Thought I was a feminist, but am I actually RPW?

rpwtoss · 2017-09-25T15:15:15+00:00

I think everyone deserves all of the things you mentioned...but I've never considered myself a feminist.

I'm similar to you, in terms of education level- I also have a masters' degree. My work is tangentially related to my degree (I couldn't do the work without the degree, but I'm not using the degree the way it was intended to be used).

I also used to be very religious. The older I've gotten, the less religious I've become- although I still consider myself a spiritual person.

I think that men and women are different- that doesn't make one group better than the other, but I dislike the idea that we should all be treated the same- because we aren't the same.

I think we are losing something in our society as we stop teaching boys that women should be respected and protected and start teaching them that everyone is exactly the same. Because at the end of the day, women ARE physically weaker. It's silly to pretend that isn't true.

It's not that I can't take care of myself- I can. I don't work in a mechanical field, but I'm an avid DIYer- we've completely remodeled our house- and I've done most of it. I've built things (fences, a chicken coop, among other things), I've pulled up floors, I tiled our entire house. But if I'm being completely honest, my husband would have been able to do all of those things more easily and faster than I did (except tiling the floors), because he's stronger than I am. There are things he can just manhandle that I have to problem solve around.

And you know what? I like that. One of my favorite things is when guys to offer to help when I'm doing something that requires strength (like loading heavy things into my car at a store). Can I do it myself? Absolutely. But when a man takes care of it, I get to feel good because someone stopped to help- and they get to feel good because they stopped to help and got an enthusiastic thanks for it (their strength and kindness was noticed). That's a win-win. Why would we want to remove that from society?

There ARE parts of TRP that I don't love- mainly the general "woman-hating" vibe that tends to filter through- although I suspect that a lot of that is the sub on Reddit and not necessarily the ideas behind TRP.

But I don't think there is anything wrong with acknowledging that men and women are different. We view things differently. We bring different things to the table. That's what makes life fun.

I think that society has to change with women working and being independent from a financial perspective. But I think that instead of destroying traditional gender roles, it could be an impetus for them to become even stronger. It just means that men have to be better and stronger men. And women have to give them a reason to want to be that way.

When women were dependent upon men, men didn't have to be "good" at their responsibilities- women had no choice- they needed a man, no matter what. Now that women aren't reliant upon men, it just gives men an even better chance to prove that they are 100% still needed. For companionship. For their perspective. To slay dragons and provide shelter and comfort from the outside world.

The thing is- as women we have a bigger responsibility too. We've got to give men a reason to want to step up to the plate. It's no fun to care for someone who throws everything in your face. We've got to be better women, too. That means sucking it up and putting in the effort to look nice, be nice, be fun to be around, take care of stuff around the house. If we expect men to be our protectors and defenders, we've got to give them something to be proud to protect and defend. It's got to be fun- it's got to be something that they are getting fulfillment out of. We've got to make sure that our houses are a place that they want to be, and that we are people who they enjoy being around.

I think this last paragraph is where feminism is currently failing.

Banincoming · 2017-09-25T17:12:52+00:00

Feminism did successfully kill the patriarchy, although not in the way it intended. Women entering the workforce crashed wages. This had 2 effects: Most men could no longer support a family on their wages, and most women HAD to work instead of getting a choice. So died the patriarchy. Although most women being forced to be in the stressful rat race instead of having a family has also crashed their happiness most studies have found.

ragnarockette · 2017-09-25T14:14:07+00:00

I consider myself a feminist because I support many of the same causes you do. I think here - as MissNietzsche pointed out - there is a definitely sense of "well obviously we support all those things because we're not terrible people!" However, there are most definitely people (on the internet and in real life) who do not, so I call myself a feminist because I want it to be crystal clear where I stand on those things.

Most of the ladies here have some issues with third wave feminism, because third wave was where the whole idea of "gender as a social construct" came in. Third wave feminism basically scoffs at the idea that there are unique, biological strengths associated with being male or female. Obviously, RPW is all about us using/recognizing those strengths to have stronger, more harmonious relationships.

Does being RPW really mean you have to be totally opposed to feminism?

Absolutely not. I think the only issues you brought up that would be a subject of debate here are:

A woman's "right to sleep with whomever she wants without being judged." I think most of us here acknowledge that we live in a society where she will be judged, and so we advise women to be judicious about who they choose to have sex with.
A woman's right to wear what she wants. Again, we live in a society where she will be judged, and so we advise women to dress in a way that reflects how they want to be perceived.

Can a RPW have some traditionally masculine traits?

Of course. I love sports. I watch them with my husband. Being a mechanic is awesome. You should be yourself. We just realize that these traits don't make us more attractive to men. They are a net neutral, so there is no reason to pretend to love sports if you don't.

How do you feel about the way men speak to/approach women in some contexts?

There are a great many jerks in the world. And a lot of dangerous, wounded people who would do harm to others. Obviously you can't help being catcalled, but I think most of us would argue that today's culture (specifically drinking and promiscuity) more frequently puts women in positions of extreme vulnerability. As for men not taking women seriously at work, this is a huge annoyance for me as well, so if you figure it out, let me know! It is not universal though - again, there are many jerks in the world.

Do RPW all have a super feminine style?

Femininity is about being gracious, charming, cheerful, and lovely to be around. All the sundresses and heels in the world can't make a mean, hateful woman feminine. Dresses and nice makeup are great, but I think you can cultivate a feminine frame of mind without them.

Just my two cents as someone who resisted initially, like you. In the end, there are some parts of RPW that go too far for me (especially on other, more extreme subs), so I just ignore those and listen to the rest. There is a lot of great stuff here that has greatly helped me be a better wife, daughter, friend, and human! And I still attended the women's march and have a career.

Mazcok · 2017-09-25T13:36:07+00:00

Why belong to some group called "Feminist"?

Just be yourself and support causes you believe in.

I've found that being some part of an organization such as "feminists" or even a church, people naturally want to move up within the organization. They desire a position of leadership, but in order to do so, they must toe the line. They have to subscribe and promote the beliefs of said organization.

You can support feminism, without becoming the chapter president of NOW.

I'm sure you're a beautiful woman. Be yourself, not someone that you think will be most appealing to other people, whether is men or feminists. :)

loneliness-inc · 2017-09-25T14:42:46+00:00

Rights come with responsibilities. That's the reality of the world. If a person or group of people are awarded rights while being absolved of responsibility, someone else will have to take responsibility. That someone else will eventually resent it and shirk responsibility.

Women have been given all the rights their grandmothers have ever dreamt of and then some. Women today have an abundance of rights but they aren't held responsible to the same degree.

TRP was invented when men realized that the balance of rights and responsibility keeps shifting, granting more and more rights to women and more and more responsibility to men. This is inherently unfair and unsustainable. You may not have liked the old system where women had few rights, but that system was balanced because both men and women had responsibilities to match the level of rights that they enjoyed. This is why this system was able to last so long. The current system will unravel itself because it's imbalanced.

TRP is about men waking up to this reality and understanding what's going on. What they do with this knowledge differs from man to man. There are those who will enjoy the decline while it lasts, pumping and dumping as many women as they can, there are those who will use this knowledge to better protect and sustain their marriages and there are those who just walk away entirely - MGTOW.

A woman who's knowledgeable in RP theory has the biggest advantage of them all. Family law, divorce settlements, child custody, help and sympathy from strangers and much more are all on the side of women. As a woman, you have the upper hand in any relationship. RPW is about understanding the dynamics and utilizing this understanding for the betterment of your marriage instead of driving men further away.

How do you feel about the way men speak to/approach women in some contexts? I’m struggle with men cat calling or not taking a “no” graciously, but apparently this is very TRP? I also dislike any situation where a man assumes I have a lack of knowledge/capability because I am female, happens a lot in my job role.

You can't control what others do, you can only control your reaction. Knowing that you can't control others and that certain people will treat you poorly, will give you the inner strength to not let things like this bother you. They cat called? Whatever. Big deal. If there's nothing you can do to stop it, just let it fly.

adeptusminor · 2017-09-25T15:12:20+00:00

Thanks OP, I have also been following this sub and wondering some of the same things. I agree with almost everything said here. The question I have is this...(I admit that I may lack understanding of these subcultures, I apologize)...Is RPW associated with RPMen? Or are they opposing groups? Because most of what I have read on their sub amounts to using women for sex, never showing them respect, lying to them and sleeping with as many woman as possible all the time and never getting married. So, I guess they are using the same term (Red Pill) but are actually different subcultures with different values? Many thanks to anyone who can explain this to me and I hope I haven't offended anyone here, I do enjoy your community.

SouthernAthena · 2017-09-26T05:22:26+00:00

I'll let you in on a secret. I sometimes wear pants.

All kidding aside, RPW, according to the sidebar, is "anti-feminist, non-feminist, traditional..."

Nonetheless, you are welcome here. If you stick around, you will find many feminists here. RPW (and TRP) are not dogmas. Think of it as a tool kit. We (any RP forum) operate under a set of basic understandings, but how you apply them and where you take them is entirely up to you.

Some of the basic truths of RP:

-Men and women are different. Gender roles are natural and necessary.

-We all have a certain value based on our physical attractiveness (SMV) and our romantic attractiveness (RMV).

-We are responsible for our actions.

• Does being RPW really mean you have to be totally opposed to feminism?

No, it doesn't. There are many feminists here. I do completely oppose feminism, but I don't think everyone here agrees with me.

• Can a RPW have some traditionally masculine traits? (I work in mechanics atm and I love sports)

Of course. We encourage feminine behaviors such as empathy, nurturing, sociability, and submissiveness, but we also understand that we're humans and we all have a mixture of masculine and feminine traits.

• How do you feel about

Let me stop you right there. You answered your own question. We all have different opinions about all those things. RP doesn't care about your feelings or anyone else's feelings. RP theory is about a realistic and pragmatic understanding of the relationship between the sexes. It's often said that RP is amoral, as in it is neither moral nor immoral. We all bring our own values to the table; the "Red Pill" is just stark reality. Feel how you want about those issues. RP will tell you that what matters is that those things happen and how do you deal with it?

• Do RPW all have a super feminine style?

Definitely not. We encourage caring for your appearance because beauty is important, but there is no one style that anyone espouses here.

Hope this helps! Glad you found your way here. Put in a good word for us with the other feminists! ;)

RoseCatK · 2017-09-25T14:01:13+00:00

I'm a feminist. I work part time at home in order to raise my children. It's not problematic at all. People embellish schools of thought for their own motives all the time--that's all you've experienced.

etf42 · 2017-09-25T20:28:28+00:00

A few points:

Feminism can mean different things to different people. A few years ago, Gallup or a similar level of pollster found that more than 80 percent of women support equal rights between the sexes in the United States, but fewer than 20 percent identify as feminists in the same survey. As a brand, feminism is obviously completely tarnished.
The "wave" of feminism you support is largely the disconnect in point #1 above. Third-wave feminism started going off the rails a bit, but fourth-wave/"intersectional" feminism is where things have clearly gone to the point of no return, in no small part because it's focused on equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. Feminism and thinking that men and women should be equal are no longer synonymous to most people.
RPW is not as narrowly defined as what you seem to think with some of your questions like how they dress, etc. However, I definitely understand why you have that viewpoint. Anything RP-related doesn't have the best public relations. What you'll find is that RPW mostly combines realism with accountability for your actions, two things that are sorely lacking in modern feminism and in modern society in general.

Aside from all of that, welcome to RPW. You sound like you'll fit in just fine around here.

honeyfern · 2017-09-25T20:47:56+00:00

So you're a second wave feminist ideally (you know, the old school, ones that actually made good, equal changes) if you still wanted to call yourself one.

Very far off in difference from the new Third-Wave of them.

EmbracingThePill · 2017-09-25T13:31:47+00:00

[deleted]

[deleted] · 2017-09-26T04:31:41+00:00

How many people have shamed you for being a bad feminist, exactly? I ask because usually when someone complains about feminists, they've come across a handful of people and are using that to condemn the whole movement (which never happens with other movements. That's another story, but just remember feminism is made up of humans and humans are flawed regardless of how they identify).

If they in fact shamed you, then that's disappointing but also not reflective of feminism as a whole and you shouldn't use a couple of encounters to turn away completely (also, your views are verbatim that of a feminist so I think you'll find it quite hard to separate yourself from feminism unless you change your values).

Alternatively, they could have been trying to point out to you that just because you chose to marry/stay home/whatever, that doesn't make it feminist because you're either a) still prescribing to patriarchal notions about what women should be and/or b) you have made the choice without fully questioning why you made the choice. Does that make sense?

I'm not doubting your feelings about what happened, but I can see the other POV.

RubyWooToo · 2017-09-26T18:40:41+00:00

As I've said before, my problem with modern feminism is that it's no longer about equality of opportunity but equality of outcome, and no longer about women's freedom to choose but women's freedom from facing the consequences of those choices if they happen to be bad.

chitty-chat-cat · 2017-09-27T02:09:19+00:00

I'm fairly new to RPW thread but you sound like you have a great head on your shoulders. Bravo!

[deleted] · 2017-09-27T18:26:35+00:00

Does being RPW really mean you have to be totally opposed to feminism?

Being a feminist fundamentally means that you believe in the equality of the sexes. If you believe that all men and women are created equal, you are a feminist. Feminism is not a political party with specific leaders and a platform; so you can be a feminist without agreeing with everything other feminists say. It is just a belief in the equality of the sexes. So I think RPW and feminism can coincide- they do with me :)

Can a RPW have some traditionally masculine traits?

I think so. I think it is important to know that some men will be turned off by your job/interests, but others won't. RPW is about embracing reality. The reality is that by you having a better grasp of mechanical issues than some men, they will feel threatened. But find a stronger man more secure in his masculinity.

How do you feel about the way men speak to/approach women in some contexts? I'm struggling with men catcalling or not taking a “no” graciously

I tell men catcalling me to fuck off and think that it is RPW to do so. Those men are low-value beta men who don't deserve my time. Hopefully, my rejection will steer them in the right direction, and they'll improve themselves and their game. Also, this meme about catcalling is great.

TRPmc117 · 2017-09-29T00:32:23+00:00

I'm a redpill male and I can tell you that the majority of the community would 100% agree with your 5 main bullet points about women's rights. TRP is not about establishing dominance or inequality. It's about recognizing the biological and psychological differences between men and women and using them to our respective advantages.

Keep in mind that it's a methodology. There's no set of rules that you must follow to consider yourself a redpill woman. It's simply a methodology with some baseline truths that are generally accepted by the community.

bounce-bounce-drop · 2017-09-25T21:49:12+00:00

It's a hard thing. Society is very sexist. Expectations on women often are more culturally normative than actually based on sexual preferences. For example, shaving. In many countries, women don't shave and that's cool and dandy with the men. Same with women being significantly heaver than is currently the ideal. Same with women refusing to perform sex acts that hurt them (anal can be painful, expecting that from a partner is insane).

Anyway, my point is I see a lot of value in taking a step back and asking whether a gendered norm is a norm because it's good and right or because it's just so culturally engrained that people have basically been brainwashed to expect it.

I hope to one day continue to work from home and be able to raise my own children, rather than climb the career ladder

I have explicitly told people this is partially why I got into programming. In a very liberal area, I have yet to get pushback. This sounds very upsetting.

I am happy at the level I’ve reached and prefer to enjoy my out-of-office time to do the things I enjoy and improve myself rather than push myself like crazy in the office and have it take over my life. Apparently, this is a problem if I want to be a ‘feminist’.

Sounds like you took that step back I was suggesting above for feminism when it comes to capitalism and realized the cultural norm capitalism creates of never being satisfied is bullshit. I love it.

I want to get married. I want to have a family. Apparently, this means I’m not a feminist either.

Once again, super liberal area, feel the same, and yet to get pushback. :/ Who are you hanging out with?

God forbid I ever tell anyone that I think a woman should always try to ‘serve’ her man to show her love – not as a slave or by allowing herself to be treated badly – but by doing what she can to make his day/life easier. Wearing something I know he likes. Having his favorite food in.

Eh, I think believing only you should be serving is unhealthy. I think BOTH partners should be thoughtful in their own way based on their own preferences (if you prefer cooking then using that as part of your thoughtfulness is desirable).

Even if having been single for a year now means I've been celibate for that long too. This seems to also be a very unpopular standpoint with most ‘modern’ women, never mind the fact that my count is in single digits. I’ve been told that makes me a loser.

Seriously who are these people talking to you? I don't sleep with people outside of relationships; again, no one has given me shit.

I love to make sure my hair is done, nails are painted and wearing some light make-up every day. Fragrance is imperative. I never leave the house looking ‘scruffy’ and even my PJs, underwear and loungewear must be quality and coordinated at all times.

And this is likely why my experience has been so different. I don't look particularly feminine 99% of the time. Perhaps that has allowed my more traditional views to be more palatable because people are more confident I came to them from a place of analysis rather than simple acceptance of the status quo.

Anyway, I also struggle to know my overlap with RP but this post made me curious so I answered anyway with my own sort of reaction, hope you don't mind!

etf42 · 2017-09-26T22:00:14+00:00

• A female’s right to the same educational and career opportunities as men (should she want them, of course)

Equality of outcome versus equality of opportunity. This has already been touched on here by other posters.

• A female’s right to reproductive and general healthcare options

In the US women have full reproductive rights/authority while men are still held responsible. A man has no legal say in whether to abort or keep a baby, but he is legally required to financially support the baby regardless of his decision. There is an imbalance in responsibility and authority here that is hard to ignore.

"• A female’s right to wear what she pleases"

Sure, anyone can do what they wish, but they have to deal with the long and short term consequences of this and you can't force people to respect you

"• A female’s right to date/sleep with whoever she pleases without being shamed or judged (if she wants to)"

You don't have control over people judging or shaming you. Its easy for women to get sex, and people don't have respect for things that are easy to do. People respect things that are hard to do.

"• The basic rights of women in 3rd world countries (i.e. the right to vote, to be able to drive, not be forced into marriage, not be owned by husband, to go to school etc)"

"Rights" in 3rd world countries don't exist for a reason like they do in the west. Feminism does not happen in 3rd world countries for a reason. Feminism arises and exists when there were absences of threats and when resources are plentiful. It is no coincidence that feminism thrives in economically rich countries and that each phase of feminism in the US happened between the Civil War, the World Wars, and after the Cold War. Women started wanting jobs the during the first wave of feminism when jobs became less physical, dangerous and labor intensive after the industrial revolution. This trend has continued into the technological revolution, where many jobs require practically no physical exertion whatsoever. Women did not want to do back breaking labor during the agricultural age. You will generally never hear women support equality during times of war, famine, or economic depression. Women didn't even want to vote at certain points in the history of the US when if it meant they had to go to war. Women in third world countries will not get the benefits of those rights if there are not plentiful resources to back them up, they do not care about the things we care about in 1st world nations. Some women would have no one to take care of them and would die without arranged marriages. In third world countries men have authority AND responsibility. Sure terrible things happen to women at the hands of men, but throughout history this has been the exception not the norm.

This happens in nature as well. Just look at two of our closest ancestors, the bonobos and the chimpanzee. Chimpanzees are a tournament mating species, they face several threats and scarce resources in their environment, from gorillas and other chimpanzees, so the strongest males are sexually selected by and have power over the females so their offspring have the best chance or survival, essentially a patriarchal society. The bonobos face no threats in their environment and have abundant resources where they dwell in the Congo, and they are less sexually dimorphic than chimpanzees. Females are less dependent on men for resources and for the survival of their offspring so men are more disposable and are often attacked by females. Humans have faced both environments. In times of warfare and scare resources, the patriarchy tends to be present because men are needed to protect and provide. In times of peace, affluence, and plentiful resources, feminism and gynocentrism tend to flourish and men become weak and useless.

ElfFey · 2017-09-27T09:27:06+00:00

I'm reminded of something a friend of mine use to say regarding religion: "You can be Buddhist and Christian around Buddhists but not Christians."

In other words the day will come and it will be the feminists who want you to choose.

Whisper · 2017-10-04T09:44:56+00:00

A female’s right to date/sleep with whoever she pleases without being shamed or judged (if she wants to)

This is childish.

You cannot have this without violating the right that others have to judge what they see, and speak their minds.

Spoiled children whine about being judged. Adults own the consequences of their choices.

popthatpill · 2017-10-11T06:00:23+00:00

A female’s right to date/sleep with whoever she pleases without being shamed or judged (if she wants to)

Nope. You don't get to decide what I think or say about you.

If you're free to do what you like, then I'm free to say and think whatever I like about it.

Title	Thought I was a feminist, but am I actually RPW?
Author	girlandglove
Upvotes	32
Comments	90
Date	September 25, 2017 12:38 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillWomen
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/72c55i/thought_i_was_a_feminist_but_am_i_actually_rpw/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/thought-i-was-a-feminist-but-am-i-actually-rpw.73480 https://theredarchive.com/post/73480

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