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“Queen bees” hinder women in the workplace | Up to 58% of workplace bullies are women and they target other women 90% of the time. Feminists: why don't you tackle the biggest cause of the problem before whining about men?

EricAllonde

April 27, 2018
924 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://economia.icaew.com/en/opinion/april-2018/queen-bees-hinder-women-in-the-workplace
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Title “Queen bees” hinder women in the workplace | Up to 58% of workplace bullies are women and they target other women 90% of the time. Feminists: why don't you tackle the biggest cause of the problem before whining about men?
Author

EricAllonde

Upvotes 924
Comments 105
Date April 27, 2018 11:13 AM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8fauab/queen_bees_hinder_women_in_the_workplace_up_to_58/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/queen-bees-hinder-women-in-the-workplace-up-to-58.902162
https://theredarchive.com/post/902162
Red Pill terms in post
feminist
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Comments

[–]seeking101 83 points84 points85 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I used to work in a call center with mostly women. It was just me and one other guy with maybe 12 other women. The amount of gossip was unreal. Person A would talk shit about person B to person C and then go talk shit about Person C to Person D meanwhile Person B is talkimg shit about Person C to Person D and so on and so forth.

to be fair it was only 2 or 3 women that did the majority of gossip but it was enough to poison the whole center. Dealing with the BS drama is one of the main reasons I will never work in an office ever again

[–][deleted] 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]seeking101 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I do utility work now

[–]Honztastic 64 points65 points66 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

There was a link on science a few weeks ago that was pushing that "queen bees" in the workplace are a myth.

Of female managers, the study seemed to show they helped along and treated women lower level employees well.

Can't speak to the methodology, but a queen bee isn't the manager.

They're the mid and lower level employees that don't want anyone to advance beyond them. I felt like I was taking crazy pills. Did no one in that study actually know what a queen bee was? I got downvoted like crazy for expressing that.

[–]iongantas 17 points18 points19 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Eh, it can be the "manager". It's dependent on the organizational structure itself.

[–]RedForman- 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Study was done by a queen bee.

[–]Vwar 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Never, ever trust feminist "studies" without looking at the source material. They have been caught grossly misrepresenting data over and over again, and sometimes they just plain make shit up.

[–]Honztastic 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's why I pointed out that it wasn't looking at queen bees correctly.

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points25 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

"you could never have oceans 11 with women because 3 of them would keep breaking off to talk shit about the other 9" -John Mullaney

[–]BenTheFlash 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

is the bad maths part of the joke? Haven't seen Oceans 11, just assuming 11 is the member amount.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I believe it's 11 dudes plus Danny Ocean for a total of 12 , i.e. Ocean and his 11 accomplices...but I could be wrong, it's been a while since I've seen the movie.

[–][deleted] 117 points118 points119 points 8 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

Women were/are/will be women's biggest enemy. Nothing can change that.

[–]seraph85 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, feminists will acknowledge this but they blame the "patriarchy" for creating these "Queen bees"

[+]Fuckoff555 -17 points-16 points-15 points 8 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

I don't know about that man, the majority of women are always helping each other and are sticking with each other whenever they can, even sometimes when they are wrong. While some men ( whiteknights and ''male feminists'') are always helping women and shitting on their gender. I really hope that men stick with each other like women do but it seems like it's almost impossible.

[–]Doing_It_In_The_Butt 59 points60 points61 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Annectodal: In my experience women flock together in scenarios where there is a larger hierarchy (large team meetings, lecture theatres, girls on a night out). But as soon as they have a chance to speak to one another they first validate each other in order to demonstrate they are part of the same group, then through this validation a social status hierarchy is established and a queen bee emerges. These groups tend to agree on everything by consensus and tend not to fight amongst themselves publicly. Later the group splits off into small cliques and then a all bitch war begins where different women are covertly attacking or protecting the queen bee in a effort to establish themselves in the hierarchy. I see this with when my wife and female friends gather in large numbers.

[–]Vwar 22 points23 points24 points 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

There are some interesting paradoxes at play.

Take a small-to-medium sized group of men and set them to some task and you'll find a degree of cooperation second to none. They will naturally organize themselves into hierarchies of ability* without the need to create leaders/rulers, and an honor system will develop. If disputes arise they will be solved quickly, sometimes (though not usually) with physical violence, after which the competing parties will make up.

Take a group of women and set them to some task and you will find a long, drawn out attempt to establish consensus about the most trivial of matters, combined with a great deal of passive-aggressiveness, malicious gossiping and repeated cycles of emotional turmoil. Conflicts often take the form of Machiavellian social violence.

But what happens when you put the two sexes together?

In the case of men, competition dramatically increases. In the case of women, solidarity dramatically increases. So the exact opposite effects for either sex. If one woman is harmed it is viewed as an attack on "all women", whereas if one man is harmed it is viewed as an attack only on that individual man.

Whereas men band together to protect women (sometimes at the expense of female autonomy), women band together in solidarity against men, evidently for safety and protection. This would seem to be a protective evolutionary mechanism that, with the feminist movement, has now become profoundly dangerous.

*Hierarchies of ability are different than institutional hierarchies. The former are meritocratic and do not require coercion; different people are better at different things, so it makes sense for people to have different specialities. Institutional hierarchies are usually based on violence and coercion, though may also include meritocratic elements.

[–]Doing_It_In_The_Butt 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

yes it has become profoundly dangerous. For example in the UK women calling themselves feminist is at a all time low, but if you try to dispel some feminist myths like the wage gap watch a gaggle of women and white knights form together and call you a deluded sexist pig because.. feelings. the solidarity is strong.

[–]Lethn 17 points18 points19 points 8 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure feminists will immediately screech this is 'anti-women' but I'm afraid he's right. To be fair though, it's not just women but generally horrible people will break off into their own groups and are incredibly nasty towards any outsiders or people that happen to fall in with them. If you're somebody who has been targeted by these sorts of groups in your lifetime, you'll see what I'm talking immediately.

If you see people who don't hang out with others or interact with other people there's usually a reason for it. Some people just want their own space which is totally fine, but particularly with larger societies it can end up with people self-segregating to the point that they don't even realise what the rest of the world thinks of them and have little knowledge of the outside world.

Feminists and left wingers are particularly guilty of this and it doesn't help that they all tend to live in rich, majority white neighbourhoods and this is how they get the opinions that they have.

[–]Doing_It_In_The_Butt 14 points15 points16 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

my anecdotal evidence provided earlier is not anti woman, hell most women know this behaviour really well, and any man that has spent a evening on a girls night in will know about the horrendous gossiping that happens. Also not all women as if that needs to be said

Yes people do self segregate and form cliques, this is human nature. Rich liberal elite in their current form are some of the most annoying people on the planet right now. From the US to the EU the liberal elite make the most racist and bigoted assumptions about people but still think they are morally correct.

[–]Lethn 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh I know it's not anti-woman but feminists will of course try to claim that as they always do.

[–]NecroHexr 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I second this.

My class is 90% women, sure they would flock and rara, but when I'm with one or two of them the bitching comes out.

Makes it hard for me to trust some of them because idk if they really want my company or if they're just gonna say shit behind my back.

[–]tmone 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

exactly. its like this. siblings. the only who can talk shit about my brother/sister is me. same with military branches, and every other group.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It is impossible. It is the white knights who allow women to bully other women. It is a no win situation because if they help either woman, the other one will call him sexist. So the man gets fired, becomes red pulled and the women keep bullying each other

[–]agree-with-you 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree, this does not seem possible.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Women help other women when perpetrator is a man not otherwise.

[–]Fuckoff555 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

The majority of women help other women when the perpetrator is a man, that's for sure. But they also stand by the female side in matters, where they wouldn't be held responsible for their choices or actions or when they have the advantage, like for example being against financial abortion, abolishing alimony or sharing 50/50 custody of the children after divorce. Even when the perpetrator is a woman, they either stand by her because they don't want to alter the image of how women are always innocent and harmless, or they have sympathy for her and don't want to make her face the heavy consequences like prison. Especially the last point, I always see it in the subreddits about abusive relationships or women on women sexual assault. The majority of victims always say that they don't feel as hurt or as violated as much as if the perpetrator were a man, so they either have sympathy for them and don't want to report them, or even they did, they feel guilty afterwards and drop the charges most of the time. Something you would almost never see if the perpetrator is a man. Hell, even the comments are different between the cases where the assailant is a male and where the assailant is a female. In the first, they always tell the victims to report the man and wish for him to rot in jail, while in the second, they just tell them to stay away for the perpetrator and stop any contact with them, without any mention of reporting to the police or wishing for them to rot in jail.

[–]Luchadorgreen 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

No, no, women side with the group, but more often clash with the individuals in the group. Subtle difference.

[–]Fuckoff555 -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, which is actually more productive as you see these days where women stick together to fix all their problems and even to not let go of the advantages that they have, while men don't side with the group, so we never can accomplish anything. We have to admit that if we want to fix the problems that we face.

[–]not_just_amwac 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh dude, just visit any mom forum and you'll see how very wrong you are on that one.

[–]subthrowaway321 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There was an episode of survivor that I think shows how this actually plays out. They split the men and women up and dropped them on an island. The men built shelter, found food quickly, got along with each other, and it eventually looked like a tropical vacation by the end.

The women... Oh the women. They were so sure that they would beat the men out because girl power! We know how to work as a team and the men will all try to be independent and do their own thing. They said the men would start fighting with each other and nothing would be accomplished. Guess what happened when it came time to put up or shut up?

They failed, miserably. They almost immediately started fighting with each other, calling each other names, and gossiping about their teammates. They never got a shelter built, and they never found any food. By the end of the second day, the women's team was reduced to blubbering, crying, and complaining about how unfair and hard it was. I believe they had to end the event early for them as they didn't ever get shelter or food and were a real safety risk to themselves.

https://youtu.be/JnNJpwf4m7s

[–]Mr_MRAnarchist 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

They actually don't. Women are more social, but the back stabbing and gossip they do is crazy. Women always see other women as competition. They don't create social hirearchy like men tend to.

[–]Halafax 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

They don't create social hirearchy like men tend to.

No... Social hierarchy is exactly what they create. It's just less visible from the outside (and kind of cloudy on the inside).

Men tend to organize as a response to an issue, and it's fairly clear because you need to know who is above or below. If you didn't, you wouldn't know where to go.

Women are just as interested in social status, but the framework isn't clear. "who's at the top and bottom" is going to change based on what the question is.

I've never ceased to be amused about the "micro-aggressions" feminists claim men use to keep women down, but these tend to be more common among women themselves. micro-passive-aggressions, really.

[–]curlyconscience 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Can confirm the social hierarchy among women not from the same group of women is complex and results in conflict and dislike but many women will flock to a group with a queen bee per day as a matter of protection. Queen. Bees can belittle and degrade you or they will defend you all costs and defend you in turn for your loyalty. Queen bees are a defense structure just like gangs are. Problem is you never know which queen bee you're getting. It's better to establish yourself as queen bee and take less confident and mild women under your wing. You have to do it in such a way that you dont create competition for yourself though. It's a delicate balance and it's why as a woman I stopped playing that game.

[–]Mr_MRAnarchist 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, a hirearchy that changes isn't terribly useful. But yea, I get where your coming from.

[–]Dapperdan814 18 points19 points20 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Feminists: why don't you tackle the biggest cause of the problem before whining about men?

Because the feminists are the queen bees. Duh.

[–]fengpi 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Their internal dynamics do seem to follow a pattern like that. There's a kind of jockeying for status based on ideological purity, accomplishments and feminist street cred.

Feminism is about equality. Except for between each other.

[–]Mythandros 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminism has never been and will never be about equality. It's a female supremacy movement and always has been.

[–]Santaball 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because they hate men.

[–]v574v 13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Women don’t have access to chivalry with other women and they have no convenience to blame for their failures such as sexism.

Right now on another subreddit a woman is seen complaining about the sexism involved with her getting fired for being late to work.

Without sexism to blame these ladies still need to be the gender victim so here we are with some trumped up queen bee bullshit.

They should NOT be confused with strong, ambitious women in the workplace

Great except the difference between the two is in the eye of the beholder and that person probably has work related deficiencies.

[–]azazelcrowley 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They don't actually care about helping women, only attacking a vilifying men and their fucked up ideological framework conflates the two as one and the same.

[–]girlwriteswhat 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU297g2wypI

[–]RedForman- 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Stick it to them where it hurts. Their own gender.

[–]Daemonicus 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminists: why don't you tackle the biggest cause of the problem before whining about men?

For the same reason most people don't try and tackle black on black crime. They want there to be an easy scapegoat. With an easy scapegoat they can fool themselves into thinking that they have an easy solution. They lack the intelligence, and the education to see things with nuance. They want an identifiable enemy.

[–]zjchlorp101 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree with most of the comments here. Women's jealousy is the main problem. I work in science and there are more men at the top positions (head of the group) than women. However there are more women at junior-senior positions than men.
As one of the few men at the junior-senior positions, I notice some women just don't like to work with other women. Favouritism is also running rampant with women at the top positions.

[–]TheDirtFarmer 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I have worked in bars and restaurants my whole adult life and have witnessed this first hand. It can be mildly offensive to down right nasty. It usually happens in a group structure. There’s always a alpha bitch and a few subservient beta bitchs that are doing all the bullying.

[–]Illumin4tion 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Forgive my asking but where are the citations? I see one reference and one survey the author said they conducted without details on sample size et al. Did I miss it somewhere?

The website also says it's an opinion piece. Wondering how strong this info is.

[–][deleted] 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Women are equipped to be social: most of them have the ability to sense the little nuances of body language, facial expressions, and tone better than most, if not all, men.

wut

[–]RooseChange 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's one of their super powers. You didn't know that?

[–]NoFuryLikeKristine 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402412/

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

One bullshit feminist narrative study doesn't make a truth

[–]brotherjonathan 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

The same reason the liberal media doesnt address black on black murder.

[–]atred -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

What's so special about blacks killing blacks that needs to be addressed?

[–]FeierInMeinHose 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It's probably moreso that black on black murder happens at a much greater rate than cop on black murder, but for some reason people only talk about the cops.

[–]atred 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

What's a better news story: "dog bites human", or "human bites dog"? (not comparing anybody to dogs, just making a point) The fact that something happens at a much greater rate make it less likely to be reported, not more likely.

[–]Melrose_Jac 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think by “talking about” you should think “outrages” and “protested” rather than “reported”.

[–]atred -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think "where is the outrage" is pretty idiotic. You cannot prescribe what people should or should not be outraged about. And why protest, that bad people commit bad acts? Also the subject was "liberal media" it's not really the purpose of the media to protest.

[–]superhobo666 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It happens by orders of magnitude more than any other race killing blacks.

In fact, according to the FBI it happens less than black on white killing, and white on white killing.

[–]atred 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, so? Do you know that whites are mostly killed by whites? Where is the outrage?!

[–]Kabayev 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (56 children) | Copy Link

Can we not turn this sub into "look at all this stuff that some women do"?

This is such a huge generalization, just assuming that feminists don't care about this and also, not for this sub. This sub is for finding when men's rights are being impeded and then having a discussion about it, not r/womenarebad

[–]EricAllonde[S] 28 points29 points30 points 8 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

Feminists constantly smear & demonise both men and masculinity as the supposed cause of all the evils in the world.

Men are entitled to stand up for ourselves. When we get access to hard data that disproves one of feminism's favourite smears against men, I think we should share that evidence as widely as possible. That includes this sub.

Maybe you're happy to just lie down and take it whenever feminists want to slag you, and all other men, off as evil rapist monsters, etc etc. But I'm not going to do that, and neither are many others here. You can click on to the next post; some of the other subscribers here will want to read and use this information.

[–]CaseyDafuq 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There's no hard data here, it's just an opinion piece.

Why can't the issue say "bullying people in general" does the same thing in the workplace... Women bully men, wemon bully each other... men bully women and each other... it's all an illegal form of harassment of you're undermining coworkers.

[+]Kabayev -14 points-13 points-12 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

We must have different definitions of feminist

[–]Doing_It_In_The_Butt 14 points15 points16 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I like urban dictionary's:

  1. A woman who turns a relationship with a bad father or husband into a political agenda, seeking not equality, but revenge.

  2. A woman who decries the supposed misogyny of men by bashing everything masculine in sight.

  3. An obsequious man, who parrots whatever he thinks will earn the approval and attention of women.

  4. All of the above. Margie attended the feminist rally, then put her son on ritalin and bad mouthed his father till the boy hated him.

[+]Kabayev -7 points-6 points-5 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't.

[–]Tammylan 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Lighten up. It's a joke.

And it's a better and more pertinent joke than the #KillAllMen "joke" that feminists find so funny.

[–]JohnjSmithsJnr 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Is it though?

It seems pretty accurate for a lot of feminists despite what they claim to be after

[–]EgoandDesire 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Definitions are fucking irrelevant. Any normal person should only care about one thing, actions. The actions of feminists are what we complain about.

[–]Kabayev -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Right... who are feminists?

[–]NecroHexr 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

This relates to men's rights because we are being unfairly targeted and singled out.

[–]Kabayev 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

By whom, all feminists?

[–]NecroHexr 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Not all, but they add up to a general disagreement with men in the workplace.

Some cry rape, some cry pressure, some cry discrimination...

We need to flip some of these accusations and direct our attention on real issues and problems.

[–]Kabayev -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Agree with the last two lines.

This post has nothing to do with that.

This post is effectivly "see how bad women are? Focus on that." This isn't a gender issue. There will always be assholes.

[–]NecroHexr 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I don't think it attacks women as much as you think. He did point out an exact and irrefutable statistic, and then queried why feminists were not looking into this.

[–]Kabayev 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Why are "feminists" grouped into one large group and not considered to be individuals? There's no memo that goes out and there's no specific person calling the shots.

There is no vanguard feminist organization.

[–]NecroHexr 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It's a movement, and the movement consists of multiple ideas that are fronted by different individuals. The individuals may not agree with each other, but they're still advocating for feminism and female rights.

This does mean the good eggs are lumped in, but that cannot be helped. Feminism is a simple catch-all term, only dissected by context.

Here, feminism implies the toxic part, whereas if you're talking about feminism in third world countries, it can be seen in more positive light.

[–]Kabayev 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I see.

When I think feminism, the first word that comes to mind is not "toxic".

[–]NecroHexr 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

When I think feminism, I don't think much, it's the context that prompts my subsequent reactions.

I guess that's the end of this conversation.

[–]Alzael 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Why are "feminists" grouped into one large group and not considered to be individuals?

It's a collective label. It is a term that describes a group of people who share a similiar ideology.

They are grouped together because they are, in fact a group.

There's no memo that goes out and there's no specific person calling the shots.

Then the group designation is meaningless. if all feminists are only individuals with no "memo" or central ideology then the label is completely useless and serves no purpose because it conveys no useful information about the person or group.

In order for the word to have meaning there have to be distinctions and ways of measuring what is and is not a feminist. A term that can mean anything, means nothing.

This is a rhetorical scam called a motte and bailey doctrine which feminists will attempt to pull all of the time. They will claim that feminism is not a hivemind or has no teachings/dogma/central ideas/etc as a means of deflecting criticism for the bad things done by their group (we'll call this proposition A). Then they will turn around and make claims about how feminism fought for the vote for the women, or how feminism is all about equality, or feminists don't hate men, etc. (Proposition B).

Note that both of these claims are contradictory. If there are no central ideas or tenets of feminism and it is all just individuals then feminism cannot be credited with women getting the vote, nor can they say that feminists don't hate men or anything else.

The reason they do this is because if feminism is portrayed as a group of individuals then the ideology cannot be held to any standard and it gives them a way out for any responsibility for the things that they do. The downside to this however is that, as I mentioned, it renders the entire concept and authority of feminism useless and irrelevant.

Which is why they will quickly switch to the other side when they need to speak with authority. That however opens them up to being disproved and held to standards. Which is then they quickly retreat back into "Feminism is just about equality" or "There are many different ways of being a feminist".

It's the typical behaviour or any cult or religion when it gets called out on it's doctrines or dogmas and their effects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV5JoFLnikg

There is no vanguard feminist organization.

There is, however, a central ideology and core tenets adopted by nearly all feminists. There are mountains of feminists texts and scholarly work one can read. You can look at the most supported and vaunted feminists and see what they say, advocate for and think, you can look at the organizations.

You can look at all of feminism and see VERY clearly what their goal is and what their ideology stands for and represents.

[–]Kabayev 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I hear what you’re saying.

I guess my main issue is that people take “feminist” to have a negative connotation when all it means to me is “equal rights for women”

[–]RapeMatters 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This post is effectivly "see how bad women are? Focus on that." This isn't a gender issue. There will always be assholes.

I've noticed this weird habit. Issues that disproportionately harm women are gendered issues and require a gender specific approach. Issues that disproportionately harm men affect everyone and focusing on men is missing part of the problem.

Men disproportionately being shitty in one area is a gendered problem we need to work on men to fix. Women disproportionately being shitty in one area is a nongendered problem that results because people are assholes.

Over and over again. Same pattern. Over and over again.

We're getting wise to the tactics.

[–]Doing_It_In_The_Butt 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

We are discussing on average what female nature is the workplace. Men do not have many places to talk about these things. So while I agree with you that maybe this subreddit should be for strict activism, it is refreshing to you just express a very observable and widespread opinion (that women gossip heavily) without being called a woman hater. But of course there are always people like you to insinuate that we are XOXO

But one can also argue that it is a mens rights issue (although a small one) because it discusses gendered behaviour. When one gender performs an action it has a reaction on the other one.

For example it used to be common place amongst men to use pretty aggressive language when talking to one another ("come on get that report done so we can do to the pub, you lazy shit"). Men do not mind and it is quite common. Of course this does not work well for women in the workplace,who on average prefer more neutral language.

Similarly when women gossip and bully themselves but also form solidarity together in public effects the way men interact with them in teams. for example I had to sit through a painfully bad presentation presented by a female college in my team meeting, most of the team are female. When I or my other male team member showed any sign of constructive criticism we were shunned and all the female team members showered the presenter in compliments.

Maybe women, like men, need to adapt their most natural behaviour in the workplace in order to achieve a more functional team structure, or maybe i need to learn the ways of the queen bee and start validating and gossiping too. Who knows...

[–]Kabayev 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

So while I agree with you that maybe this subreddit should be for strict activism, it is refreshing to you just express a very observable and widespread opinion (that women gossip heavily) without being called a woman hater. But of course there are always people like you to insinuate that we are XOXO

Could you explain what you mean here?

[–]Doing_It_In_The_Butt 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Although I agree men's rights subreddit should be a place to advocate for mens issues, there are not a lot of male spaces. many traditional male spaces have be integrated with greater society. from the work place or video gaming spaces or sports teams, if men like these spaces and speak their mind in them, you can be sure some feminist needs to come in a reeducate men with 3rd wave crap. Now being integrated into greater society is great but in greater society non feminist positions are generally undervalued disallowed or simply shouted down. Men cannot express themselves honestly within greater society without being harpied by angry women, white knights or feminists who care about their feelings more than fact. For this reason It is refreshing to have an online community of men where we can occasionally talk about societal issues. Yes the forum should be for activism, but there are so few honest male spaces that I think sometimes we can just talk.

Now I do not endorse hatred of women, just talking about societal realities from a male perspective does not constitute hate. Something you insinuated with this sentence.

This sub is for finding when men's rights are being impeded and then having a discussion about it, not r/womenarebad

[–]Kabayev 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

For this reason It is refreshing to have an online community of men where we can occasionally talk about societal issues. Yes the forum should be for activism, but there are so few honest male spaces that I think sometimes we can just talk.

Agree, but doesn’t make it alright, yknow? If the post was worded differently, maybe. But it’s turned into an us vs. them

[–]Doing_It_In_The_Butt 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't make it wrong either, yknow. my post does not need to be worded differently. Maybe you need to stop seeing wrong think where there is none.

[–]Kabayev 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I’d say it’s wrongly worded because it makes an assumption about all feminists.

[–]Doing_It_In_The_Butt 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Boo hoo? I dont care about feminists. Infact I highly dislike them. Egalitarians is where it is at.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

Yes, don't point out that women are as bad as men, because we should just accept the double standard men are treated with.

[–]Kabayev -5 points-4 points-3 points 8 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

Pray tell, what's the double standard here?

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

That men are claimed to be the "obstacle", the invisible hand that prevents women in the workforce. This isn't true but pussypass applies.

[–]Kabayev 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

Even according to this article, the other 42% of "workplace bullies" are men.

Regardless, you don't attribute how mean or horrible a person is to their gender. This doesn't seem like it's a gender problem.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

you don't attribute how mean or horrible a person is to their gender.

Feminists do. Hence the double standard by ignoring the majority of bullies being female

[–]Kabayev -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Feminists are not just some giant hivemind. They're individual people with nuances in their opinions.

You're taking the worst of them and making it thier face.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

Nuanced opinions? Talking to a feminist is exactly like to talking to a hivemind. They've got the same talking points by the millions but if what you say is true then that'd be great but I'd like some data to support your claim.

[–]Kabayev 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

You want me to give you data that there are people under the umbrella of "feminists" who have different opinions?

Have you never met a sane feminist? Yknow the good old equal rights kind?

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

We're moving into the "no true scotsman" territory.

Could you guide me in the direction of a sane modern mainstream and acknowledged feminist? I'm sure they exist but they're the minority afaik.

[–]Eraser-Head -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Dude, I’m with you 100%. Generalization gets us no where. Mods need to step up, most of the posts on MR are petty and underneath us.

[–]Kabayev 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks!

[–]ICallEveryoneBabe 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

THIS IS SO TRUE. And a great point of argument when conversing with feminists.

[–]orezavi 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

/r/femradebates

[–]fengpi 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But going-after Queen bees would be misogyny! Who cares how many women get bullied when the bully is another woman?

We need to stand-up for (some) victims and punish (some) perpetrators so that (not) everybody can work in peace!

[–]daymo 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I just think some people are assholes. Gender probably plays less of a role than articles on either side of the fence would suggest.

[–]Excellent-Rip1740 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I found that women can feel threatened by a talented or attractive female work colleague. They will secretly hate for no reason

[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think we should get rid of the hierarchy at work. If someone working there is being a piece of shit, you just get to beat the ever living shit out of them, bite their ear off or something. That'll teach them.

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