~ archived since 2018 ~

They lied to me.

November 12, 2021

In December of 2018, my husband and I decided to stop preventing pregnancy. By June of 2019, we were trying in earnest. By September, I was tearfully asking him to get his semen tested. By February of 2020, we knew IVF was our only hope for children. Luckily for us, despite the pandemic, we were pregnant by the end of 2020 and I gave birth to two healthy girls in June.

A librarian, I always planned to work full time when I had children, following in the footsteps of my mother and her mother and my dad's mother. My husband knew this from the beginning and we planned our life around this model. We thrived with two incomes and bought a home just 10 minutes from both of our workplaces. We took out credit cards and cashed in some investments to pay for our $30,000 worth of babies, knowing that, together, we'd make six figures and could afford to pay it off. Throughout my pregnancy, this was our plan. Even after I nearly died giving birth, we never discussed an alternative. I would stay home during my recovery and then I would go back, putting our girls in a nearby church daycare. I'd get to be the career woman and the mom. It's perfect, exactly as I've always hoped... and it sucks.

For six weeks now, my husband and I have been waking at 6:00 a.m. to feed our girls, before getting them ready for daycare and ourselves ready for work. We leave the house by 7:30 and drop them off at 7:45, together. We each go home for lunch, where we do chores that we don't want to do later, then finish the day at 5:00, when we head to the daycare. We get home at about 5:30 and try to balance daily tasks with enjoying our girls while they're awake. By 6:00, they're asleep and we can make dinner and eat before they have their final bottle at 8:00 and we put them down. We'd like to feed them earlier, but they'd go to bed that much earlier and we'd miss more of the cumulative hour or so we get with them. After we put them down, we do household chores and watch a show before bed. This is every night, until the weekend, when we have to run any and all errands, because we don't want to miss out on time with our babies during the week. Instead of enjoying them at home, we drag them around while we shop for groceries and get the oil changed and return packages and store purchases. Then we share them with family or friends, if there's some get together, before returning home to put them to bed.

All my life, I pictured having a career I cared about, where I worked full time, and then coming home to my family. I went to college and then grad school. I worked two jobs while carving my professional path. I got a job I loved with understanding managers and made good money. I had as close to zero commute as possible and a clean, safe, nearby daycare minutes away. It was the American dream and it was a lie. I have never considered myself a feminist, but I still thought I could do this. This is the model most people follow. Of course we would, too.

Six weeks. I made it six weeks before handing in my notice to leave my "dream job," the job I can't seem to build any enthusiasm for anymore. Everyone keeps telling me that it gets better, but when I ask how much time they get with their children at night, they almost always answer less than an hour. After two back-to-back rounds of Pandemic IVF, an emergency C-section due to extensive pneumonia and pregnancy-induced heart complications that impact .00001% of women, three blood transfusions, four days in the ICU and three more in labor and delivery... I get an hour with my girls each night. I have a cardiologist now and $9,000 in hospital bills, but I have an hour with my babies.

Leaving my job has been one of the most difficult decisions I've ever had to make. I worked so hard for this. I dreamt of this. I loved what I do. I remember loving it... but I can't do it anymore. I keep thinking I'm weak, that other women do this all the time... but then I talk to them and realize that it doesn't get better. They just get used to it and those aren't the same thing. While I'd love to do the same job half time or part time, when the right opportunity comes along, full time employment is just an impossibility for me and will be for a very long while. I'm fortunate that my husband and I are in a situation where I can leave, but I'm so disappointed in myself and I feel so disillusioned. I'm a pretty traditional woman. I thought I knew that we couldn't have it all. I never considered this average suburban setup to be having it all, but here I am. It was all a lie.

So, to all the young women out there, forging your path, keep in mind that, no matter how much money you can make, you can't make more time. I may return to my library system half time, so I can still get the chores done and the errands run. I may homeschool and pursue a new dream in twenty years. I can always have a career, but I can only be with my girls while they're small once. I thought it was a cliché, but it's true.

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Post Information
Title They lied to me.
Author TheTwincessMaker
Upvotes 224
Comments 43
Date November 12, 2021 8:51 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RedPillWomen
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Original Link
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[–][deleted] 47 points48 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

touching story thank you for sharing, best to you and your family

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thank you!

[–]Frosty_Discount_3305 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

your beautiful username makes sense too! Hoping you and your family find that perfect sweet spot of balance. Keep pushing through!

[–]-Acta-Non-Verba- 22 points23 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes, that time is precious. Part- time work might work in the future.

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm hopeful that something will open in the next few months and that it will work with my childcare limitations. I'd love to do the same job 20 hours a week.

[–]PhaedrusHunt 12 points13 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Hey, good for you. Follow your heart.

I've only known a few women to pull it off with some type of balance.

My college buddy and his wife are one couple. Went to college with her too. They were both teachers, but she wanted to stay home with the kids, but still work some, so she got her real estate license. She started to do really well, and got back full time when the youngest went to school. She works from home a lot, so was homeschooling during the pandemic, working, raising three kids, somehow doing it all. She's been very successful and is quickly becoming one of the top realtors in a major city.

Take your time, enjoy your kids, and work if you can when you're ready. If your husband can hold down the fort, this age is the time to do it.

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 8 points9 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I know a few families who appear to make it work, but I obviously don't know the details of their marriage and parenting setup. My husband and I have never planned to use public schools, so homeschooling might be in our future. I think I could actually work half-time and homeschool, too, but I'm not going to convince myself that's possible either, now.

[–]OmarNBradley 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

We have twins and we made it work. The first year was really really hard; I worked at the Pentagon and my husband is a school teacher so we were up at around 0500 every morning so we could be on the road by 0630 or so.

I think the difference between us and you guys was that for us, there was never any question of either of us quitting, ever. I was and am the breadwinner so leaving my job was never a possibility. My husband had no interest in giving up his career. So we just made it work, because there was no alternative to making it work. If you had any ambiguous feelings about any of it, then yeah, that would be a game changer.

But of course having infant twins and two careers is difficult! Most people will never be in that position, so anything that a parent of singletons tells you about having kids and being a working mother will be of limited use. We had our third when the twins were seven and it was like getting a hamster or something, I couldn't believe how much less work it was.

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So we just made it work, because there was no alternative to making it work. If you had any ambiguous feelings about any of it, then yeah, that would be a game changer.

I agree that this is the key. I think most people who make it work, find themselves in this situation. My SIL mentioned staying home a few times, but never did, despite having plenty of money. She's a mechanical engineer and has to fight hard enough to be taken seriously in her field, so I think it really came down to her having to give up her career forever and she, understandably, didn't want to do that. If I can't get back into my system half-time, I still have other avenues open to me, where I could do something similar, including teach. If I want to wait twenty years to reenter the workforce, teaching will always be an option.

Having twins definitely makes it harder, not just because it's double the work and half the time for fun, but also because they're doing the same things at the same time. If I miss it, I'm missing it for both of my children. I feel like I barely know them and I've only been back at work for six weeks. We also want to go forth with another transfer of our frozen embryos this summer. That pregnancy will be high-risk, because of my fun new heart condition. I can't have a high-risk pregnancy, twins, and work full time.

[–]OmarNBradley 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

it's double the work and half the time for fun, but also because they're doing the same things at the same time.

I’ll be honest, this is why we had a third. I realized the day we brought them home from the hospital that I didn’t want this to be the last time we did any of that stuff. No regrets. Good luck!

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's been my thought process, as well! I don't want this to be the only time I get to do these things.

[–]hearyoume14 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The families I’ve known that pull it off usually were teachers or otherwise worked while the kids were in school.

I have family that homeschools and my cousins do work part time with preschoolers.School doesn’t take near as long with only a few kids and they utilize co-ops,online options and switch off watching the younger ones with other members.

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I've worked with homeschool kids for years. That's what makes me want to homeschool.

[–]Throwaway230306 11 points12 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

One thing I learned during my almost 8 years of parenting is that all those earnest plans and goals and conversations about family life that we are supposed to have with our partners long before having kids can go out the window once we actually have kids.

And one universal I noticed is that few women want to work just as much or more after having kids.

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for the encouragement. I feel very different about motherhood than I thought I would.

[–]Throwaway230306 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, me too, and it changes over the years as well!

Before having kids I thought we'd have one, maybe two kids, and anything over two kids was for insane people...until I pulled the old "honey I think I'd like another baby" and now we have three.

There are things I felt super strongly about when I first became a mom vs. now, eight years later. And I expect that my perspective will change again when I have teenagers! 😱

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn't think I'd even like them. I knew I'd love them, but I don't like children and I knew I wouldn't like staying home. Now, I hate leaving them.

[–]soulure 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Sometimes people say that one day you will look back on your life and not regret the extra time you had with your babies. That day just happens to be today for you. Congrats on the clarity.

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you. I'm glad I finally made a decision.

[–]SunshineSundressEndorsed Contributor 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for sharing these intimate thoughts with us! Your perspective really shines a light a lot of things that many of us haven’t even considered yet. I see a lot of my own goals in the ones you had before you had kids, and you’ve given me so much to think about. Thank you again for telling us your story, and I hope you and your family find what you need to thrive ♥️

[–]CountTheBeesEndorsed Contributor 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for writing this, it really confirms a lot of things I've been thinking of. If you have children, they just sort of take over. And it is normal and right that they do - because the alternative is one hour a day with them.

[–]melissasue22477 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Today was my last day at the company I've worked at for the last 6 years. My Littles are 2yrs and 4months. I'm so excited for this next step! Having it all is a sham.

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm excited to stay home. My girls will be five months just before my last day. It's a fun age to be around them. Even if I go back half time soon, it will be nice to have this time with them.

[–]ThrowRA_photog1267 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Something one of my bosses told me that always stuck is that you can have it all, you just can’t have it all at the same time.

She was a senior partner at our firm, but when she graduated law school she worked for a couple years and then stayed home for a couple more to be with her kids, and then worked part time while they were in school. She only went back to work full time when they were teenagers, and then her career took off and now that they’re in university she has the big title and big job. I think it’s a great way of looking at it.

[–]girlwithasidecarEndorsed Contributor 14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

My oldest is now two and a half. We look at pictures from a year ago and she's a completely different kid. It is so cliche to say that it goes so fast but it goes so fast.

I think we all have naive notions of what you can do with kids and what you will want to do with kids. When Kaos was a baby I took her to work with me. I thought she would sleep and I would work. Instead she cried and I went crazy. I brought her to client meetings where, luckily, people thought it was adorable that she crawled around and ate the power cords. I was about to figure out a child care arrangement a few days a week when quarantine hit and Mae-Hem came along.

Now we are home and I have possibly the ideal-est situation for working and raising kids. And you know what, it still hurts my brain so so much. There is no way to plan from day to day and give everything the necessary attention. I tell myself that if I could just be more organized it would all be ok.

But it's been two and half years and I'm not more organized and it's not easier. It's just putting one foot in front of the other each day.

I'm happy for you that you have your girls and that you have the opportunity to stay home with them. Don't beat yourself up that you can't do everything. I think we all make compromises and just get used to them. Then we tell people "it's doable" without telling them what we give up or "it gets better" without telling them where we settled.

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think we all make compromises and just get used to them. Then we tell people "it's doable" without telling them what we give up or "it gets better" without telling them where we settled.

This is absolutely true. We see other people manage something and don't know what they're giving up to do it.

[–]RainGodz 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm feeling this, I despised the idea of being a housewife because I thought I wouldn't be happy focused on children. I thought I would find greater happiness in achieving a high status in whatever field I chose to work in.

I got pregnant and then life flipped, I thought life was over a couple of times before the baby came but now that he's here I'm loving it. It's difficult but amazingly rewarding and I am so ashamed of my /r/childfree mindset pre baby

Now I'm a housewife and love it. I support my husband and take care of our child as best I can. I sleep better at night(well maybe not always) because I feel more fulfilled.

I do feel lied to, but I don't know at who yet. I'm just trying to let the young women in my life know that being a housewife is not degrading and is ideal for most families

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think you should feel bad for your previous childfree mindset. We all make plans and it's okay that children weren't originally in yours. I guess I feel like mainstream society is who lied to me. It's not the Carrie Bradshaw-esque 90's feminists. I never listened to them anyway. It's more the people I know who don't tell you about what they really have to give up to have that career or even the TV shows and media where it just doesn't come up. This is what normal people do, right? So, how come no one ever told me it sucks?

[–]Dancersep38 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yup. I'm a SAHM. Currently my daughter is battling cancer so we spend days at a time in the hospital. Tonight was day 5 of 8 hour long infusions, plus a 90 minute round-trip to the big city hospital. It's a pretty standard working mom schedule and I'm burnt the fuck out. I truly feel like I never see my other children. I basically have time to put out one "fire" every day, meaning things have to be a flaming emergency before it's dealt with. I have a tremendous support network too, which makes me all the more impressed with regular working moms. I always knew I didn't want to juggle kids and a career and boy has this past year just proven to me how deeply I feel that.

You can always ease back into work as they get older. The first few years are just so precious, be there if you can be!

[–]NoShitsGivenAtAll 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

In 15 years, everything you do now in your job will mean nothing to you, but those two daughters will be everything to you.

A job is just a job. It's overrated. You're basically spending the time you realized is valueless just to make that CEO richer. It's not even for you! It's a necessity, not a dream. Men talk about their "dream job" because they can't survive without it. It's required. It helps to think of doing something they like not to suffocate. Not because they think of labor in their sleep and love it.

The tragedy is that most women waste their prime years in a job that will mean nothing to them in the future. You a winner!

[–]Latter_Ad_6840 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Once you have kids and marriage to a great husband I think you have it made. I think women generally have to climb the SES and corporate ladders to land a mate that is pleasing to them, and then to keep them wanting to invest their lifetime into them as the mother of their child. It's also a great backup because you never know. You should really be proud, you set your life up in such a way. But I agree with you completely.

I think a lot of stories in Hollywood, or just popular modern myths of high powered women, they are often single and land a status-equal mate and that is the appeal of those stories, that's why many women relate to them. It's what has to be done before relaxing into a more traditional role.

[–]metajenn 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've always thought the idea of a mother working full time was absolutely whack. There's a documentary about 2nd wave feminism in the 60s where they interviewed some lady on the street and what she thought about women protesting for work. She basically said, "I don't want things to change, I like my life."

With all social change, there's always this extreme pendulum swing to the opposite end of the spectrum before we find a middle. With women in the workforce, I think our sex was super gung ho about it to begin with because we were coming out a time where the option wasn't there. And now we're settling on the fact that working just isn't FOR every woman. Just because we can doesn't mean we should. Some women THRIVE in the home. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just like there's nothing wrong with women who prefer to work.

The economy benefitted greatly from the workforce essentially doubling overnight so of course there's going to be a push in the narrative that women working should be a standard but I think that idea has become more destructive than productive. I think more women staying home and spending more time with their partner and children could help some of the social issues we're facing.

Eventually hopefully, we figure out that life isnt defined soley by GDP.

[–]toomanytocount007 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I got pregnant when I was still in high school and the day I found out, I requested more hours at work. I hated trying to balance work with my baby and I always wanted to be able to stay home with my kids one day. I got married to a wonderful man when she was about 5 and we had a child together a year later. 6m after he was born, I quit work. It’s what I was always called to do, what I always wanted. I never understood the mentality of two people deciding to work, in order to pay for their expensive cars, fancy trips and life to show off to social media. I never got why a woman would choose to put a large portion of her paycheck to daycare and the gas it takes to get to work and daycare but then validate it with making an income. How much are they “really” making? When I still worked after my son was born, my dh and I worked opposite shifts to prevent paying someone to raise our kids. It was ideal, but then we never saw each other. My sister in law has a well paying job and my brother likes to brag about how well they’re doing financially, but she sees her kids in the extreme early morning just to drop the kids off and then from 630 to 8 in the evening. I just don’t get it. I apologize if anyone is offended by my opinion, but what the world is telling us is important isn’t quite right at all anymore.

[–]girlwithasidecarEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit here. Overall, I think that it is a real shame that most cannot raise a family on one income. And I'm not offended by what you are saying but I don't think that it is an easy or obvious decision for a lot of families.

I never got why a woman would choose to put a large portion of her paycheck to daycare and the gas it takes to get to work and daycare but then validate it with making an income.

Daycare and gas are expensive no doubt so you need to earn over a certain amount. Looking just at daycare:

Quick google search for average annual cost by state-

PA - $15,000 TX - $10,000 FL - $8,400

So there is a lot of variability but for a college educated person (those are the people weighing "career" over kids) that's not the entirety of her income. The more you earn the smaller a percentage daycare is and so the bigger loss of spending money it would be to quit work.

And it is not just the consideration for now. If a woman wants to go back into the workforce at some point (or has to for financial reasons) - like when her kids are all in school - then she may be better off keeping her foot in the door rather than quitting.

We take on huge amounts of debt from student loans to cars to mortgages to credit cards. When you think you will go back to work, you can end up in a situation where that second income is necessary not just desirable. People tend to buy houses for as much as they can afford on their income at the time. That means it's not an easy decision to "cut back" and go down to one income if the second income is going towards your debt service.

There are women that don't feel ok trusting their husband to be the sole provider. Yes, divorce laws favor us but no one is better off in a divorce. When so many marriages end this way, it's not unreasonable to want your own earning potential instead of scrambling to catch up in the unfortunate event of a divorce.

I worked opposite shifts to prevent paying someone to raise our kids

This is a matter of where your values are. I think that you could argue that a solid relationship with your partner is just as important as being home with you kids. It's important to to keep the relationship healthy so you stay together and so you model a good relationship for the kids

And of course for some families one income is not an option at all.

[–]balis_for_breakfast 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I actusy think that's beautiful in a sense. I'm a firm believer that women have one of the most important and noble roles in our world by literally raising and shaping the next generations of human life. to intstill good values and morals, to teach and show the beauty in this world, to create a caring nuruting environment and it all gets taken so much for granted. I grew up with my mom home almost all the time, and I just don't think I could picture being shuffled between daycare and school all week while living my entire life on the other side of a screen. you should be proud of the decision you made, being a strong leading figure for your family. everyone is so concerned with what the rest of the world is doing nowadays, it can overshadow what's happening in their immediate circle of life. it's exactly what we need more of, not less. take that realization of the lie you were fed as a liberating moment, not debilitating

[–]WeWearMirrors 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm like you - I stayed home with my kids. My mother warned me about all of this when I was a child. I feel like I was lucky, because I knew to plan a career that I could do part time and from home.

Still, I know people who made full time work and kids in daycare work for them. I don't necessarily think you were LIED to, more that this works for some people and not others. I have friends who got incredibly bored being home with their babies and they were glad to go back to work. They followed a slightly different model - typically they took a long (unpaid) leave until baby was at least 6 months old. Then they went back to work. They also had family nearby to help when needed. I think that also made a big difference.

Anyhow, congratulations on being at home!!

[–]IntelligenceLtd 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Trying to raise a family and live and work sucks in the anglosphere, In the USA (the worlds richest nation but only for some) its exponentially worse than even worse parts of europe like where I live in the UK (which until recently was a lot better) scandanavia totally different story netherlands ditto. Uncle Sam treats it citizens like incels imagine chad treats stacey and just like stacey in this analogy they go along with it. I love to visit and theres so many amazing aspects of the country plus all respect to you, the lovely people there and my numerous friends and family that live there but theres no amount you could pay me to live in that dogshit excuse for a welfare state (and I dont really like it where I live especially as our governments are trying as hard as possible to copy the american kelptocracy) to paraphrase George carlin Its called the american dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.

I feel for you good luck with your 9,000 dollar medical bill, your 0 federally mandated paid hours of maternity leave and average of 12 mandated hours of paid holiday per year. I dont know how you do it but hopefully someone will eventually manage to fight the lobbyists and powers that be and get some kind of quality of life.

if you ever get the urge and chance to move (which I advise) heres some comparisons

[–]uniq0rn_qlitter 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link


[–]breadcake5245 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I watched the women in my workplace do this for three years before I had my own. I watched them FaceTime their husbands/nannies and say goodnight to their kids while we worked late. I watched them wave to their families outside the windows when we had to come in on families. I watched them get talked about by our managers when they had to leave a little early to pick up their kids. I watched women be so uncomfortable during meetings because they really needed to go pump their breast milk, but they didn’t want to seem like slackers missing another meeting. I had co-workers tell me “I hope your husband has a flexible job.” “Save up some of that FMLA for when your baby gets sick from daycare.” “It’s better to wait to get pregnant until you’re older and have more flexibility.” They gave me a huge raise right before I went on maternity leave because they were bleeding women from the organization. There was a huge push for more women in management positions.

I was never more relieved than the day I left for maternity leave, and never went back.

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I really haven't had any of these problems. I don't work holidays and my hours are very set, though they do include one weekend a month and one night a week. My managers are really supportive and I don't breastfeed, because I almost died giving birth and nothing happened in that area at all. My husband and I work next door to each other, 10 minutes from home and 15 minutes from daycare. We had the literal most ideal situation... and it still sucks. I think that's why it was so difficult to accept that what I'd always planned wasn't going to work. I thought I had all the bases covered to make it easier.

[–]LaynieFloyd 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Also, your job can fire you. Your kids can't fire you. So when trying to balance them, you will naturally choose work over your kids. It isn't until one day when they are grown up you realize how much you missed. We have one care, a fixer upper house, cloth diaper, cook 3 meals a day and follow a strict budget so I can stay home. I do not regret it all. Every day I think if I were to die today....I would be most grateful I have spend so much time with my babies.

[–]TheTwincessMakerEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You know, I almost died in childbirth and I think about this every day. If I died, I'd barely know my girls, but I'd be good at my job. I'm not okay with that.

[–]Sisterstander 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I literally don’t work and am so poor bc I don’t want my kids raised by other people . I even homeschooled (it was a nightmare and I am now enrolling each child in the dreaded public school system as they reach age six bc that’s the legal age they have to start ) you are blessed to have a man that supports your choices and helps make a way - hold on to that truth when things get hard . But ur choice is good . U will be happier being with the babies more . I hope it all gets better for u , thank u for sharing your story.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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