#JusticeForJohnny | MensRights

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Trust me I can understand why. I have seen the types that you are talking about, and those are the ones I stay tf away from. I was raised by mostly men, and have mostly male friends who are basically brothers at this point. A lot of them confide in me and have told me I'm one of the few people they feel like they can be themselves around and actually talk about things or cry to when needed. It hurts hearing that, and it's a shame on society and the misinformation that we are taught. But we can all unlearn those behaviors and become better together. Also trust is earned not given. If anything though, I hope you know at least one person is one your side. And while I can promise that there are others, I can understand if it's hard to believe, especially when they get drowned out by the millions of other individuals who don't support you. Everyday is a new day, and I do believe people can change, when they want to. I hope one day that society is better for everyone.

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[–]ApprehensiveMail8 -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

"specifically advocates for the rights and issues of women (similarly, MRA for men)"

I would agree with this sentence as written, however, I would like to make a very nuanced point that can change how you see the whole debate.

Unlike the word "women", the word "men" is a gender neutral word in certain contexts. A "man" can be any individual member of the human race, particularly someone who does work.

This is not something MRAs made up, it traces back to the original etymologies of the word. The latin word "manus" means "hand", and the German word "man" which means "one/you" (but sounds very similar to "mann" which means a male person). But I digress. The point is, a wo-man is still a man.

So, when we say men's rights advocates advocate for the rights and issues of all men, that statement literally already includes the rights of all women.

Does that mean that we agree with feminists? No. Because rights are not the same thing as equality. Rights are universal and self-evident.

I have the same rights as Jeff Bezos. That does not mean I am not entitled to an equal amount of money. I have the same rights as Lebron James, that does not mean I am entitled to an equal amount of basketball playing ability. I have the same rights as my wife, I am not entitled to the ability to give birth. Etc.

In practice, the substantive debate between feminists and MRAs is over rights that MRAs do NOT believe exist. Female only privileges are not rights, even if they exist as an attempt to force equality.

I'm not sure where egalitarians stand on that.

[–]LettuceBeGrateful -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ApprehensiveMail8 -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Do you think I would just make something like that up? Feel free to look it up for yourself.

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On dictionary.com, 2/3 possible definitions of the word "man" can be applied to women.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/man

In Webster's dictionary, definition 1.a of "man" is an adult human especially but not exclusively a male. Definition 2 is an individual or person and even includes "she's your man" as an example of proper usage.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/man

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Now, to be fair, it is possible that some, maybe even most, members of the men's rights movement have the gendered definition in mind and consider themselves to actually be members of the male rights movement. It is possible that the moderator's of this board have that definition in mind. You would have to ask them what they mean.

But the literal meaning of the phrase "men's rights" is synonymous with "individual human rights" and can be interpreted that way by other people unless you clarify that you meant males only. And it has been that way pretty much the entire time the modern English language has existed.

You know the phrase "all men are created equal" in the U.S. Declaration of Independence? It meant all people, not just males. A German translation of the document published mere days later used "menschen" - people rather than "mannen" - males.

https://chnm.gmu.edu/declaration/adams2

Yes, yes, I know the Declaration of Independence was written by wealthy hypocritical white male landowners, and as soon as they actually had independence they promptly did not get around to actually giving women (or most males) voting rights or anything like that. They also didn't free their male slaves. But my point is that at least the fancy language they used was not meant to be gender exclusive at the time.

And I have never encountered a men's rights issue where any member of the modern MRM that I am aware of ever wished to exclude individual women from enjoying the same right to the extent applicable. If you can think of one let me know.

[–]LettuceBeGrateful -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm sorry, but you're misinterpreting those dictionary definitions. Both of those links line up with what I said above. Dictionary.com definitions #2 and #3 are genderless and refer to the human collective. The Merriam-Webster example of "she's your man" refers to a very specific idiom, not general usage. None of these definitions indicate that you can point to a woman and say, "she's a man." That's simply incorrect.

As I said above, "man" without an article can refer to mankind, which of course includes both men and women. That being said, "a woman is still a man" is just not a correct statement.

the literal meaning of the phrase "men's rights" is synonymous with "individual human rights"

There is no reason why this is the "literal" (did you mean default?) interpretation, and you will be hard-pressed to find another person who interprets the phrase "men's rights" the way that you do. Men as a genderless noun has significantly less usage and is typically relegated to flowery statements in documents stolen by Nicolas Cage.

have never encountered a men's rights issue where any member of the modern MRM that I am aware of ever wished to exclude individual women

There's no reason why advocacy for one group means denying another group those rights.

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[–]duhhhh 16 points17 points18 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ahhh yes incels. Those sexually shamed as "can't get laid" because a man that can't get laid by a woman holds no value, that are most concerned with -

Victims of female rapists being ignored and unsupported thanks to feminist manipulation of rape statistics, laws, and propaganda.
Victims of female domestic abusers being ignored, unsupported, and often arrested when they call the police for help thanks to feminist public policy.
Federal laws written by feminist lobbiests that actively block men from getting free vasectomies while ensuring all doctor prescribed female contraception is free without copay for nearly anyone with health insurance.
The rights of men and boys (especially those raped/coerced/forced by a court against their will) not to be a parent.
Family court bias when it comes to child custody and child support.

We incels sure care a lot about sex, relationships, and child issues, eh?

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I do not believe in patriarchy. There are those who do, and that's fine, but I believe in equality, or even equity where it's needed. When looking at the original definition of Feminist it states "Feminism is a range of social movements, political movements, and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes." Or the much more simplified version "the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes." Which is to imply Equality on both sides. Unfortunately most use it to bash men to advocate woman and I don't agree with that. We shouldn't ignore the problems of either side, nor should we talk over them when issues arise. I believe in advocating for both sides. And I believe that there are issues on both sides that need to be fixed. I don't believe either side is better than the other, I believe in only having everyone as an equal. I could go into more detail, and I hope my point of view isn't coming across wrong, but it's almost 3am here and I'm tired. But there are issues that do need to be talked about that guys go through, and this is just one of them. And if anything I do think that more people need to advocate for men over women, not because both issues don't matter, but because there's plenty of people advocating for women already, and nobody advocating for the men, and both matter tremendously. I know it's hard right now, and honestly I hope for a better future, for everyone. None of us are perfect, and neither of us will ever know what it's like to walk a mile in the others shoes. But either way I'll still be here for you, no matter what.

[–]Jakeybaby125 28 points29 points30 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]littlebitofstarlight[S] 18 points19 points20 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I mean that's a fair point. I do know a lot of other women like me who also call themselves feminists, who believe in the betterment of both sides. But I guess we mainly call ourselves that because there's not really another well known word for it. The group as a whole does have a lot of issues, and I can agree to that 100%. If I see another buzzfeed article bashing men I might start a Forrest fire near their main office. for legal reasons that's a joke. Honestly there just seems no good name or placement for it. We could start our own group, I'll be taking name suggestions below. But no in all seriously, the entirety of society is fucked and things need fixing and I don't think we're making much progress right now in society because everyone seems to be wanting to fight eachother rather than work together, and that just ain't it.

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[–]littlebitofstarlight[S] 12 points13 points14 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Truepeak7 points 5 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

That's not feminism, that's called equality as you said. It doesn't matter tho, if you follow your definition of feminism, you're making the world a better place...

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If it's about equality why is it called feminism? Just call it equality. The idea that feminism was a crusade for equality was a principle of what is now known as second wave feminism. It may be what you learned in school but it is not what is taught in college classrooms in 2021. The current wave of thought is called third wave feminism. The core principle of third wave feminism is to fight the patriarchy and maximize the gain for women. These are words shared by modern, prominent, published feminists. Not my own.

At this point in time, feminism is a confused pseudoscience that picks facts that support its position and rejects the facts that don't. It makes no attempt to research the opposing viewpoint and as a result the facts around low male acceptance/graduation rates, high incarceration rates, disproportionate sentencing for the same offenses, non-existent paternity rights, high suicide rates, low life expectancy, poor healthcare outcomes and high homelessness are simply ignored by researchers who have a personal confirmation bias and monetary incentive to find patriarchy and female opression instead.

Simply stating these facts results in the speaker being personally attacked as a bigot, a misogynist, etc. That's all part of the problem too. Feminists select the facts they like then call everyone who argues names. That's not science.

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Anyone who calls themselves a feminist these days is either totally blind to the world around them and/or has been deluded or conditioned to believe all men are evil/wrong and everything they say is a lie.

Men make up half the world, how could you have gone through your life without seeing the BLATANT bias in divorce / family matters / prison time / the draft / the vast difference in support for homeless men / shelters

Have they never watched a war movie and wondered where all the women were? u/littlebitofstarlight did you think all the men were in those war movies because 'well duh men like war because they are men, they like fighting and killing because men are evil' ? If you didnt think that i am sure some feminist has told you it at some point, or that war is all mens fault

There is no way someone who truly believes that feminism is in any way shape or form is about equality, it may have started that way but in the western world it has not been that way since the 80s

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Brie wasn't a good pick eather, went to CM with some friends under the assumption that it would be plot relevant for end game, it wasn't

Untill hollywood realises the hero's journey requires struggle and masculine traits (courage, determination, willpower, honour) i'm staying clear.

Good example Mulan 1998 as opposed to mulan 2020, 1998 mulan had to put in the work to "be a man"

Mulan 2020 had these non existant "patriacal shackles" that once off lets her use the power she always had, no stuggle, no journey, no pay off. Aka boring

CM had the same problem.

Iron-man, Thor and Captain America all had the struggle.

Tony overcoming his ego and some of his vices

Thor overcoming his hubris and learning humility

Steve rogers proving witt is more important than brawn. Also getting fit enouth to survive the super soldier process

Carol danvers: explosion hey super powers

MaRey Sue Palpatine: self explanitory also frick Luke Skywalker.

Again no struggle what so ever.

As for my thoughts on Amber Heard the walking tird. Yea i'm avoiding all the products she associated with, don't know if that helps atleast its something.

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[–]littlebitofstarlight[S] 8 points9 points10 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But them hiring her while Johnny suffers is also part of the problem. This isn't just about Johnny, or even Amber. It's about accountability of actions and the suffering that Depp, and many others go through. She shouldn't get off scot free, as that sends the wrong message, and others will take advantage of that, because they know that the law and society will side with them. It's about the message that it sends to others. It's about representation and spreading awareness that things like this do happen, which I'm sure all of you know, but that won't happen if it gets swept under the rug. Justiceforjohnny is, but also isn't, about Johnny. I say that because it's also about all the people who see the outcome, and it will change how people view the subject in the future. Sure this is just once instance of many, and there's many other issues that aren't talked about. But again it's a start. I grew up watching Depp, and I myself have been through similar, so my heart is heavy for him, but there's also so many others suffering and no one should be made to feel alone, or unheard, and no one else should have to suffer either.

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Title	#JusticeForJohnny
Author	littlebitofstarlight
Upvotes	1844
Comments	156
Date	June 3, 2021 5:49 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/nr63xt/justiceforjohnny/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/justiceforjohnny.826994 https://theredarchive.com/post/826994

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