Is it true that false rape allegations can destroy a man's life?

aloneinlove · 2011-11-01T19:22:19+00:00

I was arguing with a feminist and she insists that such cases are a minority. Which in other words mean that most men who get falsely accused get off without...

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It was asked how often it happens. He answered. Every day someone is falsely accused, and the social and economic effects of JUST BEING ACCUSED are devastation to each and every one of them. It's a mark someone will carry for life thanks to lopsided reporting and laws on the subject. And having one's reputation restored after charges are dropped or get beat in court almost never makes the same kind of headlines. See also: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/lwtm1/news_media_often_acts_as_advocate_for_rape/

Accusers get their name withheld because "it's a special crime". If it's so damn special then why are the accused plastered all over the media? What about their rights? The stigma that comes from being accused completely goes against the principles of innocent until proven guilty.

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To this case, I have nothing but anecdotal evidence, FWIW.

I was falsely accused by my 1st girlfriend when I was 17. I never found out why. Only that she tried to later take it back, but once her family heard and word spread she was convinced she was in denial. It never went to the police, so there was no legal fallout. What did happen however was purely on a social level.

What resulted was a subtle alienation. Friends began distancing themselves, but never said why. Some would have outbursts of unexplained aggression. Likewise, I couldn't get a date again until I moved to another state. I attribute that to one supposed friend that I found out later was spreading and trying to convince people of the accusation when I wasn't around.

I recognized the pattern, but nobody acknowledged why they were doing it. I spent years replaying the events in my mind, trying to discover if I ever did anything forceful, verbally or otherwise. With so many people treating me like a criminal, I began feeling like one.

Things got better when I moved to a different state. I found new friends and life became relatively normal after about 3-5 years. However, I have severe social anxiety issues now. I'm always worrying about people judging me silently.

I wouldn't say my life has been destroyed, but it certainly hasn't gone unscathed. I don't blame the girl either. I feel she was more victimized than me when her friends and family brainwashed her into believing she had been traumatized. To me, denial had become a dirty word.

My point is, while not all cases are severe,.it may be happening more than you think. And I'm sure from her side if things, this was all just another unpunished rape. :(

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[–]deejaweej 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Oh don't worry about that. If I was trying to avoid those memories I wouldn't be in this subreddit. It's good to talk about these things. :)

I too am not sure how to address this sort of problem. We shouldn't be blind to victims, but by prematurely condemning the accused we often just create more. It's a tough problem, but so long as people are willing to keep an open mind and polite discussion I feel it is one we can all solve.

That is why I'd like to thank you. It seems like people here have been pretty hostile to you, and I'm sorry for that. Despite the caustic opinions that come up, people here seem to really want to increase visibility for the men hurt by society's reaction to rape accusations. The ones looking for a scapegoat blame feminists, but I feel alienating those with opposing views will only entrench their position. Hell, just look at politics :).

So thank you again, and please keep up the polite fight :). The rude ones are the minority (on all sides). They just speak the loudest.

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[–]girlwriteswhat 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

The most often-cited by feminist study on false rape reporting puts the number at 6%. That was out of a huge pile of unfounded or unprovable cases. That study investigated each report and made a finding of false reporting only if that report met a beyond a reasonable doubt standard of being false--in other words, it deemed a report false only if it would have resulted in a conviction in a criminal court. The rest remained unfounded either way--not enough evidence to prove them true or false.

Right now, about 6% of reported rapes result in conviction.

So that other 88% of cases? It would be as idiotic to assume that all of those cases were actual rapes that actually happened because they could not be proven false as it would be to assume they were all false reports because they could not be proven to be rapes.

Feminists love to throw all those 88% of cases back in the big bucket of rapes we assume actually happened. Yet you won't find a single MRA out there who'd say that only 6% of rape reports are actual rapes. So who's the side with the bias in this discussion?

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[–]girlwriteswhat 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Lisak had a finding of 5.9%, IIRC. His methodology was as I outlined, and he's the one I keep having quoted at me by feminists.

What he found was that 5.9% of reports were definitively false. In the same way that 6% of reports are definitively true (going by attrition rates--reports that result in conviction). Regardless of whether it's 6 or 8%, feminists like to claim that only 6%/8% of rape accusations are false, when the truth is, at least 6%/8% of accusations are false. Would any MRA ever claim that only 6% of rape claims are true because that's the percentage that can be proven true, and the rest are false? Yet we see this kind of thinking all the time with feminists when it comes to false accusations.

Feminists want to change the legal process based on the assumption that MORE than the 6% of provable rape reports are true (which is a sound assumption), combined with the assumption that NO MORE than 6-8% of reports are false (which is so fucking absurd that I almost can't credit all of feminism as having a single brain to share between them).

I see no reason to believe that Kanin's 41% study was as unreliable as feminists insist it is. They take issue with its use of polygraph testing, because polygraphs are unreliable--so unreliable that they're not admissible in court, ZOMG. However, they are quantifiably unreliable across larger test populations--the number I hear most often is 85% accuracy. That's way too low a standard for a criminal court on a single-case basis, but totally accountable for in a study of dozens or hundreds of cases. I don't think that it's unreasonable to believe, then, that 41% of accusations plus or minus a 15% margin of error are false.

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It depends entirely on the circumstances and whoever investigates the false claim.

The feminist viewpoint, that a rape allegation should be automatically escalated into a guilty verdict without consideration, is the problem. Such a thing would be difficult to enact in the U.S Legal system (people have tried though, believe me), unfortunately the same is easily installed in these so-called "campus conduct hearings", where the current political agenda of the United States Department of Education's leadership now orders these "hearings" to be little more than a Soviet-era show trial, lest said institution be on the receiving end of a multimillion dollar lawsuit.

False allegations of a ANY type of serious crime can be devastating to the accused. One of my family members was recently involved in the legal defense of a man who was accused of being a member of some type of cocaine distribution ring. The only real evidence against him were the words of a career criminal who was seeking a reduction of his own sentence and a false confession the police more or less literally beat out of him. Fortunately, the judge suppressed the man's confession and he was ultimately acquitted, but only after he had spent almost a year in prison. Even though his record is now clean he probably lost his job and this disrupted his relationship with his family, to say the least.

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Even if we were to accept that 40% of rape accusations are false, which I concede is entirely possible, not all of those are malicious. Malicious means that the accuser makes an accusation specifically to bring harm to a man.

A lot of accusations are of the "problem-solving" variety. They're made to provide alibis, explain unplanned pregnancies, keep people from thinking she's promiscuous, or cover up adultery, etc. The harm done to the accused is collateral damage in these cases--the primary goal of the woman is to get herself out of a sticky situation. In those cases, the accuser usually makes the accusation first to a friend, partner or family member (whoever requires the alibi), and often times that other person persuades her to report it to the authorities.

It's THOSE cases that I almost feel are the more problematic as far as gender issues go, because it exploits societal views of males as disposable. She sees him not as a human being but as an object to be used and sacrificed to achieve an end. She doesn't want to harm him, but she's perfectly willing to do so for her own benefit.

[–]Anthony_Zarat 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You are right. Unfortunately, I am too angry to care.

If I were less angry, I would also point out that a huge part of the 40% comes from differential expectations.

When one partner thinks that consensual intimacy between two inebriated people means that the man needs to go to jail, this is a misunderstanding intentionally engineered by feminists.
When one partner thinks that intimacy implies the beginning of a committed relationship, and falsely accuses the other partner after being "dumped", this is malicious.

Both happen, but the second is probably more likely.

Again, I don't care. If courts enforced presumption of innocence for everyone, men would not care either. However, courts presume all males to be perpetrators, and all females to be victims. Hence, the numerical reality does not really matter to me. Only the bigotry matters to me.

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any false accusation is guaranteed to ruin a man's life?

It's not guaranteed. Same as hitting a tree while driving at 60mph is not guaranteed to kill you, but you still don't want to hit it because possibility is high.

The problem with statistics is that these things are not collected by anyone. No official institution cares about that. All they care is "Not guilty, case dismissed, now leave." What happens afterwards is not important to them. It's not important to media either, because publishing such a study would almost definitely cause an outrage, publisher would be called a misogynist asshole, reputation would be ruined and so on.

Now why is r/mensrights so convinced that this happens? Because we have some real life examples right here. If you would read a bit, you would see that this is not a one or two isolated cases, women accuse men all the time. Being accused (but before the court hearing) is a hell, since most people assume that accused man is guilty, women try to be as far away from him as possible (He's a rapist!) and all intelligent people just try to ignore the man, since hey, he committed a crime, didn't he? I mean, why would any woman lie about being raped, right?

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Because we have some real life examples right here. If you would read a bit, you would see that this is not a one or two isolated cases, women accuse men all the time.

And this is what I was referring to when I complained about /mensrights' cognitive bias. Your attitude towards false allegations is that "they ruin someone's life EVERY DAY so the problem must RAMPANT."

Funnily enough, rape also ruins someone's life every day. And yet the general attitude towards rape in /mensrights is rather more skeptical. "Rape is extremely uncommon". "Rape hysteria has been manufactured by the media". "Women have been trained to be paranoid about rape". You guys are so easily taken in by numbers - but only when it suits your agenda. When it doesn't, nothing in the world will convince you - not personal testimonies, not news reports, not statistics, not anything.

[–]Airazz1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh so that's what this is all about? We don't think that all men are potential rapists, so we must all be evil, heartless bastards? How very sweet of you.

Funnily enough, rape also ruins someone's life every day.

OK fine, what does it have to do with false rape accusations?

And yet the general attitude towards rape in /mensrights is rather more skeptical.

That's not good. Yet again, what does it have to do with false rape?

You guys are so easily taken in by numbers - but only when it suits your agenda.

Wait, disliking women who ruin lives for their own personal gain is agenda? What is this, some sort of game for you?

When it doesn't, nothing in the world will convince you - not personal testimonies, not news reports, not statistics, not anything.

Show me personal testimonies, news reports, statistics or anything else, proving that having "Rapist" label is not going to negatively affect one's life.

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh so that's what this is all about? We don't think that all men are potential rapists, so we must all be evil, heartless bastards? How very sweet of you.

God almighty, here we go again. I think rape is a problem; therefore I think "all men are potential rapists". I doubt that ruinous false allegations are as common as you suggest; therefore I'm denying that they even occur. There's no middle ground with you guys, is there? It’s all binary.

OK fine, what does it have to do with false rape accusations?

Nothing. I am using it as an example to highlight the inconsistency with which /mensrights applies its critical brain. You guys see a few hundred news stories about men being hurt by false allegations, and this somehow is enough to damn the entirety of all western legal systems in your eyes. Ten times the number of stories about rape won't convince most of you that rape might be a problem of anywhere near a similar magnitude. You draw your conclusions first, and then go out looking for evidence to support them.

Wait, disliking women who ruin lives for their own personal gain is agenda?

Not in itself, no. But /mensrights is a political group, and political groups pretty much by definition always have an agenda.

Show me personal testimonies, news reports, statistics or anything else, proving that having "Rapist" label is not going to negatively affect one's life.

WHERE DID I SAY IT DOESN'T? Jesus Christ, you people just have no conception of nuance, do you?

[–]Airazz1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You guys see a few hundred news stories about men being hurt by false allegations, and this somehow is enough to damn the entirety of all western legal systems in your eyes.

Yes.

Ten times the number of stories about rape won't convince most of you that rape might be a problem of anywhere near a similar magnitude.

Where did I say that rape is not a problem? You complain a lot about our way of thinking, but you don't really realize that you think exactly the same, but from the other side.

You see, for you a few hundred ruined lives might look a funny, insignificant number. However we here are humans, we don't think that hundreds of men simply do not matter.

My point is, men are constantly falsely accused of rape (not women though. Funny, isn't it?), this ruins their lives and no one here likes that. It doesn't matter if it's hundreds, thousands or millions. It's a fact that it happens and it happens often enough to be visible. The saddest bit is that women rarely pay the price for committing this crime. For them it's quite easy to accuse someone, since there are just two possible outcomes: either the man will go to jail for many years and his life will definitely be ruined, or he will be found not guilty, woman will get a few hours of public service and man's life will still most likely be ruined. Win-win for her, isn't it?

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Where did I say that rape is not a problem?

You didn't. But /mensrights in general does take the view that womens' fear of rape is largely unwarranted.

you don't really realize that you think exactly the same, but from the other side.

But I DO REALIZE IT. I have my own biases, and I am aware of that. My point is that /mensrights demonstrates little to no awareness of it's own fallibility. People here state opinions as though they were facts; and become wildly agitated when an outsider questions the veracity of those "facts". Which is precisely what has transpired in this thread.

You see, for you a few hundred ruined lives might look a funny, insignificant number. However we here are humans, we don't think that hundreds of men simply do not matter.

I DON'T THINK THAT EITHER. Trying to hash out a roughly accurate figure for a problem isn’t the same as denying that problem.

My point is, men are constantly falsely accused of rape

"Constantly". You use this ambiguous word which has a broad, sweeping, universal feel to it. Lightning is always striking somewhere in the world - does this mean that lighting strikes "constantly"? Sure. But phrasing it that way implies something rather different from the truth. All manner of statistically negligible things are happening constantly, on account of the sheer size of the world we inhabit. Saying that something happens constantly isn’t really a meaningful statement.

It's a fact that it happens and it happens often enough to be visible.

Death by spontaneous combustion happens enough to be visible. In the digital age, visibility is no indication of prevalence.

[–]hopeless_case1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"Rape is extremely uncommon". "Rape hysteria has been manufactured by the media". "Women have been trained to be paranoid about rape".

What someone means by saying any of those things depends a lot on when they say them. For example, I would have said those things during a discussion of Elevator Gate to a Rebecca Watson fan. I would also be inclined to say those things to anyone defending the Dear Colleague letter that instructs collages to lower the burden of proof in sexual assault proceedings to 'preponderance of the evidence' (or who advocates any of the other clearly unfair things collages routinely do in handling those cases, like allowing the accuser to appeal a decision, or not allowing the accused to confront the accuser during the proceedings, ...).

In other words, rape is not so prevalent that men should take it on themselves to avoid being in an elevator alone with a woman they don't know at a hotel to prevent her getting anxious, and it is not so prevalent as to warrant the absurd violations of the rights of the accused that collage campuses have instituted.

Wouldn't you agree?

If you would like to provide a link to a comment saying one of those things where you thought the context was unfair, I'd be happy to give you my opinion.

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's funny that you should mention Elevatorgate since that's my personal cause célèbre (and very likely to result in an extremely protracted discussion, I'm afraid). I agree that no man should take it upon himself to avoid being alone in an elevator with a woman he doesn't know; and I don't believe that was Skepchick's point, either. However, it is my opinion that a man who found himself in such a position should consider that many women will find this situation implicitly threatening; and perhaps avoid making comments that are likely to exacerbate the woman's possible anxiety. I agree that the likelihood of a rape occurring at any particular moment is always low; however, I would imagine the risk is rather more substantial for a woman who is alone in an elevator with a strange man at 4am than it is in other public situations.

Another point is that Skepchick's anxiety wasn't actually predicated on any statistical analysis of the situation, because that isn't how anxiety works. The fight or flight response takes place in the animal brain, which is impervious to reason; and being alone, at night, with a stranger who has expressed sexual interest in you will make most women feel uncomfortable whether they are in real danger or not.

More relevant to the current discussion is the fact that, even by conservative estimates, actual rapes outnumber false rape allegations by a significant margin. I don't understand why the /mensrights fixation on false allegations is sane and reasonable, but the people who defend Skepchick are promoting "rape hysteria"?

[–]hopeless_case1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Another point is that Skepchick's anxiety wasn't actually predicated on any statistical analysis of the situation, because that isn't how anxiety works. The fight or flight response takes place in the animal brain, which is impervious to reason; and being alone, at night, with a stranger who has expressed sexual interest in you will make most women feel uncomfortable whether they are in real danger or not

I think what we are anxious about is a result of what we think the likelihoods are, and that societies anxieties change as awareness of / education about likelihoods changes.

Men are the victims of 3/4 of all assaults, yet women are much more anxious about being assaulted than men are. I think there are 2 things going on here. Women are brought up to think of themselves as more vulnerable than they really are, and men are brought up to think of themselves as less vulnerable than they really are.

More relevant to the current discussion is the fact that, even by conservative estimates, actual rapes outnumber false rape allegations by a significant margin. I don't understand why the /mensrights fixation on false allegations is sane and reasonable, but the people who defend Skepchick are promoting "rape hysteria"?

One reason we pay so much attention to false rape allegations is that, in the name of upping conviction rates, the rights of the criminally accused were dismantled over time (in cases of rape). Another reason is that placing an innocent person in jail is much worse for the cause of justice than letting a guilty person go free.

So even if false allegations occur at one tenth the rate that true allegations do, they are still a serious problem, and certainly not an excuse to dismantle the rights of the criminally accused.

I think false allegations likely occur at one fourth the rate of true allegations (I base this on the FBI's report showing that in 1 of 4 DNA tests where a result is obtained, the result clears the accused).

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think what we are anxious about is a result of what we think the likelihoods are, and that societies anxieties change as awareness of / education about likelihoods changes.

I don't think that’s even vaguely true. I know the likelihood of Slenderman assaulting me is literally zero; but I still feel extremely anxious about it whenever I'm walking around my house late at night. Conversely, when I’m in a moving car I’m actually in enormous danger; and yet I hardly ever feel anxious in that situation, regardless of all the "education" I've received telling me I should.

This is what I don't get about anti-Watson rhetoric. It’s predicated on this insane assumption that people are perfectly rational all the time. Those who tout it use it to ridicule social conventions which correctly acknowledge the fact that nobody is rational all the time, and we shouldn't expect them to be.

Men are the victims of 3/4 of all assaults, yet women are much more anxious about being assaulted than men are.

I’m pretty sure women are the victims in the majority of sexual assaults.

One reason we pay so much attention to false rape allegations is that, in the name of upping conviction rates, the rights of the criminally accused were dismantled over time (in cases of rape). Another reason is that placing an innocent person in jail is much worse for the cause of justice than letting a guilty person go free.

I don’t really agree that the majority of measures you’re referring to actually result in innocent men going to prison when they otherwise wouldn’t.

I think false allegations likely occur at one fourth the rate of true allegations (I base this on the FBI's report showing that in 1 of 4 DNA tests where a result is obtained, the result clears the accused).

That’s quite an assumption. You sure that none of those were actual rapes in which the wrong man was implicated through no fault of the victim’s?

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false rape accusations are a significant problem

This is the assumption that I was trying to highlight. What I said to aloneinlove, in the comment that inspired this thread, is that MRA culture creates the notion that false allegations are a significant problem by focusing intently on the ones that ruin lives; with no consideration for how widely dispersed these cases actually are.

The same might said about feminists and rape – but there does, at least, exist hard statistical evidence demonstrating that rape is actually an endemic problem in almost every culture. No such evidence exists on the subject of false allegations, AFAIK. And yet the assumption that any woman can ruin any man’s life just by pointing her finger is never questioned by MRAs. This is my major gripe with the MRA movement - there is no self-doubt, no critical thinking whatsoever.

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Yea we both have no evidence as to who is right whatsoever. You can stand behind the defence "I didn't say that" all day, but it just doesn't prove you right at all when you said you don't think men getting screwed over by false rape allegations is true.

However, hardwarequestions made a great point, which is even one man getting falsely accused of rape is too many. It might not justify the "overdrammatic" false rape culture you were so interested in discussing with Sigi1, but in the current climate of rape accusations, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that the man's name often get exposed before he's even convicted, and this fact alone ruins his reputation and his future. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? That's why I still think there is a legitimacy to the MRM with regards to this.

[–]HarrietPotter0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yea we both have no evidence as to who is right whatsoever.

Why then are you so convinced that I am the deluded hypocrite and you the clear-eyed rationalist?

However, hardwarequestions made a great point, which is even one man getting falsely accused of rape is too many.

Even one woman being raped is too many. So?

It might not justify the "overdrammatic" false rape culture you were so interested in discussing with Sigi1, but in the current climate of rape accusations

This is exactly what I was referring to. You are preselecting data points according to your own criteria and extrapolating them into a picture of a "climate". You don't have a picture of a "climate". You have data; and no means at all for establishing how meaningful it actually is.

there's plenty of evidence to suggest that the man's name often get exposed before he's even convicted, and this fact alone ruins his reputation and his future. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? That's why I still think there is a legitimacy to the MRM with regards to this.

It's worth talking about, I agree. But not if you're going to write off everyone who disputes your assumptions as a "fucking hypocrite".

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I'm here, aren't I?

Dismissing anything that could be said on this board without even hearing it first. The fact you show up on a board dedicated to views opposing your own has no bearing in your mental disposition regarding the acceptance of those views. From what I can see, you've come here following aloneinlove to lecture him on where to get his sources. Others come here to troll (I'm not saying you are btw, but I am interested in discovering it).

Your accusations against aloneinlove may or may not have been merited. Out of curiosity, do you actually have evidence that support your position, i.e. the testimony of a man who, upon being accused of rape, had his family, friends, coworkers and employer jump to their defense? I'm sure it has to have happened at least once. I don't know what the original proposition of your debate was, but the question phrased here is "can", i.e. to answer by the affirmative, one only needs to find one example of it happening. If you argue the negative, you would need to dismiss every single testimony as either lies, exaggerations or not applying to the case discussed.

[+]HarrietPotter -3 points-2 points-1 points 14 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

Dismissing anything that could be said on this board without even hearing it first.

How can you possibly know this?

Out of curiosity, do you actually have evidence that support your position, i.e. the testimony of a man who, upon being accused of rape, had his family, friends, coworkers and employer jump to their defense?

I imagine that most people who stand trial for a rape they didn't commit will find that some percentage of their social network abandons them. These, generally, are the people who speak publicly about the repercussions of false allegations. Not the people who are accused but never brought to trial.

the question phrased here is "can", i.e. to answer by the affirmative, one only needs to find one example of it happening

Well, that kind of supports my point. You can find evidence for anything. All the stories in this subreddit about men who've had their lives ruined by false allegations don't actually prove anything about society or the legal system.

[–]zyk0s3 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How can you possibly know this?

Right, yeah, ask the question here. I'm sure you'll get a completely unbiased answer.

Unless you're going to tell me that that comment was not sarcastic and not implying you thought every answer here would be biased, I don't need to add anything else.

Not the people who are accused but never brought to trial.

Well, if you read the other responses here, you will see people who aren't brought to trial who suffered in their personal life as a consequence of the accusation. I wanted to strictly remain in the no-trial situation, since finding examples for cases where the charges are brought to trial is trivial. You haven't given me what I asked for though.

All the stories in this subreddit about men who've had their lives ruined by false allegations don't actually prove anything about society of the legal system.

But that wasn't the topic of this thread, and since I still don't know the phrasing of the original debate, I don't see what that proposition has to do with the matter at hand. You can find evidence of everything, very true, even of women being raped, it doesn't prove anything about the frequency of rapes. That we can leave to statistics, but just like with false allegations, we have several problems: trustworthiness of sources, methods of calculations, confidence in the data, extrapolations about non-reporting, "truth" revealed in each case, etc.

[–]HarrietPotter0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Unless you're going to tell me that that comment was not sarcastic and not implying you thought every answer here would be biased, I don't need to add anything else.

Every answer here is biased. Every answer everywhere is biased. That comment was a criticism of aloneinlove, not r/mensrights.

Well, if you read the other responses here, you will see people who aren't brought to trial who suffered in their personal life as a consequence of the accusation.

Yes. I know you will. These things will inevitably happen, in any legal system. The problem I have with r/mensrights is that you use anecdotes as evidence.

I wanted to strictly remain in the no-trial situation, since finding examples for cases where the charges are brought to trial is trivial.

Well, my point is that charges that don't make it to trial aren't generally reported in any detail.

But that wasn't the topic of this thread, and since I still don't know the phrasing of the original debate, I don't see what that proposition has to do with the matter at hand. You can find evidence of everything, very true, even of women being raped, it doesn't prove anything about the frequency of rapes. That we can leave to statistics, but just like with false allegations, we have several problems: trustworthiness of sources, methods of calculations, confidence in the data, extrapolations about non-reporting, "truth" revealed in each case, etc.

Yeah, well this is why I found AIL's supreme confidence in his position a little grating.

[–]zyk0s2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Every answer here is biased. Every answer everywhere is biased. That comment was a criticism of aloneinlove, not r/mensrights.

Since you most likely wouldn't have made this remark if aloneinlove was posting in r/OneY or another board that you perceive as less biases, I do very much think it was a criticism of r/mensrights.

The problem I have with r/mensrights is that you use anecdotes as evidence.

And the point I made earlier is that even though it is not a reliable way to go about things, it's the only evidence available to us, so it's better to use those than to pretend it doesn't exist.

Well, my point is that charges that don't make it to trial aren't generally reported in any detail.

Ok, that's more specific. When you say "reported", you mean by the media? Because them not being reported by the media doesn't prevent the spreading of rumors and the practical ruin of the life of the accused.

I found AIL's supreme confidence in his position a little grating.

I haven't followed your debate with him, so I can't judge if either of you were stretching the truth in any way.

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Since you most likely wouldn't have made this remark if aloneinlove was posting in r/OneY or another board that you perceive as less biases, I do very much think it was a criticism of r/mensrights.

You're right, I think r/mensrights is generally biased. That doesn't mean I will "[dismiss] anything that could be said on this board without even hearing it first."

And the point I made earlier is that even though it is not a reliable way to go about things, it's the only evidence available to us, so it's better to use those than to pretend it doesn't exist.

Yeah, well, that's a good attitude. But whenever I express skepticism as to the degree of misandry inherent to the legal system - someone, without fail, will tell me to "go read r/mensrights, it's full of stories". And if I don't consider stories to be sufficient proof? Well, then I'm clearly in denial.

Ok, that's more specific. When you say "reported", you mean by the media? Because them not being reported by the media doesn't prevent the spreading of rumors and the practical ruin of the life of the accused.

Yeah, no, I get that. But I'm saying that, generally speaking, the only stories about false allegations that get reported - the only stories you hear - are the ones where an innocent man has suffered rather a lot. You don't hear about the stories where investigations were abandoned pretty quickly and no real harm was done.

I haven't followed your debate with him, so I can't judge if either of you were stretching the truth in any way.

It's not a question of "stretching the truth". It's a question of hubris.

[–]zyk0s2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That doesn't mean I will "[dismiss] anything that could be said on this board without even hearing it first."

Well, you've certainly proven you won't dismiss what we have to say in this discussion, so I retract my accusation.

Well, then I'm clearly in denial.

Consider that whenever we present proof of something with actual statistics (domestic violence distribution, higher rate of false rape accusations than other types of false accusation, or wage balance), we are usually met with denial, insults, and the argument that these studies are biased as opposed to theirs which, even when commissioned by organisms like NOW, are flawless. Last argument I had about domestic violence ended with "I don't care about statistics, people know men beat women more than the other way around". When this is the type of attitude we have to deal with routinely, I think you can see how we are pushed to be defensive all the time. Hell, you just saw me do it myself.

You don't hear about the stories where investigations were abandoned pretty quickly and no real harm was done.

Well of course not, "they lived happily ever after" isn't news. We have to be careful with these stories just like any other "stranger danger" story that makes parents think the whole neighborhood is out to rape, murder and eat their kids. However, if you put your own biases aside, and read blogs like thefalserapesociety (obviously bearing in mind the biases of the author) you may see what a lot of us here see: systemic problems engrained in jurisprudence. An evil person decides to use the pretense of a horrible crime (rape) to destroy another, ok, it happens, it's terrible, but we can't prevent all people from doing bad things. But if we see that the justice system is sometimes set such as to encourage this behavior, and we see people campaigning to make it even worse, our blood starts to boil.

[–]HarrietPotter2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Consider that whenever we present proof of something with actual statistics (domestic violence distribution, higher rate of false rape accusations than other types of false accusation, or wage balance), we are usually met with denial, insults, and the argument that these studies are biased

Well, that's what political debates are like. People who disagree with you will exploit the even most minor weakness in your argument. And yes, every study looks a lot more plausible when it's commissioned by an impartial body; that’s just how it is. Basically if you want people to accept your arguments, your arguments have to be rock-solid.

as opposed to theirs which, even when commissioned by organisms like NOW, are flawless.

Obviously, everybody considers their own sources to be more reliable. That’s just the way people are. But feminists put up with the same criticisms you do when they engage with political opponents. No-one is easily swayed from their convictions. An MRA generally will not concede an argument in the face of evidence produced by NOW.

Last argument I had about domestic violence ended with "I don't care about statistics, people know men beat women more than the other way around". When this is the type of attitude we have to deal with routinely, I think you can see how we are pushed to be defensive all the time. Hell, you just saw me do it myself.

It is frustrating when people dismiss your evidence unequivocally. However, as you acknowledge, most of the studies investigating issues like these are far from ideal. And when you're trying to refute conventional wisdom (for instance, the notion that men are more abusive than women), you will naturally need to provide a higher standard of proof if you hope to convince people.

systemic problems engrained in jurisprudence. An evil person decides to use the pretense of a horrible crime (rape) to destroy another, ok, it happens, it's terrible, but we can't prevent all people from doing bad things. But if we see that the justice system is sometimes set such as to encourage this behavior, and we see people campaigning to make it even worse, our blood starts to boil.

Justice systems are rarely set up to "encourage" bad behavior. Justice systems are set up to root out undesirables as efficiently as possible. To this end, innocent people will always suffer to some degree - in needless stress; in wasted time, money and energy; in damage to their careers, relationships and reputations. These things matter of course, and they need to be talked about - but they're not avoidable.

[–]zyk0s3 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Justice systems are rarely set up to "encourage" bad behavior.

Then let me just finish by saying that you seem to have an unusually high faith in your justice system. Probably because you feel satisfied with the way things are. MRAs aren't, they recognize that the justice system is actually set up to reward people who make it work: judges, prosecutors, defense attorney, not the innocent wrongly accused. The truth of the matter is, a woman in a western judicial system will never have to face charges from which she knows her word means nothing while the word of her accuser can be the only thing that puts her away. Imagine a world where you know there is a risk a random man, or a man you know, decides to destroy your life, and when he does, there's nothing you can do about it. You lose everything, family, children, friends, career. Everything. This will most likely never happen to you, and it is unlikely you will ever know a woman who this will happen to. But doesn't the knowledge that it might happen, that it happens to a few other people simply because they are women make you angry? Because if it doesn't, then you ought to be very surprised at the outrage over women being ostracized under accusations of adultery in some middle-eastern countries. And if it does, they you ought not to be surprised at all at the anger of MRAs.

That is all.

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Then let me just finish by saying that you seem to have an unusually high faith in your justice system. Probably because you feel satisfied with the way things are.

I'm not "satisfied". I accept that the system isn't perfect and that it will never be perfect. However, it's true I don't think it is biased to the extent that you do

a woman in a western judicial system will never have to face charges from which she knows her word means nothing

Wouldn't a woman accused of rape experience this?

while the word of her accuser can be the only thing that puts her away.

Again, this is an assertion I just can't get behind. It's my understanding that, generally speaking, rather more evidence than the victim's "word" is needed to secure a conviction.

Imagine a world where you know there is a risk a random man, or a man you know, decides to destroy your life, and when he does, there's nothing you can do about it. You lose everything, family, children, friends, career. Everything. This will most likely never happen to you, and it is unlikely you will ever know a woman who this will happen to. But doesn't the knowledge that it might happen, that it happens to a few other people simply because they are women make you angry?

It could happen to me. I could be implicated in a crime I didn't commit; either by malice or misfortune, I could lose everything. That could happen to pretty much anyone. Yes, the thought is uncomfortable. I don't have a solution. I don't think there is one.

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Unfortunately, in the majority of false rape charges, the man remains under a cloud of suspicion for years, and the woman is rarely charged.

Do they? Do you have numbers supporting this assertion? Even if it's true, what can we infer from it? Is this a problem that can be remedied? Does it reflect a failing in the legal system? Or is it simply the price of any legal system that attempts to punish rape while maintaining the standard of reasonable doubt?

Feminists should be jumping at the throats of any women who make false rape accusations

From what I've seen, there's no shortage of people willing to jump at these women's throats.

it makes it more difficult for all women to report real rapes, because they get put under the microscope and get emotionally raped again, all because every false accusation makes all accusations more suspect.

True. However, any woman who reports a rape is going to be put under the microscope and emotionally raped in any case. That isn't avoidable.

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I think what someone means when they say "X is a minority" depends on what other issues were on the table when they said it.

For example, if we were discussing the recent Dear Colleague letter in which collages were urged to lower the standard of proof in sexual assault cases to 'preponderance of the evidence', and I objected to that move with the logic that 'hey a false accusation can destroy a man's life' and someone responded, 'yeah but that happens in a minority of cases,' then what they are really saying is,'the probability of a false accusation destroying a man's life is small enough that reducing the standard of proof to preponderance of the evidence is acceptable' and not 'less that 50% of the time, a false accusation ruins a man's life'.

Those are 2 very different propositions.

What issues were on the table when the person you were arguing with claimed that false rape accusations ruined a man's life in a minority of cases?

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[–]drenath1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I believe you're looking for a number that can not exist to any degree of accuracy. False claims imply some sort of lie, so you are looking for statistics on lies. Probably not the most scientific way to gather data, though I did find this number I can toss your way:

http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/ (fourth paragraph under 'crying rape')

Twenty-seven percent (27%) of these complainants admitted they had fabricated their accusation just before taking the polygraph or right after they failed the test.

I personally am a man that had a female acquaintance spread rumors that I had raped her via a social network. My life was immediately impacted. I have also been on the receiving end of non-consentual sexual activites and let me tell you, I'd take the latter over the former any day.

Where do I fit into your figures?

[–]HarrietPotter2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I believe you're looking for a number that can not exist to any degree of accuracy. False claims imply some sort of lie, so you are looking for statistics on lies.

Well, that's why I find it so frustrating to hear MRAs tell me categorically that there is an anti-male bias in the legal system; and that I must be either deluded or a misandrist if I don't accept this as fact.

Twenty-seven percent (27%) of these complainants admitted they had fabricated their accusation just before taking the polygraph or right after they failed the test.

Well, that's interesting. It doesn't actually address the point I was making about whether false allegations generally ruin lives. I'd actually say it supports my point; since it seems to suggest that the overwhelming majority of accusations are actually genuine.

But, it does also suggest that false allegations are a serious problem. I agree that this is true.

I personally am a man that had a female acquaintance spread rumors that I had raped her via a social network. My life was immediately impacted. I have also been on the receiving end of non-consentual sexual activites and let me tell you, I'd take the latter over the former any day.

Where do I fit into your figures?

I have never claimed that these things don't happen, or that they don't matter. I would, however, say that the legal system is set up to support you in both of these cases.

I'm going to assume that you didn't say this:

I'd take the latter over the former any day."

in an attempt to trivialize rape.

[–]girlwriteswhat1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm going to assume that you didn't say this:

I'd take the latter over the former any day." in an attempt to trivialize rape.

Yep. That's what we do here. Trivialize rape nonstop. I mean just the other day, I heard an MRA say that in his opinion, women could gain by the experience of being raped.

Oh wait, that was a feminist, talking about men gaining from the experience of being falsely accused.

You know who trivializes rape? False accusers. You know who else? The people who protect and excuse and minimize the problem of false accusations of rape.

How about you tell me something. Is it true that a rape can destroy a woman's life? I mean, most of the time, she can keep the knowledge of what happened to herself. She doesn't have to tell anyone, people won't be able to see it in her aura as she walks down the street, she has access to therapy and all kinds of services, she has all kinds of power of decision as to how she wants to deal with it. She won't end up a childless spinster like she might have 200 years ago. She won't face public shame and ostracization. She won't have to bear any child that results. Most STDs are treatable. She probably won't have any lasting or crippling physical injuries that will impact her ability to work. She won't go on any registry. Hell, as long as no one else knows about it, she can just get over it. No external impact on her life at all.

Except that's not the case, is it? Most of the impact of a rape--most of what makes everyone think of it as life-destroying--is in the psychological and emotional fall-out.

Now do me a favor and set up an internet poll, asking men what they'd rather be accused of: Murder, or rape?

You are trivializing the emotional and psychological reactions men have to being accused. And you are minimizing the real-world damage done to their lives. I'm willing to bet that most men would choose to be falsely accused of murder over rape, because very few men trivialize what rape is and what it does to a victim, and putting someone else through that is the LAST thing they would ever want ANYONE to believe they'd done.

Most of the damage of rape is psychological, and most people believe it can and does destroy lives. And yet the damage--when you combine the visceral emotional response AND the fact that you can't keep ANY of it to yourself, and you don't get to choose how to deal with it--that a false accusation does to pretty much any man who is falsely accused is no big deal.

Who's trivializing whom, here?

[–]HarrietPotter2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]girlwriteswhat1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Go ahead and say that you think men should be able to suck up the psychological reactions they have to being accused of rape, so that it doesn't leave them emotional wrecks who can barely function, and admit that you don't hold women who are raped to the same standard of strength and determination against adversity as you do men.

Because if a single act of forced sex is so horrible that it ruins lives in the majority of cases--and this is the entire line of reasoning behind how far we, as a society, are willing to let women's advocates take us wrt changing rape law--because of the psychological fall-out (which is frightening, isolating and potentially stigmatizing), then you should damn well be able to concede that the psychological fall-out alone from being falsely accused is enough to destroy a man's sense of self, his sense of safety, his sense of trust in women and in intimacy, and his agency in the majority of cases.

Oh but wait, even if men aren't able to suck it up in the majority of cases, why should we care? They can gain from the experience, don't you know.

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Go ahead and say that you think men should be able to suck up the psychological reactions they have to being accused of rape, so that it doesn't leave them emotional wrecks who can barely function, and admit that you don't hold women who are raped to the same standard of strength and determination against adversity as you do men.

I don't expect that victims of false allegations should be able to "suck up" their reactions, and I don't know how you got that impression from anything I said. It's pretty clear you're just making things up now.

Because if a single act of forced sex is so horrible that it ruins lives in the majority of cases--and this is the entire line of reasoning behind how far we, as a society, are willing to let women's advocates take us wrt changing rape law

No it isn't.

because of the psychological fall-out (which is frightening, isolating and potentially stigmatizing), then you should damn well be able to concede that the psychological fall-out alone from being falsely accused is enough to destroy a man's sense of self, his sense of safety, his sense of trust in women and in intimacy, and his agency in the majority of cases.

My last post consisted of three sentences, and very clearly you didn't bother to read any of them.

[–]girlwriteswhat0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]HarrietPotter2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]drenath1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rantgrrl 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (38 children) | Copy Link

[–]HarrietPotter-2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Harriet, I know you fuck little babies... you shove your oozing vagina all over their little mouths.

Yeah, this is why I love sharing my opinions in r/mensrights.

Rape is the one crime in which we've seen fit to erode due process. All kinds of things apply to a charge of rape that do not apply to other crimes. Rape shield means the accuser is anonymous unlike any other crime, it also means her sexual history(including history of charging other men with rape falsely) is inadmissible while the man's past sexual crimes(proven or not) are admissible.

Why are we doing this? Why are we dismantling the legal process just for rape?

Well, I suppose the obvious answer is that we're not trying to dismantle the legal process. We're trying to make it better; in the sense of obtaining more accurate convictions. There are good reasons for all of the measures you outlined above. Rapists tend to be repeat offenders; so the most efficient way of catching them is reasoned to be by assembling a picture of the sexual history of those who are accused. Rape victims tend to be ashamed of their experiences; so the best way to encourage them to come forward is to offer them anonymity. Obviously, these measures mitigate certain problems while exacerbating other ones. This is going to be true of any approach. It is important to be critical of whatever system we adopt.

[–]rantgrrl5 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah, this is why I love sharing my opinions in r/mensrights.

Surely you're not upset at my false(well presumably) accusation?

We're trying to make it better; in the sense of obtaining more accurate convictions.

LOL, the unironic fascism.

Rapists tend to be repeat offenders; so the most efficient way of catching them is reasoned to be by assembling a picture of the sexual history of those who are accused.

Thieves, embezzlers and political dissidents are also often repeat offenders. By that logic we should be combing through their criminal histories as well.

Rape victims tend to be ashamed of their experiences; so the best way to encourage them to come forward is to offer them anonymity.

Then offer it to the accused as well because being accused of rape can destroy a person's reputation.

It is important to be critical of whatever system we adopt.

Which /mr is from the point of view of a group of people who are actually affected by having their due process removed for sexual crimes.

And your problem with this is?

[–]HarrietPotter-1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Surely you're not upset at my false(well presumably) accusation?

Oh, fuck off.

We're trying to make it better; in the sense of obtaining more accurate convictions.

LOL, the unironic fascism.

"More accurate convictions" meaning "fewer inaccurate convictions". Not more convictions.

Thieves, embezzlers and political dissidents are also often repeat offenders. By that logic we should be combing through their criminal histories as well.

Generally, those victimized by thievery and embezzlement aren't going to try to protect the offender.

Then offer it to the accused as well because being accused of rape can destroy a person's reputation.

That's true; such a measure might protect the reputations of the innocent. But it also might make it harder to identify the guilty. You could argue that verdicts are more important than reputations.

Which /mr is from the point of view of a group of people who are actually affected by having their due process removed for sexual crimes.

And your problem with this is?

My problem is that the denizens of r/mensrights are, in my experience, generally far more confident in their assertions than they have any reason to be.

[–]rantgrrl6 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh, fuck off.

Oh my. One would think false accusations were a problem with the way you're reacting.

"More accurate convictions" meaning "fewer inaccurate convictions". Not more convictions.

Removing due process does not result in 'more accurate convictions' it results in more convictions.

Generally, those victimized by thievery and embezzlement aren't going to try to protect the offender.

lolwut? So you're saying you support rape persecutions against the consent of the presumed victims?

That's... bizarre.

That's true; such a measure might protect the reputations of the innocent. But it also might make it harder to identify the guilty. You could argue that verdicts are more important than reputations.

Yes. You could argue that the importance of verdicts is more important then the importance of protecting the presumptively innocent.

Of course this means that even a charge of rape becomes it's own punishment due to the incredible stigma against baby rapers such as yourself (Oops. I mean presumed baby rapers. Haha.)

My problem is that the denizens of r/mensrights are, in my experience, generally far more confident in their assertions than they have any reason to be.

You're confident enough in your assertions to support the ongoing and very successful attack against due process in rape cases.

Based on a very flimsy argument as far as I can tell.

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh my. One would think false accusations were a problem with the way you're reacting.

Of course false accusations are a problem, smart-ass. If you want to argue with things I've never said, do it somewhere else.

lolwut? So you're saying you support rape persecutions against the consent of the presumed victims?

That's... bizarre.

You do realize that a huge number of rape victims never report the crime, don't you? And that a lot of them actually feel personally responsible for it? Can you think of any other crime where the victims react this way? No? Does this answer your question about why rape is treated differently to other crimes?

Of course this means that even a charge of rape becomes it's own punishment due to the incredible stigma

A charge is a punishment. There's no avoiding that. Being arrested and put on trial will always be frightening, exhausting and stigmatizing. This is the price you pay for living in a society that attempts to punish criminals.

baby rapers such as yourself (Oops. I mean presumed baby rapers. Haha.)

What point are you even trying to make with this aggressive, incoherent filth? That false allegations are a bad thing? What sane individual do you imagine would dispute that?!

You're confident enough in your assertions to support the ongoing and very successful attack against due process in rape cases.

I am confident enough in my assertions to defend them in a hostile environment; and without resorting to puerile insults like "baby raper."

[–]rantgrrl5 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You do realize that a huge number of rape victims never report the crime, don't you? And that a lot of them actually feel personally responsible for it? Can you think of any other crime where the victims react this way? No? Does this answer your question about why rape is treated differently to other crimes?

First of all, victims of other crimes also feel personally responsible; victims of violent crime often don't report as well. In fact female victims of sexual assault are just as likely to report as any other victim of violent crime. (Male victims are another story entirely and you might have a point when it comes to male victims.)

But even allowing that women don't report rape how does that justify eroding due process for the accused? You want more women to come forward by making it easier to convict the men they charge?

Where does that end, BTW? You could make it really easy by simply treating an accusation as a conviction and that's where all this is going, isn't it?

At what point will guilty-verdict advocates such as yourself be happy?

You're not happy now and men accused of rape have the fewest due process rights of any alleged criminal. How much more do you need removed before you are happy?

A charge is a punishment. There's no avoiding that. Being arrested and put on trial will always be frightening, exhausting and stigmatizing. This is the price you pay for living in a society that attempts to punish criminals.

And we live in a society that believes in due process (at least for crimes other then rape). Shouldn't rape victims just have to suck up and deal with that as well? Why do they need special provisions that make their criminal prosecution experience different then other prosecutions? After all we're supposed to believe in innocent until proven guilty.

You give rape accusers special provisions because rape is 'special' but you won't give men accused of rape special provisions because 'that's just the cost of living in a society that wants to punish criminals'.

I have to confess it's always disquieting arguing with someone about things I know they would understand if they GAVE A SHIT ABOUT MEN AS HUMAN BEINGS.

[–]HarrietPotter2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

First of all, victims of other crimes also feel personally responsible; victims of violent crime often don't report as well. In fact female victims of sexual assault are just as likely to report as any other victim of violent crime.

Really? Do you have a source for this?

But even allowing that women don't report rape how does that justify eroding due process for the accused? You want more women to come forward by making it easier to convict the men they charge?

I've already told you that I don't want easier convictions. What else do you want me to say?

You're not happy now and men accused of rape have the fewest due process rights of any alleged criminal. How much more do you need removed before you are happy?

Who says I'm not happy now? Where are you getting this?

And we live in a society that believes in due process (at least for crimes other then rape). Shouldn't rape victims just have to suck up and deal with that as well?

Depends what you want. Want the falsely accused to have a less stressful experience? Change things in favor of the accused. Want more rapists off the streets? Change things in favor of the accuser.

Why do they need special provisions that make their criminal prosecution experience different then other prosecutions?

Because the private and subjective nature of rape makes it extremely difficult to prosecute.

After all we're supposed to believe in innocent until proven guilty.

I don't see this as being inconsistent with anything I've argued here.

You give rape accusers special provisions because rape is 'special' but you won't give men accused of rape special provisions because 'that's just the cost of living in a society that wants to punish criminals'.

Like I said in my PM to you, the special provisions for accuser and accused are fairly zero-sum.

I have to confess it's always disquieting arguing with someone about things I know they would understand if they GAVE A SHIT ABOUT MEN AS HUMAN BEINGS.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was complaining about in the other thread. This, right here, is the problem with the MRM. It is insular and self-congratulatory. It is full of people who believe themselves to be morally superior and their opinions to be above contention. People who disagree with you politically couldn't possibly have valid arguments you've never considered, could they? No, they must be utterly devoid of all human empathy. The problem must be with them; it couldn’t possibly be with you.

[–]rantgrrl3 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Really? Do you have a source for this?

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv09.pdf

Page 8 Table 11

Violent crime 48.6% Rape/sexual assault 55.4 Aggravated assault 58.2 Simple assault 41.9

Women were more likely to report violent crime at 53% versus men at 45%. Which means they report rape more often then other forms of assault.

Depends what you want. Want the falsely accused to have a less stressful experience? Change things in favor of the accused. Want more rapists off the streets? Change things in favor of the accuser.

Because the private and subjective nature of rape makes it extremely difficult to prosecute.

Exactly. The problem with rape is that the evidence of rape is identical to a commonly occurring consensual activity. The evidence of most other crimes isn't. Rapes usually end up in a 'he said/she said' scenario that can only be resolved by trying to figure out who's lying.

Lowering the burden of proof for rape is actually worse then lowering the burden of proof for any other crime.

Leads to me saying things like this:

I have to confess it's always disquieting arguing with someone about things I know they would understand if they GAVE A SHIT ABOUT MEN AS HUMAN BEINGS.

This isn't about making a 'less stressful' experience for the falsely accused, it's about protecting them from the effective end of their lives and vigilante justice.

Do you care how rhetoric like 'a woman never lies' and 'women won't see justice done in the legal system' leads directly to accused men being raped with broken bottles, beaten with baseball bats, brutally murdered by vigilantes who want to take justice into their own hands? Or the social censure against the presumptively innocent that can lead them to be effectively ostracized from human society?

Yes it's important to get rapists of the street (of women-- if we were really that concerned about huge epidemics of free-roaming rapists we'd be doing a lot more to catch rapists of men) but it's also important to prevent legal, social and actual lynchings.

[–]HarrietPotter2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv09.pdf

Thanks, I will read that.

Lowering the burden of proof for rape is actually worse then lowering the burden of proof for any other crime.

I really, really am not arguing in favor of lowering the burden of proof.

This isn't about making a 'less stressful' experience for the falsely accused, it's about protecting them from the effective end of their lives and vigilante justice.

Potentially, that's true. I don't honestly think it's true in the majority of cases, though.

Do you care how rhetoric like 'a woman never lies' and 'women won't see justice done in the legal system' leads directly to accused men being raped with broken bottles, beaten with baseball bats, brutally murdered by vigilantes who want to take justice into their own hands?

...Honestly, I never hear this rhetoric except from MRAs.

if we were really that concerned about huge epidemics of free-roaming rapists we'd be doing a lot more to catch rapists of men

What would we be doing?

[–]rantgrrl3 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Potentially, that's true. I don't honestly think it's true in the majority of cases, though.

Vigilante justice may not be true in a majority of cases, but I would hazard that the falsely accused faces considerable social censure. Even after he's found not guilty. Many people will simply assume that he got away with it.

It would be fantastic if people actually had statistics on how often the falsely accused(or even just the accused in general) are subject to vigilante violence, 'extra' punishments in prison by other prisoners, suicide, depression, social ostracism, loss of job or romantic prospects, etc. That way we would actually understand the social costs of accusations on the accused.

But no one really cares enough to do that for them. Sympathy for 'rapists' is not a popular choice.

Honestly, I never hear this rhetoric except from MRAs.

Well, the rhetoric that false rape accusations are vanishingly rare is nearly as bad.

What would we be doing?

Well, for starters, we might try to bring awareness to the fact that men can be raped by women. And that men being raped by men is not a joke but, you know, bad.

[–]hopeless_case1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]hopeless_case1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rantgrrl4 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh, fuck off.

Let's do a little game of make believe. I'll play the sociopathic false accuser with an axe to grind and you can play her unwitting victim.

I call up the local constabulary and tell them that you are a baby raper. I can do this anonymously! I'll describe a violent and vicious attack and also allude to you being a serial baby raper.

They come to your place of work, arrest you and put you in jail till you can post bond. They will do this because of the heinous nature of your crime and their fear that you will strike again.

Your name will be published in the media. Some outlets will put 'presumed' or 'accused' and some will just say, 'Harriet Potter was arrested for raping babies on X day' or refer to you as 'Harriet Potter, baby rapist...'

When you post bond you may loose your job or be suspended from it due to the heinous nature of your crimes. Nine tenths of your friends will abandon you. Even your family will look at you skeptically. Your husband won't believe you and, unbeknownst to you, will start the process of divorcing you. He will get the kids and the last time you see them will be several months before you get your day in court. You are Harriet Potter, baby rapist, after all.

Why will it take that long to get your day in court even though your life has been put on hold in the meantime? Because that's the way justice works in America.

BTW, if you work with children, forget it. You will never get another job in your chosen field again. Hell you might never get a job again when potential employers google your name and find 'Harriet Potter, baby rapist.' And you can forget 'Harriet Potter, baby rapist' ever getting a date again as well.

Now we get to the court date. Your lawyer digs up evidence that I'm a serial accuser. The judge rules it inadmissable due to rape shield laws. You have evidence you weren't anywhere near babies the day I said you raped over nine thousand of them. I say it was another date entirely.

The prosecution brings up information about your past in which a stepdaughter of yours accused you of molesting her because you would not give her the car for the weekend. This accusation was eventually ruled unfounded, but it's still brought up at your trial.

The jury's looking at you mighty mean, don't you think?

Here let's stop and fast forward to the rape advocates gleaming rapetopia in which due process for rape has been eroded away because of the 'rape culture'.

You have no right to cross-examine me, hell, I may not even have to be in the court room. Hell you may never even know who I am! :D The standard for evidence in rape cases is merely 50.1% chance that you did it, not beyond the shadow of a doubt. The jury attends a 48 hour mandatory 'awareness' session before hand that essentially repeats 'rape accusers never lie' over and over again. That tells them that just my accusation alone should be enough to convict you!

Maybe at some time in this whole process I have a change of heart and decide to drop my accusation.

I can't. Government has made rape cases 'no-drop' to prevent them being withdrawn.

What a wonderful world! Particularly for Harriet Potter, CONVICTED baby rapist!

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rantgrrl3 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rantgrrl1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sometimes people will be unfairly convicted. This will be true no matter how much the legal system favors the accused.

I mean, look at it this way.

People such as yourself have a tendency to freak out about the social implications of slut shaming. Imagine that, rather then slut shaming, men could level a believable false rape accusation against a woman they didn't like. And they could remain anonymous while doing so. And there were almost no legal consequences for them to do so.

In fact let's imagine said man just calls a woman a rapist without getting the police involved. Wouldn't you be concerned about the social fallout of a false rape accusation then?

If you have concern over the possible side effects of slut shaming it stands to reason you would care about the side-effects of social false rape accusations. IF they were commonly directed at women. (Much less the side effects of criminal false rape accusations.)

[–]HarrietPotter2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Imagine that, rather then slut shaming, men could level a believable false rape accusation against a woman they didn't like. And they could remain anonymous while doing so. And there were almost no legal consequences for them to do so.

As far as I know, most rape shield laws are non-gender specific. So, men can do this, and there is no legal consequence.

In fact let's imagine said man just calls a woman a rapist without getting the police involved. Wouldn't you be concerned about the social fallout of a false rape accusation then?

Again, to my knowledge, there's nothing to stop a man doing this.

If you have concern over the possible side effects of slut shaming it stands to reason you would care about the side-effects of social false rape accusations. (Much less the side effects of criminal false rape accusations.)

Of course I care. But as far as I can tell, punishing rape and minimizing the fallout of those falsely accused is a pretty zero-sum game. It's essentially a question of which one should the courts care about more - enforcing laws, or protecting reputations? It's not an easy question. I can see why you feel the way you do.

[–]girlwriteswhat2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Wow, nothing to stop a man doing that? You really ARE an idiot.

"Wow, was she hot? Then what are you complaining about?"

"Well sure, she was ugly, but it was pussy, dude!"

"You had an erection. Can't rape the willing."

"You let a girl victimize you? Pussy."

"She's half your fucking size. You'd have been able to fight her off if you didn't want it."

"Fag."

And from the cops: "You want to accuse your female date of rape? Hahahahahaha!"

Feminists control the discourse on rape. Rape is a patriarchal crime. It is done by men, to women, because that's patriarchy. That's the misperception that informs the public view and the law.

It sucks for a woman to report a rape and have people doubt it happened. But you really think you'd bother to walk the gauntlet of ridicule, shame, emasculation, and denial that such a crime even exists that men would have to just to file a charge?

When the entire legal system sees women as victims and males as perpetrators because feminists told them so?

Fuck you.

[–]HarrietPotter2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]girlwriteswhat1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]HarrietPotter2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Atheistlest0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]hopeless_case1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]hopeless_case1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]HarrietPotter1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I will give the troll this response. A leading feminist legal scholar has acknowledged this irrefutable fact: ". . . the statistics on false rape accusation widely vary and 'as a scientific matter, the frequency of false rape complaints to police or other legal authorities remains unknown.'" A. Gruber, Rape, Feminism, and the War on Crime, 84 Wash. L. Rev. 581, 595-600 (November 2009) (citation omitted).

An authoritative law review article debunked the canard that only two percent of all rape claims are false. The author painstakingly traced this number to its baseless source. See http://llr.lls.edu/volumes/v33-issue3/greer.pdf.

The FBI has compiled statistics to show that women lie far more often about rape than other crimes. The Politics of Sexuality, Barry M. Dank, Editor in Chief, Vol. 3 at 36, n. 8.

It is, therefore, erroneous to assert that only a small or insignificant percentage of rape claims are false because no one can make that assertion with any degree of certainty, and all the available evidence suggests it is likely wrong.

But then again, I am biased.

[–]Celda 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]HarrietPotter 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Is it true that false rape allegations can destroy a man's life?
Author	aloneinlove
Upvotes	23
Comments	271
Date	November 1, 2011 7:22 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/lwr0q/is_it_true_that_false_rape_allegations_can/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/is-it-true-that-false-rape-allegations-can-destroy.1032302 https://theredarchive.com/post/1032302

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