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Millennials grew up when LibFems were pushing porn & TradCons were pushing abstinence education, both of which massively failed to teach women anything good or helpful about our sexuality. Meanwhile, racist middle aged perverts used porn to groom an entire generation of men to sexually abuse us.

TheOGJammies

March 13, 2020

620 upvotes

/r/FemaleDatingStrategy

/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/fhw00h/millennials_grew_up_when_libfems_were_pushing/

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Title	Millennials grew up when LibFems were pushing porn & TradCons were pushing abstinence education, both of which massively failed to teach women anything good or helpful about our sexuality. Meanwhile, racist middle aged perverts used porn to groom an entire generation of men to sexually abuse us.
Author	TheOGJammies
Upvotes	620
Comments	78
Date	March 13, 2020 7:40 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/FemaleDatingStrategy
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/fhw00h/millennials_grew_up_when_libfems_were_pushing/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/millennials-grew-up-when-libfems-were-pushing-porn.693189 https://theredarchive.com/post/693189

Comments

[–]penelopekittyFDS STRATEGY COACH 174 points175 points176 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheOGJammiesRuthless Strategist[S] 25 points26 points27 points 6 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeah this divide between the generations understanding and experience of sex became so apparent after the "backlash" against MeToo over Aziz Ansari - who's every actions (especially "the claw" wtf) indicate a porn sick creep. Second wave feminists all ganged up to pile on millennial/Gen Z women about being weak snowflakes and taking MeToo "too far"

A lot of it was probably due to the poor writing skills of the original journalist from babe.net. It was disappointing that the article wasn't more articulate about the issues at hand. And rather than mount a legitimate defense of her Aziz piece, all the writer did was attack some of the critics’ personal appearance (Banfield) as" burgundy-lipstick, bad-highlights, second-wave-feminist has-been "

Like, I wish she had been waaaayyy more focused and specific about what the issue was with Banfield's critique, but I totally understood her "STFU Boomer" vibe.

Reducing what has become a culture of grooming women for sexual abuse down to a "bad date" and lecturing us about "personal responsibility" was insulting.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheOGJammiesRuthless Strategist[S] 21 points22 points23 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I think I always knew men lied for sex, but I didn't know how *low* they would go to lie for sex. Like I was thinking it would be mostly white lies, like how much money he has, embellishing his accomplishments, etc. Movies and TV always would make it seem like men would say stupid lies like this because they liked the girl so much and they wanted to impress her. It was always portrayed as cute.

NOPE. ITS FAR WORSE.

These dudes out here making up whole careers, hiding whole wives and children, creating whole different identities, faking entire relationships, engaging in secret gross perversions...and not always the men you would suspect!

The lies men tell are insane and nothing in life can truly prepare you for it. And what's even worse is to the extent women get blamed for this nonsense. I'm so over it.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheOGJammiesRuthless Strategist[S] 22 points23 points24 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SarcasmSlideFDS Disciple 42 points43 points44 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]DatonecatladyuknoFDS Apprentice 101 points102 points103 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]miz_nycFDS Newbie 43 points44 points45 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]DatonecatladyuknoFDS Apprentice 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]honeybeerollFDS Disciple 14 points15 points16 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't understand how people can say "you're not sex positive!" but in the same breath it is a known sad joke that men don't know or care about how to please a woman. Like, that's been a thing forever. Girls will joke about it...and continue having casual sex that can, and often is, super harmful to them. I'm stunned at the horror stories ladies on here share :(. It's sad that I think wow I'm lucky I've only had 2 guys try to verbally pressure me into sex and that I've never thought or expected sex to be a painful experience :(. The bar shouldn't be set that low.

I know precisely one woman who casual sex has been okay for (she's had her bad incidents tho of course). However she's never done it bc it's "cool," she is also never afraid to say no, and I think it's important to note that she is also bi, so her casual sex doesn't always involve men.

Women have to stop preaching that sex positivity for the majority means going home with men who don't care about you!!

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]desihfFDS Newbie 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]DM-ME-CATSFDS Newbie 106 points107 points108 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SewudFDS Apprentice 108 points109 points110 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]DatonecatladyuknoFDS Apprentice 32 points33 points34 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ghygdryhchmmmmjjFDS Newbie 14 points15 points16 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]ghostofaflowerPickmeisha™️ -15 points-14 points-13 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]DatonecatladyuknoFDS Apprentice 20 points21 points22 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SewudFDS Apprentice 18 points19 points20 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]raddish_spirit1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Less than ten years ago I was made to sign an abstinence contract at my public New England area school. When I asked for lessons on birth control or even talk of abortion I was sent to the principals office for being inappropriate. We of course had to watch the video of a woman giving birth while the football coach (the only health ed teacher for 6th-12th) grade laughed about how he had never found his wife grosser than in that moment.

Everything in that class was a joke, nothing was serious. We were not taught safe sex, safe relationships, nothing. Our school also had an average of 20 pregnant teens a year out of a school population of less than 400. Every year about half of them would drop out and it’s easy to see on Facebook that the other half are in pyramid schemes or are bartenders for the rest of their lives. Very, very few of these moms made it to college or careers or are still with the baby daddy. (Also not knocking on bar tending but I did that shit for two years and cannot imagine raising a child at the same time/with that pay).

Crazy to think that it still has not changed. I would have a lot of words to say to my child’s educators if this is the poor excuse for health class that they had.

[–]QueenOfColorsFDS Newbie 54 points55 points56 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]jesza09FDS Apprentice 36 points37 points38 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]FluffandRaincloudsRuthless Strategist 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]chungkingxbricksFDS Newbie 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mypepsipussyFDS Newbie 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AutoModerator[M] 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AutoModerator[M] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AutoModerator[M] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Ninauposkitzipxpe1 points 6 years ago* [recovered]locked comment (45 children) | Copy Link

Where does this whole LibFems pushing porn narrative come from? At most there's been a push for porn that caters to women instead of men. As far as "traditional" porn, MEN have been pushing that, not women.

[–]supremelyparanoidFDS Apprentice 32 points33 points34 points 6 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

[+]Ninauposkitzipxpe1 points 6 years ago [recovered]locked comment (28 children) | Copy Link

I don't know. Me and most of my friends are "LibFems" and none of us are like "YES, PORN IS GREAT AND EMPOWERING", most of us find it exceptionally gross. There is a subsection of porn that is actually for women and that is not as gross and usually it's female-owned but that's the only conceivable way I could see it being "pushed".

I think this is just a strange opinion OP has that isn't based in fact.

[–]jesza09FDS Apprentice 19 points20 points21 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]NinauposkitzipxpePickmeisha™️ -11 points-10 points-9 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 6 years agolocked comment (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]NinauposkitzipxpePickmeisha™️ 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]SunnydaleHSDropoutFDS Newbie 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I understand your point. And I disagree with the idea that "porn is porn is porn." The main problem with porn is its commercialization, exploitation of women and children, and enforcement of patriarchal, racist, sexist, transphobic ideas. But anyone can make porn that exists outside of that framework - you're just not gonna find it on PornHub.

I think it's hard to have a nuanced conversation about porn here, because on the whole, porn has had a detrimental effect on women and has eroded relationships. MOST men are not watching the kind of (usually women-produced) porn that you and I would find healthy/entertaining/realistic/representative of our experiences. So while, no, not all porn has to be degrading and entrenched in harmful patriarchal fantasies, that can't be used as a reason to support the continuation of the porn industry. None of the people who should be changing the way they make/consume porn are even thinking about it. At this point, mainstream porn and its consumer base are what they will be.

I can see why people on this sub revert back to "LibFems support the porn industry" if you haven't really delved into the matter. Because while I don't at all support the porn industry, I do believe you can create porn that, again, exists outside of the framework that produces the kind of porn you find on PornHub.

Unless it's not just the framework FDSers have a problem with, but also the masturbation to a representation of sexual activity. Maybe it's the thought that doing so is what pulls a person away from their partner, or causes ED. Veteran FDSers, feel free to educate me. Though I know I may just get downvoted/banned.

[–]aclumsygirlAt-Risk Pick Me Youth 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]SunnydaleHSDropoutFDS Newbie 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

long comment warning

I think the thing we’re all saying here is that there very well may be individual women who choose to do porn (over other options) because they enjoy it, profit off of it, and see some kind of overall personal benefit.

BUT (and this is a big but) their experience and enjoyment does not exist in a vacuum— it is still set in an overall patriarchal context in which women are exploited, brutalized, and abused for the pleasure of men. So any benefit these individual women may personally/cognitively enjoy doesn’t matter, isn’t observed, and isn’t prioritized in the capitalist, misogynistic society in which we currently live.

So to follow that through, their participation - no matter how they personally characterize it - validates a corrupt, harmful industry. By taking advantage of both the patriarchy and capitalism, by profiting off of their own sexualization, they uphold the very messed up values we all observe in the porn industry.

With that in mind, I guess all I have to say is... it sucks. It sucks that women have to limit the ways in which we use and explore our bodies in hopes of - what? someday achieving the downfall of the patriarchy? Somehow reversing this millennia-long course?

I may be getting away from my main point here but I think we face this issue in a lot of ways when facing daily patriarchal obstacles. In theory, I should be able to walk down the street at night, by myself, and make it to where I’m going safely. But in reality, I’m never making that walk — not without mace.

Patriarchy really is such a boundary around us, preventing us from doing things we may really want to do, how we want to do them. Porn is no exception. And I think this is where people’s opposite takes on the issue come from.

Some believe that no matter what the patriarchy says, no matter the larger context, they should be able to self-sexualize the way they see fit. They should be able to walk alone at night - so they do. They should be able to have casual sex and ONS - so they do.

While others see this participation as a hindrance to societal progression. Normalize it, and we regress.

I don’t know what I believe. I do hate that patriarchy puts us in a box. I don’t do well in boxes. I guess I just don’t know if coming out of that box does more help or harm.

Thoughts?

[–]memoryswimFDS Newbie 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]NinauposkitzipxpePickmeisha™️ 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]NinauposkitzipxpePickmeisha™️ -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]buy_me_cookiesFDS Newbie 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]NinauposkitzipxpePickmeisha™️ -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]buy_me_cookiesFDS Newbie 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]NinauposkitzipxpePickmeisha™️ 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]wetblanketdreamsFDS Newbie -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]supremelyparanoidFDS Apprentice 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[+]Ninauposkitzipxpe1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

Not particularly. I asked a question: where does that narrative come from? Everyone's just being bitchy instead lol.

[–]not_your_guruFDS Newbie 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]supremelyparanoidFDS Apprentice 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]NinauposkitzipxpePickmeisha™️ 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]supremelyparanoidFDS Apprentice 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]NinauposkitzipxpePickmeisha™️ 14 points15 points16 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]aclumsygirlAt-Risk Pick Me Youth 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

First of all-- I give you a lot of credit for your responses. You're not really getting many answers vs. Indignance and insults.

I too was confused when people started attacking liberal feminists wholesale as being pro-porn. Every girl I went to college with ID'ed as a libfem and I never heard anyone try to describe porn or SW as "empowering."

But I do think there's a subset of "sex positive" libfems who normalize it and push the IDEA that porn is perfectly fine and not harmful, and women who want to do it shouldn't be shamed. A lot of them are ex-SWs, so you see the bias. It's this subset that is angering everyone on this thread.

I don't see you arguing that. You probably think like me: I think the nature of sex work is inherently exploitative of women, so I'll never be pushing it or celebrating it. But I'm also very much against shaming women who do it, many of whom need help, not judgment. It's a capitalist problem much more than a moral one.

I'll always be skeptical of movements to restrict women's sexual freedom and expression simply because they will always be co-opted by men to serve their own needs. Instead, we should celebrate that we have the freedom of doing what we want sexually while hopefully realizing on our own that OUR best interests are served by being very judicious about who we love, sleep with, marry, and procreate with. And that it serves us to hold men to the highest possible standards in that regard.

[–]TheOGJammiesRuthless Strategist[S] 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

If you've read feminists works than you should be very familiar with the porn wars, which YES, liberal feminists fought anti-porn feminists over. It was kind of a huge deal.

Read and learn:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_pornography#Sex-positive_feminism

https://www.nytimes.com/1995/09/10/books/porn-wars.html

https://people.howstuffworks.com/5-feminist-movements4.htm

Feminists were, and still do, promoting porn, under the argument of personal liberty.

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.1086/686752

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/rachelrabbitwhite/what-is-feminist-porn

And Gloria Steinem and Sylvia Plath are solidly second wave feminists - the third wave feminism Millennials grew up on started in the 90s and was absolutely a pro-porn “sex positive” movement.

[–]NinauposkitzipxpePickmeisha™️ 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheOGJammiesRuthless Strategist[S] 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]TheOGJammiesRuthless Strategist[S] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Except, it's not a few people, it's solidly a defining feature of 3rd wave feminism to repackage exploitation as empowerment:

Girly" feminism Third-wave feminism was often associated, primarily by its critics, with the emergence of so-called "lipstick" or "girly" feminists and the rise of "raunch culture". This was because these new feminists advocated for "expressions of femininity and female sexuality as a challenge to objectification". Accordingly, this included the dismissal of any restriction, whether deemed patriarchal or feminist, to define or control how women or girls should dress, act, or generally express themselves.[61] These emerging positions stood in stark contrast with the anti-pornography strains of feminism prevalent in the 1980s. Second-wave feminism viewed pornography as encouraging violence towards women.[58] The new feminists posited that the ability to make autonomous choices about self-expression could be an empowering act of resistance, not simply internalized oppression.

Such views were critiqued because of the subjective nature of empowerment and autonomy. Scholars were unsure whether empowerment was best measured as an "internal feeling of power and agency" or as an external "measure of power and control". Moreover they critiqued an over-investment in "a model of free will and choice" in the marketplace of identities and ideas.[62] Regardless, the "girly" feminists attempted to be open to all different selves while maintaining a dialogue about the meaning of identity and femininity in the contemporary world.

Third-wave feminists said that these viewpoints should not be limited by the label "girly" feminism or regarded as simply advocating for "raunch culture". Rather, they sought to be inclusive of the many diverse roles women fulfill. Gender scholars Linda Duits [nl] and Liesbet van Zoonen highlighted this inclusivity by looking at the politicization of women's clothing choices and how the "controversial sartorial choices of girls" and women are constituted in public discourse as "a locus of necessary regulation".[61] Thus the "hijab" and the "belly shirt", as dress choices, were both identified as requiring regulation but for different reasons. Both caused controversy, while appearing to be opposing forms of self-expression. Through the lens of "girly" feminists, one can view both as symbolic of "political agency and resistance to objectification". The "hijab" could be seen as an act of resistance against Western ambivalence towards Islamic identity, and the "belly shirt" an act of resistance against patriarchal society's narrow views of female sexuality. Both were regarded as valid forms of self-expression.[62]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism

[–]NinauposkitzipxpePickmeisha™️ -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rinabeanFDS Apprentice 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Not all liberal women or feminists are into porn. And, if any of these people supported actual exploitation and trafficking that would be a problem

What do you mean by that? It sounds like you're trying to say porn isn't always "actual exploitation"... ie you are supporting porn like a typical liberal feminist?

What you personally believe should not take away from any woman’s personal choice in how she experiences her sexuality.

Well yeah, that's what makes liberal feminists liberal? It's all freedom freedom freedom and little critical thought. Not all feminists agree that women have personal choice in sexuality at all. Some of us, largely radical feminists, don't agree that women in porn are making a personal, sexual choice.

It’s be like if I said all 2nd wave feminists were TERFs. They’re not.

This was a big issue in 2nd wave feminism and now again in what is perhaps going to be the 4th wave. Like the acceptance of porn in the 3rd wave. Of course feminists have different opinions, but when we categorise them, we are categorising them according to opinion. Everything you're saying is typical libfem stuff and that's why you're annoying other feminists.

[–]NinauposkitzipxpePickmeisha™️ 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]rinabeanFDS Apprentice 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]NinauposkitzipxpePickmeisha™️ 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Radtron3000FDS Disciple 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]NinauposkitzipxpePickmeisha™️ 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Radtron3000FDS Disciple 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think that matters in the long run. It was probably a solution for her to take agency of her sexuality but she's still participating in an avenue that largely revolves around serving male gratification. It's part of why men act entitled to behave however they wish towards women; consumption of pornography, dehumanizing women and reducing them to sexual objects - we see physical evidence when female porn stars have replicas of their genitalia as severed body parts at the adult store. It's sickening how women are objectified, reduced to body parts that are picked over like being at a butcher shop.

Female porn stars are often mistreated. It's not a fun job for them. Sometimes the pay can be good, but you tell me if it's worth it to be fucked by strangers for hours at a time, possibly getting raped while the director says keep going, let's finish this film? There are several accounts of former porn stars criticising the industry.

It's not empowering for women. It's demeaning.

[–]Radtron3000FDS Disciple 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Radtron3000FDS Disciple 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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