Discussing MGTOW with Anteros

Niko_Choski · 2016-07-24T20:07:47+00:00

Since I have a special - derp - relationship with both communities, I thought I might do a chat with Anteros about the disagreements the Red Pill has with...

[–]Modredpillschool[M] [score hidden] 10 years ago stickied comment (32 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points21 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sir_wankalot_here 14 points15 points16 points 10 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorNightwingTRP 22 points23 points24 points 10 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

MGTOW being attacked by feminist groups does not make logical sense since they theoretically want to be left alone to do their own thing.

It makes more sense for them to attack MGTOW because these are the men checking out of the game altogether. These are the men that women have completely lost. Each man removed from the game makes the game more difficult for women regardless of whether they're riding the CC, trying to pin down an alpha or following AF/BB as a strategy or looking to nail down their BB meal ticket. The core of MGTOW is right, women need the game but men can take it or leave it. This is why our biggest card, to walk away, is the most powerful card it's possible to play.

Remember, everything that benefits feminism is won off the backs of men. None of them actually do anything useful themselves, nor do they tend to front policies that help women to help themselves. They look for special privileges along with maximisation of female privilege and the pussy pass.

[–]sir_wankalot_here 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Questionablechoice 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It happening in other countries too it's just not reported on. A friend of mind teaches high school science in Canada and only a small portion of the graduating class even express interest in sexual relationships. Many come from single mother households and want nothing to do with women.

What is striking is these are largely a group of young men with the highest level of T in their life time and in an environment where women are literally forced to associate. They want nothing to do with them as a group.

He is of the opinion that we are reaching the point of the mouse utopia experiment in which the population free fall is around the corner.

He has even had female students confide in him about there being a lack of interested boys in the school.

The western collapse may not come by the sword or the plow but by ennui.

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorNightwingTRP 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

No, they only want the top 20% who are very very reluctant to leave the game in any case. The MGTOW might as well be invisible.

Beta is the backup option. Once she's hit the wall hard enough, she'll accept a beta provider. What you refer to there as the invisible MGTOW are the omegas. I suspect MGTOW has a combination of alphas, betas and omegas. While I doubt they miss the omegas, the others are all men leaving the game that women do not want to leave the game - whether they're the prime option or the backup is irrelevant. Omegas aside, each man out of the game makes life harder for women. This is why MGTOWs still get blasted despite the fact that really nobody should give a fuck since they're checking out of the game. My point stands.

Can? sure, its never been easier to quit. Should? No way.

That was an illustrative fact actually. Designed to back my actual point about the most important card in the male hand. (That which underlies dread itself.) That "should" bit you put implies you would take MGTOW off the table entirely which doesn't appear to be the position of the TRP sub:

So I don't consider MGTOW to be wrong or at odds with TRP. I do think from a personal standpoint that they have a different conclusion as to what will bring them happiness, but I don't blame them for their decisions and conclusions. As such, we have a MGTOW flair here on the forum and I consider them just as much brothers as anybody else here.

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorNightwingTRP 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Betas are a commodity at all stages (they're the 80%). Less betas does not make the game any harder for women, the only thing thats harder for them at that stage is acceptance of the fact that they've hit the wall. There is no shortage of victims, no matter what greek letter Vox Day calls them.

You need to complete your logic now and explain why women try to shame MGTOWs back into the game if they're so irrelevant and invisible.

The flaw I see is that women can't achieve the AF/BB strategy if the BB has gone MGTOW. So loss of betas/victims from the pool does make the game harder for women.

I've been pretty clear about my views regarding MGTOW, its not only an implication. They are indeed welcomed here, but we will still tell them to get their acts together. It's inevitable since TRP's experienced men naturally mentor inexperienced men when they see them fouling up.

I don't think it's our role to live other men's lives for them. Simply give them the knowledge and let them make their own mind up. If they're fouling up in achieving their goals, that's fine we'll sort it out. It's not our job to save everyone. If they don't want to bother with women anymore after seeing the truth, that's their choice and the responsibility lies with them, not anyone on TRP. Besides, there's nothing I can say to a faggot to stop them being a faggot.

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You need to complete your logic now and explain why women try to shame MGTOWs back into the game if they're so irrelevant and invisible.

You mean "I have a question", I should've pointed out the feminine instigation tone from your previous comment. In any case, I'll try and help. In the SMP. the 80% including MGTOW are irrelevant until a woman is forced to fight for scraps, a non-ideal situation all around. Very often, shame works yet when it comes from a woman to a guy who has been watching 24/7 divorce rape with no way out (read: most MGTOW content) it will fall on deaf ears and be fought against. Just like if you tell them you have a happy 8 year relationship.

The flaw I see is that women can't achieve the AF/BB strategy if the BB has gone MGTOW. So loss of betas/victims from the pool does make the game harder for women.

A problem that can easily be solved with a tinder account. There are always victims out there.

Simply give them the knowledge and let them make their own mind up.

Again, this gives people way too much credit. In particular its giving too much credit to inexperienced people. There is no known replacement for SMP experience, only shit analogies that help losers get to sleep at night.

If they're fouling up in achieving their goals, that's fine we'll sort it out. It's not our job to save everyone. If they don't want to bother with women anymore after seeing the truth, that's their choice and the responsibility lies with them, not anyone on TRP. Besides, there's nothing I can say to a faggot to stop them being a faggot.

Thats alright. Leadership is not for everyone. I'm happy to direct these young fellas towards building themselves up, its not rocket science and many of us have been in their shoes already.

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorNightwingTRP 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You mean "I have a question", I should've pointed out the feminine instigation tone from your previous comment.

It was not a question. It was a statement of fact on what was required to complete the logic and unify your theory regarding irrelevancy of some men. As with my targets in any discussion or argument, I am attempting to get at the truth. Your passive aggressive opening and reinterpretation of my statement through manipulation of tone is an argument in bad faith. You should not do that with anyone if you are looking to learn. As per my guide, I don't continue arguments in bad faith, (since you can't learn in such discussions) or with people who disengage as you demonstrated here:

There is no known replacement for SMP experience, only shit analogies that help losers get to sleep at night.

It disengages from the point of individuality and makes a point which has a veneer of relevance, but doesn't actually matter. Whether people are experienced or not is irrelevant to whether they should make up their own mind. Whether they make the right or wrong choice, is again, irrelevant to the principle. That disagreement then goes into a nuance around practicality that does not come out with a concrete conclusion and instead becomes a value judgement. That's something I simply don't have any interest in discussing with you since I believe it would waste time for both of us for zero gain.

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It was not a question. It was a statement of fact on what was required to complete the logic and unify your theory regarding irrelevancy of some men. As with my targets in any discussion or argument, I am attempting to get at the truth. Your passive aggressive opening and reinterpretation of my statement through manipulation of tone is an argument in bad faith. You should not do that with anyone if you are looking to learn. As per my guide, I don't continue arguments in bad faith, (since you can't learn in such discussions) or with people who disengage as you demonstrated here:

Uh huh. Go on with this ~~ego defense~~ non-continuation.

It disengages from the point of individuality and makes a point which has a veneer of relevance, but doesn't actually matter. Whether people are experienced or not is irrelevant to whether they should make up their own mind.

You're just repeating the problem we already covered. Telling a lopsided story about the SMP is lying by abstention to these young men, its no surprise they retreat. TRP is the beginning of an answer for them. Letting them "make up their own mind" is a cop-out which does them a disservice. Experience is the best teacher, none of these young men are learning how to manage their adrenaline response based off of the internet or off of any other activity (even though it seems possible, its not) which is why they are being set up for SMP failure by MGTOW.

That disagreement then goes into a nuance around practicality that does not come out with a concrete conclusion and instead becomes a value judgement.

Value judgements are OK by me. Again, leadership is not for everyone. Stand aside if you wish.

That's something I simply don't have any interest in discussing with you since I believe it would waste time for both of us for zero gain.

Retreat, what a surprise.

[–]Shanguerrilla 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]PreciselyUnclear 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PreciselyUnclear 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

It seems almost counter intuitive, one would assume that the PUAs would get the most attacked and MGTow left alone. This is true for traditional societies were in japan for instance "herbivore" men make up a staggering portion of the population, and yet they are accepted while in western country the same mentality is shamed. It reminds me of being an atheist growing up in a small christian town. Religious people tend to have a ready acceptance with other religious people, but absolutely nothing will piss them off more than an athiest, as somebody who flat out refuses to play their game. If others realize that walking away from the table is an option then the whole illusion quickly breaks down, While Red Pill gives women the illusion that they can still tame Chad Thundercock and suck resources from him some day.

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[–]Shanguerrilla 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I definitely agree, I'm actually not very familiar at all with the MGTOW subreddit though if you're basing it on that. To me (and I'll point out it was a misplaced generalization and bias that I more and more have grown from) I viewed MGTOW as on the same road as TRP, but having stopped along the side and never continued on what the journey had to offer. I used to feel like it was shortsighted and misplaced to determine that you don't want women to manipulate or take over your life any more... by literally disrupting your life and taking over a philosophy that in its avoidance of women orbits avoiding them. It seemed like quitting playing poker instead of continuously learning which hands to hit and which to fold on.

As I've gotten older and had more eye-opening experiences and surprises.. and gotten more involved in men's rights and whatnot, I do think there is much more depth and variation (and value) and less generalization in each though.

[–]NietzscheExplosion 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]chooseaburner 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As such, we have a MGTOW flair here on the forum and I consider them just as much brothers as anybody else here.

If there's a flaw with MGTOW it's that it's even more predisposed than TRP to get populated with people who are looking for an excuse to check out on life. Except, where TRP becomes a self masturbatory exercise for these types of people, MGTOW is a complete lifestyle.

There's a difference between the MGTOW who's played the field, and after maybe a decade or two of chasing tail is done with it, and the MGTOW who's really just looking for an excuse that both recognizes that their life situation isn't really their fault- just as how you can look to the mother to see the future of the daughter, you can look to the son and anticipate what kind of environment their parents built for him, surprise, most parents are uninvolved and expect their sons to just get it- but then goes further and makes no expectation for them to clean up the mess anyways.

There are less-than-glamorous terms used to describe people who will swear off something they haven't even tried because the concept seems complicated or risky.

[–]Questionablechoice 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]blue_dover28 points 10 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Niko_Choski 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Code_Bordeauxx 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (71 children) | Copy Link

I once wrote the following: MGTOW has a bad rep in TRP because it is TRP, unless you try to define it as different, ending up with something inferior in the process.

Allow me to explain.

So, here's my personal frustration with MGTOW: everytime it becomes the topic of discussion, people will claim something along the lines of 'no, MGTOW isn't about abandoning women completely, it's about putting your own interests first'. Again in this video. And the statement is (at least partially) true, I see it in the MGTOW community. But it leaves me with a burning question that I haven't found an answer to:

If this is the case, how is this philosophy different, or more important still, how is this a better alternative to this subreddit?

Because putting your own interests first is exactly what I read here, how I know this place. The only difference is that TRP has stronger emphasis on working strategies for dealing with women, when these situations arise. Now, of course everyone is free to allign themselves with whatever philosophy they like best, but when the differences between MGTOW and TRP are discussed, the question needs to be asked: what is the added value of MGTOW, coming from a RP perspective?

Thus far, it is my personal belief that there is very little. But the downsides to MGTOW are very clearly visible; if dealing with women is still part of the philosophy, then the lack of information on HOW to do this is problematic. And one cannot deny that a substantial part of its members use it as an excuse for their unwillingness to better themselves.

I think this other comment of mine sums up my thoughts quite well:

My problem with 'MGTOW' has always been the mixed signals and defininitions that people amongst their own ranks come up with and none of them really make sense considering the alternatives.

First there's the obvious interpretation that MGTOWs are people who completely abandon women. While somewhat understandable, this is denying yourself a basic biological necessity. And unlike marriage, it frankly hasn't come to the point yet where the costs/risks of casual sexual encounters outweigh the benefits in this regard. Certainly not if you know to avoid the dangerous waters. Girls may be misguided, the majority isn't evil. In essence, this form of MGTOW is too strongly influenced by fear, if not just an excuse for plain incapability.

Then there are the MGTOWs claiming that they're not giving up women/sex at all, but they just stop "pursuing" it. I still believe that those people haven't yet realised that TRP isn't PUA, and that they're basically preaching TRP philosophy under a different label. Both TRP and and this MGTOW interpretation centers around focussing on your own interests and development, letting women follow as a natural result. The only difference is that TRP adds elements of game to the mix which -no matter how often you plan on using it- is form of knowledge on how the world works. There's no good reason for turning a blind eye to it. In this interpretation it's just a weaker form of TRP.

And then there are those who remove the lifestyle element of MGTOW and present it as a phase, just like OP does. This may be the most reasonable form in TRP context, but this also turns it into a small element of the much larger picture that TRP presents. (We commonly call it monk mode). Also, the last word isn't said about monk mode; while it may be effective for some who start at the very bottom, if you're not entirely repulsive to women you'd better start approaching and engaging with them from day one to build experience and confidence. In this reduced 'phase form' it's certainly not the big manosphere pillar that others present it to be.

I -and I think many others- still haven't been properly explained which sensible niche MGTOW fills, so I continue to believe there isn't one. It appears to be sustained by irrational fear, misunderstanding of TRP and a significant amount of people who just use it to rationalise their InCel status. That, for a large part, explains the criticism it receives.

I'd love to hear your thoughs on this.

[–]enfier20 points 10 years ago* [recovered] (48 children) | Copy Link

It seems perfectly rational to me. Historically, only 50% of men have managed to pass their genes along. As a rough estimate, you could say men that are SMV 5 and up have an opportunity to choose the Beta lifestyle. Men that are SMV 8 and up can use the Alpha mating strategy. You might not be the guy that gets your wife wet, but you've got a check and you will stick around and so you trade commitment for sex and end up fulfilling your biological imperative. These days you can even paternity test your kids and even if divorce happens, it's not the end of the world.

You can surely bump your SMV up, but it takes time and hard work. Most guys can probably jump 1 or 2 points just by responding to shit tests and dressing well, but the rest of the points takes a lot of time in the gym, professional success and learning to add value to social interactions. It's plain old hard work and the payoff takes time. Up in the 9-10 range of SMV you are significantly handicapped by some things that aren't in your control such as height, social status and genetics. I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just yet more work.

If your SMV is around 2, you don't care to sign up for the beta deal and you haven't got a decade to devote to clawing your SMV up to 8 then why bother? You could forget women, put all that effort into your own goals instead and enjoy yourself. If getting laid is the goal, $6k a month will buy you a $200 escort every day of the month. Of course if you are 18 and at an SMV of 2 then I'd suggest you spend the actual decade fixing it, but if you are 42? I can see opting out of that game.

Sure, some of those guys are voting themselves out of the gene pool, but at the same they weren't really competitors anyways. I'm not sure TRP would be a huge help past identifying where they stand, most of it is directed towards attracting women.

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (43 children) | Copy Link

Historically, only 50% of men have managed to pass their genes along.

So what? Historically people died of smallpox and were eaten by animals more often.

men that are SMV 5 and up have an opportunity to choose the Beta lifestyle.

The betas of today have little options in the marketplace. More importantly a mans SMV is not as static as you're describing. For example: A man with low SMV at work could be a very high SMV at his local bar. As you cover later on, it can be improved further by some hard work but you did not note that this work gets easier over time.

If your SMV is around 2, you don't care to sign up for the beta deal and you haven't got a decade to devote to clawing your SMV up to 8 then why bother?

As discussed, making a family will reap larger rewards than all the other stuff a man can do, including fantastical hobbies. Thats why bother. Also, the person in question is missing out on feminine balance brought to our lives by having a great relationship. SMP quitters get themselves to sleep at night by saying that women are only good for sex. A view born from inexperience.

You could forget women, put all that effort into your own goals instead and enjoy yourself.

This is so enticing and has never been easier. Which is why it's such a common poison.

If getting laid is the goal, $6k a month will buy you a $200 escort every day of the month

The self-respect one pays was not factored in here, a typical error.

Sure, some of those guys are voting themselves out of the gene pool, but at the same they weren't really competitors anyways.

Checking out is the eventual outcome of consuming the lopsided story that I've seen coming from MGTOW. Who cares if these young men were SMP competitors? they're suffering and need a hand.

I'm not sure TRP would be a huge help past identifying where they stand, most of it is directed towards attracting women.

Then you must be new here. The sidebar has a bunch of flairs that are not PUA material yet outline sexual strategies and outcomes. Simply identifying where someone is only makes guys who need to label themselves as <insert useless greek letter here> males and gives them an easy release from making the mistakes/unpalatable actions they fear so much.

[–]Unholy_VI17 points 10 years ago* [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Benny757 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

You certainly were sounding defensive. I get your points. You have much good to say. But don't feed into these guys in here so much. Leads to much bickering. We know there's a ton of anger seething throughout many of the 160000 plus members here.

I'm an older guy. Family obviously is important. But the climate for family as we knew it is dead, and/or dying. Nothing you or I say is going to change that. These are the millennials, and the younger member. Particularly for women, but for men too. Why has it gone this way? Because they do not need a safety net anymore. Food, clothing, and shelter is there for little effort. No Maslow's hierarchy of needs where necessities are a must, and you must work and fight for them. This is entitlement land. No incentive to work, have families, and with the hook-up culture out there, the the nuclear family is dead. Very unfortunate. Very unfortunate for young guys wanting to be men.

About the "to hell with families...." I mean that statement in and of itself was ridiculous. Shouted out of anger. Foolish. You needn't even have replied to that nonsense. It didn't deserve one.

In defense of MGTOW, I believe that the movement can mean any number of paths where men simply don't buy into the aspect of justifying themselves and their lives to women. In any fashion chosen, this can be very empowering because it changes the dynamics of the current feminist-manipulated male/female relationship.

Men going MGTOW likely aren't doing it permanently, though some are. Young men, by choosing some form of MGTOW, can teach themselves to become independent, and find the ways of "Man" again. Upon return, they have gained perspective, and can be much more successful in the modern dating and relationship climate that they find themselves in. They indeed have armed themselves.

I follow MGTOW because I learned that I needed to go in that direction. It helped me find peace, and brought me freedom, to "simmer" down so to speak. I had come to learn that I simply couldn't be in a relationship for a while. For me it may last forever. For others, who can say when they will return.

I don't feel that MGTOW as a philosophy advocates that very young guys give up all hope forever, etc, etc. Many members advocate against this, and tell these young guys so. I see this kind of advice on MGTOW reddit quite often.

Anyhow, that was long-winded. Anteros, I was just catching a nasty vibe that was all defensive coming from you directed towards those ridiculous posters that always have hate and anger to spout. Plus I wanted to defend MGTOW a bit.

We carry on.

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks for this well thought out response.

But don't feed into these guys in here so much. Leads to much bickering. We know there's a ton of anger seething throughout many of the 160000 plus members here.

Anger is not a phase. In fact it is one of the things I wish to encourage in MGTOW, I want them to be angry enough to leave their basements, angry enough to put down the video games and porn. Maybe even angry enough to say hello to the cute girl at school (sure this is not best done in anger but I assume you get my point). Anger is the great enemy of over-intellectualization (what MGTOW do instead of experiencing life). I can take all of their little basement dweller anger. I've been helping boys like them in our IRC channel for years now.

Why has it gone this way? Because they do not need a safety net anymore. Food, clothing, and shelter is there for little effort. No Maslow's hierarchy of needs where necessities are a must, and you must work and fight for them.

Mooching has existed for all of humanity. I believe that most MGTOW are probably doing some form of mooching as well. This is poison for a mans soul. As I mentioned on the call (and to the chagrin of MGTOW) : Women and children are yearning for male leadership, they may not have the words for it but they are. Add in the fact that taking MGTOW out of the gene pool takes high IQ genes out too and we have a bigger problem than basement dwellers on their own.

About the "to hell with families...." I mean that statement in and of itself was ridiculous. Shouted out of anger. Foolish. You needn't even have replied to that nonsense. It didn't deserve one.

By making such a strong prescription and supporting it with facts from reality (not some likely erroneous survey study) I've created a point where there must be a decision made. Either I'm right or the "lets them be happy" crowd is right. This division is intentional. The intellectual coddling and Eat,Pray,Love cushion that men can easily make today is something that should be shunned and I'm happy to do it, no matter how angry the boys get.

In defense of MGTOW, I believe that the movement can mean any number of paths where men simply don't buy into the aspect of justifying themselves and their lives to women. In any fashion chosen, this can be very empowering because it changes the dynamics of the current feminist-manipulated male/female relationship.

They don't have a monolithic definition they stand by. While this one is agreeable by many of them as "Not caring what others think" it is not the life philosophy their trying to milk. Sure, it is empowering but nowhere near as empowering as being powerful in the first place thats why I tell young men to sleep around. If you would have told me in the year 2000 that we would have to berate young men into sleeping with young women I would have laughed, yet here we are.

Men going MGTOW likely aren't doing it permanently, though some are. Young men, by choosing some form of MGTOW, can teach themselves to become independent, and find the ways of "Man" again. Upon return, they have gained perspective, and can be much more successful in the modern dating and relationship climate that they find themselves in. They indeed have armed themselves.

They've armed themselves with over-intellectualization instead of experience. This will ensure a failed relationship later in life when the stakes are higher. Trying out MGTOW for a little while is not mithridatism, because its too easy today to check out. Returning from years of watching/reading divorce rape and "women are evil" there is no chance of a healthy relationship.

I follow MGTOW because I learned that I needed to go in that direction. It helped me find peace, and brought me freedom, to "simmer" down so to speak. I had come to learn that I simply couldn't be in a relationship for a while.

I'd like to hear more about this and what effect it had at your age. On the call we glanced at the differences in sex drives between young/old men.

I don't feel that MGTOW as a philosophy advocates that very young guys give up all hope forever, etc, etc. Many members advocate against this, and tell these young guys so. I see this kind of advice on MGTOW reddit quite often.

They can say that all day, yet providing these young men with the lopsided story only ensures the opposite.

Anyhow, that was long-winded. Anteros, I was just catching a nasty vibe that was all defensive coming from you directed towards those ridiculous posters that always have hate and anger to spout. Plus I wanted to defend MGTOW a bit.

We carry on.

Cheers

[–]Benny757 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ahhh, there you go. Well replied. I agree. It is far too easy to check out. One thing that really worries me is the long term psychological damage to boys and very young men from the blue pill narrative that has and is being instilled.

You asked about my experience and choice. I can say, at least I think, that my current choices are driven by belief models and defense mechanisms instilled when I was very young - from ages 11 to 18. Being 52 and aware of that is daunting because I realize that what mechanisms and beliefs I developed at such an early age carried forward and generally drove my life.

Coming to terms with this and trying to overcome this belief psychology has been the most difficult ongoing hurdle I have ever experienced. It is an ongoing bitch to deal with.

So, your philosophy above is actually very appealing. Getting to these young guys early and redirecting them seems extremely beneficial. Because emasculating belief psychologies remain long term. Hard-wiring does occur. I can only wish that I would have had someone to redirect me at that early age. Instead, the nice guy opposite occurred. Now, at 50 plus, I find that I can't handle a serious relationship. For my own well being, I find being a bachelor far more appealing.

As you close above, 'the lopsided story ensures the opposite.' How very true that is.

Cheers.

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[–]Unholy_VI8 points 10 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Unholy_VI16 points 10 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- -5 points-4 points-3 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]atomsk4135 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]-Anteros-1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I do not have the time nor the patience to bend over backward to accommodate the inanities of the female sex. I do what I want, regardless of what women do.

I was right earlier, you're exactly the kind of person we spoke about. Your statement here just proves my point, like the youtube comments. You're not familiar with the struggle of sexual strategy, if you were you would understand that its not "bending over backwards". Thats just your estimation because of all the MGTOW crap, its not objective or analytical in any way and the problem is that more objective analysis won't help.

By the time I am done, I will have slept with thousands of sexy women using high end escorts and sexual tourism and if I ever want them, children by a surrogate mother.

My points being (unfortunately proven) again. We covered this intellectualizing on the call and it is at the crux of the problem. People who have accomplished what you're trying to emulate will be derisive about this and insulted by your selfish fears creating a shitty environment for an innocent life. Statistics won't keep your children warm at night.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that your choice is the "wrong" one.

You're so far off the deep end that you are equating going to third world prostitutes with a healthy sex life and surrogate motherhood with actual motherhood. I don't think anyone rational would care what you considered "wrong".

I don't need it nor do I want it.

This is the lie that MGTOW tell themselves after reading 24/7 Divorce rape and hiding in their basements. Its nonsense and hopefully it stops soon.

[–]Keeping_itreal17 points 10 years ago [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

You are a rather self centered fellow, aren't you? I can't help but get the feeling that, with your collectivist mindset, you have convinced yourself that all men want what you want; that we're all looking for the same thing in life and value whatever you do. I mean, seriously, just look at your comment:

You're not familiar with the struggle of sexual strategy, if you were you would understand that its not "bending over backwards".

Interesting choice of words my friend. You call sexual strategy a struggle and then tell me it's not "bending over backward". It may not be so to you, but I am not you. I have no obligation to want to join you in this "struggle" to obtain the validation of women by them spreading their legs for me. We have different values, the validation of some random woman is too low on my list to illicit a desire to "struggle" and obtain it. I know, this is hard to understand as a self centered collectivist but it is what it is.

Thats just your estimation because of all the MGTOW crap, its not objective or analytical in any way and the problem is that more objective analysis won't help.

Remember kids! If you have nothing of value to add to a discussion, just call your opponent too dumb to understand and you can walk away feeling good about yourself.

People who have accomplished what you're trying to emulate will be derisive about this and insulted by your selfish fears creating a shitty environment for an innocent life.

Not really, whoremongering and child-rearing can be kept apart quite nicely. All it takes is a little thinking.

Statistics won't keep your children warm at night.

No they won't. I don't need a wife to do it though, so this line is meaningless. Lacking a mother does not necessarily create a shitty environment for the child. That's just traditionalist/feminist propaganda. I already dealt with it in my reply to u/Code_Bordeauxx on this thread and I won't repeat for you.

You're so far off the deep end that you are equating going to third world prostitutes with a healthy sex life

If you were less of a collectivist, you would recognize a few problems with this statement. For example, what is a healthy sex life? Who decides what it is and what gives them the authority to do so? Are they infallible? Are you just using the world "healthy" to mean the kind of sex life you personally approve of? Should I spend time, money and energy convincing women to give me a "healthy" sex life even if it doesn't make me happy?

I know that with a ego like yours, this may be difficult to understand but we don't all want what you do. I can book a flight to Bangkok tomorrow morning and fuck ten women, 8-9 out of10 on the SMV scale, by the time I am back. To me, that is more preferable than spending untold amounts of time, money and effort raising my SMV high enough to possibly, maybe achieve the same result.

I don't think anyone rational would care what you considered "wrong".

This is an opinion, not an argument. This is just you stroking your own dick about how much more "rational" you are without adding anything meaningful to the discussion. Of course, you must know this. Anyone rational would.

This is the lie that MGTOW tell themselves after reading 24/7 Divorce rape and hiding in their basements. Its nonsense and hopefully it stops soon.

Spoken like a true collectivist creep. You actually believe that, despite being a fallible human being, you are in a position to tell other human beings what they should want out of life. Amazing!

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

You are a rather self centered fellow, aren't you?

I got this a lot while receiving blowjobs from interested, submissive women. Not paid ones.

your collectivist mindset

All healthy men want to have sex. Not rocket science, it only gets murky if one believes the MGTOW lie.

Interesting choice of words my friend. You call sexual strategy a struggle and then tell me it's not "bending over backward"

Nitpicking about semantics. Trying to waste my time? What you call a struggle, someone else might call a walk in the park. We covered this in the call re: Progression.

Not really, whoremongering and child-rearing can be kept apart quite nicely. All it takes is a little thinking.

"A little thinking" oh if only everyone else in the world did "A little thinking". Again, you're very far off the deep end, it takes more than "A little thinking".

Lacking a mother does not necessarily create a shitty environment for the child. That's just traditionalist/feminist propaganda. I already dealt with it in my reply to u/Code_Bordeauxx on this thread and I won't repeat for you.

You were spouting nonsense there too. Ultimately missing the point that was mentioned at least 3 times in the call "Mistaking the unintelligible for the unintelligent".

what is a healthy sex life?

The fact that you need this explained is part of the problem. Did you need a peer reviewed study to learn how to walk? no. MGTOW only need statistics to talk shit on the internet about things they have negative feelings towards. Covered in the call.

You actually believe that, despite being a fallible human being, you are in a position to tell other human beings what they should want out of life. Amazing!

Leadership is not for everyone. Feel free to step aside.

[–]Keeping_itreal13 points 10 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

I got this a lot while receiving blowjobs from interested, submissive women. Not just paid ones.

ROFLOL! What makes you think that I also want interested, submissive women. Again, deflate that ego a little bit and think back to what I said earlier. I don't care what she wants. Whether she is interested, enjoying herself or not is none of my concern. What I care about is whether or not I am enjoying myself and I pay her to make sure I do. If I want her to be submissive, she will.

All healthy men want to have sex.

Opinion, opinion. How do you define a "healthy" man?You can spend 3 years in med school and they will tell you that there is no generally accepted definition of what a "healthy" man is. So I don't know what the fuck you're going on about. I like sex, that's why I get all the sex I want and more. If some other dude decides to swear it off, none of my business.

"A little thinking" oh if only everyone else in the world did "A little thinking". Again, you're very far off the deep end, it takes more than "A little thinking".

I thought you didn't like wasting time with semantics. Or did you change your mind about that already.

You were spouting nonsense there too.

This is not an argument. It's like a child putting his hands on his ears and screaming "you're wrong!". Completely worthless. Just stroking your own dick.

Did you need a peer reviewed study to learn how to walk? no

No. But I would need some once someone starts making the subjective argument on what constitutes a healthy way of walking, and stipulating that everyone should walk exactly like them regardless of personal preferences.

Leadership is not for everyone. Feel free to step aside.

This is hilarious! Is that what you think you are? A leader. Just remember, those who need leaders are not qualified to lead their own lives. I am not interested in babysitting some idiots or following another. So I will step aside, thank you very much!

[–]-Anteros--1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

ROFLOL! What makes you think that I also want interested, submissive women.

Nature. Again, this is not rocket science.

How do you define a "healthy" man?

This again? you're lying and wasting time.

I thought you didn't like wasting time with semantics. Or did you change your mind about that already.

I was poking fun at your ineptitude. If you get out of the basement more that will become easier to spot.

This is not an argument.

Your assertion was "I won't repeat myself" and you're expecting an argument? Again, get out of the basement.

No. But I would need some once someone starts making the subjective argument on what constitutes a healthy way of walking, and stipulating that everyone should walk exactly like them regardless of personal preferences.

Proved my point from earlier.

So I will step aside, thank you very much!

4th MGTOW I've put down today. Adios.

[–]CrazedWoodsman3 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]-Anteros-1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]CrazedWoodsman5 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Code_Bordeauxx -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The way I see it, people who have children with surrogate mothers are just as naive -using very light terms here- as intentional single mothers. You'd do that to your child? Knowingly denying it a (biological) mother before it is even born? Hell, only denying breastfeeding will aready fuck up its immune system. If you know your way around here, you know full well the psychological consequences following an absent (biological) father, do you really think cutting out the mother straight after birth will have any less of an effect?

There are single parents out there who didn't choose for it, and I applaud them for their great efforts at making the best out of this situation. But knowingly, willingly denying your child a parent, just so you can have a mini-me is beyond my comprehension, and I don't have a good word for it.

Just because it's possible doesn't mean you should. You haven't thought this through.

[–]Keeping_itreal14 points 10 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

The way I see it, people who have children with surrogate mothers are just as naive -using very light terms here- as intentional single mothers.

Interesting analysis. The data does not support it however: children raised by single fathers are roughly twice better off financially (less likely to suffer poverty) and suffer 1/2 the abuse. Those are arguably the most important predictors of the future success of a child. The children of single fathers are better off than those of single mothers. All the more astounding when you consider that most single fathers are actually from the lowest socio-economic background.

You'd do that to your child?

Yes, yes I would.

Knowingly denying it a (biological) mother before it is even born?

As opposed to what? A 50% chance that it gets a mother who will then divorce me and take the child away? How much do you care about your child to find those acceptable odds to lose children?

Hell, only denying breastfeeding will already fuck up its immune system.

No, it won't "fuck up" the child's immune system. It's immune system will probably be weaker, but with modern medicine always available this can be dealt with in the early years until the child catches up. With the number of modern women giving up on breastfeeding anyway to keep their boobs, your theory of "fucked up" immune systems is weak. Men who use surrogate mothers (straight and gay) deal with this effectively.

do you really think cutting out the mother straight after birth will have any less of an effect?

Yes I do. The children of single mothers are not worse off simply because they don't have a father. There are many other factors such as their mothers being much more poor, low IQ, abusive, compulsive, unable/uninterested to participate in the child's education etc...

Listen, if I ever go the route, I will not be having baby I cannot support with a chad I couldn't close my legs for before he ran away, or a husband I got bored with. I will be starting from a very comfortable position, with enough wealth to provide anything the child could need and much, much more. Not having a mother will be an handicap, but it can be overcome; much more easily than a typical single motherhood.

Not that mothers are that important. As research shows (twin studies in particular), parents influence little to nothing of who their child will become. So long as you provide decently for them, show emotional support and do not abuse them, almost everything your child becomes will be genetically inherited. The best you can do is find kickass genes for your child (easier with surrogacy) and the correct peer groups. It is human hubris which makes parents think that their children are pets they need to teach tricks to instead of fully independent human beings with their own natures.

There are single parents out there who didn't choose for it, and I applaud them for their great efforts at making the best out of this situation. But knowingly, willingly denying your child a parent, just so you can have a mini-me is beyond my comprehension, and I don't have a good word for it.

Do you have a good word for people who throw a coin in the air to find out if they'll get to keep their children? I thought people on this sub would understand this shit: hate the game, not the player. The US family court system changed the rules of the game by denying men guaranteed equal custody (except in the case of the child's refusal or physical abuse);I am just adapting. If you can change the laws, I will change my strategy. But that will never happen so keep your good word for men who gamble their children away, I don't need it.

[–]LordPorker 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]wont_tell_i_refuse_ 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]enfier 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

making a family will reap larger rewards than all the other stuff a man can do, including fantastical hobbies. Thats why bother.

Kinda preaching to the choir here, I'm married and we just had a kid. It's great, don't get me wrong, but there are also downsides. Although there's no real need to choose between fantastical hobbies and family, I do both.

Who cares if these young men were SMP competitors? they're suffering and need a hand.

I'm not suggesting they go die in a fire, but TRP just provides the accurate road map. If you look at the map, decide you'd rather not go to Disneyland after all and then stay home, well you've used the map.

The sidebar has a bunch of flairs that are not PUA material yet outline sexual strategies and outcomes.

Sure there's useful stuff here, but why would a guy that's not interested in attracting women bother? 90% of the topics are about women.

There's really two things that people arguing for women fail to mention. The first is that pursing MGTOW doesn't mean you can't change your mind in a few years and do the family thing. Your health is still worth pursing whether you are chasing women or not and ignoring women and enjoying life is likely to result in some attraction. The core of TRP is fixing yourself anyways, choosing MGTOW isn't an excuse to eat Cheetos and play video games until you get diabetes.

The second is that freedom isn't achieved just by removing your dependence on others. If you want to be truly free, you need to have no one dependent on you either.

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Although there's no real need to choose between fantastical hobbies and family, I do both.

Good for you, the false dichotomy of one or the other is something that MGTOW seem to present. They'll rhetorically ask "How can you have time for that?" as if its impossible to do both.

but TRP just provides the accurate road map.

We cover this in the call. Retreat is not a strategy.

why would a guy that's not interested in attracting women bother?

Well his mental health disorder that prevents him from being attracted to others may be impeding his judgement. These people are statistically insignificant.

90% of the topics are about women.

Sexual strategies involve women, and:

The core of TRP is fixing yourself anyways

The first is that pursing MGTOW doesn't mean you can't change your mind in a few years and do the family thing.

I think this one is an actual dichotomy. Particularly in regards to the self development required by a man before he can be a good Father.

choosing MGTOW isn't an excuse to eat Cheetos and play video games until you get diabetes.

Yet whats the outcome of a young man choosing MGTOW? is it getting so many women one becomes bored with them and finds their existence moot? No. Its porn, videogames and maybe prostitutes (a true loser move).

[–]FountainsOfFluids 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for this level headed response. It is indeed my intention to evoke the emotions of the MGTOW. They can hate me with all their might if it means they stop poisoning themselves.

Retreat is a tactic

In my opinion the distinction is not one of high importance at this level. The Mongols used a "retreat" tactic as a part of a larger strategy, thats not what MGTOW are doing. 99% of the time this "Monk mode" is just a procrastination; a handy excuse to avoid the painful but important lessons that a young man must learn. The only people that "Monk mode" are useful for are extreme extroverts that need social input to function properly. In my view its a temporary state of MGTOW which is dangerous since its never been easier to go full loser.

I commented on this here as well.

finding who he is outside of relationships, outside of the chase to impress potential life mates

There is no reason he cannot do this while simultaneously having a good social life and sleeping with women. If he sticks around TRP long enough he will see how the second one ("Impress potential life mates") might not be as important as he is assuming.

You can't be a leader if you don't know where you're going.

Young men don't need to know their whole life trajectory, outside of the 25/25 guideline and not making stupid mistakes like getting a permanent STD or knocking up someone. Rollo's second book "Preventative Medicine" discusses the timeline of a man's life with much more depth.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know your message there might not be as clear as you assume.

Thanks again, I know I often leave words out or use less than stellar analogies so its good if someone comes along and points it out.

[–]PreciselyUnclear 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Code_Bordeauxx 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]prometheangambit 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]NietzscheExplosion 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jcart105 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CommentsAndCriticism 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

One big difference is that MGTOW see RedPill as basing their choices around women. This is because you are building your SMV, and your SMV is based around hypergamy. You might think "ohh but I'm not doing it for them" but at the very least, you are doing it because of them. More specifically because of their hypergamy. MGTOW will build themselves, and if that coincides with SMV then so be it. Red Pill explicitly develop SMV for women, and it comes across as thirsty and pandering.

I will give an example. A 25 year old man is a graduate of IT working for a company. In his spare time he is working on building a company for his future. It will be 10 years before he even breaks even, and 20 years before he even appears on womens radar, due to his relatively low SMV. He will have to sacrafice many things to get their and achieve his goals. He will do other things in his life, of course, you gotta enjoy the present moment. But no distractions. MGTOW says go for it, that's best for you... you will reap the rewards, that is smart.

Red Pill says it's good to work on your career and income because women like it. But a 20 year wait for any SMV change, it's not gonna be helpful to get women at all. So Red Pill says you need to set aside some time and energy to build muscle, to learn game, to date, to plate etc. For such a man, it's simply not worth it... it fails the cost benefit analysis.

The MGTOW guys are the ones who decided "meh, that's not worth it". Alot of these guys are LOW SMV, because naturally the "barriers to entry" are higher. But also HIGH SMV guys, who have simply had enough, even if they could get 10 hb9's a day. And I think alot of MGTOW feel a bit superior, because they have mastered their drive, whilst you guys are "thirsty" and slaving away to your biology. And on the other hand Red Pill feel a bit superrior because they say "we are getting pussy, and we are high status" or at least on the road there.

But the fact is MGTOW and Red Pill exist on a spectrum and there are a huge amount of aspects that intersect. We are kinda like Catholics and Protestants, similar but different.

[–]HeadlockBrock 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]Code_Bordeauxx 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

TRP is telling men to become a high quality man, both in body and in mind. Fact is that most are lacking in the body department, so that's where a lot of the attention is focussed. But this is not only for women. This is important for whatever you want to achieve in life.

Very rarely are men of historical significance focused on suitability for women.

This is such a small minority, and besides, most of them still had wives and children. They focussed less of their attention there because they could. We are not living in historical times. If you have any interest at all in women and don't want to get fucked over, you need to bring the best version of you to the table. If you are honestly not interested in women then yes, I can see why one would prefer MGTOW. But you'd be a statistical outlier. More likely still that you'd be hamstering away a lack of confidence and skill in dealing with women, which can and should be improved upon.

[–]HeadlockBrock 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Code_Bordeauxx 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]bowie747 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]HeadlockBrock 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]HeadlockBrock 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I think there is a very strong current of "Alpha" == stud in TRP. There are definitely those among us that take a longer-term view, but maybe only 20%. I'm not saying that the way of the Chad is wrong; maybe nothing else can match the satisfaction of the sex and procreation drives, but MGTOW has a different strategy for life satisfaction. You can't have it both ways. Chad may be a CEO or investment banker, but he's a replaceable bozo with no real skills, and he knows it, and he's scared. I don't care if he's the smartest man on earth, if he's lifting and spinning plates and doing PUA shit, he's going to get beat by a MGTOW that has a mind for one thing only. This is not theory.

On the other hand, Chad gets laid (unless he's married), and the other dude may feel like shit no matter how brilliant he is because women think he's 'creepy'.

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think there is a very strong current of "Alpha" == stud in TRP.

A reliable way to identify alpha behavior is women.

I'm not saying that the way of the Chad is wrong; maybe nothing else can match the satisfaction of the sex and procreation drives, but MGTOW has a different strategy for life satisfaction.

You're setting up a straw-man fallacy here. If TRP was only "Be Alpha bruv" we could close up shop. I would also add that MGTOW seems like it ends in satisfaction but it ends in regret.

Chad may be a CEO or investment banker, but he's a replaceable bozo with no real skills

As someone who works with CEOs and investment bankers, these men are very very far from "replaceable bozo".

if he's lifting and spinning plates and doing PUA shit, he's going to get beat by a MGTOW that has a mind for one thing only.

Life is not work. The only reason this seems to clear is because you're analyzing it in isolation, something I had to point out on the call. Its a common mistake.

On the other hand, Chad gets laid (unless he's married), and the other dude may feel like shit no matter how brilliant he is because women think he's 'creepy'.

The world is not broken down into those who get laid and those who do not. While intelligence is valuable it is not the be-all end-all. This is one of the reasons that the intelligentsia (MGTOW) get poisoned with it so easily. They're trying to intellectualize instead of experience because that is easier than the hard socializing they grow to despise so much.

[–]prometheangambit 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Niko_Choski 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Benny757 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

If this is the case, how is this philosophy different, or more important still, how is this a better alternative to this subreddit?

In answer to you astute reply, I believe you first have to remove the limits of your terminology. Red Pill and MGTOW are not conclusive and static. I have found that many guys going in a different direction, opting out for a spell, or just going their own way are not discounting the main red pill lessons here. Hell, we all know that the side bar works, is true, and applies. The top 1000 comments here hold wisdom and experience which can't be denied.

But MGTOW, though a part of Red Pill, is different. Many dudes have been there and done that. A lot of the dudes have been divorce raped and/or child support/spousal support tormented for so long that the rage of a relationship is really unthinkable. And when I say unthinkable, I really mean the "last fucking straw." Next steps equal blood, death, destruction, suicide, vanishing, you name it. So be careful for what you all are arguing about.

OP's should be keen to the true affect of modern gynocentrism and ANTI-MALE family laws out there beating down and destroying good men.

That's all. Do your own thing.

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Many dudes have been there and done that.

I don't believe this. I don't believe that MGTOW are all top tier men who have grown tired of women.

A lot of the dudes have been divorce raped and/or child support/spousal support tormented for so long that the rage of a relationship is really unthinkable.

Divorce raped? Heal and then win, Child support screwing you? heal and then win, Alimony screwing you? heal and then win. See a pattern?

Changing the definition of "win" is what MGTOW want to do. They want it to involve videogames, porn and other nonsense under the magical umbrella of "happiness". As discussed, people don't know what makes them happy yet they're convinced they do.

And when I say unthinkable, I really mean the "last fucking straw." Next steps equal blood, death, destruction, suicide, vanishing, you name it. So be careful for what you all are arguing about.

Another internet tough guy?

[–]Code_Bordeauxx -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Look, in theory, I can get behind this. I'm sure there are many amongst the MGTOW ranks who played the game and played it well, but got sick of it at a later age. Fine with me. Now, don't get me wrong, I still see it as quitting, which I can't endorse, but at least this I can understand.

But you and I both know these are not the only members, and likely only a minority. I must then assume that the rest of the members are, at best, following a sub-optimal philosophy that isn't designed for them, or worse: actively deluding and toxic to them. If the added value of MGTOW lies with older, experienced men, you'd expect some level of self awareness in the form of an active campaign against those who their ideas aren't meant for. You'd expect to see warnings in their sidebar. Active shaming of young basement dwellers who use MGTOW as a petty excuse. Now, I can't say I'm highly familiar with everyting that happens on their forums, but for as far as I know, this isn't happening.

Why is this important? It means that IF MGTOW was really designed for the specific group you mention, that they are not, or no longer, in control of the movement. If so, perhaps it is time to judge the lifestyle/philosophy/movement not by what it claims it could or should be, but by what it -for the largest part- is. Quite similar to feminism and their dictionary definitions.

So, while you may have a point, I have no reason to believe your sentiment is prevalent within the MGTOW ranks itself. As such, it does not influence my personal convictions stated earlier.

[–]wont_tell_i_refuse_ 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RenaissanceMan792 points 10 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Code_Bordeauxx 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but this seems to be rooted in a belief that a mans value is based on his ability to attract women.

You think wrong. This has nothing to do with the approval of women. All we are interested in is that men go after whatever it is they want, instead of avoiding it out of fear and inability. And yeah, I find it hard to believe there are many MGTOWs who are genuinly not interested in attracting women at all.

Seriously, if after swallowing TRP a man comes to feel the ROI with women is absolute shit, decides his time is better spent on other pursuits and goes MGTOW, who are we to speak of this mans value.

I'd be inclined to ask some questions on how he came to that conclusion then. Because in my/our experience, women can definitely add value to a man's life if he knows how to interact with them. We are here to set misguided men straight. Whether that comes in the form of pussy worship or irrational pussy avoidance is of little importance.

[–]Hakametal 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]wont_tell_i_refuse_ 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Mgtowredpillonroids 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

You seem to be under the illusion that you and I are equals in the SMP. We're not. If my earned arrogance and condescension anger you, good. Use that anger to stop intellectually coddling yourself into a male "Eat, Pray, Love" existence. If there is one thing that shuts off over intellectualization its anger.

who the fuck are you to tell me what to do?

Non-basement dweller. Oh who am I kidding? 8yr LTR, 150+ N count, threesomes, models, multiple girlfriends (while in an LTR). Get on this level then talk instead of defensively accusing me of wanting to "sell" you something. I don't care for your money, I make plenty. I don't mention these facts about myself too much, out of humility.

Cry if you must. So long as you go out and start making mistakes with girls and sleeping with them I'm happy. Oh and don't give me any lies about how you're not interested in sex.

[–]Mgtowredpillonroids 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Indeed we're not equal as I'm certain you're just another Roosh V type trying to build his own tiny cult of little beta pussybeggars. But hey man, that's your prerogative. You're mistaken if you think you're eliciting any kind of anger response within me though, you're far too insignificant to me.

Non-basement dweller. Oh who am I kidding? 8yr LTR, 150+ N count, threesomes, models, multiple girlfriends (while in an LTR). Get on this level then talk instead of defensively accusing me of wanting to "sell" you something. I don't care for your money, I make plenty. I don't mention these facts about myself too much, out of humility.

So basically nobody important, but certainly someone who feels important - by the way, nice try with that DHV, only I'm not a chick waiting to suck your dick ;)

Cry if you must. So long as you go out and start making mistakes with girls and sleeping with them I'm happy. Oh and don't give me any lies about how you're not interested in sex.

Never said I wasn't, but I'm not going to debase myself to get sex. Mostly I bang petite thai sluts for a little fee (according to you that makes me a loser. I'm cool with that :) ). Other than that I'm fine with pump & dump or strangers with benefits but only if it's offered to me on a silver platter. Not going out of my way to convince an inferior creature of my worth.

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Indeed we're not equal as I'm certain you're just another Roosh V type trying to build his own tiny cult of little beta pussybeggars. But hey man, that's your prerogative. You're mistaken if you think you're eliciting any kind of anger response within me though, you're far too insignificant to me.

Uh huh. We believe you so much. I wonder why you view healthy heterosexual relationships so negatively.

So basically nobody important, but certainly someone who feels important - by the way, nice try with that DHV, only I'm not a chick waiting to suck your dick ;)

Lying again but why'd you bring up sucking my dick?

Never said I wasn't, but I'm not going to debase myself to get sex. Mostly I bang petite thai sluts for a little fee (according to you that makes me a loser. I'm cool with that :) ). Other than that I'm fine with pump & dump or strangers with benefits but only if it's offered to me on a silver platter. Not going out of my way to convince an inferior creature of my worth.

Oh. You take pride in Thai prostitutes. Got it. Enjoy Thailand, lots of transsexuals there.

[–]RenaissanceMan792 points 10 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]RenaissanceMan792 points 10 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]MagmaiKH -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]LarParWar 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

It is your overriding biological imperative as a biological organism to pass on your biological material to your biological descendants.

Every single person, animal, plant, insect, bacterium, etc. etc. in existence today has a string of unbroken reproductively successful ancestors dating back billions of years to the genesis of life. Through titanic struggle and impossible odds they unfailingly passed on their genes to culminate in the utterly unlikely occurrence of you.

You are free to deny this heritage if you like. You are, after all, a human being. We human beings have a certain degree of free will. But if you do you may find your instincts rebelling against you as you age. Your genes will scream at you "we're dying" as you party your days down to the very last. And why shouldn't they foist upon you a deep discomfort with your nihilistic and ultimately deadly pursuits? Why shouldn't they give you that "unfulfilled" feeling of existential crisis—because that's what it is: existential crisis.

Donald Trump often says that the happiest men are the ones with the most children. Perhaps this is because such fathers are most in line with their nature as human beings.

It is life alone that all things must serve.

[–]MGTOWmike 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Senior Contributoradam-l 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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Title	Discussing MGTOW with Anteros
Author	Niko_Choski
Upvotes	118
Comments	160
Date	July 24, 2016 8:07 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/4ues8o/discussing_mgtow_with_anteros/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/discussing-mgtow-with-anteros.61009 https://theredarchive.com/post/61009