Are we the bad guys but we don't get it?

[deleted] · 2013-05-02T22:21:25+00:00

[permanently deleted]

redpillschool · 2013-05-02T20:00:35+00:00

They use shame and insults, but where are the arguments?

I'll start rethinking my position when somebody shows me proof that I'm wrong.

I think the most telling fact that re-enforces my opinion of red pill is that most of us started on that side of the fence and only came over to this side because our original views were demonstrably wrong. Most of us didn't want red pill theory to be true. It's dirty garbage that suggests that we're more victim to our instinct than mom, dad, or sesame street ever let on. It suggests that deep down inside, nobody's special and that love that we so desperately crave is evolutions way of controlling men to ensure the species' survival.

It makes me sick just thinking about it. Of course we didn't want this shit to be true.

But when you start reading it and realizing that it explains your observations better than any other model you've read or heard about, you start wondering, is there truth to this?

And the real kicker for me, and a lot of men, is when embracing the red pill started getting me results. I can't argue with that.

TL;DR

Red pill theory explains historical observations, makes predictions, and predictions are met with results.

Want more shame? Check out this thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1dkjdz/user_uj2501_suggests_that_women_should_be_more/

EDIT Regarding /u/tpiecer Troll below, my response:

I'm going to put a stop to this stupidity. Our philosophy isn't a five word catchphrase that we conjure every time some moron walks by and claims that if we don't define it right away it lacks definition.

The sidebar is, in fact, a collection of works that accurately describes the red pill philosophy. It's wordy, yes. I'm sorry that you'll actually have to read something.

Don't come here with ridiculous demands and then march around as if you've won something with a ridiculous accusation as "if you don't answer me right now with exactly what I want you're wrong."

That's like saying, hey- somebody quickly, from memory, tell me what the United States is.

"Well it's a country."

That's not enough! YOU LOSE!

TehGinjaNinja · 2013-05-02T20:48:43+00:00

Yes! We are the Bad Guys! Embrace it!

Anyone who launches a critique of the conventional-wisdom and accepted-truths of their society will be vilified. The more accurate that critique: the more intense the vilification. But if you embrace that vilification, it loses it's sting.

TheRedPill, at it's heart, is about recognizing and setting aside the various fallacies that our society has taught us and gaining advantage by basing our actions on empirical reality. However, anyone who sets aside, or works against, the values and beliefs of their society is a bad guy by their society's standards. And if they do it for their own personal advantage; that makes them a true villain.

TheRedPill is Villainy 101 and that's a good thing for us. Because we live in reality. And in reality, nice guys finish last, heroes get themselves killed, and the bad guy usually wins.

This is reality. If you want to be a winner, be the bad guy.

JamesRyder · 2013-05-03T01:10:07+00:00

We're honest... what more could you ask of us?

jngshin · 2013-05-02T21:30:22+00:00

As someone who primarily frequents 4chan/fit/...

seddit is garbage. mensright is mostly garbage.

theredpill is not garbage.

Tmmrn · 2013-05-02T20:33:23+00:00

I saw a nice analogy the other day regarding TRP: it's like CoD gamers discussing the latest weaponry.

Could be true for some of us. I know it is for me. I only came to this SR a long time after going through a divorce (no divorce-rape, so not bitter). My understanding of women based on my experience since divorce:

They want entertainment and status. The man is to provide one or both.
They are more or less incapable of thinking about anyone but themselves when it comes to the impact of a decision that affects them.
Oh my god, do they love riding the carousel.

This understanding has helped me change myself in the following way:

Be fun, fit and successful (was always successful, more or less).
I do not take it to heart when a woman loses her mind over trivial shit because it is like dealing with a child.
Women who have had more than 5-6 lovers are incapable of pair bonding and so I should not be investing time/energy in them for LTRs. This means that most women above 26-27 are used up.

In the end, I think this subreddit and the manosphere has helped me understand that women are just people (hi feminists!) and absolutely not the angels that they are made out to be. The only woman who is an angel is my mother, and surely, she was a bitch to someone else at some point.

TRP calibrates my interactions and helps me understand the world around me.

StuffBetweenThings · 2013-05-03T02:54:15+00:00

I do have opinions that I think are correct but it goes against public opinion

Of course TRP dwellers are the bad guys - if your personal ethics are defined by easy to regurgitate public opinions for the purpose of re-enforcing your own self-worth.

I think TRP philosophy came about because a lot of guys were blindly following public opinion and later realizing it just doesn't make sense to them and so they seeked further information. TRP is not about thrusting its views upon everyone, it's an encouraging atmosphere where open minded people can discuss and analyze gender values from a perspective that acknowledges the effects of the status quo. It's up to the reader to do as they please with what ever information is presented.

I'd suggest, just like any other source of information, that nothing be taken as purely factual without questioning the values and motives of those involved and try to maintain objectivity when forming your own opinion.

Alwaysd23 · 2013-05-03T03:33:40+00:00

There are people here who are truly negative, There are some here that simply wish to learn. No subreddit is perfect.

Futsushi · 2013-05-03T04:25:12+00:00

There are many good answers posted in this thread and in some cases you are actively trying to upset people and get them to give you some shitty answer you can post on SRS or something.

Posting crap like "I thought only women can show emotion" just shows how bad you are at this.

Red Pill is more a philosophy to me. It helped me to not be angry at women for acting they way they do. I love women and I am happily married. Before I started looking at this side of things or "taking the redpill" I was very passive and weak in my marriage, this was a bad thing.

Now, I have lost weight and gone to the gym. I am working on all those things that will make me a better person (outside and in, college and gym).

My wife has point blank told me that she is much happier now, and has fallen in love with me again. I am leading a much more fulfilling life, I spend much less time here on the internet and more time outside. It really has changed my life.

So, insult away and bash people if you want. Run back to wherever and show them how crazy we are all, maybe then they will like you and you can have lots of women tell you how proud they are of you... but I doubt it.

We have crazy people post here, just like everywhere else, and sometimes they say stupid stuff. I am not responsible for any other single post other than my own. Many of the posts here are articulate and right on point, if you don't like the point then go away.

RedPill Theory: I do not need to blow out everyone else's candle just to make mine look brighter!

TehGinjaNinja · 2013-05-02T21:42:23+00:00

Yes, western world is lousy place to be a man

Compared to what? Men in the developing world may retain a higher social status relative to their women, but their quality of life generally is less optimal than that of the average western male.

It's easy to lose perspective when reading through this subreddit. I've noticed a tendency on the part of commentators here to focus strongly on the most negative aspects of modern social dynamics. This results in an exaggeration of how bad things actually are.

Take marriage and the risk of divorce theft as an example. Reading this sub you might think most marriages are doomed because of the financial incentives for women to divorce their husbands. The reality is that divorce rates spiked up in the '60s and have been trending down since the '70s.

Currently the odds are that most marriages made in the U.S. today will succeed. The odds for men are about 56%. Those aren't great odds, but they're better than the unmitigated disaster you might expect from some of the rhetoric here.

I've also noticed an tendency here to blame women for the current state of affairs, and frankly I think that's counter productive.

Yes, women's behavior is a driving force behind a lot of the problems we discuss here, but that behavior is the product of evolution not ill-intent. Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim and hamsters gotta hamster. We should just accept that and use it towards our advantage.

Yes, feminism is a driving force behind a lot of the problems we discuss here, but women are victims of feminism too. The changes wrought in our society over the past 40 years have made women less happy than they used to be.

Now a large cohort of women who were raised to believe they could have it all are hitting the wall, unable to find a man and facing a long lonely old age. These poor women are hurt and baffled, just like a lot of the guys here, because it turns out that the real world doesn't work the way feminism told them it should.

As frustrating as they can be to deal with, modern western women are more deserving of our pity than they are of our anger.

Gentle-Mang · 2013-05-02T22:26:39+00:00

It is great that you have the kind of self-awareness to actually question your own views like this. It's a healthy sign I think.

DEVi4TION · 2013-05-02T22:47:26+00:00

No, we arent the bad guy here. Time for that expounding that men are so good at.

The american female (im assuming youre american) power structure is specifically designed to strip away our rights in the name of some faux equality. Think about it. Name one law on the books that subjugates women to the abuses of men. Take your time, im gonna go make an old fashoned.

Okay im back. Now, did you come up with any? No, and neither did i. Now lets talk about how alimony is disgustingly one sided. Lets talk about how men have to fight for custody (even when we prove that the mother is a terrible parent). Shit, lets talk about how women are assumed to be better parents, teachers, and caregivers (check your privelege bitchlords). Lets talk about how domestic abuse is a fucking joke when it happens to men. Lets talk about the shaming of male rape victims. Lets talk about how a man can be ~~convicted~~ accused of rape and his life gets fucking destroyed.

They label us "bad guys" because we dont buy into the systemic oppression of men. Dr. Martin Luther King was labeled a "bad guy" for the exact same reason (but, you know, with black people). Other people on other subreddits talk about us constantly because they dont like the content here, but they dont have the fortitude to come and actually have a fucking conversation or ask a damn question. Instead, they hide amidst the safety of the herd and spew ad hominems about the people here rather than address the points we make.

If we were stupid (like SRS), a hate group (like r/nig), we would be ignored but we arent. We even have a subreddit that spawned because of the bluepillers' passive-aggressive tendencies (r/thebluepill, a subreddit that many of us have been banned from because they ~~are fucking pussies~~ have a differing viewpoint and ~~abuse their power~~ encourage "on-topic" discussion).

[deleted] · 2013-05-03T01:14:37+00:00

My dude, we are the gender that gets to deal with the world's pathetic problems. We get shit on for having flesh between our legs, ridiculed for being masculine, and shamed/guilted into doing things for the profit of women. The tables are turned against us before were even born, and you know what, I wouldn't have it any other way. The more we are battered with societies horseshit, the more denser and immune to it we get. We become the only species on the planet that can and have dealt with the bs of getting through life with the deck stacked against us. Women don't have that luxury!!

Isn't it fantastic to realize that you got to where you are because you slaved away countless hours of solid work? Girls don't ever feel that kind of success!! If this kind of mentality makes me the bad guy, then fuck it! Lets rob a bank! If your gonna do the time, mind as well do the crime.

[deleted] · 2013-05-03T07:48:43+00:00

We're not the 'bad guys' but we're certainly adversarial in the post-industrial world.

Think of it this way; women would not hold the power they have now if it weren't for industry and modern civilization.

Humans are incredibly tenacious and over tens of thousands of years we've adapted to many different environments. Generally uncontrolled environments like climate and predators. We're at the top of the food chain with incredible intelligence and that is in NO small part due to our dimorphous gender system. The two-gender system has a myriad of utility from everything to social interaction, tactics, survival, and genetic improvement. You don't need to be a genius to see that generally when one gender tries to take on the role of another gender they just get in the way, and if they are forced to continue this role-reversal it causes long term damage, especially for female psyche (who are victims to their own system).

Imagine a world where through forced sexual selection or genetic manipulation we eliminate all dimorphous traits until the genders are truly equal. We've lost our ace-in-the-hole as a species. We've lost the tenacity to survive in any situation. We're now slaves to industry and whoever pulls the trigger makes the rules.

If civilization took a dive tomorrow and our money meant nothing, our machines didn't work, our laws had no power I can guarantee you that females would, in a heartbeat, return back to their subservient role and scramble for our protection and ingenuity.

People say there is no place for our attitude in a world where with the hand of technology women can do everything a man can do. That's fine to think, even if it's not entirely true. But if the genders were truly made equal in the name of using technology as a crutch then we are at the mercy of whoever controls the machine; to sum it up we can never go back.

If you're an atheist then evolution makes it very clear what our roles are. If you turn to religion, all religions make it just as clear what gender roles are. The only ones who say otherwise are those wanting to make a profit off of our misery. Women make up 80% of commercial purchases. Miserable women spend more money when they can't figure out what makes them so unhappy. Miserable men, while more frugal than women, are forced by the family court system to work as drones and pay that pussy tax (alimony, child support, etc.) and putting it in the hands of miserable women who buy more stupid shit to try and make themselves happy..

It's a genius plan run by greedy MEN who put out dazzling media and propagate bleeding-heart ideals. We're their adversaries. Not women's, not men's, not children's. Theirs.

But the 'bad guy'? Never. I'm one half of a great system belonging to the greatest species on the planet. I'm proud of that.

[deleted] · 2013-05-03T08:34:03+00:00

How many of us are actually basement dwelling neck beards?

ubercoolhipsterguy · 2013-05-02T19:48:17+00:00

Shame is the mechanism that has historically been used to keep men in line.

Those examples are just that in action. Treat it like the current when swimming upstream -- inevitable, but meaningless.

baconOclock · 2013-05-03T00:51:08+00:00

There's too much approval seeking lately and not enough not giving a fuck and proudly owning your shit.

Who cares about their approval? Which you'll never get btw.

If you come here to debate, that's perfectly fine but we do not owe anyone anything.

Don't let this sub become pussyfied.

[deleted] · 2013-05-03T08:32:17+00:00

Note to self: Upvote less butthurt in this subreddit.

Deansdale · 2013-05-03T08:58:38+00:00

When I read what posters in other subs think about us I can't help but wonder is it us that are the bad guys?

Do you think they have considered anything similar? I don't think so. They don't have to, they are always right because they are the good guys^TM

md619 · 2013-05-02T19:44:05+00:00

Does it matter if they think we're the bad guys?

The-Internets · 2013-05-02T23:33:36+00:00

[deleted]

Demonspawn · 2013-05-02T19:46:41+00:00

I do have opinions that I think are correct but it goes against public opinion.

Society is sick, insane, and self destructive. The means acting in a healthy and sane manner is seen as not socially acceptable.

SuperNinKenDo · 2013-05-03T05:28:55+00:00

Not a logical argument in sight? Good. Nothing but petty insults and stereotyping? Good. No need to worry then.

[deleted] · 2013-05-03T02:40:38+00:00

"TheRedPill is Satan's personal garden of low hanging fruit."

oh wow, i really enjoyed that one for some reason

W-Z-R · 2013-05-16T18:19:40+00:00

I was on your side until you said there is no spousal rape, just because she is married does not mean you have the right to have sex with her whenever you want regardless of her wishes. That's fucked up buddy.

The Red Pill is only bad insofar as it seeks to game social psychology rather than just being yourself and hoping, then again, it evens things up for people who did not have the fortune to happen to be raised to be what women want. Most people who moan, however are just angry because moaning is easier than self-examining, so carry on (but perhaps you should show your wife a bit more respect.)

yankeetiger · 2013-06-02T00:15:10+00:00

To these accusations I say: who the fuck cares? We're scumbags? So what. We're the dregs of society? Not relevant. We're bigoted, misogynistic, and judgmental? Cool story bro.

We're here because we want to get laid. And we judge ourselves by the fruits of that labor, and nothing else. Being good people isn't why we swallowed the red pill. And to that extent, we do extraordinarily well- we've seen enough evidence to know that women love a red pill man.

As for hating and blaming women for our problems, a quick look through the posts will tell the observer that what we truly despise is not the slut who rides the carousel, but rather the supplicating beta who allows himself to be used.

dmahan · 2013-05-02T19:44:31+00:00

Well, considering that merely alright women go for 150 on escort sites, and we learn how to barter the price down to gas and condom money, they think we're taking advantage of their innocence.

delta_hedge · 2013-05-02T21:47:48+00:00

for a theory, the amount people opposing the theory do not matter. in nazi germany 100 highly dignified scientists and writer wrote a text against einsteins relativity theory. his response:

"If I were wrong, then one would have been enough!"

what matters is coherence and how good a theory explains empirics. and here redpill theory wins hands down vs the bluepill /white knight bullcrap you hear in mainstream media.

Ricky_Spanissh · 2013-05-02T23:20:46+00:00

In a way, we are. The problem is, nobody, not even ones closest to you will respect you just for being a "good guy". They'll give you good guy advice, but in the end, when you're fucked for being good, you can only blame yourself and you won't get any points for being "good". Objectivism etc is obviously ridiculously stupid, but there has to be a balance. That's the super-meta-red pill.

Raw_God · 2013-05-03T07:32:17+00:00

Yes I'm a bad guy to sad-eyed cubicle drones and their fat wives, I'm an infidel to 2 billlion Muslims, a heathen to another billion devout Christians, whatever. Tell me why I should give a fuck.

karma1337a · 2013-05-04T20:42:11+00:00

there is no spousal rape.

If your wife is crying in the corner, pushing you away and begging for you leave her alone, and you force yourself on her, that's rape.

furrysparks · 2013-05-03T14:31:52+00:00

There is no spousal rape

What, so because you're married both parties have to succumb to the other's every will?

boolean_sledgehammer · 2013-05-03T17:40:25+00:00

Everyone is a slave to their own biases until they live the experience. Experience is the great equalizer. It doesn't give two shits what you want to believe.

A lot of redditors have their standard go-to subreddits upon which they can heap all of their pent-up frustration and derision, just as the rest of us are susceptible to attaching our misgivings to convenient scapegoats. It's a trick our brain plays on us in order to maintain a coherent framework. Whether or not that framework is accurate is ultimately immaterial to your brain. It's a cruel joke of nature how we often have to struggle to maintain a healthy sense of congruence with our experiences and our perception of reality, but it's a battle that's worth fighting.

I'm sure this particular subreddit will be a convenient and easy target for the foreseeable future. That doesn't particularly bother me. I have little use for the imaginary points that get rewarded to those who post familiar narratives that make us feel warm and fuzzy. I'm not a representative of this place. When it comes to the red pill philosophies, all I have to offer are my own experiences. You can take it or leave it. The question of whether or not others choose to realign their beliefs with the realities of the sexual marketplace is entirely up to them. I gain nothing by "bringing them over" to a "side" that only exists in their minds.

Do I get tired of the steady influx of posts that have nothing to offer other than woman bashing? You bet I do. It's juvenile and unconstructive.

Am I tired of reading thinly-veiled humble-brag posts about how some douche hound harnessed his inner alpha and totally scored with some ridiculous and imaginary female archetype? Fuck yes. Air out your silliness r/fanfiction.

Are women the enemy? Of course not. That's fucking stupid. Women just have different biological imperatives than we do. If you ask me, the red pill is about little more than recognizing those imperatives and learning how to effectively navigate them.

Is society becoming increasingly feminized? To an extent, I certainly think it is. There is an entire generation of man-boys out there who were raised without positive male influences in their lives to show them how to be good, fully-integrated, and self-actualized men. They were raised to believe that masculinity is an undesirable quantity that needs to be weeded out of young boys, and they were fed a lot of incorrect views on male and female interpersonal relationships. Women aren't entirely to blame for this. They were given the same bad information we were, and they're just following the shitty patterns that were given to them.

I don't consider myself a bad person. I consider myself a pragmatic one. People are going to believe what they want to believe. They'll either learn or they won't. I have little control over whatever snap judgements other are going to make about me. If they want an honest discussion, I'm happy to give them one. Otherwise, I honestly don't give a fuck.

Costafarian · 2013-05-24T16:35:29+00:00

I've only been on this sub for a month, maybe less. And a lot of the points I've come across have been opinions that I've sort of summed up in my lifetime.

Not trying to say I came up with it first, but merely I'm glad that I found a place like this were a group of men can talk about this "controversial" topic without bias. (Or maybe with?)

Needless to say, people read what they want to read. Many people take a lot of things posted on the internet way too personally and it really gets to them for some reason.

But I think what you're seeing is people acting based on what the surface of this sub looks like to an average viewer. I mean, I feel this place is for self-improvement for men. If people look at us as "women hating neckbeards" then let them. I know that I'm not here to blame women for my own problems, thats not what a man would do.

A man accepts that there is something wrong within himself and must do whats best to fix it. This is a place that I believe is just for that. And to meet others for support and advice and discussion.

Being a man is accepting that something is wrong, and taking the opportunity to fix it. Rather than what the general population would do, which is "love yourself and don't change." Which TRP identifies as a big problem with men because we all believed at one point that there "is a woman out there for us somewhere."

I don't think thats the case anymore, I think its the opposite now. We're here to become high-status and successful men so that the women will come to us and try to impress us instead. Because thats how society has changed lately.

Bottom line is, we're all here to become confident with ourselves and learn to become better men.

If someone comes here and assumes that we're here to blame women for everything, then clearly they didn't read about us enough.

[deleted] · 2013-09-03T14:19:53+00:00

Lesson 1.

You seem to think there are the good guys and the bad guys. This is wrong. There are no good guys. There are only bad guys, its just that some of them are on different teams.

Lord_Perseus · 2013-05-02T23:45:09+00:00

To quote Obi-Wan "it's all a matter of perspective. While I am someone who strongly this line of thinking as it often pertains to moral relativism in this case it does matter.

Within the confines of the manosphere we are sensible rational individuals who have seen the world go all to fuck around us & feel powerless to do anything about it. But sadly the manosphere & the views of its denizens are most certainly not in sync with the larger world, thankfully.

In the eyes of the matriarchy we are monsters, dangerous individuals who refuse to submit to the poisonous order they have imposed upon us. Feminazis & their manginas appeasers are irrational, hyper-emotional creatures who've painted us & our "evil" demands for respect & fairness. I think the following quote from the Dark Knight best describes how they view us:

They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

We are the bad guys in the eyes of the feminazis & their allies & I say good. The villains have fewer limits, fewer self-imposed rules upon their conduct, fewer qualms about inflicting damage upon their enemies & the world at large. They are not burdened about thoughts of collateral damage & its consequences.

So keep this in mind & revel in your villain status. Put on your black hat & burn the matriarchy to the fucking ground

Imissspeel · 2013-05-03T05:50:31+00:00

typical woman who thinks her feelings are facts.

ysef95 · 2013-05-02T22:27:11+00:00

bad and good are just subjective ideas which differ from person to person of course to them we are "bad" and to us we are "good" personally redpill ideology helps me best maximise my utility( i get what i want most from life) so Im gonna continue to follow it, thats all i really think matters when choosing what to believe in.

[deleted] · 2013-05-06T18:53:03+00:00

You guys are all just upset that you can't find any semblance of a meaningful relationship with a woman so you take out your frustrations on a forum. I pity you. I hope you figure out that this stuff isn't going to help you get laid before you're a 60 year old virgin.

redpillschool · 2013-05-03T03:00:17+00:00

I have to say as a male and someone who has only just seen this subreddit I have to say I am slightly disgusted by what you people believe and say.

I specifically think everything you listed there about spousal rape and men being more oppressed is completely asinine and makes me embarrassed to be a male in the same way a group of KKK members makes me embarrassed to be white.

Im flabbergasted, especially as an anthropologist, that you would even entertain the idea that history was worse for men than women....that is just ridiculous.

I truly hope you deeply consider these beliefs and explore the epistemological journey you took to come to them.

Title	Are we the bad guys but we don't get it?
Author	throwaway4548
Upvotes	71
Comments	189
Date	May 2, 2013 7:36 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1dkjjk/are_we_the_bad_guys_but_we_dont_get_it/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/are-we-the-bad-guys-but-we-dont-get-it.4187 https://theredarchive.com/post/4187

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