Feminist here...

CaptSnap · 2011-11-08T06:35:18+00:00

Some issues are gender issues. Women have political advocacy to voice their gendered concerns (NOW). Men do not. Currently many people think that feminism is egalitarian. NOW is actually considered the largest feminist organization in the US.

So what happens is when someone says they are a mensright supporter people assume they are going past equal rights and into trying to re-establish some kind of patriarchy or keep women barefoot and pregnant territory or some crap.

So first we need to recognize that feminism is NOT equal rights for everyone, it is not egalitarian. It is equal rights for women and thats what it is advocating for. And thats OK. Women need that advocacy.

But then we need to recognize that we cant fill our government with ONLY voices for women's issues. We cant just listen to one gender and ignore the other. For example theres actually a white house council for women and girls.... not men. I mean you have to wonder just how many more men need to be unemployed, out of school, homeless, incarcerated, suicided, or live fewer years before there is a council.

Lastly, it would really help if we didnt tolerate misandry anymore than we tolerate misogyny.

The animosity that exists between men's rights and women's rights is ultimately counterproductive. How can we achieve a peaceful and amicable equality if we grow to resent each other?

Lets really focus on that. Why do you think there is such animosity between men and women? Where could that have started? Heres my thoughts:

Im affiliated with a university and every year we have sexual violence seminars that tells young women that 1 out of 4 of them will be raped (in the last 5 years my university of over 40k has had 5 reported rapes/sexual assaults...that means there would have to be something like 1000 unreported rapes for every reported rape). Which is absolutely impossible...except for the new academic standard of rape which is consent cant be given while under the influence (any influence). They've been teaching that stat for nearly 20 years and for once it might possibly be technically true. Whats the point of that? Why is it prominently displayed on nearly every university's health webpage?

Its to the point now where if you want to stop "rape" on campus the best way is to prohibit alcohol then 99% of all undergraduates wont be de-facto rapists. Why would feminists advocate for something like that? Something like lowering the burden of proof to the absolute lowest possible standard? Who is really served by that?

Why is it acceptable for all the posters for domestic violence to feature men as the perpetrator? (women are more often the instigator than men but you wouldnt know that going by the media)

Why cant I be around kids? (men dont even commit the bulk of child abuse)

What if I raised kids and taught them to avoid and be wary around all women? STRANGER DANGER

Why do we, as a society, let the actions of some small minority of people, who happen to have a penis, define the gender?

What if every man everywhere suddenly treated women like they were all about to cut-off his penis? What if men staged walks across major metropolitan areas to remind women to stop mutilating men? What if we distributed posters reminding women not to falsely accuse a man of rape? To carry a whistle and blow it when she felt she was going to lose control so she could remind herself not to falsely accuse them and let any men get out of her way. See how much vitriol is in that? Why is that even remotely tolerated?

Why does it have to be that toxic? Why did feminists ever let it START with being that toxic?

We're a new movement, the animosity was here long before we got here. It is ingrained. Youll have to ask feminists why its like that.

Why we suddenly live in a world where its perfectly acceptable (even fucking celebrated) to constantly barrage that much loathing, hate and malice.

Kill_The_Rich · 2011-11-08T06:14:54+00:00

First, I'd like to say thanks for coming here and reading with an open mind, despite our PR problems. We do have some over the top MRAs, but I think the vast majority of us are reasonable people who have noticed certain problems and would like to fix them. As to whether or not MRAs and feminists can work together, well it's a bit complicated. The word "feminism" is frequently misused to mean "gender equality", but it's an ideology with certain essential beliefs (with a meaning well beyond "gender equality"). Muddying the issue even further is the fact that some people call themselves "feminists" (in a passive way -- i.e. "well, I consider myself to be a bit 'feminist'...after all I believe in equality!") without actually subscribing to (or even being completely aware of) the actual ideology. As far as I'm concerned, those people are not really feminists...they're just gender-egalitarians who have painted themselves with an unfortunate label. Can we work with those people? Absolutely; in fact, many of us were those people. However, the ideology of feminism is at odds with nearly all of the MRM.

All variants of feminism center on two claims: the first being that men and women ought to be treated equally; the second being that women, as a class, are disadvantaged in our society. These claims fundamentally couch the issue as being solved ONLY by giving women special advantages, taking advantages away from men, or some combination of both. Seeking equality is uncontroversial, but it's those other bits which place it fundamentally at odds with the very concept of "men's rights", let alone the movement.

ProWomanAntiFeminist · 2011-11-08T13:06:59+00:00

I appreciate your open-minded attitude. Seriously.

But some of us have been MRAs for a long time. I personally have been talking about these issues for nearly ten years. And I can count on two hands the number of Feminists I've come across that are genuinely interested in egalitarianism.

I have been told about a zillion times by Feminists that "Feminism is about equality for everyone" and then the minute I start (politely) citing examples of female privilege I get screamed at and called a misogynist/caveman/faggot/living in mommy's basement/40 year old virgin/rapist/rape apologist/creep/weirdo/closet homosexual.

In your opinion, how am I to find common ground with that?

2011-11-08T09:09:11+00:00

How can we achieve a peaceful and amicable equality if we grow to resent each other? Is there a way to align the two?

Like feminism, or any other social movement, political school, ideology or religion; there are multiple schools of thought in this issue. Before we could align the two, we'd need to align the different schools of feminism together to something concrete. And the different schools of masculism, men's rights etc.

I think that is unrealistic and ultimately counterproductive. Why should we try to align the branches? If we know something about our history (and nature), it's that entropy tends to increase. The attempts to control and manage existing systems tend to increase in complexity, until they become too difficult to sustain and blow up. Soviet Union thought there would need to be only one branch of political thought which was purposedly controlled "for best interests of the people and equality" by a committee.

The 3rd wave of feminism suffers from the same hegemonic clumsiness. Trying to umbrella everything "equality" under the established political system marginalizes more radical dissidence and new thoughts (e.g. men's rights). And deducting from what you've said, I think you have noticed the effect yourself.

TLDR: men's rights = good

I would not put it that way. There clearly is similar problems in MRM that there is with the establishment we are trying to disrupt. There very rarely is innately good and bad. I'd say a shift for men's rights and the disruption of the feminist-industrial-complex would be less bad than status quo - but we'd need to be damn careful to not go over the top (like feminism has and seems to go) when we'll reach our immediate goals. Some shit cultivating in the manosphere (e.g. Game, MGTOW, overtly liberal reproductive rights...) is pretty societally destructive and dangerous if taken to the max and used to hack the system. Human is not often a creature which can settle for moderate.

So what should we do? Consensus is not the holy grail! Cultivate creative destruction! Like it was clear that the 1st, 2nd or 3rd wave of feminism would not make their share of mistakes, it is bloody unlikely we'll get it right this time either. Just gotta keep the eyes open and do it better when it fails.

But congratz for the red pill!

ignatiusloyola · 2011-11-08T12:15:42+00:00

It is not clear that feminists, as a whole, are working towards equality.

In some debates, it comes down to an Opportunity versus Outcome debate of equality. The problems with Opportunity based equality is that it is weak to hidden prejudices (which can be overcome by education). The problems with Outcome based equality is that it is selectively applied (ie: equality for managers, but not equality for high risk or dirty jobs). Which one is really the equality we are searching for? Here, we think that equality of opportunity is the right way to go - no one should be inhibited from doing something they are qualified for based on their gender, but all qualifications are equally applied.

On top of that, it is clear that a number of feminist groups are actively anti-male. And while they don't have the spotlight in political circles, their writings affect the groups that do.

girlwriteswhat · 2011-11-08T05:23:38+00:00

There are many problems with mens rights and feminism working together. The first of which is the flat out refusal of many (if not most) feminists that men are oppressed (or face sexism) in any way.

For example watch these gender studies students attempt to shout down a man saying that men face sexism too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y9_oklmHvU&feature=feedlik

Another major problem is rhetoric such as male privilege, and patriarchy. It comes off as victim blaming men for their problems. While we are on the subject of privilege, if we are going to acknowledge male privilege, female privilege needs to be discussed, but many a feminist deny that any exists, at best, it is swept under the rug by calling it "benevolent sexism."

Also, movement feminists support discriminatory (and gender specific) laws such as VAWA, which are in direct opposition to equality.

TLDR; feminism, in principle, should be able to work hand in had with MRA's, but there are big pot holes in the road towards working together.

EvilPundit · 2011-11-08T06:11:01+00:00

Welcome, feminist!

While I am mostly concerned about men's rights at the moment - and somewhat angry at mainstream feminism for ignoring or attacking those rights - in the end I want to live with women on an equal and friendly basis.

To that end, I hope we can all eventually work together. However, in the short term, a bit of shouting might be required just so we men can be noticed, and considered too. :)

BinaryShadow · 2011-11-08T05:50:13+00:00

I would like to apologize for my assumptions. That was not fair, and I am sorry.

Apology accepted. Now that you are aware that we're not all misogynistic pricks looking to keep you in a cave, you might want to politely correct your sisters in other subs.

Offensive_Brute · 2011-11-08T13:10:58+00:00

Within Mens Rights there is a strong subset of which I myself am a member, that believe that feminists do not really want equality.

Why do I say that?

I say that because feminists only want to be equal to men as it benefits them. There are many negative aspects of manhood, in which feminists have no interest in sharing. I posite that you cannot relistically expect to share in the benefits and privileges if you do not equally share in the burden. Its not equality if I have to work my ass off to earn something that the government gives you for free.

memymineown · 2011-11-08T06:13:13+00:00

I do not believe that Men's Rights Activists and feminists will ever be amicable until feminists make some major concessions.

They must acknowledge that right now, in the western world, the rights of men and boys are the ones being abrogated, not women. Men and boys need someone to fight for their rights far more than women do.

They must also stop using misleading statistics and plain old lying to get their point across.

They must publicly denounce their members who have displayed overt sexism towards the male gender.

There are probably some other things as well.

I am in college and know quite a few feminists. When I talk with them one on one they are quite reasonable. We agree that Male Genital Mutilation is wrong, as is the draft and that the lifespan gap needs to be rectified. We do have some disagreements over statistics but those can easily be overcome by presenting statistics.

But our agreement is short lived. Once they get into a group or they go to another women's studies class they seem to forget everything we talked about.

Suddenly men are the evil oppressors and women are the perfect little helpless victims.

Feminists need to stop doing that.

tlann · 2011-11-08T17:01:49+00:00

Thank you for being open minded and thoughtful. There needs be more people like you on both sides.

Equa1 · 2011-11-09T00:20:24+00:00

How hard would it have been to make this gender neutral? How hard would it possibly have been to protect the genitals of little girls AND little boys? Circumcision of male infants in america alone outnumber by 10 times the prevalence of FGM in the entire world.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to all those who oppose genital mutilation, regardless of sex.

2011-11-09T00:25:03+00:00

I don't believe you are off base, I also called myself a feminist for a long while, until I saw that the word truly was biased (feminism vs. equality).

I understand and appreciate the goals many feminists are trying to reach are equality, but many fail to truly understand the "other side." To me, men's rights is the same thing. There are valid points leaning towards the masculine side. I think neither groups are truly egalitarian since there is a gendered agenda for each. And not everyone will agree with each other even in their own movement.

Personally that's why I distance myself from either and call myself egalitarian in general.

hardwarequestions · 2011-11-08T06:04:16+00:00

Welcome to the subreddit.

drinkthebleach · 2011-11-08T06:35:09+00:00

We have SO much in common. Yet we both have our little camps of trolls and hate that just bicker away with each other, making sure nothing gets done. Good to see other people not letting their group shape their views for them.

truthjusticeca · 2011-11-08T15:55:39+00:00

And finally- am I way off base here? Are men's rights and women's rights not attempting to whittle away at the same problem from different angles? Either way- I now am aware of the men's rights movement and will do my best to stay informed.

Not really, feminism has never been about equality but rather female empowerment. Paternity, child custody and feminist jurisprudence in rape laws and domestic violence are at the center of feminist power, women's privilege and ample government funding for activism. Feminists have actively opposed efforts by MRAs to achieve gender equality.

carchamp1 · 2011-11-08T14:27:03+00:00

I appreciate the sentiment. In the two years I've been on here you're one of many who have expressed similar sentiments. And, again, I appreciate it.

However, what you'll find if you make an honest assessment of the "feminist" movement is that it's NOT based on gender equality. In fact, quite the opposite is true. So-called "feminist" organizations are nothing more than hate groups using supremacy ideology to dehumanize and destroy men.

Let me give you the same challenge that I've given probably a dozen other "feminists" who've made similar statements as you. Give me just one, just one, example of a "feminist" organization that is truly working on egalitarian efforts. JUST ONE. How about a "feminist" group working on shared parenting. How about a "feminist" group working on domestic violence equality. How about a "feminist" group working on marriage/divorce reform. JUST ONE.

I'll be waiting for your response just like I'm still waiting for the others to get back to me.

2011-11-08T19:39:12+00:00

It always makes me happy to hear well balanced, smart, non-provocative people post on here or r/XX's. Thank you a ton for being one of those voices that need to be heard, not another one crying for more division.

roland3337 · 2011-11-08T19:14:47+00:00

"It seems as though feminists and men's rights activists are hoping to achieve the same thing- equality. "

Seems to me that you need to study-up on feminism more than men's rights. If you did, you'd find out that feminists have done pretty much everything possible to advance the cause of women, over men.

Was 'Equity' really on the agenda of feminism? Seems not. Not from where I'm standing.

If that were the case, I am sure that they would be doing something about the 60/40 college enrollment disparity between men and women. And that is just one of the milder problems that men face.

2011-11-08T05:20:54+00:00

Mens rights doesn't say men should do this, women should do that - it's an issues based movement not an ideology.

Essentially feminism is cheap exaggeration, stereotype and generalization from top to bottom, and that more than gender issues is what mens rights oppose.

qwerty133 · 2011-11-08T10:05:15+00:00

I really appreciated your post, gills.

altdetgoe · 2011-11-08T20:10:19+00:00

you should do a TIL on r/feminism

theozoph · 2011-11-08T21:55:01+00:00

Are men's rights and women's rights not attempting to whittle away at the same problem from different angles?

Everything you need to know about modern feminism is here.

So, thank you for having an open mind. Once you learn to recognize the prejudice that is the foundation of feminist ideology (no, it's not egalitarianism), perhaps you will take the next step toward full sanity and renounce feminism and its lies.

You need to understand that the good that came out of feminism basically stopped dead at the first wave. You know, when it was still broadly called Women's Rights and the Suffragette Movement, and wasn't yet an ideology steeped in male hatred (although the seeds were there).

The history of mankind is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations on the part of man toward woman, having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over her.

That was such a wonderful sentiment to base a campaign on... :-/

What followed (and sometime accompanied) women's march toward equal rights was nothing but a smear campaign against men which culminated in legal discrimination, social disintegration and a host of prejudices and accusations levelled against the very people who had made women's new social status possible, namely men, through technological and political advances.

From an emancipation movement, feminism has quickly grown into a cancerous tumor on society, relentlessly attacking half its population. That is why some MRAs just cannot tolerate the false view that feminism is genuinely benign, and that its ills are just the product of a few misguided souls. "Rape culture" is a third wave rallying banner, and is based on the works of Mary Daly and Andrea Dworkin, two notorious man haters. The legacy of hatred and prejudice is alive and well, as your quips about men being the primary aggressors in DV show.

It is hard to let go of prejudice, especially when everyone around you insists it's "just the truth". 60 years of feminist propaganda have distorted our views of genders beyond recognition, and the BS coming out of feminist "studies" is as unending as it is biased. Only through a complete denunciation of feminist ideology in all its forms can our society be saved from the endless gender warfare it has created.

Not all MRAs understand this, and many think people who think like me are "needlessly antagonistic", or "extremists". They just haven't really swallowed the red pill, but just sampled its flavor.

But you gills89, understand this: as long as you come here under the feminist label, you are associated with the likes of Harriet Harman, not just by me or a few MRAs, but by every public servant who wonders: "How much support, exactly, can this crazy bitch count on?"

You stand beside, and support every injustice described in my first link through that label. And the people behind that insanity count on you to keep using it, and defending it. Don't worry, they'll do the rest.

Peace.

mayonesa · 2011-11-08T16:55:05+00:00

It seems as though feminists and men's rights activists are hoping to achieve the same thing- equality.

...at the expense of whoever's on top.

AlyoshaV · 2011-11-08T06:38:18+00:00

So you've missed all the times AnnArchist has proposed murder as a solution for women, then?

misandristhere · 2011-11-08T12:12:48+00:00

Misandrist here. To the OP: You're a stupid bitch, like most of you fake, scared feminists (besides the militants). Do you really think that any of these crazy fucks give a damn about you or your opinion? Do you really think that they want equality? Are you 15 years old? These things have a deep hatred/jealousy of women and they want us dead, whether spirtually or physically. They love hearing from imbeciles like you because it just validates their opinion that women are mentally weak and will always submit to them. Don't you fucking get it? If there were no laws and they weren't afraid of going to prison they would humiliate, beat, rape, torture, murder, and eat your corpse in that order all within a matter of hours if you were left alone with them. Personally I wouldn't give two shits about these animals doing those things to the likes of you, because you are worthless and you're a traitor to our gender. Have fun in your fantasy world.

Most women are just as pathetic as you, which is why those of us who aren't have to fight just to be treated as human beings by these fucking demons.

Title	Feminist here...
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	30
Comments	92
Date	November 8, 2011 5:11 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/m4hg3/feminist_here/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminist-here.1031983 https://theredarchive.com/post/1031983

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