What do you think about universal basic income?

Ricky584 · 2020-09-14T15:49:13+00:00

Communist bullshit.

shitfren · 2020-09-14T15:40:04+00:00

Nice in theory but would probable never work in action. Only the fact that people are stupid and wouldn't know what to do with all this free time (imo crime would skyrocket after a short time) is enough to make it a terrible idea.

A system like this would only work with extreme regulations which would defeat the purpose of it.

Things like this only work in a small environment but not in a great scale cause people will fuck it up 100%.

FairlyWhelmed · 2020-09-14T15:46:02+00:00

Since UBI and similar schemes (e.g., all state-run "welfare" programs) necessitate coercive expropriation, they are inherently unethical and inhumane. I oppose them.

8PotPrimo · 2020-09-14T15:58:22+00:00

UBI eliminates the need for numerous social programs, and frees up potentially millions of government workers getting paid to administer them. It reduces waste and could potentially be a huge boon for both national production and the creation of small businesses.

It's certainly better than the loophole driven system that we have, which deincentivizes people from going out and doing more. A system (our current one) that makes you question whether working more hours might tank your benefits is a stupid one. UBI eliminates this problem and incentivizes people to do more because they won't lose their UBI.

Ideally you don't need these types of failsafes, but reality has proven otherwise.

Talksaboutjobs · 2020-09-14T15:57:00+00:00

Well, acording to classic liberalism it is better than having public schools, public hospital and the like. So I'm inclined to say that I'm for it, but only if everything else ceased to exist. And I think that only net tax payers should vote, so anyone living off only of UBI should not have a vote.

2020-09-14T18:25:34+00:00

Stupid, will never work.

A human is like water, 80% always just take the path of least resistance.

They also tested it in a practical setting. And yep, people basically stopped working and became lazy. They didn't even do anything creative, just waste time on nothing.

Also, it would drop the value of your currency by so much that it would actually bankrupt your country.

To give a simple example, who will do the garbage collecting, MacDonald, pizza delivery, cleaning, toilet cleaning, etc... In order to get people for that, you will have to give A LOT more money in order to get employees, which would increase the burger price by 3-4 times the price. So instead a burger costing 5$ it would be 15$. => currency value drops ASTRONOMICALLY.

Edit: So that UBI you are getting would basically become void. If you would get a ubi of 500$ it would become the same value as what is 50$ now.

TheWidestOfEyes · 2020-09-14T16:31:50+00:00

Pointless Robin Hood wealth redistribution bullshit. Welfare programs just hike up taxes on higher brackets and deincentivize upward movement. The USA (and every other country) experienced the highest levels of wealth before mass welfare programs and government meddling in the economy. The more legislation, the more bureaucracy, the more the government gets involved in the free market, the quicker things stagnate and the quicker profits sink. Right now, the upper brackets in the US will see the federal government taking over 40% of your income. It's an absolute joke. And people want to see that increased to 50 or 60 or even higher, and have it be given to a bunch of people who haven't earned it. People who will just lead off the system like they've been doing before. Nothing worse than Robin Hood policies.

TigPlaze · 2020-09-14T20:15:51+00:00

I find it less than convincing. What if the government gave everyone 10K per year to bump incomes up so that they're all living wages? Sounds great on paper, but here's what I suspect would happen. Some company that normally pays 55K per year for a position would then know that they only need to pay 45K because the employee will get the remaining 10K from the government. Plus, they know they're paying taxes to support that 10K bump-up, so why would they keep paying what they were before? Other people who have found a cheap way to live, with their parents, in an RV, etc., may just decide to get by on just the 10K and not work. So then you have a bunch of people not adding to the GDP. Sounds like a recipe for trashing the economy to me.

Think-notlikedasheep · 2020-09-14T15:45:12+00:00

The UBI has a dehumanizing philosophy behind it. They won't deal with that.

Also, there will be tons of crony enrichment. All big government programs do this.

wouldgoagain · 2020-09-14T16:54:16+00:00

I would argue in favor of UBI. There's a fuck ton of "make work" in corporate America. I'd pay the people who gravitate to those jobs to stay home and out of my hair.

Lugidori · 2020-09-14T18:23:32+00:00

Whatever they decide to calling it, better come up with something soon because the current system is not sustainable.

Ody_ssey · 2020-09-14T18:39:50+00:00

Most women support UBI as obvious.

greyman0425 · 2020-09-14T19:02:18+00:00

Funny how getting a job have moved to making women dependent on men.

UBI only makes sense in a deflationary environment and you have whole segments of the economy obliterated.

Other than in that specific circumstance it is a inflationary vote buying scheme that you and I have to pay for.

At some point UBI will stop being universal and will become limited based on income or sex. You don't need it you are a man who can get a job. You make enough money you don't need UBI.

If they really want to be subtle about it. Child support will come out of UBI. There is nothing in place to prevent courts from making child support the current amount plus 100% of the UBI. The government is likely to implement VAT taxes on products that are generally male orientated, Beer, Liquor, hardware tools, video games, subscriptions to sports apps and channels, porn.

Those changes will eat away any benefit and then some of the UBI for you and I.

ElectricalCost0 · 2020-09-14T16:28:16+00:00

Anyone selling dope wholeheartedly endorses UBI. Any other purveyor of illicit goods or services also feels this way.

If they want to institute UBI, it has to come with a condition of so many hours of labour for the state, like picking up garbage, entertaining hospital residents, painting municipal buildings whatever. No free lunch.

TeddyMGTOW · 2020-09-14T16:44:38+00:00

I joked to my coworker UBI was coming, he's not up on current news, head in the sand kinda guy. He asks what is it. I say that's where the government pays you just enough to say at home. You will probably have enough money to pay your rent, shop at walmart and have Netflix. He pauses and says, that's what I got now. lol

Megitgud · 2020-09-14T20:43:36+00:00

Nice, let us all become one big Zimbabwe/Venezuela. Here's a drawing, maybe that will help people understand.

GoodMan_Gone · 2020-09-14T22:08:36+00:00

The idea is nice. But so is the idea of communism. I don't see UBI working IRL. I live in a welfare state and already parasites who refuse to work, holding up their hand and hating my country are annoying the shit out of me.

eviljammies · 2020-09-14T22:31:24+00:00

Government intervention sucks. Ancapistan now!

selfism_mike · 2020-09-14T22:38:02+00:00

On the fence regarding that, but it is not a simple problem.

For example, the social services system is a huge and expensive apparatus, which could be largely reduced under UBI. No government buildings for the distribution of goods and free services anymore, no unemployment offices, no paper war to become eligible for some social security payments, but also no social security fraud anymore, which goes in the billions each year.

Also, if more and more work is getting automated, and with emerging AI even non-trivial jobs become subject to that, it is feasible to think that companies will try to replace employees the same way on this sub there is talk about replacing women with AI love dolls and artificial wombs.

At that point societies will have better figured out how to provide for their population or there will be rioting and destruction like never before.

Regardless whether one is offended by a UBI or not, it is definitely an interesting logistical problem. For example, I knew a woman who had discipline problems with her 12 year old son. He didn't do shit and had an attitude. So I told her to cut his pocket money, at which point she told me he didn't get any. So per my recommendation she started to give him 5 bucks a week under the pretense that he is now old enough to learn to deal with money. Long story short, the next time he had an attitude and slammed the door, she just cut half of his money out for two weeks. He started to behave much better within a rather short time. Once people have to loose something they start to care, seems the message here, and also, they become susceptible to the threat of loosing what they have.

So the idea here is that people behave easily bad if they think they have nothing to loose. But assume the government gives you a pension (which is given to old people anyway) and if you misbehave you loose 30 to 100% of it, for a limited time up to forever. Would that motivate people to commit less crimes?

Most of our lifes we spend in jobs wasting day after day trying to stay alive, desperately saving for retirement. Most of us never really do what we want to do. Most philosophers, artist, even many scientists, could only live their creative lifes because they had some, even if just moderate, family fortune.

Would people become kinder to each other if the worry about loosing everything because you lost your job, or you got sick or old, would be eliviated?

If one had a regular income, would that provide protection from the need to join doubtful company and get lured into shady businesses? Maybe the UBI would put a significant dent into organized crime.

But what effect would that have on low paying jobs? Assuming the UBI is really for everyone equally and not affected by ones income, would people still attend those jobs and so make additional money? Or would most people not bother? And if everyone would indeed do the same thing before UBI after UBI would prizes not adapt and wipe the value the UBI added out within a few years? So if so, then those who do not work in addition to their BI, will be poorer after UBI than before.

Again, I am not sure what to think off it. I certainly do not feel that it necessarily is socialism, because even the capitalist system permanently deploys measures to prevent people slipping through the cracks, so doing at huge expense a patchwork job. UBI would just lay down a carpet, and people could walk more safely. Which is also the reason that societies formed in the first place, namely for the purpose of people having safer and more profitable lifes.

plainnsimpleforever · 2020-09-14T23:55:03+00:00

In 1905, US Steel became the 1st company with a market-cap of $1B. It took 350,000 employees for it to get there; all good paying jobs which supported their families. Now Snapchat has a market-cap of $25B with only 300 employees.

Something has to give. Nothing comes for free. The inequality in wealth is staggering and under the current laws will only get worse due to AI, automation, and robotics. The fact that 24% of US children live in households below the poverty line shows how ugly the current disparity is. Capitalism is fine as long as the well-being of the nation's people is the priority.

So either you tax the rich, or tax corporations based on the number of people they employ in an inverse relation to revenue, or provide free education so that able-bodied people can get the boost they need, or you provide a UBI welfare system which is more efficient and simpler to administer. Or a mix of the above.

If people are fine with Bezos worth being $200B with Amazon paying basically no tax, and AI coming to undermine most industries, then what are the solutions so that people can survive and not riot?

LouRawls_631 · 2020-09-15T01:40:20+00:00

GDP in the US is 23 trillion dollars, making the GDP per capita 60,000$. However only around 50% of the population is employed. Average salary for a white family is 89,000$ or something which means that per adult head is 45,000$. I think overall income makes up only 20% of GDP if not less. In other words, yes we can afford a UBI and we should because it would improve buying power and increase the prosperity of people and increase socio-economic mobility. UBI of 1,000$ monthly to each and every 320 million Americans would cost around 384 billion dollars yearly, about 1/26 of the GDP. Perhaps we can just cut the military budget in half lol, 750 billion divided by 2 equals 325 billion$

Joroda · 2020-09-15T01:44:57+00:00

It's the gateway drug to communism. The only way to keep prices from skyrocketing in response to UBI would be price controls on absolutely everything. What the advocates of UBI fail to understand is that socialism caused the problems that they blame on capitalism. Implementing more of the problem is not going to solve the problem.

LuvMeTendieLuvMeTrue · 2020-09-15T07:44:28+00:00

All forms of communism will be met with violence.

johntheother · 2020-09-15T11:30:31+00:00

It's a policy designed to flatter and pander to greedy people - and when implemented will collapse the economy - because it ignored the market value of labour.

talus_slope · 2020-09-14T18:30:42+00:00

The problem is it will not replace all the other assistance programs, it will just add to them. Also, whatever level it starts at will only be ratcheted up.

The media will always find a sob story about someone on the fringe, and the politicians will gain votes by promising to increase the dole.

Aprilia_rs125 · 2020-09-14T19:24:26+00:00

My father grew up in a communist country. He told me that everyone had to work and got the same money the productivity went down. If we get universal income the already lazy youth will do absolutely nothing and will still be paid

OldRoad · 2020-09-14T19:25:46+00:00

Let's talk in theory. Let's say that someday automation becomes so advanced that enough consumer products and services can be produced by only 1% of the people working. But how do you get money from the businesses to the consumers so that they can buy the products? There wouldn't be anywhere near enough jobs for everyone, and the imbalance in the labor market would likely mean that what jobs that did exist would be highly underpaid for the value produced. If nothing were done in this situation, without payments of some sort to the public, to circulate money into the hands of the public, people would be forced to basically go to growing their own food and otherwise providing for themselves. The businesses would be incredibly productive but no reason to operate because of no demand (public has almost no money to spend).

In this theoretical situation, basic income serves the role of circulating money.

However, I don't believe we are anywhere near that situation these days. Let's try bringing labor back into each country that is consuming the goods produced. If we did that, I expect lots of circulation of money within countries. The idea of countries not making the products that they consume does not make common sense; you don't get something for nothing. It's not believable that this situation continues over a long period of time.

Bring labor demand back home first. If automation then prevents the circulation of money, then consider basic income. I doubt we'd get to that point any time in the near future.

By the way, when you hear a city or state -- that doesn't control its own trade and currency -- doing a basic income experiment, that's just silly. They'd likely have to tax or go into debt to fund the program. They have limits to debt, particularly in that situation. Anyone paying more in, in taxes, than they are getting back, why wouldn't they just leave? Then that leaves no one to fund the program. So, I think it needs to be done at the national level, if ever done.

42252252 · 2020-09-14T19:58:32+00:00

I don't like it, don't hate it, kinda want a state like cali to do it so we can see what happens. Gov programs always underestimate how selfish and grifty people will get on something. Chances are the most desireable shit will increase in price along with cheap pseudo luxe goods, with some staples increasing. They may double down and cap rent increases since that's a big sticking point.

I just want the feds to ease off and let the states fuck around and build their utopia they want so bad. It'd be great to see Oregon go all out on progressive ideals, unrestricted, just to see how it works. Let those who disagree book it to whatever ideological ally they have elsewhere, like the MEMES say: A C C E L E R A T E T H E B A L K A N I Z A T I O N

TheBigThrowaway999 · 2020-09-14T20:35:03+00:00

If you read the sci-fi books by James S.A. Corey or watch the show The Expanse you can see just how well that works out.

I've only watched the show but my youngest kid read all the books too. So this is basically my take on it from just watching the show and listening to my kid tell me the more in depth stuff from the books.

In the fictional world all the citizens of Earth are granted UBI.... it leads to stagnation, most people are druggies or lazy. Then also it leads to the lower tier of people never being able to escape that life. There's a Catch-22 of if you're born into a UBI family you can't get a real job without education, but you're not allowed to get an education until you work a real job for a year and prove you're useful.

It basically ends up with the UBI families almost never getting off it, living a crappy standard of life, and never advancing to where they aren't a drain on society.

The only good thing I saw in the fictional world with UBI is they basically sterilize the lower classes and there's a lottery for whether you get to have kids or not so the lower population doesn't grow too much. ( That premise is in the books they don't say it it the show )

VampireGhoul · 2020-09-14T20:50:00+00:00

Universal basic income = the end of Democracy.

Deplorable_X · 2020-09-14T20:55:12+00:00

I would rather give them municipal cleaning jobs: parks, streets etc, than just giving them free money.

sufficientstuffup · 2020-09-14T21:32:44+00:00

This is what is happening in Alaska. www.adn.com/alaska-news/2019/09/27/this-years-alaska-permanent-fund-dividend-1606/

Social credit has been addressing this problem since the 1930's. Look it up on Wikipedia. (Not the recent Chinese version with the same name.)

soulure · 2020-09-14T22:18:17+00:00

In favor but with limits on how it can be spent - rent, food, etc. Like food stamps. So, more like basic stamps idea. Otherwise wouldn't it just go to booze, gambling, meth, and WoW subscriptions?

General_Fear · 2020-09-15T01:28:58+00:00

I prefer the Negative Tax.

First you get rid of the enter welfare state. I mean everything. Then you give every American a debit card. The government studies what middle class is. Suppose $15 an hour is middle class. Then anyone making less $15 an hour get a supplement from the government. For example, if a person makes $10 an hour. Then the government deposit $800 dollars a month into your debit card to get you to middle class.

A system like that can be run hands off by computer. And it will be cheaper than blindly writing checks to every American.

Wall_Investigator · 2020-09-15T04:40:38+00:00

Do we just start euthanizing stupid people in the future? I mean, what are we going to do with them? All the non-skilled jobs are becoming automated. At some point there will be no more jobs for these people to perform.

Nathaniel66 · 2020-09-15T09:03:46+00:00

EVERYBODY should work. Clean the streets, keep company to elders in retirement home, do even stupid jobs but know, there's notghing for free.

Giving free money only teaches society that it is possible to do nothing, demand and be given.

UBI sounds nice, but there's not even one example that it might work.

pig_tickler · 2020-09-15T09:17:38+00:00

Gold Is money. Are they giving out gold?

quixotewpg · 2020-09-15T09:44:09+00:00

This was done by theManitoba government in a town of about 8000 people for a year or two in Dauphin Manitoba in the 70’s, to see how it would work. What they found is a massive drop in crime, huge reduction in health care costs and most people kept their jobs. They found it actually saved government money, but it was scrapped because of a new party winning the election.

redsnow7777 · 2020-09-15T11:33:15+00:00

As a guy who despises working with every fiber of his soul, I can not understand how the fk is this thing still not a reality. It would be perfect and I honestly can't understand your negativity towards it. You need cars, house, expensive shit? Go ahead -- work. I don't need any of this, I just want to sleep as much as I want and not have to go somewhere for 10hrs, 5 times a week. Gimme my basic money and I will be one VERY happy person. I won't care that it will also help some whamen, blacks, whatever. It will make ME happy, so that's why I'm 100% up for it.

MGMOWNow1978 · 2020-09-15T13:16:58+00:00

Terrible idea in my opinion. Get a job.

beatstorelax · 2020-09-15T14:19:04+00:00

i like the idea,but it won't be based on some simple steps like: you won't get that money forever;get a job soon as you can!(this money is for paying your rent until that, and food). dont have more children. dont get married to someone who already receives it too: only one for house. stuff like that

2020-09-15T17:05:04+00:00

Why is this on mgtow? You guys can't picture the data in your heads. Everyone opposed to UBI feels that way from emotion not objective thought. UBI is not about welfare it's about stimulus. The same way we moved to a mixed economy after the depression for stimulus reasons, we will eventually move to ubi for the same necessity.

People should not be able to survive on UBI alone they should only have it as a way to fulfill their needs and desires when they have a minimum wage job. The economy and politics will focus on the needs of the many rather than the few.

gixxer · 2020-09-15T21:50:24+00:00

We effectively already have it, with women fucking chads then getting the government (i.e. everybody else) to support their bastard children. There was a post about it just today. UBI will be like that but on steroids. And it will implode when the simps realize en masse that they gain absolutely nothing from it.

Launch_Day_My_Dudes · 2020-09-15T22:18:35+00:00

I think it’s better than welfare because it lets us fire the hordes of useless bureaucrats whose only job is to distribute welfare.

When the system was tested in the 1960s, it achieved its objectives—people went back to school, or opened new businesses, or spent more time with their children. All laudable outcomes.

Some jobs are going to be obsolete, and not everyone is competent enough to learn to code. Better to give them some ‘fuck of’ money, since that seems to correlate with a lower birth rate.

astuteglute · 2020-09-16T01:51:19+00:00

Give me $ to do nothing???

I suppose it'd give me more time to watch it all burn.

SkylordAl · 2020-09-18T02:16:48+00:00

I'd say it could work, but it will mainly depend on the culture.

I say this because on places where self-reliance and individual responsibility are lauded upon, welfare programs such as UBI are usually the last resort, and it is shameful for people to rely upon them as their only source of income. Most people in such a culture will rarely rely only on UBI, and would consider it a point of shame if they do so for an extended period of time.

On the other hand, places that have a molly-coddling, ego-driven, and irresponsible culture, such as the ones we have in the modern day West, will cause these programs to fail, as people feel entitled to these benefits, thus they will use and abuse it as they feel its their right to do so, causing the whole system to fail spectacularly.

This is why on certain countries in Europe and also in Japan they are able to make sociallized medicine somewhat sustainable to the point that they're used as examples by leftist progressives to promote more socialized healthcare in the US, as peoples' cultures in those places dictate that they should act more responsible and should only avail of socialized medical services when they actually need it, not when they feel they need it or want it.

Whereas in Canada and in the UK, these same socialized systems are barely working and have become limited in scope and efficacy since more people are clogging up the system and are abusing it. While its usually the same people who use and abuse the system, the proportion of people who do so are much, much more since the culture empowers them to do so.

CoinSwapTrader · 2020-09-14T15:49:13+00:00

Universal basic income will eliminate the shame with being on welfare...which is important to ensure people stay productive...the welfare stigma is enough to keep most people off welfare!

catch-a-penny · 2020-09-14T16:55:49+00:00

The only way UBI could work is if/when fusion power becomes a reality and it basically costs next to nothing to heat/cool/power electronics etc.. At that point it would become an easy choice to ensure that very basic needs are met for all. Though it would have to be a flat rate 100% across the board from billionaire to pauper.

Even then though, there will always be those who think that they have a right to luxury stuff without having to work for it, and who knows what effect being in a post-scarcity world will do to the overall world economy.

Basically it's a pipe-dream non-starter.

2020-09-14T19:01:28+00:00

[deleted]

Title	What do you think about universal basic income?
Author	CDEDC
Upvotes	43
Comments	83
Date	September 14, 2020 3:23 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/ismyvu/what_do_you_think_about_universal_basic_income/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW/what-do-you-think-about-universal-basic-income.213795 https://theredarchive.com/post/213795

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