Does anybody else die a bit inside every time you see somebody fired over accusations?

sonofsuperman1983 · 2017-12-06T02:49:35+00:00

You know what I've realized with the #MeToo thing? If you look hard enough, every single person on this Earth has at some point or another been both a victim and a harasser.

I have been groped. So, technically, I am a victim of sexual assault. I don't feel this way, though. I don't define myself as such.

When I was 17, I misread some signals, and, because Cosmopolitan told me that girls love assertive guys, I made a premature move and grabbed my date's ass while we were making out. She immediately pulled away, said we were moving too fast, and asked me to take her home. So, I took her home. But technically, I am a sex offender.

If I were a celebrity, this woman could go public with this story from decades ago and claim that I sexually assaulted her. She could say I grabbed her ass without her consent. And I wouldn't be able to deny that it happened and my career would be ruined.

But joke's on them, I'm unemployed.

-manatease · 2017-12-06T09:59:52+00:00

It's all very sexist imo, they say that the problem isn't in the harassment per se, but the power dynamic. So a woman can relentlessly flirt with/harass a superior, because it's different. She can sleep with him and it's career progression, unless she wants to complain at some future point whereby he is then he's guilty of harassment and exploitation.

Women marry/date up. Men don't. So the entire thing is skewed from the start is the important aspect is power. Not sexual power, not institutional power (sleep with me or I'll say you harassed/raped me) but the power that women are drawn towards.

shark_and_kaya · 2017-12-06T04:20:33+00:00

Yes and No

If it is justified and all the evidence is brought in front of hr and both parties had fair defense than yes person is deservedly needs to be fired. However I feel like there are tons of men being unjustly accused. Unfortunately I had to round up all my male workers, make them sign NDA's and tell them to not even say hello or friendly flirt with any coworker in or out of our workplace. Unfortunately even an remote false accusation could slander my business and our reputation its simple as that. People get up an arms about stuffy they don't know on social media way too quickly. Instead of judging right from wrong with fact people will follow whoever has more social presence now of these days.

Unfortunately due to these kind of false accusations I will have to hire with discrimination towards certain gender.

Tedesche · 2017-12-06T00:30:21+00:00

I feel ya, man.

This whole #metoo thing has me very conflicted. On the one hand, I really do empathize with the women who couldn't speak up about this stuff for decades without risking their careers or just being told that they had no right to object—it's profoundly invalidating, and I understand the righteous fury many women are feeling now.

However, that same righteous fury has driven this whole thing too far, and now merely flirtatious behavior in a workplace setting is being categorized as cruel, callous harassment (e.g. Dustin Hoffman's case—he stopped as soon as the women asked him to, but she's still accusing him nonetheless, because he made her feel uncomfortable and she didn't have the guts to be assertive for most of it). The response to any accusation now is immediate outrage, and if that outrage garners enough media attention, subsequent firing. Like the Title IX investigations, employers aren't really firing these men because they've got evidence of their guilt; they're firing them because it's socially and economically convenient to go along with the mob, rather than risk becoming its target.

Still, some of these men really are guilty of some bad shit, and they deserve what they're getting. This is a complex topic, and as much sympathy as you may have for one side, it's on all of us to try to remain unbiased, which means keeping the perspectives of the other side in mind. Fail to do that, and you become part of the problem.

locks_are_paranoid · 2017-12-06T05:26:53+00:00

Exactly. A perfect example is Bill Cosby. A ton of women accusing him does not make him guilty. Sure, he might be guilty, but he also might be innocent, and in the US a person is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law.

Fortspucking · 2017-12-06T08:40:11+00:00

They remind me of the old Communist purge show-trials, criminalizing anyone who wasn't sufficiently indoctrinated. And yes, the recent John Oliver sucker-punch of Dustin Hoffman makes me feel ill. I hope his supply of male guests dries up after this. Preening little shit.

3-10 · 2017-12-06T05:38:05+00:00

Depends, if I feel they are false, then yes. If I feel they have some validity...usually no.

What pisses me off is when someone had an affair and then the girl complains about it 2+ years later. No, that girl had no problem with the sex at the time, only when she feels guilty or slighted does she feel abused. That's not how this game is played...

throwaway73-b-132 · 2017-12-06T07:48:58+00:00

Yeah it kills me. Sexual harassment is kind of a joke in my opinion. Read some story of a girl who spoke about a famous guy that touched her back in a supportive way. So many girls have touched me and I just appreciate that they like me enough to touch me. I'm not gonna ruin their lives over something like that even if I was uncomfortable.

FuckingPrawns · 2017-12-06T13:15:24+00:00

Yup. Not because I don't care that there are some true victims out there, but that they're are being punished for something they have no yet been found guilty of. What's more, so much weight is now on employers etc to fire the accused before any trial (if there even is one) has taken place. Heck, the "brave women who spoke out" are now the Times Magazine Person(s) of the year. All it takes now is one accusation and you get fired, and that only works for one gender. That's not right.

KingRobotPrince · 2017-12-06T11:32:41+00:00

Short answer: absolutely.

Long answer: we actually passed the point where a simply accusation can ruin careers or businesses years ago. It's a serious problem, and actually affects both genders. People have become wary of not only hiring women and minorities, but also how they discipline them and how people behave around their coworkers. This affects moral and productivity.

sesekriri · 2017-12-06T18:15:23+00:00

I think a lot of times the accusations are credible, but it's still frustrating to have then pass completely over any sort of legal action. For example, personally, I think Kevin Spacy is guilty of the accusations thrown against him. There have been dozens of accusations over the years and this recent one with an underage kid is even more concerning. The issue is that his career is destroyed without a single legal action taking place. While I PERSONALLY think he is guilty of the accusations, the prospect of a career being destroyed in moments is a really scary one.

On the other hand, I think the lumping together of accusations is pretty scary too. I've seen countless articles say things like "the recent accusations against people like Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, and Louie CK.." and Its so frustrating because those three sets of accusations are on 3 completely different tiers and lumping them together isn't fair to any of them or their victims

ExpendableOne · 2017-12-06T17:55:54+00:00

I agree. I've seen it happen first hand. It doesn't even have to be any kind of legal or official major accusation either. A woman can fabricate any claim she wants, even something as small or intangible as "he looked at me the wrong way", and it can ruin a guy's social and/or professional life. It's the devastation that women can bring on a guy just through gossip, slander and libel, not to mention the devastation she might cause to his personal/mental health(if you are disheartened watching it happen, imagine how disheartened and drained the person living through it is).

Imagine having through watch all your friends make excuses or distance themselves, even when they know you didn't do anything wrong, or say things like "bitches be crazy, watcha gonna do" to justify the toxic/destructive behaviour. Imagine having your female friends just say shit like "sorry, can't talk to you anymore cause girls have to stick together/chicks before dicks" and your male friends say shit like "sorry, not going to do/say anything cause I don't want trouble with the girls; just glad it didn't happen to me" or some variation of "girlfriend won't have sex with me if I don't take her side".

No matter what, people will show women favouritism in a personal/social context(which extends to the workplace because every job still involves some form of personal/social setting). Burden of proof doesn't matter. Innocence doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that a woman decided to slander a guy, emotionally/socially abusing him from a position of power and privilege. No one will hold that woman accountable and no one will care that you were a victim because you are a man, if not simply because that would be going against both traditional gender roles and feminism(pretty scary how much these actually have in common when it comes down to it).

There is this massive systematic blind spot for the type of abuse and bullying that women specifically are capable of(you could even call it toxic femininity).

BlueOrange22 · 2017-12-06T04:08:51+00:00

I've gotten to the point where I'm actually supporting people when there's proof they did it, because they still had their life ruined long before any evidence came out against them

If you mean you support them even after the proof comes out, then no, I'm sorry, but that's 100% wrong and not a position compatible with the MRM. If there's proof then that means the person is guilty of sexual harassment/assault, and that is not someone who should be supported in anyway. The MRM doesn't do things like that, this isn't a zero sum game, we don't support wrong things out of spite or revenge. We have a certain standard of quality and integrity that makes us the better group, and we can never lose that. If someone is guilty of sexual assault, they need to face consequences.

splodgenessabounds · 2017-12-06T10:47:09+00:00

In some measure, this #MeToo carnage does trouble me (and, I suggest, most rational people), particularly the instant dismissals that appear to be based on nothing more than someone's allegation/ accusation based (in some instances) on events alleged to have occurred many years ago. I mean, innocent until proven otherwise, due process, reasonable grounds and so on.

Where I diverge from your POV is this:

I've gotten to the point where I'm actually supporting people when there's proof they did it, because they still had their life ruined long before any evidence came out against them.

Prosecuting and promoting the presumption of innocence is laudable. Resenting public condemnation without fair trial is understandable. Siding with Weinstein is a step too far, for me anyway. Let the judiciary - for all its faults - hear, deliberate and decide.

AloysiusC · 2017-12-06T13:59:51+00:00

Entire society dies a little bit whenever this happens.

sonofsuperman1983 · 2017-12-06T14:31:16+00:00

Gay guys love toxic masculinity, like they absolutely fucking love it. One women poison is another man pleasure.

rocelot7 · 2017-12-06T04:14:46+00:00

No. Mainly because I don't externally reason my emotions towards lives that aren't my own. Though if I had nickle for every claim that gets trumped up by the media that turns out to be false or fails to lead to a conviction. Well I'd have shit load of nickles.

adulterescent · 2017-12-06T12:22:58+00:00

If I'm ever on a jury again... automatic not guilty for any man

78stickup · 2017-12-06T01:51:08+00:00

No.

This topic will be fiercely disputed among right wing Americans, but American citizens fought back during the Great depression and achieved basic human/union rights.

They fought against all odds -- police, vigilantes, even the National Guard -- and won the right to organize.

Don't let right wingers like /u/girlwriteswhat define you. Men have always had to fight to secure their basic rights.

Does anybody else die a bit inside every time you see somebody fired over accusations?

Comments

Patriarchy Rape Culture Misogyny Male Privilege Toxic Masculinity