The EMSK "Red Pill Will Kill You Inside" post

2014-06-30T23:47:00+00:00

Well, there's been a long indictment of TRP posted to r/everymanshouldknow: http://www.redditlog.com/snapshots/773709 There's a lot there, some of it...

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This post by /u/drapollo pretty much summed it up for me:

The thing you all need to realize is that the only difference between manipulation and what he's talking about is that he wants it to not be on purpose.

like, if you're just accidentally alpha as fuck and dominant and do whatever you want, and a girl falls in love with you, that's "true love" because she loved you for you. The other side is if you intentionally act in a way that you know girls are attracted to, it is not true love.

the concept of true love is inherently stupid because it wants you to just statistically find someone who is so into you that no matter what you act like, they'll still be attracted to you. No. That's not how it works. Successful "true love" relationships are just immensely attractive people who aren't trying to be attractive.

Forgive us for acting like those people because we know it works. Being conscious of what you're doing, being conscious of your behavior, being conscious of the fact that you're actively making girls attracted to you, all of that isn't manipulative, it's just strategy. What this guy wants is for you to be attractive without strategy, and hey, that just isn't an option for most people. this is the male version of telling fat chicks to not lose weight because guys will love them for them.

tl;dr: if you know something is attractive, it doesn't make you a bad person if you do that thing. this guy wants you to do something without actively trying to be attractive, because if you're trying it's manipulation.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points 12 years ago (89 children) | Copy Link

[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (53 children) | Copy Link

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[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

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[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

Which renders the word abuse literally meaningless.

Or it renders average human behavior destructive.

normal human behaviour

What's "normal" human behavior? Perhaps you meant "average" human behavior.

Someone who is constantly being verbally abused and gaslighted will just be ignored if everyone accepts your definition because they'll put those people in the same category as people who claim abuse because someone manipulated them once. It desensitises people to real abuse.

You've fabricated a false dichotomy, where there are only those abused and those not abused. Your assertion couldn't be further from the truth. Abuse is a spectrum. Everyone is abused in some way and everyone is abusive. Some abuse is worse than other abuse. "Abuse is the improper usage or treatment of an entity, often to unfairly or improperly gain benefit." That covers a wide spectrum of behavior, from blackmail, to rape, to fraud, to manipulation. Many of these behaviors, even within our own legal system, are weighed and punished differently (or not at all).

Your contention seems to be that lesser emotional abuse belittles more aggressive or dangerous emotional abuse, but that just isn't so. Spanking children or repeatedly slapping your SO could be considered a form of physical abuse, but so is rape. Calling both those physical abuse does not demean or lessen the word, "physical abuse" nor the actual act of rape. That line of logic just doesn't make sense to me, because "abuse" is merely an umbrella term. "Crime" is also an umbrella term. Speeding is a crime. Murder is a crime. When you call speeding a crime, does that belittle the act of murder?

[–]hyperrrealLoves fun3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

"Crime" is also an umbrella term. Speeding is a crime. Murder is a crime. When you call speeding a crime, does that belittle the act of murder?

This analogy ends up working against you. Everybody speeds. It's a law designed to help the government raise money. Murder is, as far as I know, universally abhorred. They may both be crimes, but from an ethical perspective, they are not on the same spectrum.

I have spent considerable time in therapeutic environments, group therapy for example, where manipulation doesn't occur because of how the environment is set up. Living one's whole life that way isn't realistic. And I don't think it ever will be.

I also don't think that link you posted is saying all manipulation is abuse. It just says that abuse can involve manipulation. It's better to use the aggressing, denying, minimizing paradigm below which is more explanatory. But even that is such a grey area. If my partner wants to vent to me, but I'm tired and need space, I am abusing her by withdrawing emotionally? I don't think so. It becomes abuse when my denying behavior becomes extreme and ill-intentioned.

Healthy and loving behavior only works in a cooperative environment. My guess is most relationships where the man is drawn to the redpill are not cooperative. In some way they have become adversarial, and I suspect in many cases the man is the victim of emotional abuse. The power issues have to be addressed before there can be a return to a balance, love, and mutual respect. The redpill offers some good advice for the first stage of this, but falls short in terms of what to do afterwards.

[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

This analogy ends up working against you. Everybody speeds. It's a law designed to help the government raise money. Murder is, as far as I know, universally abhorred. They may both be crimes, but from an ethical perspective, they are not on the same spectrum.

Legally, they're both crimes. That's all that matters. They both fall under the umbrella term, "crime."

I have spent considerable time in therapeutic environments, group therapy for example, where manipulation doesn't occur because of how the environment is set up. Living one's whole life that way isn't realistic. And I don't think it ever will be.

Says who? This is a form of argumentum ad naturam. You have to prove that it's impossible for humans to change their behavior for this argument to be valid.

I also don't think that link you posted is saying all manipulation is abuse. It just says that abuse can involve manipulation. It's better to use the aggressing, denying, minimizing paradigm below which is more explanatory. But even that is such a grey area. If my partner wants to vent to me, but I'm tired and need space, I am abusing her by withdrawing emotionally? I don't think so. It becomes abuse when my denying behavior becomes extreme and ill-intentioned.

You're probably right. Systematic manipulation for personal gain is abuse. A single short encounter with manipulation is not abuse. However we're talking about TRP here. Making someone scared to leave the relationship, subtle threats, hinting at leaving if your SO/plate isn't attractive enough, nurturing one-way dependency...that's emotional abuse.

[–]hyperrrealLoves fun4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Legally, they're both crimes. That's all that matters. They both fall under the umbrella term, "crime."

Yes but I still don't see that doing much in terms of the comparison to abuse. Even the law recognizes the distinction. Speeding is misdemeanor which is punished with a small fine. Murder is a felony so severe that in some states you can still be executed for committing it. If I apply for a job, and they see a speeding ticket, they won't care. If they see a conviction for 2nd degree murder...

By the same token, if my neighbors/friends find out that sometimes I emotionally distance myself from my wife it's not a big deal. If they discover I gaslighted her into having an unwanted abortion...just because two things are within the same category doesn't mean they have the same level of significance, or are on the same relevant spectrum. Tigers and cats are both feline, but people are going to be a bit freaked out (or impressed) if I own a tiger.

Says who? This is a form of argumentum ad naturam. You have to prove that it's impossible for humans to change their behavior for this argument to be valid.

Wasn't really intending this to be an ironclad argument. It's just my opinion based on my experience.

Making someone scared to leave the relationship, subtle threats, hinting at leaving if your SO/plate isn't attractive enough, nurturing one-way dependency...that's emotional abuse.

I would agree these are abuse. But the first two are not redpill as far as I know. The third could be both, but I think TRP is more about directly stating your intention to leave because the attraction isn't there anymore. Nurturing dependence is abuse, haven't seen this advocated for on TRP either but I may have just missed it.

[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Wasn't really intending this to be an ironclad argument. It's just my opinion based on my experience.

You believe society doesn't have the capacity to change behavior?

I would agree these are abuse. But the first two are not redpill as far as I know. The third could be both, but I think TRP is more about directly stating your intention to leave because the attraction isn't there anymore.

This is from the post we're discussing:

One guy claims (and I'm paraphrasing), "She does my laundry and dishes, we have sex whenever I want, and she knows that I don't belong to her, and if she ever slips up or takes me for granted, she’s gone." It's not that I doubt what he's saying. I believe it. The problem is, what he's describing is emotional abuse. What the Red Pill advocates is taking advantage of common weak points in the typical female psyche (most of which are present in your typical male psyche as well; everyone has weak points, and most of them are common to all humans, though some are more pronounced in one sex or another) to put pressure on women and bend them to your will. Users advise doing things like keeping her guessing, changing what you want and then berating her for not keeping up with your whims. Several advise that you never show affection for her unless she’s done something to please you. You break them like you'd break an animal.

Nurturing dependence is abuse, haven't seen this advocated for on TRP either but I may have just missed it.

Dread game?

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/277q4k/fr_crushed_asd_with_dread_game/

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/23aymm/an_example_of_how_dread_game_works/

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1rfhls/game_in_1960s_coffee_commercial_husband_instills/

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1yf5kb/wife_punishes_husband_who_doesnt_want_to_have_a/

For the record, withholding sex is just as bad.

[–]hyperrreal2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You believe society doesn't have the capacity to change behavior?

I don't believe conscious attempts at social engineering work especially at scale. Behavior does change though. I just think it happens more organically. But the issue for me is that abusive behavior is not going to change because people fight the behavior itself. People need to make the choice to work on themselves as individuals, and work through their toxic shame. If this happens more often, I do think abusive behavior will become less and less frequent/severe.

Users advise doing things like keeping her guessing, changing what you want and then berating her for not keeping up with your whims. Several advise that you never show affection for her unless she’s done something to please you. You break them like you'd break an animal.

This guy doesn't appear have a great understanding of the theory. Which is fine but he's a bit off in his characterization.

Keeping someone guessing doesn't sound like abuse to me. Seems like just keeping the initial stages fresh and interesting. People like surprise/the unexpected. As for his definition, I don't TRP advocates changing what you want as much as going for what you want. And I know it's against berating women, that would be viewed as 'beta'. I have seen what he is referring to in terms of withholding affection. That could become abuse, especially in a LTR, but I don't think in casual dating it necessarily implies abuse.

As for the dread game examples, the first one is not abusive. He just doesn't give her a hug. They aren't dating, and he is under no obligation to show affection to her, anymore than she is obligated to have sex with him. The last one where the wife is withholding sex is a messed up relationship no doubt, but if anything the wife is abusive one from my reading. If she feels insecure after his response to her abuse, that is her own problem

The "example of how dread game works" seems abusive. And the girl seems crazy and likely abusive herself if those texts are real. Hard to say for certain without knowing more

[–]fiat_lux_Red Pillar1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Legally, they're both crimes. That's all that matters. They both fall under the umbrella term, "crime."

There are numerous legal/technical subclassifications of crime. They are relatively well-defined. Almost every adult in the US understands the differences between misdemeanors and felonies, nonviolent and violent, state and federal, etc.

"Manipulation" is not comparable in the least. It's very poorly defined, and you even needed to provide your own personal elaboration to the definition you linked earlier. There's no standard for agreement nor enforcement of an agreement.

hinting at leaving if your SO/plate isn't attractive enough

From my understanding of your personal definitions earlier, this isn't abuse so long as the person is honest about it. There's no deceit. He really will leave his SO if she falls short of an attraction threshold. Shitty perhaps, but not manipulative as he's just giving a subtle but honest ultimatum without deception.

[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)-2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Or it renders average human behavior destructive.

Whether you like it or not you aren't going to change human nature so regardless of the semantics, you are doing a disservice to victims of actual abuse by calling average human behaviour abusive.

What's "normal" human behavior? Perhaps you meant "average" human behavior.

Same thing.

Spanking children or repeatedly slapping your SO could be considered a form of physical abuse, but so is rape. Calling both those physical abuse does not demean or lessen the word, "physical abuse" nor the actual act of rape.

Well no, because both of those examples still involve hitting people, which means they are quite obviously physical abuse. On the other hand trying to argue that lying to someone is emotional abuse is far more abstract and makes far less sense quite frankly.

And your comparison is worthless because, in case you hadn't noticed, spanking children and slapping your SO are not considered acceptable behaviour. But lying to someone, while looked down upon, is hardly considered something that will have a major effect on someone, because lying on its own is hardly gonna traumatise you is it? There is a very good reason one is acceptable and the other isn't.

Claiming that any time you hurt someone's feelings or deceive them is abuse is absurd for this reason. The person on the receiving end of that might be a bit upset if they find out they're being lied to, but hey, they'll get over it pretty quickly because that's life. On the other hand if you are engaging in acts of actual emotional abuse or indeed physical abuse, that is going to cause more intense and possibly long term harm to the victim.

If you really believe normal/average/whatever behaviour is abusive I recommend you to talk to people who have been on the receiving end of actual abuse and go "yeah, I know what you mean, a salesman lied to me for profit the other day, I feel your pain." See how well that goes down.

[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Whether you like it or not you aren't going to change human nature so regardless of the semantics, you are doing a disservice to victims of actual abuse by calling average human behaviour abusive.

This is practically the same argument that pro-slavery people used in the 1800s. Even if it is human nature, that doesn't mean it has to happen. That doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to collectively improve our behavior.

Well no, because both of those examples still involve hitting people, which means they are quite obviously physical abuse. On the other hand trying to argue that lying to someone is emotional abuse is far more abstract and makes far less sense quite frankly.

We're not talking about lying, we're talking about manipulation. A lie can be a single event. Manipulation is systematic lying to achieve a goal that might be unethical or undesirable for the parties involved.

Claiming that any time you hurt someone's feelings or deceive them is abuse is absurd for this reason.

I'm not claiming this. Abuse is systematic. Deceiving someone once is not abuse.

If you really believe normal/average/whatever behaviour is abusive I recommend you to talk to people who have been on the receiving end of actual abuse and go "yeah, I know what you mean, a salesman lied to me for profit the other day, I feel your pain." See how well that goes down.

Repeated manipulation can absolutely cause psychological damage. We're not talking about a lying salesman, we're talking about manipulation in lasting interpersonal relationships.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

This is practically the same argument that pro-slavery people used in the 1800s. Even if it is human nature, that doesn't mean it has to happen.

So you're comparing, what, lying to people to slavery? Really?

Manipulation is systematic lying to achieve a goal that might be unethical or undesirable for the parties involved.

Right, so all adverts on TV are manipulation, the whole advertising industry is built on manipulation. Does this mean every time you watch TV you're being abused by Coca-Cola and Apple?

Abuse is systematic. Deceiving someone once is not abuse.

Lying to someone multiple times isn't abuse either.

manipulation in lasting interpersonal relationships.

You're being pretty vague here, what type of manipulation are you talking about here? Pushing the right buttons to make someone do what you want is manipulation, people do it all the time, constantly, doesn't mean you're being abused. I don't think it makes sense to call all manipulation and deception abuse. That's just too much of a blanket statement to be accurate.

[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

So you're comparing, what, lying to people to slavery? Really?

Come on, you're smarter than that. I'm not comparing lying with slavery, I'm drawing a parallel between the arguments for slavery and your argument for manipulation.

Right, so all adverts on TV are manipulation

Advertisements are not systematic. They only last 30 seconds. I'm talking about days, weeks, months of lying and deceit. That's my definition of manipulation.

Lying to someone multiple times isn't abuse either.

I agree.

You're being pretty vague here, what type of manipulation are you talking about here? Pushing the right buttons to make someone do what you want is manipulation, people do it all the time, constantly, doesn't mean you're being abused. I don't think it makes sense to call all manipulation and deception abuse. That's just too much of a blanket statement to be accurate.

Encouraging to do someone what's in their best interest is not manipulation. Manipulation is when you try to con someone into doing something against their best interest. I guess we're talking about systematic manipulation, so to qualify as abuse there has to be repetitive manipulative behavior over a certain time period with the same individuals.

[–][deleted]3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Advertisements are not systematic. They only last 30 seconds.

They're also aired multiple times over a period of months, sometimes years. I'd say advertising is very much systematic. Quite literally so.

Manipulation is when you try to con someone into doing something against their best interest.

I would say manipulation is when you convince someone to do what's in your best interests regardless of whether or not the outcome is good for them. Pushing your own agenda on the actions of others = manipulation. And that is something people do constantly.

Also it just depends on what definition you feel like using. There are multiple definitions. But even then, the worst most ominous definition just says to use deceit to further one's own purpose, it says nothing about it being against someone else's interests.

[–]CFRProflcopter0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

They're also aired multiple times over a period of months, sometimes years. I'd say advertising is very much systematic. Quite literally so.

It's also illegal to lie in an advertisement.

I would say manipulation is when you convince someone to do what's in your best interests regardless of whether or not the outcome is good for them. Pushing your own agenda on the actions of others = manipulation. And that is something people do constantly.

OK, let's not squabble over definitions. Let's just say that repetitively and covertly conning or manipulating someone to do something that's against their own best interest over a period of time qualifies as emotional abuse, especially when those behaviors are augmented with fear, threats, unpredictability, ect.

Not all RPers are going to advocate emotional abuse and not every part of TRP is emotional abuse. However a sizable enough portion of TRP IS emotional abuse, so the critique of those aspects is valid.

[–][deleted]3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's also illegal to lie in an advertisement.

Doesn't mean they aren't manipulating the information they present. I'm sure we've all seen ads for shampoo that go "94% of women found it better than their previous brand" then the tiny little small print at the bottom that says "out of 22 women surveyed."

Let's just say that repetitively and covertly conning or manipulating someone to do something that's against their own best interest over a period of time qualifies as emotional abuse, especially when those behaviors are augmented with fear, threats, unpredictability, ect.

Alright, I'd agree with that, if all these elements are in place. Note that I this is different from suggesting unpredictability on its own is abuse etc.

However a sizable enough portion of TRP IS emotional abuse

Have you got any evidence to back that up?

[–]CFRProflcopter2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Withholding sex is a dick move but it's not abuse. Same with cheating. Dick move, not abuse.

Then you've got a link to a post talking about a 1960's coffee advert. Right.

The rest of those are all just dread game stuff which I already agreed is iffy depending on how it's done. But most of the time you're just instilling insecurity which only harms the relationship and reduces your SO's reasons to stay with you, so you're only harming yourself at the end of the day, and those posts in particular don't seem abusive to me. Dick move? Yeah, absolutely, but abuse is a stretch. And if you can only pick on one single aspect of TRP you say is abusive (and even then it's only abusive if it's repeated) that's not a strong case for TRP as a whole being emotional abuse.

Heh, never thought I'd be defending TRP but here we go. For the record I'm hardly in support of it. I think a lot of it, dread game particularly, will just ruin your relationship. But I still don't see sufficient reason to call TRP abusive.

[–]CFRProflcopter1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I would call dread game a critical aspect of TRP.

I also think your definition of emotional abuse differs from those of clinical psychologists.

https://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/defining.shtml

Emotional Abuse (also called psychological abuse or aggression, verbal abuse or aggression, symbolic abuse or aggression, and nonphysical abuse or aggression). Psychological/emotional abuse has been variously characterized as "the use of verbal and nonverbal acts which symbolically hurt the other or the use of threats to hurt the other" (Straus, 1979, p. 77); "behaviors that can be used to terrorize the victim. . .that do not involve the use of physical force" (Shepard & Campbell, 1992, p. 291); the "direct infliction of mental harm" and "threats or limits to the victim's well-being" (Gondolf, 1987), and ". . . an ongoing process in which one individual systematically diminishes and destroys the inner self of another. The essential ideas, feelings, perceptions, and personality characteristics of the victim are constantly belittled." (Loring, 1994, p. 1).

If clinical psychologists think these types of behaviors qualify as emotional abuse, I won't disagree with them. They have more expertise than you or I, so I feel like I have to trust that this behavior is destructive.

[–][deleted]2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]CFRProflcopter0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I tried to find a definition of dread game, and this is the best one I could find:

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/dread/

unpredictability, mixed signals, danger, and drama...Managing your relationship in such a way that she is left with a constant, gnawing feeling of impending doom will do more for your cause than all the Valentine’s Day cards and expertly performed tongue love in the world. Like it or not, the threat of a looming breakup, whether the facts justify it or not, will spin her into a paranoid estrogen-fueled tizzy, and she’ll spend every waking second thinking about you, thinking about the relationship, thinking about how to fix it.

Instilling fear in another to force subservience is emotional abuse. I would challenge you to find a single human psychiatrist or psychologist on the planet earth that would disagree.

[–][deleted]2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]fiat_lux_Red Pillar9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

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[–]fiat_lux_Red Pillar6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

Technically, most managers wouldn't need to lie about this anyway, as most managers have direct influence on whether a subordinate's career is in danger or not. If a manager has to tell an employee that his career is in danger to get that employee to change, then that employee's career is in danger. It's not and doesn't have to be a lie.

Besides, no where in your link does it mention deceit as necessary for manipulation or emotional abuse. This is how it defines it:

Abuse is any behavior that is designed to control and subjugate another human being through the use of fear, humiliation, and verbal or physical assaults. Emotional abuse is any kind of abuse that is emotional rather than physical in nature. It can include anything from verbal abuse and constant criticism to more subtle tactics, such as intimidation, manipulation, and refusal to ever be pleased.

So it seems like we've gone from your linked definition to your own personal definition of abuse.

If a man truly believed that his SO was hopeless and constantly criticized her, would that not be "abusive" by the linked definition? The man is being completely honest and believes every word he said... so there's technically no intended deceit. In that case, I'm not convinced deception is a defining factor in abuse.

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[–]SirNemesis1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Wait, I pronounce glacier, glay-sheee-r, isn't that a long eeee sound?

Seems like it. You're pronouncing it incorrectly though, especially if you don't end it with an ur (like urn) sound (or an err sound if you're British).

And what about "fallacies," that's a long eeee sound.

Ooh, you got me there. Exception that I forgot to mention. Plurals don't count (if a word ends in -cy, its plural will tend to be -cies e.g. fallacies, policies, etc.).

Edit: I should also mention that there are a few exceptions to the rule (e.g. seize and caffeine), but the rule holds in like 99% of cases. That is, yes, not all words are like that (NAWALT), but for all practical purposes, AWALT.

Edit 2: Also, some people pronounce "leisure", "either", and "neither" with a long e sound. I prefer the other pronunciations because they follow standard spelling/pronunciation rules.

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No, i do not. I believe that society forgot to teach me how to be a man, so here i was virgin in my late twenties.. women telling me how nice i was and that i am a good person while having sex with other people. I don't know what's more abusive.

Not having sex with you is not abusive.

Now i changed thanks to trp. I focused on myself, i dress better, i do sports, i try to be considerate i read a lot and try to be as better as i can be. I had the bitter phase, it passed and i can say that i am feeling really good now. I don't know what you ppl are so angry about what i do with my life. Being nice on the expense of myself is not a virtue and leads to being manipulated.

Why do you need a misogynistic pseudoscience group to dress better and work out?

Being nice on the expense of myself is not a virtue and leads to being manipulated. Being nice when on the same position is the real virtue yet you ppl somehow tell me i am wrong and that i should be nice by default.

Yeah you sound really nice.

[–]smokingtransistor 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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Don't kid yourself ; changes do not happen when there are cognitive dissonances involved.what i did was do what society told me was good. I tried to do what everybody told is good to do, i was doing the right thing. Be nice be yourself even if i was fat someone would love me anyway. Ofc i blame myself cuz i did not listen to my guts and i listen to other people. My father should have been the trp for me. Part is my blame yet part is society's blame, it's easy to say that it was only my blame cuz it absolves you of any thinking, absolves you of the chance of being wrong. My father he read a lot of classics and he is a real gentleman yet he forgot to teach me how to stand up for myself. It is easy to perceive me as a loser cuz it makes your own dissonance sound good to you. Can you guess which one ? Cheers mate ignorance is bliss be blissed don't think too much, it makes you not happy.

[–]smokingtransistor 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]MagicGainbowKeepin' it real, havin' a feel2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]smokingtransistor 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Dichotomies everywhere: example was talking to some girls at the office and there is this new guy hired and they all talk about him. They tell me the'll go to him and check him out and maybe grab his ass to assert his viability (they hadn't seen him yet - but gossip). So i ask jokingly: can i do the same to all new hired girls, cuz i would like that. They said yes but only if i wanna spend time in jail afterwards.

If this is not hypocrisy by the definition then i don't know how to call it. Society and culture were influenced so much by feminism that double standards seem perfectly ok. Women are absolved of responsibility yet men have to pay the burden of their free new world. They want to have equal share in managerial position yet no woman wants to be a miner or truck driver because men do it and it's their job. When you try to critique the ways of this society you're shamed and called woman hater and sexist. Questioning feminism is not misogyny it's called rational thinking - you challenge everything. You could say hyper-gamy is not real, if this was true then friendzones would never exist.

Yet i really don't care, the probability of me getting married is around 10 % no more and i am happy that way, i don't see any advantages to marrying. Why should i do it ? i am happy right now and there are lots of women out there. i can keep cycling and keep my sexual needs sufficed. Marriage today is a one way contract that does not have any repercussions on women.

Once family was the base for a healthy society, family was worth fighting for and worth defending, and was worth building a safe and healthy environment for. Yet feminism teaches women that they are entitled to a nice good looking and wealthy man. And so they wait for the prince and after 30 they suddenly realize that the nice guys are the best. And when the nice guys suddenly stop being that nice they are outraged. Men that refuse to marry japan are now a big problem for the country.

If we fail to realize that women and men are different society will be finished. Economy will not thrive and every aspect of life will go to hell. We need strong un-obedient men that can build strong families. The solution, i think, is very simple we have to have schools for boys and schools for girls - this is the first thing to do the rest will slowly come by. Boys should be taught fighting and hands-on skills so they can become strong men, that would not obey and do the right thing, become strong leaders for a better world.

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I have a few questions regarding your background. I'm new to this whole trp thing, my story is similar to yours and was wondering if you might be able to answer a few questions to help me out.

You state that you changed your mentality the same time you started working out, dressing better, etc. Do you think you could have had dating success just by improving yourself and still being your initial/default personality?
What I worry about is that I'm replacing lies with different lies. Yeah I was lied to about what being a man is, but I was shit at recognizing it. Now I have a different view presented to me that makes sense, but, as my history has shown, I'm not the best at picking apart ideas. How do you determine if it's correct? Results? What if I can get the same results another, more mainstream, less "damaging" way (if you believe those people)?

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[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Are you okay with your SO suffering if you believe you're "winning" the relationship?

What is this "winning" bullshit? Its not a game. But

For the sake of argument, I'll consider the first half of the question. I did think about this as honestly and as sincerely as I could, and I think if my girlfriend was given the chance to change me, I don't think she would. In fact, she'd complain if I was ever less playful or exciting or seemed more held-back than I usually am.

What if she's not suffering?

If I know her, which I think I do, I truly do think my GF is happy. I think she loves me and is happier with me more than any other partner she's had. I've known her for two years and I think she's already more close to me than her own family.

If you alleged she's a weak or naive person to do so I think she would feel more insulted than I would. She has a career as a teacher and a decent social circle. She has I think more than one man who in all probability has feelings for her. She isn't a weak or mindless person... in fact, I think she's probably smarter than me in some areas(she's a better talker for one). And shes definitely more physically attractive. So its not like I'm preying on her.

But I own her. That's right. I can say it to her face and she giggles. She enjoys it. I can tell her what to do and she'll obey, in front of company. I can ask her to trust me on anything, and she'll go ahead with me and do it almost without hesitation, expecting me to deliver. She takes dread game(just fyi, no threats are involved with Dread, that's juvenile. dread = having options)... as flattery, because I choose her over any other girl who shows interest. It turns her on. What if after all that and more, there come random moments in the day, where she'll just cling and cuddle and tell me she's happy, even when I'm paying zero attention.

What if it works in reverse? Only the presentation is changed. What if I'm as devoted to her as she is to me?

Why must you struggle to see chains of oppression? Why are people not entitled to their choice? The only thing that'd change if for example, if you'd reveal everything to her, I think is... she'd temporarily feel more insecure about how I feel about her, because of perhaps initial misconceptions of what I believe. Which is a non-issue not even worth consideration. I'm already an asshole, not much else could change.

[–]cashmoney_x0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What is this "winning" bullshit?

Ask the OP. These are their words:

"Here's the thing: TRP didn't make the game. They just worked out the rules of the game women were playing, and set out to win. Whether you're a woman or a man, RP or BP, doesn't change that. Until RP concepts are just accepted as part of the cultural background for women as well as men, and women take conscious control of their own sexual strategy, the TRP, PUA inspired, Dark Triad emulating, manipulative power play will be the way to win."

Emphasis mine.

I agree that "winning" a relationship is a bullshit concept, hence my use of the quote marks every time I reference it.

What you have sounds like a consensual relationship with a submissive partner. I see no issue with that nor have ever claimed to. I am not struggling to see chains of oppression. I was addressing the OP's response to the EMSK post, in which using Dread game "the bad way" is the subject. If your girlfriend is onboard and into you joking about "owning" her or leaving her or whatever, power to you. But there are lots of women out there who would respond poorly to such talk, either through offense or through having a negative self image and buying into it in the wrong way, and it's bad advice to tell men that all women want it, like TRP has in the past. Getting a positive, jovial response to dom/sub roleplay is awesome. Using the same language to subdue an emotional fragile partner is different, and is what the EMSK post was about, in my opinion.

What if I'm as devoted to her as she is to me?

That's awesome. Again though, not what the EMSK post is addressing. He spefically mentions the flavor of TRP that tells you to spin plates and keep one foot out the proverbial door. My response wasn't directed at you and it sounds like it doesn't apply to your situation.

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[–]CallMeMrBadGuy13 points14 points15 points 12 years ago* (33 children) | Copy Link

That was the most platitude ladden post Ive ever seen. Summed up as "Just be excellent to each other." I took some umbrage at the fact he tries to say improving your sexual strategy is somehow morally wrong...? Basically dude is playing captain-save-a-chick for the current sexual strategy which is majorly advantageous to women. There is no regard, outside of some hollow platitudes (Be excellent to each other cuz your soulmate is out there!) that answer the question for the blue pilled men. He really wants those guys that want change to continue playing the current suckers game. He should make the opposite of this post on what everywomanshouldknow bring some equilibrium to the world by telling them guys dont like to be led on or otherwise manipulated either! Though, even in this current deplorable state in society shit.....I would certainly call a woman a sucker for not taking full use of her advantages. So fat chance on that.

[–]ianturpiesmoustache9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

[–]CallMeMrBadGuy5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

He didn't try to say that, he said that following TRP will not improve your sexual strategy, it will teach you to manipulate and undervalue women.

I disagree. The crux of the entire post is dont use TRP because it's not good...ie "What I am speaking out against is the use of sexual strategy and emotional manipulation to render your partner compliant." He has moral dilemma because he thinks manipulation is wrong. However, based on his writing he only felt this is wrong when the imbalance is skewed toward the male's favor. He seems to be okay with the current trends of female manipulation and overvaluing women.

You don't seem to enjoy the "sexual strategy" some women engage in, so why would you subject someone you're meant to be in love with to the same bullshit? It's not a relationship if everyone is trying to "win".

Again, I may not enjoy it but it would be purely naive and idealistic to think that just because a solitary person realizes and removes themselves this will stop the ongoing force that is everybody else. One of the most regurgitated platitudes about relationships is that "relationship is a compromise" well then that signifies that actually relationships are inherently adversarial and that two must work to find common ground. Realistically, I think it's rare where people ever 100% compromise but more so that it functions not much differently then any other relationships or bonds in life with any other person whether it be you mother, your best friend, or your boss. Manipulation/compromise is a part of everyone and all.

[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]CallMeMrBadGuy8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

I read it which is why I said the crux of the entire post is chastising men. It's why my first post says he's speaking in useless platitudes "Be Excellent To Each Other" but his writing actually exemplifies that this concern is truly only for when it's Men gaining an advantage. Which is why I say it's downright silly for him to chastise men trying to advance their sexual strategy and results and him to dedicate a throwaway platitude that doesnt mesh with the actual reality as it is. I mean there is a reason many people turn to the TRP strategy. He's not helping anyone other than the claimed so-called "abused women" (I didnt get onto the OP himself here but he's pretty much lived a non-RP or alpha lifestyle rather just did shallow reconnosaince and somehow later purports to have a deep understanding...so on top of that I found his post extra absurd).

[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

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[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

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[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

He specifically said that women who abuse men are shitty.

The Red Pill subreddit is also full of "Blue Pill Stories," in which guys get emotionally abused by their girlfriends. They lament being used for their money, their homes, their emotional support, what have you, and then being left when they weren't "Alpha" enough to keep their girlfriends around. It's a shame, it really is. Nobody deserves that kind of abuse.

"Nobody" includes women, though. What the Red Pill strategy does is flip that power dynamic on its head. When it works, now it's the man who is in power and the woman who is suffering. The man gets the sex without having to commit any real effort to the relationship, aside from making sure that his SO's emotions are brutally crushed on a regular basis. You haven't fixed anything, you've only made sure it's your SO who's suffering and not you. And the reason she stays is the same reason Blue Pill guys stay in their relationships: They don't want to be alone.

In order to have a healthy relationship, you have to be a healthy human being first. A healthy human being doesn't use sexual strategy. You'll only ever have a healthy relationship if both parties refuse to play that game.

emphasis added

[–]CallMeMrBadGuy2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Im not sure if I wrote to you above already as Im losing track and am too lazy to reread this thread, but Im sure I did, since I remember you replied about the between the lines and the context of the post, that about my mentioning of his impetus for his protect the women post is because he doesnt want men adopting anything a strategy that isnt inline with the status quo. I think I may have already emphasized elsewhere that his entire post is disingenuous as it doesnt attempt to answer anything within the constrians of how wider society (in America at least) functions is at the moment. And it certainly doesnt answer the question for the men going thru the bluepill phases and resenting except with it's useless idealism. My opinion will stand as so until he makes the post in the inverse, which I'll not hold my breath over because his aim from the entire context of the thread and his answers his only inline again with "our fair maidens".

[–]CFRProflcopter1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]CallMeMrBadGuy1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

He doesn't have to solve world hunger. He's just saying "don't buy into an ideology that advocates emotional abuse, and don't stay in relationships that involve any kind of emotional abuse."

Yes, but my exact point is that doesnt help anybody! I dont mean to complicate it but I personally can not stand a couple of things and meaningless, advanceless platitudes and truisms is one thing. I think it avoids actual addressing the why people end up never solving their problems. It's saying dont get that bucket of water, but instead think happy thoughts and what could be, while the house actually burns. That and he's conflating TRP with with so-called 'emotional abuse (not really defined by him though) when one can see it's not so cut-and-dry if RPWomen has their say and basically last I checked RP hold no monopoloy on anything of the sort.

[–]CFRProflcopter1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]CallMeMrBadGuy2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]CFRProflcopter2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

My issue is that he didn't even explain or define what he considers emotionally abusive. i don't think he's helped anyone well.

Ask and you shall receive

One guy claims (and I'm paraphrasing), "She does my laundry and dishes, we have sex whenever I want, and she knows that I don't belong to her, and if she ever slips up or takes me for granted, she’s gone."

The problem is, what he's describing is emotional abuse. What the Red Pill advocates is taking advantage of common weak points in the typical female psyche (most of which are present in your typical male psyche as well; everyone has weak points, and most of them are common to all humans, though some are more pronounced in one sex or another) to put pressure on women and bend them to your will. Users advise doing things like keeping her guessing, changing what you want and then berating her for not keeping up with your whims. Several advise that you never show affection for her unless she’s done something to please you. You break them like you'd break an animal.

Is that not specific enough?

As for RP women, I then suppose we shouldn't believe anything on this site where we are all anonymous and really nothing here can be confirmed. That mindset would actually add for more call ree d skepticism on the original post tho

You cannot conflate ideas and people. They're not interchangeable. Ideas are anonymous and can be talked about anonymously. Ideas don't need people behind them to hold weight.

[–]CallMeMrBadGuy1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]ianturpiesmoustache3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

However, based on his writing he only felt this is wrong when the imbalance is skewed toward the male's favor. He seems to be okay with the current trends of female manipulation and overvaluing women.

1) The post is about TRP specifically, not women.

2) He states that he does not condone women doing this either.

Again, I may not enjoy it but it would be purely naive and idealistic to think that just because a solitary person realizes and removes themselves this will stop the ongoing force that is everybody else.

So there's no need to attempt to change it? We should just accept that people are going to manipulate each other to their own advantage in relationships? I don't think that's what people should be working towards.

One of the most regurgitated platitudes about relationships is that "relationship is a compromise" well then that signifies that actually relationships are inherently adversarial and that two must work to find common ground.

So? Find me two people who agree about absolutely everything. They just don't exist - by their very nature relationships are compromises. That doesn't mean the people involved in them should be trying to get one over on their partner.

[–]CallMeMrBadGuy7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

1) The post is about TRP specifically, not women. 2) He states that he does not condone women doing this either.

So then again, he only has issues when it comes to men gaining an advantage. The stat quo is fine. He wrote an entire lengthy post that is toward men and only made another throwaway idealistic line of neutrality that is so common from those with idealistic views or wish not to be challenged on it in my view. Id sum it up as "well I think both sides are wrong but instead of writing a neutral post from both perspectives Ill go out of my way to protect the women". Secondly, he had no business writing the post since he's never undertaken a RP lifestyle I think.

So there's no need to attempt to change it? We should just accept that people are going to manipulate each other to their own advantage in relationships? I don't think that's what people should be working towards.

I feel this is purely talking ideally. It's world is an unfair place not utopia foremost. Now you want everyone in the world to consciously change inherent dynamics and instinct thru sheer will. Not happening I applaud outliers but that's not realistic for the rest of us.

So? Find me two people who agree about absolutely everything. They just don't exist

Exactly. So as I said relationships (regardless if they are romantic or platonic) are adversarial. People will either find a compromise on one aspect or someone will will draw the short straw. That's it.

That doesn't mean the people involved in them should be trying to get one over on their partner.

I can say a lot of thing I dont think people should be doing in this imagined perfect world...but so what? Though, in reality that's just hoping for the best.

[–]ianturpiesmoustache0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So then again, he only has issues when it comes to men gaining an advantage.

No. He has an issue with TRP's idea of how to "gain an advantage", and feels like it's counterproductive to men in general.

Id sum it up as "well I think both sides are wrong but instead of writing a neutral post from both perspectives Ill go out of my way to protect the women".

But again, he also said manipulative behaviour is not acceptable from women. He's not protecting them from blame, he's arguing against people playing stupid games with their partners altogether.

It's world is an unfair place not utopia foremost. Now you want everyone in the world to consciously change inherent dynamics and instinct thru sheer will.

It's not instinct, otherwise TRP wouldn't have to teach it to people. "Strategy" is not ingrained in people. And the world doesn't have to be a utopia for TRP ideas to be untrue, it just has to be slightly less dismissive of women.

So as I said relationships (regardless if they are romantic or platonic) are adversarial. People will either find a compromise on one aspect or someone will will draw the short straw.

So someone has to draw the short straw because life's unfair? That doesn't sound like a good way to view a relationship. Compromise is clearly a much better option for a healthy partnership, as far as I'm concerned.

I can say a lot of thing I dont think people should be doing in this imagined perfect world...but so what?

So maybe try considering that just because the world's not perfect doesn't mean it can't be better. It's not all or nothing - it's compromise.

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The actual is that he can say X all day and add as many edits as he feels is necessary but the intention and implication still stand far above it as all and is telling. Additionally you the whole thread it is contentious because of that intention and implication. Also, if he's not intentionally doing that then he is just at the core wrong. Also, I dont think where I state my opinion and critique of his poor persuasive writing attempt that is eaten up and lauded by those of weak constitution and his neglect to deliberate actual men in TRP or indict the actual practices of female power in sexual market as hamstering. You're right though, as I surely do not think he speaks in good faith though, if it was he is more naive than anything. He's far from ever engaging in an RP lifestyle and is trying to write on the RP. So he's a charlatan at that. Though, bland wishful-thinking and rehashed plats helps the small sleep at night so good on him for comforting those folk.

[–]matronverde-2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ianturpiesmoustache1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sorry. PEOPLE generally don't give up their power. See: everything in history.

Ah, so nothing's ever changed and everything's the same as it was hundreds of years ago? Sorry, I must've missed that.

He gets it! Kinda. It's not fun being the one without the power. Now both sides have power. Things are better. Think cold war. Both sides have nukes? Less likely they both use them. And a bit of peace. Not the ideal, but a step in that direction.

Nobody having nukes is a better option. And my point was that it's a bad idea to have a relationship play out as a power struggle. It's a shame a lot of people have an all-or-nothing attitude about this.

You may be having a bit of trouble reading and comprehending different concepts tonight. Maybe back up and try again.

You're so right, I must not be comprehending TRP descriptions of an ideal relationship. Could you please explain how giving up all power to your "captain" is a positive change for women? How that makes an "even playing field" for relationships?

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[–]MagicGainbowKeepin' it real, havin' a feel0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Personally, my relationships have improved a lot. And the wonderful girl I'm dating now has expressed to me many times that she is so glad that I don't put her on a pedestal and that I call her on her bullshit, and praises my masculinity and ownership of my views and self-worth. And this is a successful, intelligent, beautiful girl who has guys fawning over her all the time. She doesn't feel attacked, used, or belittled.

This, if it wasn't for trp my current relationship would not have gotten to where it is now, my gf has a tendency to get irrational and assume things just because they occur to her.

Recently she actually said to my ''i'm so glad you call my out when i'm acting crazy and don't put up with my bullshit'', we treat each other great, I love having over for a movie and making her dinner at no point would I say I have manipulated her in any fashion.

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haha, nah, you specifically have the attention span of a tea-spoon. If this were a genuine question, you would ask for details instead, as all three concepts are done already in great detail, in every flavour of tone you can ask for, by a variety of authors. And not just red pill authors in red pill spaces, but by qualified professionals and respected speakers, in scientific journals, gender debates, and legal arguments.

We consider them all valid opinion worth thinking about alongwith the opposing viewpoint, in working out the best course of action for a man in any given market. Meanwhile you consider anything dissenting as invalid and inherently insane(i.e. the word "evil", an obviously loaded question).

Take for example, I live in Hong Kong. Denying the reality of hyper-gamy here is like... denying gravity.

You take that level of head in the sand arguments here, and women would laugh at you.

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You're oversimplifying it a bit though. Alot of it had merit to be honest but he was speaking too ideally.

Too much "just care about each other" and "you can do it together". Nothing wrong with this but it's also not a good alternative for a man, especially not today.

And the idea that this shit kills you inside really ticks me the wrong way. Is there something damaging about having a sexual strategy that slowly kills you inside?

And they always want to make it seem like every woman is susceptible to emotional abuse and that you always have to 'break them' which is the only way they can find love.

Human beings are as diverse as life on this planet. For every type, there is a countertype. There is someone out there for just about everyone. However, none of your relationships will work out in a healthy manner until you realize that women are people too, not animals to be broken. You don't need to be an Alpha. You're not a damned dog. You're a human being. Human beings can communicate complex concepts, rebel against their base instincts to find better ways of doing things, and above all, reflect on their actions and empathize. You don't need to establish dominance, you just need to find somebody that's willing to actively pursue your happiness alongside their own; and you need to be willing to do the same for them. If you're not ready to do that, you're not ready to have a healthy relationship.

This one really cheeses me.

I have a lot of questions.

What does treat women as people mean? How do you NOT treat women as people?

What is so wrong with wanting to be dominant? To be alpha?

[–]smurfcorp 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]silver1ining0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Let's set aside the obvious "no true nice people" reply, because I was talking about Nice Guys (tm) explicitly. My point was: Nice Guys (tm) are following your advice. Do you disagree?

Regarding manipulation: If you and I are both following "treat others as you would wish to be treated", and you treat me a certain way, then I know that you are telling me something about how you wish to be treated. From this point of view, Nice Guys (tm) aren't trying to be manipulative, they are trying to communicate. It's a failure in the empathy of others that this isn't realized.

That Nice Guys (tm) don't get the hint to stop when their behaviors aren't reciprocated is a failure in them, but that they are reviled so much I see as a failing in those doing the reviling. Basically, have empathy, you might say.

[–]smurfcorp 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Nice Guys (tm) only befriend a girl and do nice things for her because they want to hook up with her. They think that if they give her company, let her cry on their shoulder, do kind favors for her, that eventually she will reward them with sex.

Now, I don't think Nice Guys want to be used either. Flip the situation around a bit, let's say that people make friends with a guy, not because they genuinely like him, but because he has a sweet beach house and they hope that if they're nice enough to him that he'll invite them over there for the summer. If it weren't for the beach house those "friends" wouldn't have made the effort. Now if this guy doesn't invite them over afterall, they might get angry because they feel entitled after being "such a great friend" to him.

I doubt any Nice Guy, or anyone else for that matter, wants to be used like that. They want people to genuinely like them, and not only have friends with ulterior motives. So no, they are not treating someone as they would want to be treated, IMO.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Treat them as you would wish to be treated?

So not treating someone as you wish to be treated means you aren't treating them as a person?

to acknowledge that they have feelings, thoughts, and ideas that are JUST as legitimate as your own.

Of course I do this. Everyone I know does this. Where do you find people people who think women don't have their own legit thoughts and feelings?

Basically, to have empathy. To not treat them like a child. To respect them.

I have empathy for almost everyone, women included and you probably mean Common courtesy instead of respect and yes I show everyone common decency.

I don't go around telling any female I see that she is inferior. And treating them like children is a sexual strategy and like every other strategy it's not full proof, not absolute and its not the only option. If you wish to treat her like a child and two have a relationship, what's the problem? I don't walk up to random women and pat them on the head while making baby noises.

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Title	The EMSK "Red Pill Will Kill You Inside" post
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	9
Comments	193
Date	June 30, 2014 11:47 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/29inmt/the_emsk_red_pill_will_kill_you_inside_post/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-emsk-red-pill-will-kill-you-inside-post.285401 https://theredarchive.com/post/285401

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