Vaush: MRA issues are actually feminist issues.

Alataire · 2020-06-28T10:31:10+00:00

All that feminism does regarding to men is claim that issues men face are also feminist issues. They try to co-opt them for clout, without actually understanding them, trying to understand them or fundamentally change them. You have to look at what they do, not what they claim.

As I was told by a feminist on an event about the historical position of women that I visited (hardly any men present, and the few that were there were singled out and ridiculed): feminism is for women, and by women. The only time they claim it is not, is if they can co-opt problems without addressing them. Fun fact - I went to that event because I wanted to convince myself the type of man-hating and man-excluding feminists you find on the internet are not actually like that in the real world. This kind of singling out on the basis of sex is what we teach men not to do if women are a minority, yet here we are.

No, I will start to believe that feminism is actually also for mens issues once they stop calling men "allies" instead of feminists. When men who are feminists are taken seriously, even though they have a different gender. When they stop pushing for woman quota in universities while stating that fields that have almost no men only have a problem if it is 100% women - while calling those woman quota a genderquotum.

You want to know who believes in gender equality? People working in STEM seem to believe in gender equality, they signal that there are hardly any women and they do something about it. People in gendersciences? They just say "oh we still have a couple of token men, so we will be fine", besides we are so smart we can just imagine how men think so we don't need them.

As for defending men's rights within the Feminist framework: good luck. Feminism is called feminism for a reason. It has the fundamental assumption that women are the victim, although they will formulate it slightly differently - that's why they are called feminists and not egalitarians. The feminists who thought that women are equal to men and should be treated the same as men - regardless of the fact that it might sometimes be bad for women - have died out. The new generation is all about oppression stacks and "oh my I am a poor weak powerless creature without any political power" while having entire academic fields dedicated to them.

matrixislife · 2020-06-28T11:04:13+00:00

This is a frequent feminist argument, especially in the realms of menslib etc. In practise what it means is "stop complaining about it, we'll let you know when we do something about it, but you're going to have to wait".
Basically it's a sop to try to keep men in line. If you saw the Gillette advert you'll know the kind of thing I'm talking about. I don't trust anyone who tries to use it seriously.

Dunkolunko · 2020-06-28T09:58:55+00:00

How do they stem from patriarchy? Is he defining patriarchy the same way feminists do or does he literally just mean the system in which men occupy the majority of community leadership roles? In which case, what do the injustices against men have to do with that?

And how does he explain how as feminism grows, many men's issues and unequal rights are getting worse across the globe? Does he address feminist claims that women are the oppressed group and how accurate they are? Mary Koss's decision to hide male rape in the CDC stats? How feminists push the idea that DV is heavily gendered and caused by toxic masculinity and patriarchal oppression? Why #killallmen is acceptable? How feminist organizations consistently oppose presumption of shared parenting?

ArthurDent4ever · 2020-06-28T13:51:15+00:00

That’s simply wrong.

All feminist organizations (the feminists who are actually doing things- watch the hands not the mouth) range from either not caring about men’s issues to actively trying to make them worse.

Most of the issues that men face with regards to domestic violence beyond it being a thing that exists, such as the lack of shelters, automatic male guilt even in cases when they are the victim or the lack of recognition that men can be victims, stem from the Duluth Model which was MADE, and continues to be supported, BY FEMINISTS. Going to have a hard time blaming that one on the patriarchy.

Even if you by onto the “real feminist” definition of the patriarchy as being just another name for the system (which you shouldn’t because even the name implies it’s really just a tactic to shame men as a whole and paint women as the victims and is just generally the ultimate extension of male hyperagency and female hypoagency) many of men’s problems are directly caused by feminism so I find the idea that feminism has anything to do with supporting men’s issues utterly laughable.

Dunkolunko · 2020-06-28T10:41:35+00:00

Looking at the list of things feminists on large have done for men

Uhhhh well they told me I should feel free to cry and wear a dress.

mewacketergi · 2020-06-28T10:41:53+00:00

I would be 100% okay with this pitch u/HumanSpinach2, were it used to change the minds of feminists who are supposed to be concerned with men's issues, but aren't. While I am not familiar with Vaush, in my experience, this argument is used to silence critics of feminism. It completely ignores the difference between the should-have-been-s and how things are (and were) in the women's movement.

If you have concerns about the future of the non-feminist men's movement, look at the 'slib. How much did they accomplish for men? Their mods are on record apologizing to a female rapist for her emotionally bad experience while raping a man, banning a male rape victim for being anti-feminist, and viciously silencing any pro-male argument that could hypothetically cast doubt on the holy cow status of feminism. (I could go on, or look up more examples, but you probably already get the idea.) And... and the MensLib also started a weekly free talk thread where men can vent about their mental health issues, which I guess is kind of nice.

Is this a right way forward overall? I doubt it.

And don't just take my word for it – look at the writings outputted by the most prolific and public pro-feminist men, who also claim to be passionately pro-men. Take Michael Kimmel, or Michael Kaufmann: how much time do they spend selling feminism to people versus working on making any legitimate men's issue known? (EDIT: They did, however, repeatedly bash the father's movement as illegitimate and unnecessary due to some of its people hypothetically being anti-feminists...)

There is no way forward for the men's movement while remaining within the warped mainstream feminist paradigm that discounts our humanity. If you go the 'slib route, maybe you can shift the Overton Window a little easier, but your concern for men will always be framed like the safety policy at the Burning Man festival: "Safety Third."

a-man-from-earth · 2020-06-28T10:48:51+00:00

I don't understand why anyone gives Vaush any attention.

PsychoPhilosopher · 2020-06-28T10:16:09+00:00

For the last part...

Feminist success has been pretty weak without legislative support on even their core ideological wish list.

We're better off with men advocating for men in a solution focused, clear headed manner.

omegaphallic · 2020-06-28T12:45:42+00:00

Back in in 2015 just before I became an MRA and was a feminist just learning about the MRM I thought that the MRM was just another form of feminism. Boy was I fucking wrong. I tried to talk the feminists I knew into reaching out and working with MRAs. Did NOT go well. They had no interest in peaceful coexistence never mind working towards equality with the MRM. Eventually I looked deeper into the MRM and learned that ita very different then feminism, alot less totalarian in nature, much more culturally libertarian both on the right and left of the MRM. The feminists I knew only wanted total war against the MRM, because the MRM threatens their cultural dominance and their unfair advantages.

bkrugby78 · 2020-06-28T12:20:26+00:00

I've never watched this guy before. I know he exists but I guess I felt like I already had enough left leaning people on my YT feed that adding another would be overkill. But to be honest, I like his presentation style, so maybe I will follow along on some of his points.

When his gf came in and talked about the "Survivor March" and their treatment of men who were raped, I think that is probably the big thing that stuck out for me. Now is that a reflection of Feminism as a whole? Maybe. Maybe not. But the fact that those women claimed to be feminists and behaved in that way, says that it's not this perfect thing (not that I would say it's perfect).

The claim that Feminists (Intersectional Feminists) make is that Feminism is about equal rights for everyone. Ok. So if that is indeed the claim, then, when a man comes into a traditional feminist space and says "I'm a survivor" they should be believed as well, and given an equal not subservient place in the community. Like "Oh, I am sorry that happened to you, we're here to listen" kind of thing. As opposed to the "well actually most women get raped oh and false rape accusations only occur 9% of the time" (or whatever number they cite). Which, sounds oddly familiar to other dismissive arguments. Like when people talk about BLACK LIVES MATTER and then someone says "Well, actually, black on black crime is really bad blah blah." Like it's a similar thought process which says "this person claims to be a victim, but their narrative contradicts mine, so I am going to find something that supports my claim, so I can dismiss this person's view, even though all they are looking for most likely is just someone to support and listen to them."

I do not consider myself a feminist mind you. I lean more towards the idea of Egalitarianism which literally means the equality of the sexes. Whether the political version of that actually expresses the idea I do not know, but I guess I could say I subscribe to the ideology of it. So feminists that say feminism is about equality, there will probably be a lot of overlap in certain ideas we have regarding men. The difference for me likes in the application of the problems. Feminists and MF's (ie Menslib) say that Feminism is best to address men's issues. I disagree, mostly since I think that Feminists can not specifically address men's issues since they primarily exist to serve women, and well, controversial take here, Men and Women are DIFFERENT.

Sure, men's and feminist groups can collab and share ideas, develop strategies that may or may not work. Maybe women do a women's weekend where they go off and do something together and create a bonding experience. I don't know. But the things he addresses, Toxic Feminity, it does exist and it is a thing. Women are not victims by default. The victim mentality, to me, seems to go against what Feminism claims it is about and yet, this is often seen as being "misogynist."

azazelcrowley · 2020-06-28T13:25:36+00:00

"The British government cares about the Irish now. That we've treated like like shit historically is no reason for them to have independence, even though they declared it long before we decided to stop being dickheads.".

Not your choice to make mate.

YuenHsiaoTieng · 2020-06-28T21:00:51+00:00

I've seen very little of him, but it all screams identitarian sjw. I'm not subjecting myself to any more of that just to research him further.

romulusnr · 2020-06-28T10:06:48+00:00

Or he's saying that 3W should be addressing these things since they stem from the same root of the things 3W says it opposes.

bkrugby78 · 2020-06-28T11:18:17+00:00

What is the name of the video? I 'd rather watch it and draw my own conclusions.

manbaby1769 · 2020-06-28T18:50:54+00:00

Feminism in theory would include men’s issues, but in practice they are always shut out

Jakeybaby125 · 2020-06-28T11:15:18+00:00

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