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Speaking of "Backing Into The Red Pill": Another female advice columnist on "Bad Boys"

[deleted]

July 4, 2014

16 upvotes

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/relationships/10357878/Why-women-cant-resist-bad-boys.html

Most of the men I know are kind, polite and adorable in practically every way, yet, like many women, I have an illogical soft-spot for massive jerks. There is something about bad boys that we find incredibly appealing, even though we often regret the experience afterwards. I'm so drawn to their powerful/sensitive/artistic (delete as applicable) natures that it allows me to rationalise away their abusive, selfish, sarcastic or psychopathic side, until it's too late. I don't know whether it's chemistry or foolishness on my part, but let me try to explain why we - or at least I - do it.

She then proceeds to give us the same platitudes about self-punishment that we usually see as rationalizations, but is remarkably frank about what RP refers to as "gina tingles", and closes with this perfect 'beta bux', she'll eventually make some nice guy very happy tagline:

Or perhaps I just haven't met the right "nice guy" yet?

So tell me, is it just my confirmation bias at work, or does this article just explain "RP Truths" from a female perspective, using ordinary vocabulary?

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Post Information

Title	Speaking of "Backing Into The Red Pill": Another female advice columnist on "Bad Boys"
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	16
Comments	79
Date	July 4, 2014 8:41 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/29uptp/speaking_of_backing_into_the_red_pill_another/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/speaking-of-backing-into-the-red-pill-another.285377 https://theredarchive.com/post/285377

Comments

[–]codeverity9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (62 children) | Copy Link

It does happen, which I personally think is a huge problem in our society. Look at 50 Shades, Twilight, etc - "bad boys" are glorified in our culture and the dream of taming one is very real. I think this is really the root of the problem - a lot of things that are aimed at women push them towards glorifying alpha characteristics.

In reality, I think it translates to a lot of men and women getting hurt. Even TRP says that not all men can be alpha, so by default that means that some men will get rejected and hurt. Women get hurt by glorifying bad boys and then being dumped (something I've seen happen more than once). I also think it all goes hand in hand with some fucked up ideas about sex when it comes to each gender - TRP encourages men to get as much sex as possible, but simultaneously tells them not to settle down with those women who have given them sex. It's sexism at it's base - men should "spread their seed", but women should keep their legs shut. I don't think TRP has much value in doing anything other than helping men get laid, it doesn't teach them how to relate with or build relationships with women.

I think we're getting better at identifying and criticizing some of the toxic stuff in our culture - 50 shades and Twilight got a lot of criticism - but we need to go further to fix it all instead of just thinking it's all innate and not something that can be controlled.

[–][deleted] 10 points10 points10 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[–]codeverity6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (54 children) | Copy Link

Feminism really does wrap right back around to Victorian prudery, apparently.

Not at all. I'm not at all saying that sex is bad, quite the opposite - I think the viewpoint should be that BOTH men and women should be free to have as much sex as they like without judgement or this viewpoint that it's wrong.

I don't have a problem with things in TRP like confidence, not putting women on a pedestal, etc, etc. I do have a problem with viewing it as bad that women may have multiple sexual partners, the attitudes I see that women don't bring anything of value to a committed relationship if they've had sex with beyond a certain number, etc, etc.

I also think that outright assholes like Christian and Edward (who are stalkery, abusive jerks) should not be glorified and viewed as 'sexy' in our culture, and I think more women need to be aware of what they're responding to and analyse what's unhealthy about it. There's a difference between a strong man who is able to stand up for himself and a man who is abusive and controlling.

[–]through_a_ways10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

[–]codeverity2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

I regularly see some variant of "no right to judge you", as if you have a human right, or a legally endowed right, to have people not hold disagreeable opinions about you or certain things that you do.

That's because society is pushing away from the morals that it held previously.

The evolution of society inevitably means that judgements that were the norm years ago eventually shift and become disfavoured. Society used to judge people and how wealthy they are by how many slaves they had, whereas today that's taboo, for example.

What I'm simply saying is that in my opinion, society will be far healthier when we stop having a negative view towards sex and how much of it we have, and when we stop having double standards depending on which gender we're talking about. Men shouldn't be made to feel like failures if they don't have sex and have it often, and women shouldn't be made to feel like sluts if they have sex and have it often. People should be free to do what they want.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]codeverity4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]Villaintine╰▄︻▄╯6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]codeverity-2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Villaintine╰▄︻▄╯7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]codeverity0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Thought policing would be if I tried to actively punish people for their thoughts, or tried to stop them in some fashion. That's not what I'm trying to do. Instead I take the time to point out what I think are the holes in the logic that other people use, or places where they are being hypocritical, with the goal of maybe making them reconsider their position.

As you said, there's no freedom from consequence - a consequence of people thinking that women sleeping with as many people as they want is a bad thing is me and people like me pointing out the problems in that idea. Some people argue that the biggest problem with religion is the way they cast judgement on others, for example.

I think that every person in the world unconsciously or consciously wishes that their society would move more towards the viewpoints that they feel are appropriate and right.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]StabbyPantsPillhead0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]codeverity-2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

That's your decision and you're entitled to it, absolutely. I just don't see the sense in it and never have, to be honest. I think sex is great so of course people want to have as much of it as they can, and I don't see how that detracts for their ability to be involved in an LTR, nor how one gender is less likely to be good in an LTR than the other. I mean, tbh, I've known many guys who sleep around, get into a relationship and then hurt the woman by cheating on her, so I think the risks are the same on both sides. A peek at /r/relationships shows a pretty steady stream of both men and women who have been cheated on.

Personally, I would never hold a potential partner to a standard that I don't expect of myself - if I have five partners and my partner has five partners, why would I look down on them for it? It's like if I have credit card debt, why would I say 'nope, I don't want a partner with credit card debt'. The only time I would accept that as reasonable would be if the person saw it as a negative, but in TRP conversations the male's sexual partner count is never seen in a negative light.

Idk, I guess I just think it would be more healthy and reasonable for TRP to say 'hey guys, let's help you get laid often' without all this value judgement that comes along with it in regards to how many partners a woman has had. I mean, let's bring sexuality into it for a moment - what would you say to gay men, or lesbians, or a lesbian with a bisexual woman, etc? Are gay men free to sleep around merrily and be 'alphas' together? Are lesbians supposed to only have one partner? Or if you say the usual rules don't apply, then why are the rules so intrinsic to m/f relationships but not m/m and f/f?

[–]tryin2figureitoutRP male since before it was cool9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I posted this in another thread about slut shaming any why men are less likely to like sluts. I think it applies here:

I don't think there is a lot of "slut shaming" going on between guys and girls. Whenever I've seen guys make the determination that a girl is a slut they are usually thrilled, I mean they respect her less and talk about her behind her back, but they don't shame her cause that would make her less likely to sleep with them.

But, when it does happen I think its a two part reason, and it took me a while to accept this about myself. First is jealousy. a girl can live with her parents, be unemployed, borderline illiterate, with no car, at 26, even a little over weight, and still have a phenomenal sex life. Bars, clubs, the pool, online everywhere she goes her body is in demand. If she wants to experiment with different types of men or positions or methods nothing is holder her back except her imagination. There was a post on xojane about a girl who admitted to being a sex addict. After leaving home she discovered craigslist casual encounters and a star was born. She would have multiple men in the same day, sometimes logging back in to craigslist minutes after her last encounter left to set up another. She racked up something like over a 100 men in a year. Can you imagine having that power? Just cruising online and have sex delivered to your door in 30 mins or less cause your feeling a little down today? Hell the guys would even bring alcohol and I'm pretty sure food if she wanted it. The ONLY thing that stops women from doing this is choice. And the reason this happens is pretty simple, there are way, way, way more men available and looking for casual sex than there are women. And I'm jealous as fuck of that somewhat cute girl at the bar that doesn't even have to try. There are men that have this life too, but they're extremely good looking, top 5%.

The second reason is control (or fear of loss of control). I meet a girl and we're on the same level, similar education, income, attractiveness, perfectly suited for each other. I like her, I find her attractive, I can envision being with her, and then I find out she's a slut. Then its like I can see me through her eyes. I'm just what's fun now. She's got a phone full of numbers and at my best, most charming, most funny self I can't replace the attention or enjoyment she gets from 10 guys. She'll never "be mine" is how I see it. If we get in a fight, she'll leave and call someone else. We're not on a level playing field. And its not because she's better looking than me or smarter than me, or more accomplished than me, we're even in all of those regards, but if she's a slut she's got other men around and that gives her power. The power to ignore me and not feel lonely, the power to move on quickly, the power to not care. Our relationship is fundamentally unequal because I'll be more afraid of her leaving than she'll be afraid to go. And if she quits being a slut for me she can always go back to it whenever she wants, and if they enjoyed it they usually do because no single person replace all the sex, attention, praise and adoration that comes from that lifestyle. Its a lifestyle of instant gratification. And I have no power, just fear of when she'll want to move on.

[–]codeverity-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]tryin2figureitoutRP male since before it was cool4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Chicago craigslist casual encounters

http://chicago.craigslist.org/search/cas/?query=w4m

Women for men section 2715 posts listed. Many fakes, several prostitutes

http://chicago.craigslist.org/search/cas/?query=m4w

Men for women section 8422 posts listed. No motivation for fakes. Male hetero prostitutes rare.

That's almost a 4 to 1 ratio of men looking for casual sex compared to women in a random city.

Top tier guys do not have it, "just as easy". There are fewer women down for casual sex with a stranger. Top tier guys compete against each other for the smaller population of available women.

It is incredibly easy to pick up men. There was an experiment done at a University where they had a man and a woman stand in front of a building and proposition members of the opposition sex. The women received an 80% positive response rate. The men got no takers.

If you want to test my theory, create a craigslist account. Go to casual encounters and post a faceless pic of yourself along with a blurb describing what you want, then wait 30 minutes. Then cackle wildly at the power you just discovered.

They absolutely can be applied to either genders. I wouldn't set my sister or a female friend up with a man whore. And yes women try to make the whole slut thing about morality or social conditioning and I've never understood that. It's clearly about trust. That's why they say you can never trust a slut. Also, my brother is extremely gay and he has made it clear to me sluts and the concept of sluts exist in the gay community. So this isn't just anti-women.

And yes its cutting off possibilities. Possibilities for pain, abandonment, embarrassment etc.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

A lot of it is baggage. For the record, I have dated girls with high partner counts (north of 30 by age 24), and my experience tells me to avoid them for long term relationships. There's invariably some number of mistakes in there, which I don't want to have dumped on my doorstep, and I don't want to be with someone who is impulsive and has a history of poor decision-making. There's also a direct correlation between the number of partners a woman has had, and the chance of divorce (source, source). This is nothing new, Kinsey supposedly reached a similar conclusion in 1948, but I haven't actually pulled the study. Yes, I recognize the distinction between correlation and cause, but if I'm going to trust a woman with half my shit, do you think that overly matters?

At the end of the day, it's just a difference in values. I'm not the kind of guy who wants to fuck heaps of girls, I'd rather just have one good one. I don't need fuck buddies, ONS', or any of that crap; I'm a pretty stable, educated guy, who'd like to meet a similarly minded girl to eventually start a family. In that context, yeah, I'm gonna judge a girl based on the past decisions she's made, including her sexual history, as is my right. If she was interested in an LTR, and she failed to the tune of 20 or 30 times, I'm not betting my life that I can change her. Similarly, if she valued sex over relationships, I don't want to be gambling my worth on the fact that she's changed. I'm an engineer, and I believe that past performance predicts future results.

[edit: further to this, it's nothing for a woman to rack up a partner count, I've watched girls go absolutely wild in their early 20s. For a guy to do the same involves a lot of work, or for him to be unusually attractive. Restraint on a woman's behalf is a hell of a lot more attractive to me, because it shows she values sex, relationships etc.]

[–]tryin2figureitoutRP male since before it was cool0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]40WattsAmused Master7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago* (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]codeverity0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

No, I strongly disagree with pretty much all you said. Humans are complex, thinking creatures and considering all that we have accomplished and learned it's silly to say 'well, biology' when it comes to slutshaming women and glorifying men for what are in essence, the same actions. We're not helpless to control how we think and how we judge people. Of course a lot of things in our culture are rooted in the way things used to work, but in 2014 I disagree with the idea that they are still valid, necessary or relevant.

Look at the change that's happen in the last one hundred years alone - it used to be that women weren't supposed to EVER have sex outside of marriage, or outside of one partner. Now even most TRPers set an arbitrary number of sexual partners they would be okay with. That in itself is evidence of the fact that society can, does and should change. With various forms of birth control and our growing awareness of our own behaviour and how and why we do the things we do, we have more and more ability to actually change all of it.

I would actually argue that women find characters like Christian and Edward sexy due to the way society glorifies them, and their purchasing power drives further glorification in society that then leads to women finding them sexy, etc. It's a circle that needs to be broken, not just accepted as fact.

[–]MagicGainbowKeepin' it real, havin' a feel12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]codeverity2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]40WattsAmused Master9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

It's naive to think you can "fix" your biological nature. It's like trying to "fix" a gay person. Men will always be less willing to commit to a woman who has had a lot of partners. When they find out a woman has been pumped and dumped multiple times without ever receiving commitment, then they question why they should commit to her if the other men didn't have to. The woman has made herself look easy. If a woman wants to sleep around she should understand that it will be detrimental to her value as a long term partner. Sure you can complain about what men find attractive and why it should change but you can not change what men find attractive. The idea of promiscuous women being bad long term relationship prospects is not a societal issue because it occurs everywhere regardless of culture or time period.

[–]codeverity-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I don't believe in biological 'truths', and I don't believe that human behaviour and instinct is set in stone. I feel this way about a lot of things that TRP discusses. A lot of TRP just takes issues in society and tries to work around them, which is fine, but sometimes it looks at certain things as unchangeable and 'just the way things are', and that's where I disagree, because I think things can change.

You say 'men will always be less willing to commit to a woman who has had a lot of partners', but the fact is, that's already changing. Look at the last one hundred years of history, even, and tell me whether you honestly believe it's just as unacceptable for a woman to have more than one sexual partner now as it was back in 1914. Change can, does and should happen, it just takes time. I've met plenty of men both online and offline who don't care how many partners a woman has had

I've yet to find a single argument about why women sleeping with fewer men is 'valuable' that actually makes sense to me in a modern context. Look at your own arguments - I could just as easily say that a promiscuous man has proven that women don't want to commit to him, that he's made himself look easy, that it's detrimental to his value as a long term partner. Another argument that I've seen is that the man brings his assets and money to the relationship, a woman brings her low partner count and fertility - but this ignores the fact that many women now make an equal amount or even more than their partners, and also that many couples remain childless.

Our society will continue to morph and change as time goes on and usually that's a good thing.

[–]40WattsAmused Master8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

If you don't believe in biological truths then I can't argue on that point further. TRP is not trying to change things the way are, it's adjusting yourself to benefit from the way things are. You're right, change does happen and it is more acceptable for women to have more sexual partners than in 1914. Because it's acceptable for women to have more than one sexual partner now, men have to adjust their expectations. It's harder to find a girl with lower partner count but men will always prefer a girl with lower count for an LTR. Sure there are men who don't care how many partners a woman has had and unfortunately they're more likely to get cheated on, broken up with, divorced or fucked over. TRP does not have a specific partner count that identifies a woman as a "slut". It just advises men to be wary of a woman's sexual past. It warns men that if she has a high partner count then she has been in many relationships that didn't work out or she gives out sex very easily. If a woman is identified as a "slut", men just target her as a quick and easy lay not worth putting time and effort into.

Sure you can counter my argument that way, however women and men have different sexual strategies. The qualities men find attractive in a woman are not all the same as the qualities women find attractive in a man. Men value sex while women value commitment. Women don't see a man who has lots of sex while rarely committing as easy. They see him as harder to obtain because he rarely commits. A man who commits as soon as possible is seen as easy. How many times have you heard a woman complaining about men using her for sex? Some men are so high value that women will have sex with them without expecting commitment (Famous actors, models or rock stars).

Women do often make an equal amount or even more than their partners but the truth is that they would rather have a partner who makes more. Women want a man who is better than them in certain aspects: older, stronger, taller, smarter and richer. Women have to settle for men who are not always richer than them because women now have the ability to make as much money as a man does. This is similar to how men now have to settle for women with higher sexual partner counts than men from 100 years ago.

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I dunno in my experience there are plenty of actual crazy bitches, either that or I'm a magnet for them for some reason, and they're all pretty difficult to detect until you're in a relationship with them. I definitely don't specifically go looking for them.

One of my ex's self-harmed because it turned her on (including carving my name into her skin) and cried just because I had to leave her house to go home after I visited her. I dunno about you but describing someone with those kind of traits as a "crazy bitch" is rude but not inaccurate and there was no way for me to know she was like that until after we got into a relationship. Most people won't advertise they self-harm for sexual pleasure after all.

That same girl, 18 years old (we were both 18 at the time) then began a relationship with a 50 year old guy a week after we broke up. Hey ho.

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Ime, being with a narcissist kind of crushed all my more explosive BPD tendencies and made me into a passive aggressive calculated manipulator. He wasn't immune, but it turned quickly into a battle of wits and strength and ego. The site that hyperreal linked intrigues me because it says the borderline always wins, lol. I feel like I decidedly lost. I mean, the way the site describes narcissism actually sounds more like codependence, especially the "rescuer" stuff.

I would think that the Dark Triad lack of empathy would make them nearly immune to the BPD 'life-sucking' demands

Borderlines are pretty known for their lack of empathy as well, and narcissists for their demanding nature. There are a lot of similarities in general thoughts and feelings, hence the magnetism towards each other. Even when I extracated myself from that relationship, I found a best friend almost immediately after with narcissistic traits and we connected very quickly because we had such similar mindsets. In some cases I suspect that the reason someone is diagnosed one way rather than the other, when it's not so clear-cut, is solely due to gender.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points1 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I've tended to run the other way when faced with that type of behavior

You'd think that would be the natural reaction, but people are drawn to me in the same way people are drawn to Dark Triad. God knows why, I spend all my energy effectively trying to drive them away.

effectively cultivated a near-autistic social blindness, because if I let myself be aware of other people's vulnerabilities and weaknesses, I couldn't stop myself from using them.

Manipulation is so second nature to me that I do it sometimes without any intention or awareness. It's only now that I can look back at my high school experiences and realize I have always been manipulating the people around me and not even I really knew it. I've been "recovering" from BPD for a little over a year now and I'm always on guard, but still sometimes the best I can do is offer an apology. I don't know that I could develop social blindness, reading social cues is one of my most ingrained defense mechanisms. All my other symptoms I can more or less control, but the manipulation, yeah, I just can't stop myself.

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