What's your opinion on feminism and it's value to men?

fengpi · 2020-11-09T09:41:20+00:00

I was wondering what everyone here thinks of feminism.

I think it's a fundamentally dishonest movement, and it's paradigm of analysis is not only broken, but useless for men.

For women, it's largely a bunch of self-serving rhetoric, slimy special pleading, feel-good pandering and convenient "having it both ways" argumentation. I can absolutely understand its popularity among women who possess the minds of adolescents and who want to have their cake and eat it too. For women who wish to live as real adults and be taken seriously, the ideology looks downright embarrassing.

Although I do expect feminists to be allies and advocates for equality for men too.

You'll be forever disappointed, in that case. Being a self-serving hypocrite is a requirement for being a feminist in good standing.

Toxic masculinity means that some part of the gender role is not good for men or for society

Ahh, I love this starting point. Ahem, okay...

...once you strip masculinity of its toxic components, can you name one remaining trait which is not a gender-neutral characteristic? I have yet to receive a good answer to this question.

EmirikolWoker · 2020-11-09T09:30:02+00:00

The foundational principals of all flavours of feminism are inherrently anti-male when you examine what needs to be true for them to accurately describe reality. Feminists can claim that it's "just about equality", but it's equality based on bigotted assumptions, presuming psychopathy on the part of men as a class.

Egalitarian values, and mens rights advocacy in particular, is innately antifeminist.

d_nijmegen · 2020-11-09T09:49:03+00:00

We Have a lot of feminists come here. It's always a unsatisfactory situation.

We welcome, we engage, they don't like being told their views are wrong. They eventually delete the post and nothing changes...

So I'm not playing anymore. Feminists with power, hurt men. Feminists without power support them hurting us, by defending them.

spamtheant · 2020-11-09T10:20:23+00:00

First assuming your question is genuine. Well done asking those who oppose your point of view what they think is good practice as long as genuinely listen to the response.

Feminism is a broad movement without a single ideology so a response must be similarily broad. Feminism is a movement that emerges from a human cognitive bias which disproportionately perceives womens disadvantages and disporportionately sees men as perpetrators and women as victims. There is an innate tendancy within humanity to seek to protect and support women and to regard men as less valuable and dispossible compared to women. Historically life for the overwhelming majority of humanity was a hard struggle for subsistence and this cognitive bias was both valuable in ensuring the best chance of long term survival but also constrained by everyday necessities. Feminism emerged as technological and economic development freed humanity from the burden of pure subsistence allowing the cognitive bias to emerge. This has led to the current situation where women are substantially advantaged in every area of life but the perception is the opposite. Obvious examples are life expectancy of women being higher than men with more resources devoted to womens health, education with girls and women doing better than men and boys but substantial resources devoted to helping girls do better than boys, or the legal system where laws, guidelines and practice favour women but there is continued campaigning to further advantage women.

On your breakdown into 'movement' and 'academia' campaigning for women's rights is an issue because all rights must be balanced against responsibilities and the rights of others. Women are already substantially advantaged so campaigning for women's rights alone in practice means campaigning to remove men's rights.

On the academic side feminism is a large part of a culture of anti-science anti-evidence within the social sciences that places theory and ideology above evidence. Even worse it is a significant part of a culture which seeks to supress and prevent the presentation of alternative viewpoints and evidence.

In a wider context feminsim is part of political culture which seeks to sub-dviide society formenting polarisation and antagonism between groups rather than promoting common concenrs and cooperation. It is profoundly damaging to women by encouraging a victimhood ideology and to men by demonising and disadvantaging them.

Having said all of that there is nothing wrong with promoting womens rights as part of a balance. The issue is that in the west that balance is very rarely present.

fengpi · 2020-11-09T09:58:26+00:00

obviously men can act however they want

Is this so obvious? I can name a bunch of men who were punished or even killed for their beliefs throughout history.

mikesteane · 2020-11-09T10:33:51+00:00

Feminism – ”A doctrine built on the pre-supposition of victimhood of women by men as a foundation of female identity. In its goals is always the utilization of the state to forcibly redress this claimed victimization. In other words, the proxy use of violence and wealth appropriation. In whatever flavor, and variation, these two basic features are common to every doctrine using the label feminism. Feminism is therefore, a doctrine of class hatred, and violence.” (John The Other, “Why not date a feminist?” A Voice For Men, 4 June 2012.)

iainmf · 2020-11-09T09:45:02+00:00

The feminist movement is defined by its actions. The vast majority of which are against treating men equally. If theoretically the feminist movement should support men, but in practice, it doesn't, then you need a new theory.

Feminist academia is corrupt. Getting a section of Mien Kampf reworded with feminist terms into a major journal is not surprising considering the genuine nonsense coming out of the academy. For example, despite hundreds of studies saying that domestic violence perpetration is roughly equal for each gender, feminist scholars flat out refuse to engage and work to block and undermine researchers who promote good research in this area.

The Dunedin longitudinal study is the gold standard of longitudinal studies. It has been following the same 1000 people since they were born in the 70s. They found women were slightly more likely to be violent in relationships when they asked both partners about perpetration and victimisation. To be clear, women admitted being violent in relationships at about the same rate as men. The authors of that study received a significant backlash and the research was largely ignored by feminist academia.

Now, feminist academia on the other hand is a lot more useful. Concepts* like privilege, toxic masculinity, gender, or intersectionality are powerful tools. Using them means not having to invent them ourselves.

None of these are scientific. Privilege, for example, is a concept invented by rich, racist, white, woman Peggy Macintosh. Toxic Masculinity is based on the idea of hegemonic masculinity, which just assumes negative stereotypes about men are true and I haven't seen any proof of. Intersectionality is about overlapping axes of oppression where gender is socially constructed to oppress women. Men can't be oppressed under intersectionality.

Even so, none of them are useful to men. We need to invent things that work for men.

2020-11-09T11:27:34+00:00

Feminism is not about equality of the sexes.
Some idiots in the beginning thought "all problems are because of men". Sadly the weak-minded and poor parented people have accepted this garbage.
99.99% of them throw their self worth and look sinto the garbage. They get fat, get horrible hair cuts, horrible tattoos and piercings, dress poorly, and think yelling makes them right.
*Fact: No one needs a label to want equality for both sexes as good as we can be.
Have the fat neckbeard white knights shown up yet to 'defend' their honor with their waifu pillows? 😆

DebateAI · 2020-11-09T11:58:06+00:00

Whole movement is based on the stupid idea that men hate women, or that they are actively supressing them for some reason.

They don't support equality, they want female supremacy.

OkLetterhead10 · 2020-11-10T06:29:06+00:00

Feminism is inherently anti male, when you designate men as oppressors you are therefore denying sexism against men.

You say "privilege means advantage, everyone has various privileges thanks to their race, gender, class, etc" but feminists disagree with you. feminists say only men have advantage. feminists seny the existence of female privilege. that's feminism is anti men's rights.

OkLetterhead10 · 2020-11-10T06:31:12+00:00

Although I do expect feminists to be allies and advocates for equality for men too.

Haha, feminists are not allies. In 2015, the University of York announced its intention to observe International Men’s Day. A torrent of criticism ensued, including an open letter to the university claiming that such a day “does not combat inequality, but merely amplifies existing, structurally imposed, inequalities”. The university cancelled the plans and affirmed that “the main focus of gender equality work should continue to be on the inequalities faced by women”. In contrast, its observation of International Women’s day a few months earlier was a week long affair with more than 100 events.

Feminists always shut down initiatives that help men.

2020-11-09T11:24:16+00:00

Feminism was always a hate movement from the beginning

Long-Chair-7825 · 2020-11-09T19:13:29+00:00

historically feminism has had some troubles with non-female issues. For example, there are feminists who are racist, sexist, or transphobic.

You may not be aware how much misandry they have had through history

In addition, spaces intended to assist in male issues tend to face opposition, often from feminists.(sources are in the comments)

dzkrf · 2020-11-09T12:53:17+00:00

You lost me at intersectionality.

Feminist organisations do not close down when equality is achieved. They invent new ways of being offended in order to remain relevant and to continue getting donations and funding. Thus the term feminism has come to mean just nasty things against men. They keep the pot stirred.

CoolDEpot · 2020-11-09T13:03:20+00:00

Feminism is the billionarie bussiness of sucking the blood out of men

GltyUntlPrvnInncnt · 2020-11-09T17:07:38+00:00

Those men's lib (male) feminists are good feminist lapdogs. They do talk about male issues, but through a feminist lens. Which means that if women have problems, the society and men are to blame. If men have a problem, men are to blame. Toxic masculinity gets talked about a lot, toxic femininity doesn't exist. They just call it internalized misogyny. Men have privileges, women don't. Women are oppressed, men are not. Feminism at its core is very much anti-male. Any man supporting feminism is digging a grave for himself. Feminism is a plague, and we need to find a cure for it.

DelightfulFronds · 2020-11-09T23:19:19+00:00

The other interesting thing about feminism, to unpack your implication that it's just a few misandrists misusing the term, is that silence is violence. Or so I have been told.

Go somewhere. Declare that feminists are just a bunch of man haters. Note the outcry and denials. "That's not what feminism is about". Without fail feminists stand up to defend feminism against such claims. When actual misandrists speak however, including journalists and other thought leaders, saying #killallmen and #menaretrash there is an eery silence. They do not speak out. What does this tell you? I can only take this as tacit approval of misandry on an institutional scale.

Misandry in feminism is endemic. It's accepted. Nobody speaks out. Feminist psychopaths like Valerie Solanas and Donna Hyland are hailed as heroes. It would be like the MRA's openly celebrating Elilot Roger's manifesto and pretending that there is nothing wrong with that. It's sick.

The key problem with feminism is that it has no intellectual integrity as no counterbalance exists. Despite claims of 'women have no power' feminist theory exists entirely unopposed. As a result it circumvents debate and the marketplace of ideas and is instead handed down like gospel. It simply can't survive debate and as a result has absolutely no worth to anyone.

I mean when women bully women it's "Internalised Misogyny". Come on.

obligatoryclevername · 2020-11-10T23:50:31+00:00

Feminism is a hate movement.

If I were an disembodied soul, waiting to be born in the west today, I would choose to be a woman 100 out of 100 times.

I envy how you can sit back and be showered with romantic advances, never having to risk rejection. I have to be rejected so often that I can't allow myself to feel anything for fear of coming apart.

I envy all the rights you have that I don't.

I envy your ability to enslave men in family courts.

I envy your obscene political power.

I envy how your are celebrated for existing while I am shamed and denigrated constantly.

I envy that any one of you can have any man expelled from any University with a word and without proof.

I envy that you life is considered precious while I am disposable.

I envy that your life matters while mine doesn't.

I envy that you cannot be drafted; kidnapped by the government to have your guys blown out in some hell-hole.

I envy how virtually no dangerous, dirty or uncomfortable jobs are done by you.

I envy that you have full reproductive choice, while I have none (if you don't want a child and I do, too bad aborted. If I don't want a child but you do, to bad, I am enslaved and forced to give you my money.)

I envy that you have the option to retire at 25 while a man works 60 hour weeks to give you money.

I envy that you can live your entire life on the dole, once you have a child.

I envy that you get child custody 85% of the time.

I envy that you are not the target of constant suspicion.

I envy that you can work with children without being suspected of abusing them, even though mothers are the primary abusers of their children.

I envy that you receive 40% lighter prison sentences for the same crimes.

I envy that, despite being the most privileged population in all of human history, you are seen as victims and your rights constantly improve, at my expense.

I envy that #killallmen and a 1000 other example of true hate speech are considered virtuous. Any of my speech, questioning the fairness of the current arrangement is censored and labeled as hate.

I envy that people you feel nothing but contempt for are expected to die to save you in any emergency.

I envy that any imagined problem you have is given the utmost attention while 80% of suicides, 90% of the homeless, 98% of workplace deaths, 100% combat deaths, a majority of deaths of despair are men and are completely ignored.

I envy that research money is disproportionately given to woman's health issues.

I envy how you are strong and independent when that is to your advantage but helpless children when that is to your advantage.

I envy that you are admitted to grad schools and hired preferentially.

I envy that the public education system is set up for your success while boys have to be drugged to fit into your system.

I envy that you haven't had to hear that you are an evil and stupid piece of shit every day since childhood.

I envy that in any domestic abuse situation, even if you are the abuser and I have done nothing, I will be arrested and presumed guilty.

I envy that you work 35% fewer hours, on average, get 7% of patents and fall behind on countless other measures of contribution to our society, and yet, you are celebrated for any contribution you do make. Our contribution isn't appreciated and we are, in fact, we are hated for it. My miserable life of overwork is, somehow, considered an oppression of you.

I envy how you have zero legal obligations in a marriage. Can do anything you want to me. You can attack me in my sleep. You can cheat on me and get pregnant with another man's child. I will have to give you money for years for betraying me or I will be thrown in jail. I will be enslaved to pay for another man's child.

I envy that someone else can be held responsible for your choices. If we are both drunk and we have consensual sex, we haven't raped each other, you have been raped. If you regret having consensual sex with me, that is, somehow, rape.

I wish I was you so badly.

irrelevantmoniker · 2020-11-09T11:09:49+00:00

How could a movement to address equality be valuable to men if the movement has such a distorted perspective on reality that it cannot perceive either equality or inequality in said reality?

tenchineuro · 2020-11-10T02:19:30+00:00

Likewise, there are many feminists who are not interested in men's issues

Like, the entire feminist movement? The feminist movement literally blames all men's supposed issues on other men.

Let's be more honest, the entire feminist movement is actively opposed to men and actively opposed to there being any platform from which to raise men's issues. That's why they did their best to destroy Cassie Jaye for doing a documentary on the men's right's movement.

Ihavenopurposeinlif3 · 2020-11-10T03:49:19+00:00

I find it dishonest, and many people there use it as a means of venting about men, which causes many people advocating for gender rights, believe all men should die, and with the power feminism has over society, this can cause mass psychogenic hate

chaotic_neutral_dog · 2020-11-09T10:36:26+00:00

I believe feminism should really be called the "women's rights movement". It does nothing to help men, unless they are gay or trans.

Suck-Less · 2020-11-09T10:34:18+00:00

I think feminism is about equality “as women perceive it and only as women perceive it.” Feminism is an organization dependent on forcing me to be the boogie men to keep the money flowing. The hatred and egotism that feminism is dependent on is a cancer.

I’m egalitarian, libertarian.

DelightfulFronds · 2020-11-09T23:00:03+00:00

The interesting thing about intersectionality is why is it assumed that gender is the primary axis? Why not race? Why not class?

A poor black man is priveleged over a rich white woman according to feminist theory, which is absolute nonsense to anyone with half a brain. Was Emmet Till displaying his hegemonic patriarchal masculinity when he was tortured to death? Was it justified, as women dont lie about that sort of thing?

Journey95U · 2020-12-09T13:52:19+00:00

feminists are scum

mhandanna · 2020-12-19T05:39:29+00:00

All you questions and answers are here:

https://becauseits2015.wordpress.com/2016/08/06/a-non-feminist-faq/

academic, sourced and not overly partisan....its a non feminist perspective on gender issues rather than a anti feminist one. You will find it very interesting.

In terms of articles I would suggest on that blog trickle down gender equality, and side stepping violence against men

Long_Cut_7015 · 2021-01-19T00:39:01+00:00

Terms like "toxic masculinity" are inherently sexists and victim blaming. when women face a social pressure to act and behave a certain way we call it misogyny not toxic femininity.

The term is very harmful for the self esteem and emotional health of boys and men, if you care about men's issues, stop using terms that men find offensive.

mewacketergi2 · 2021-01-19T05:24:10+00:00

...and an advocate for men's liberation.

Is men's liberation a kind of a campfire gathering in Starbucks where well-off middle-class urban professionals get together to denigrate traditional masculinity, which none of them ever possessed, as the source of all society's ills, and offer feminism as the solution?

I would be persuaded in the potential utility of this "liberation" if its adherents had any concrete gains whatsoever to show. Unfortunately, there seem to be none. Most recent progress was achieved by neutral- or MRA-aligned men's groups, like NCFM. Most misandric feminists that I know of are either popular, powerful, or well-respected, or all three simultaneously. Most pro-men feminists are obscure, powerless, or fringe, or are dissidents that have not changed a single thing or affected mainstream feminist noticeably.

Feminism is a religion that arose as a toxic by-product of societal progress towards egalitarianism and equal rights. Unfortunately, it tends to think of itself as the source of this progress, and stops at nothing to perpetuate itself. It is a state-sanctioned religion in the West. It held back a lot of progress, as there is no separation of church and state, and no barrier protecting science from the pollution by the religion's clerics.

There undoubtedly will be a price we all will have to pay for this madness later.

P.S.

Toxic masculinity means that some part of the gender role is not good for men or for society, eg the idea that men are violent - what a dumb thing to generalize about the whole gender.

Are you familiar with the terms normativism and positivitsm?

It's a very funny thing. Most words in the dictionary are defined according to how they are actually used in the wild, regardless of what people who coined them want, but this so-called toxic masculinity is immune from this for some reason. Most peculiar.

Silver_The_Bard · 2020-11-09T11:23:44+00:00

Feminism has two main parts, the movement which advocates from women's rights, and the academic side which covers gender theory and even intersectionality. How do you feel about either side?

The main part that advocates for women's rights is a fundamental process that western society has needed for a modern life.

Representation is an ongoing neverending process that every gender/race/ideology must stand up and fight for if they want to be recognized and respected.

The problem we have is the individuals who have taken the feminism issue too far and decided to take it past equality and turn it into a power grab, usually trying to justify their actions by blaming the modern male for the sins of their forefathers.

My opinion on the academic side is disappointing. Individuals are taking advantage of educational institutions to recruit for a cause instead of educating indiscriminately. It's like asking a creationists to teach history and them leaving out all the information we have learned though other religions and science.

privilege means advantage, everyone has various privileges thanks to their race, gender, class, etc, endless attributes. Everyone has privilege, everyone lacks some privileges that some other people have.

By your very definition, arguing or discussing the concept of privilege is pointless because of how broad and undefined it is. This is why we avoid bringing it into conversations, it's a useless concept that individuals try to use in an attept to classify some kind of disadvantage they have so they can play the victim. All the while completely disregarding their own advantages.

Toxic masculinity means that some part of the gender role is not good for men or for society, eg the idea that men are violent - what a dumb thing to generalize about the whole gender.

Again, we have examples of toxic everything. Toxic feminism, toxic transgenderism, toxic evangelicalism... Slapping the word toxic onto anything is a useless statement. When the real problem stems from toxic behaviors, something that EVERY human shares.

Gender refers to the way society expects people to act based on their sex, obviously men can act however they want so the entire concept is flawed.

While the concept may be flawed, it's merely a system of classification. Trying to argue it is like trying to argue the advantages/disadvantages of the imperial vs the metric system. Use the one that works best for you but don't expect everyone to use the same one as you. Science doesn't care, it just needs a way to organize the information efficiently. And since nobody has come up with a more effective system, gender will have to do.

qemist · 2020-11-09T09:31:33+00:00

Apparently not good for spelling. It's "its".

madtayham · 2020-11-09T12:42:33+00:00

I am completely with you. But that said, I am also a feminist who believes in the men’s liberation movement. You described everything so eloquently, I can’t fault it at all. Unfortunately men’s rights and men’s liberation draw different subreddit crowds. I think you’ll find these guys are much more jaded and generally angry at what they perceive as an anti-men hate movement. They’re fed up and feel betrayed and out of control. As a result the rhetoric seems more concerned with criticising feminism and showing solidarity for men who they perceive as being persecuted by feminist ideology. All discussion of men’s wellbeing seems to be only in the context of debunking feminist theory.

Interesting what you said about your feminist cohort. I personally haven’t met an angry man hating feminist yet but I know they exist and I think it’s hugely destructive. All the feminists I know personally believe that men’s liberation is a non-negotiable to achieving gender equality. I don’t think MRA even believe this kind of feminist exists.

Title	What's your opinion on feminism and it's value to men?
Author	fgyoysgaxt
Upvotes	4
Comments	272
Date	November 9, 2020 7:44 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/jqthbf/whats_your_opinion_on_feminism_and_its_value_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/whats-your-opinion-on-feminism-and-its-value-to.841110 https://theredarchive.com/post/841110

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