to give a fguck about because tahta is what a good SO does.(think of how horrible you are if you don't support your SO's dreams of being a artist)

the few men that pedestalize women

few, yeah right...

women work for relationships just as much as men. They go about it somewhat differently

that is the thing, differently in a blue pill context means less,

he is an individual before he is a man

he is a individual to himself(and even that is filtered trough emotions that are caused by external and biological reactions to him being a man) while he is clearly a man, when dealing with another woman as sexual partners both him and his land counterpart are percieve the same. Any comonality you build between the genders does not go deep enough to change their sexual strategy.

For example, after participants in one experiment were told that they would not be identified as male or female, nor did they wear any identification, none conformed to stereotypes about their sex when given the chance to be aggressive. In fact, they did the opposite of what would be expected - women were more aggressive and men were more passive.

interesting - kinda how feminism works

Aldought, I am arguing that those differences are produced due to gender, not just as a external cosequence of gender. YOu know why boys doe better at math, because they are pushed to do better, because that small margin of "you go girl", or "well you worked hard enough" is enough to count for the difference.

Even when differences are found, we cannot conclude that they are immutable because the continuous interplay of biological and environmental influences can change the size and direction of the effects some time in the future."

I wonder what differences they found? well the whole point of the study was to prove there are no gender differences(at least no those that are in urban folcklore) so pointing out that there are would have been counterproductive.

BTW, do feminist know about this guy, because a lot of them still argue that men are intrinsicaly agressive just because "penis".

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Unless they do it for the man, yes, it's just bussy work men only convince themselfs to give a fguck about because tahta is what a good SO does.

So are men the only ones that actually self improve?

that is the thing, differently in a blue pill context means less,

That's what it means to you. Differently in any context means differently.

he is a individual to himself(and even that is filtered trough emotions that are caused by external and biological reactions to him being a man) while he is clearly a man, when dealing with another woman as sexual partners both him and his land counterpart are percieve the same. Any comonality you build between the genders does not go deep enough to change their sexual strategy.

You're shifting the goalposts. Of course men and women are different when it comes to sexual strategy. That wasn't what I was talking about in the first place.

interesting - kinda how feminism works

How so?

Aldought, I am arguing that those differences are produced due to gender, not just as a external cosequence of gender. YOu know why boys doe better at math, because they are pushed to do better, because that small margin of "you go girl", or "well you worked hard enough" is enough to count for the difference.

Those differences are very slight and do not make as much of an impact as environmental factors and life experiences. People aren't mentally molded by what's in their pants. As for the rest, would you mind elaborating because I don't follow.

I wonder what differences they found? well the whole point of the study was to prove there are no gender differences(at least no those that are in urban folcklore) so pointing out that there are would have been counterproductive.

The whole point of the study was to prove that society over exaggerates the differences between men and women. The differences that they found were pretty small and they couldn't determine wether they were biological or not.

BTW, do feminist know about this guy, because a lot of them still argue that men are intrinsicaly agressive just because "penis".

I'm not a feminist so I don't know.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

So are men the only ones that actually self improve?

no, we again do it either for our egos or to get laid(if whe plan that far ahead)

That wasn't what I was talking about in the first place.

similar experiences build similar personas. No?

In our post feminist world, there is a excess of docile betas and a spectacular increase in obnoxious women.

Those differences are very slight and do not make as much of an impact as environmental factors and life experiences.

fair enough, but feminist use the argument of self esteem to argue the same statistic, do you find their explication more influential?

People aren't mentally molded by what's in their pants. As for the rest, would you mind elaborating because I don't follow.

atractive men get a small break, women get a bigger break in general, atractive women get the biggest break.

I'm not a feminist so I don't know.

you are, you just don't like the name.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

no, we again do it either for our egos or to get laid(if whe plan that far ahead)

So there is no such thing as self improvement?

similar experiences build similar personas. No?

Yes but I wasn't even talking about sexual strategy.

In our post feminist world, there is a excess of docile betas and a spectacular increase in obnoxious women.

In your opinion. Can't say I've had the same experience.

fair enough, but feminist use the argument of self esteem to argue the same statistic, do you find their explication more influential?

No because I'm not a feminist.

atractive men get a small break, women get a bigger break in general, atractive women get the biggest break.

Attractive people get passes for being attractive, man or woman. This has nothing to do with what I was saying.

you are, you just don't like the name.

Assuming false things about your opponent doesn't make your argument sound any better.

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Title	What could I, as a woman, do to understand the red pill?
Author	arguesforarguing
Upvotes	19
Comments	335
Date	August 19, 2014 3:41 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2dy89m/what_could_i_as_a_woman_do_to_understand_the_red/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-could-i-as-a-woman-do-to-understand-the-red.285062 https://theredarchive.com/post/285062

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