[FR] Didn't STFU This Time

whinemoreplease · 2015-10-29T18:07:01+00:00

You communicated honestly and openly. Yeah, she'll be pissed and it'll take time to process, but she'll either reflect on what you said after she calms down or she won't. The question you threw her is - do you want to put in an effort to make our marriage work better or not? In this case, I think you have your answer.

The problem with most newbies is that they are not in a position to communicate honestly. Their definition of honest communication is a huge covert contract. Yours isn't. Mine isn't. I'm very open and honest with my wife about a lot of things and never feel the need to STFU when it comes to talking about serious and real situations with emotional impact.

But this is only because my form and your form of communication is not a huge covert contract. Honest communication without DEER will trump STFU when you get there.

I'm a big fan of the progress you're making and the personal responsibility that you take for yourself.

I decided to communicate with her honestly. Total blue pill, right?

Honest communication is very red pill. Blue pill "honest communication" is what most people do - they want to pretend they're being honest, but then when they don't get an answer they want, they get all butt hurt. They want to pretend to have an honest answer, but they need to protect their ego first and foremost. They want to pretend to be honest, but they don't want to expose their real vulnerable selves to getting hurt. This isn't even exclusively to real life, you see it here at MRP and askMRP all the time.

jacktenofhearts · 2015-10-29T23:11:07+00:00

So I've been following your saga and not commenting because I still think you were retarded for taking unilateral control over your finances in a stupidly confrontational way. That move was destined to turn your wife into a Shit Testing harpy well before you had the frame to handle it, and it seems like it did, but you have been managing to weather the storm and not completely buckle and end up divorced.

I honestly don't know where the women of your generation got this idea that denying sex to your husbands is okay.

The only belief system I know of that encourages wives to deny their husbands sex is this modern incarnation of feminism. But the goal of feminism is not happy marriages.

Suffice to say, as everyone else hear has said, stop saying shit like this. Everything else you said, plainly and succinctly communicating your expectations, was great. But just focus on your life and your marriage, because that's all that really matters, and whether it's the bible or feminism, the marriage structure suggested by these platforms are irrelevant. The bible is not married to your wife, YOU are married to your wife, so it doesn't matter if Job 3:16 says And Behold, Lo, The Wife Shall Pleasure Thine's Ballsack, Lest the Lord Smile Upon Those Fruitful Endeavors.

She was furious. "That just proves my point. All you care about is getting what you want. What about my needs? What about my feelings? Is sex all that matters to you?"

I'm going to quote a comment I dropped in someone else's post:

Early in my marriage, my wife would whine and complain when this would happen. She didn't feel like a "priority." And I told her that was pretty much her problem. If she wanted more of my attention, she should offer me things to encourage that attention. And by the way, whining about not getting enough attention, when I was giving her attention, is not a good a way to do that. Maybe she should try doing something else.

So my wife did the whole lingerie thing when I got home later that week. She was almost spiteful when she did it, like she was trying to prove a point. Look I bet if I get all sexy for you like some fucking cliche you'll still just blow me off and want to do other things.

But no, we fucked. A lot. Then we did other things. Then she pulled the whole "you only want me for sex" card. So I pointed out, no, but sex is something she can offer me that no one else can. That's not the only card she can play for my attention, but she's the only one that even has that card. So yeah, I'm going to react positively to that card. She can try and play other cards, though. I react positively to a lot of things. Sex is just one of them.

So that Friday, I come home, she made cocktails and asked if I wanted to hang out on the patio. That sounded pretty great. So we did. I guess I didn't "only want her for sex" after all.

If you want more sexual eagerness from your girl, you're going to have to do something like this. Fill your life with value, and soon enough it'll be clear she needs to add a lot of positivity to your life if she wants to share that value.

I doubt this will be the last time you have the "you only want me for sex" argument, so I would suggest framing things like this next time. You want to add value in your life. You consider having a healthy sex life valuable.
Since she's the only one that can offer you a healthy sex life, seems like that could be an easy way for her to add value in your life. It's that simple. Leave feminism and her mom out of it.

There's the thing, though:

"Our situation is that you care more about getting what you want than you do about my feelings or this marriage."

Let's be clear: your wife is reluctant to do this because she's not confident that adding value to your life will add value to hers. And I think she has a point. Based on what I recall of your marriage history, you have a history of leeching a lot more value off your wife than you ever gave her. And the reason why I think imposing unilateral control on things like finances or diet in your family is that it doesn't give her a chance to willingly comply. You get no virtuous cycle here, where she adds value to your life, and you add value to hers, which only encourages her to add value to yours. You just get a grumpy wife who feels her Captain never consults with his FO, issues seemingly arbitrary orders, and then gets pissed off if they are not immediately complied with.

Then she said, "I did that because I wanted to, not because I had to."

My face-palming reactions to your earlier posts are because I think you could have reached this point a lot sooner. You basically told your wife: "Try choosing to add value to my life. I think you'll like the result. Really." All your other steps, like with the finances et al, never gave her the option to choose. You simply ordered her to do something. The exception was when you showed her the family budget, and she chose to get off her ass and get a job, which she did within like, a week. Contrast that versus every other single fucking thing you've done, which she's fought you on, tooth and nail.

Fucking hell, man. You know, I just remembered the real reason why I stopped commenting on your post -- and it's because I realized I would gradually get fucking enraged at your unwavering commitment to act like a Blue Pill parody of the Red Pill, and destroy a marriage that was in a flawed, but actually very fixable, situation.

Because, dude, what exactly is your problem here? You want your wife to fuck you a little more, and be a little more motivated/less irresponsible with her personal goals and family logistics. That's it. That's the fucking list. And it would be one thing if you came in here with a pile of accomplishments in your professional/personal/social life, but you didn't. You were a fatass who considered taking a walk once a week "good exercise." You spent a lot of your marriage struggling professionally and financially. You carried on some sort of email dalliance with some random whore you found on Craigslist. You weren't adding a lot of value to your own life, let alone your wife's, and yet you had the audacity to reach some sort of "breaking point" with her on like, Day 3 post-Red Pill, and starting imposing unilateral family decisions and told her she had to comply, or go fuck herself. We all suggested you pull the weeds out of your own barren side of the farm before you worried too much about hers, but you decided to just go scorched earth right from the beginning, and then repeatedly posted on AskMRP like your wife is some psychologically impossible shrew-harpy who resists willingly submitting to you with every fiber of your being.

So dude, seriously -- stop just aggressively acting and then posting on AskMRP asking for interpretations of your wife's mixed responses. Your improvements in the past few months are laudable, except the insight, reflection, and retrospection you've started to apply to your own life seems to stop at your wife. Yeah, marriage is "Red Pill" on Hard Mode, but you have an easy Hard Mode, and I wish you'd just fucking realize this already.

Right now I have a smile on my face and a pleasant tingle in my balls. I plan to shower my sweet wife with affection (and chores!) tonight after work.

Great. She added value to your life. It's a good idea to add value to hers. Affection is one way you can do that. Chores, eh, those should be done anyway. You want to add value to her life, ask her to take a walk, solicit her opinion on some logistical shit. Suggest throwing a small party for your friends on the Wednesday evening before Thanksgiving, ask her what she'd think about that. Ask her about how her job is going. Give her an hour of your undivided, empathetic, attention, which is probably the only thing she's really wanted this whole fucking time. I doubt you have to do a single chore.

Don't openly state that you're doing this all because she gave you a blow job. You've already expressed your expectations, so let the subtext of your actions speak for itself. Become the compassionate and empathetic, yet disciplined and strong-willed leader, that she wants a husband, when she becomes the sexually open and deferential wife. If anything, your lack of communication about her needs will actually benefit you, because she'll probably conclude, Oh wow, he never explicitly asked me about my needs because he knew what they were the whole time! My husband is so amazing!

You can't enforce that virtuous cycle, you can only encourage it. Your wife, despite your best attempts to sabotage yourself every goddamn step of the way, has decided to humor you and give it a try. Respond accordingly, and that does not mean imposing arbitrary logistical rules and enforcing some misguided sense of discipline on her, whenever she falls short of your expectations. If you take one goddamn thing from this whole wall of text, please take that.

marxistbacon · 2015-10-29T15:20:38+00:00

STFU is basically a safety rule, for people who can't handle a "hard conversation" or can't avoid being baited by "false or ridiculous" statements into a huge argument which ultimately makes things worse. By preventing 99% of communication (STFU), the side effect is that you also prevent the self-destructive communication. However, once you've mastered yourself enough that you can respond to her rather than react to her, STFU is just a guideline rather than the be-all and end-all of relationship advice.

I cringed a little when you decided to engage and started talking about feminism. But at the end of the day you said what you needed to, without getting into a butt-hurt sulking passive-aggressive or door-slamming frame of mind, which is what you need to be able to do. And you responded to her anger and predictable upset by keeping your cool, which again is what you need to do. Was it the right point in your relationship for the big "sex talk"? Dunno, but at least you handled it well.

TheOakenshield · 2015-10-29T13:36:27+00:00

STFU applies until you know what to say and how to say it. You said what you had to say, direct, to the point, and clearly. You then held you're ground by not running after her and comforting her. That is the right time STFU and you did. You exposed the truth, it's up to her to deal with it.

You did well.

Keep working on you and more will come.

mrpCamper · 2015-10-29T15:45:21+00:00

STFU is most valuable when you are asked why the milk carton was put in the fridge backwards and on the wrong shelf and what you want to say is "What's the fucking difference?". Of course you can say, "It must have been jostled around when I was fucking you against the fridge this morning. Oh wait that wasn't you. I don't know why."

BluepillProfessor · 2015-10-29T18:32:16+00:00

Contrary to popular belief, The Red Pill is ALL about open communication. Direct, to the point, no argument. This is what I need. This is how you demolish your covert contracts.

I plan to shower my sweet wife with affection (and chores!) tonight after work.

Oh boy. I can see we still have a lot of work to do. Try giving her a bag of skittles instead. She JUST showed you that having a strong man who can calmly articulate what he needs is highly seductive so why do you want to turn into a puppy again after a simple blowjob. Set the bar a bit higher.

Redneck001 · 2015-10-29T14:28:13+00:00

You just received an enthusiastic BJ and your asking our opinion? Hell, you should be teaching the class.

My wife went through the "you don't care" thing. I ignored it, AAed, AMed it. Then it hit me: comfort test. Once I treated it like a comfort test, she relaxed, became sweeter, and hasn't brought it up again. You just did the same.

doubt this is a watershed moment

But it is. You recently mentioned that you were losing attrraction to your wife. Now, you developing the marriage you want, things are improving, you're excited about spending time with her tonight.

It's like progress pics in lifting/losing weight. You don't see the changes, until you compare today's pic with last month's pic.

stonepimpletilists · 2015-10-29T15:03:55+00:00

Held frame, was in the edge of my seat for a bit with the talking, but like wmp said, that was honest, and you didn't take her. "meee" bait.

I personally like throwing out some truth, then waiting for a delay before she can talk. Mine often needs a few hours between initial shock talk, and adult conversation, sounds like your does too.

dandar4600 · 2015-10-29T15:04:12+00:00

The thing with negotiating desire (and that's all it was) is that it will work for a week or two before things get back to normal...unless you continue working on yourself, lifting and passing shit tests.

I'm in a similar situation though my wife is 7 months pregnant. Before the pregnancy we fucked 4-5 times a week. Now it's once or twice a month and 2 or 3 blow jobs so that I get something at least once or twice a week. Two days ago I did not show OI after getting rejected and told her that there are so many rejections I'm willing to take before I stop bothering to initiate. Then I went to sleep. The next night I got laid.

I'm not happy I had to resort to getting butthurt to get sex but I figure if she fucked me this often (4-5 x/week) before the pregnancy (our 2nd kid) then she will fuck me that often after. We just have to trudge along through this painful time and if I have to remind her to put in more effort for the time being I'll just have to deal with it.

itsgavinc · 2015-10-29T17:39:36+00:00

Receiving one morsel of intimacy does not a happy marriage make. You will have to work this hard and fight this hard each and every step of the way. Some of those battles will be with yourself (proper diet, lifting heavy weights, keeping your hair trimmed) and others will be with your wife (shit test, comfort test). Some will be overt (such as what you wrote about) and others will be covert (you knowing that rejection is better than regret but failing to internalize it). Battle on.

itsgavinc · 2015-10-29T18:34:45+00:00

Just read this from Rollo and it's too good to not post.

"It is a Man's capacity to perform and demonstrate (never explicate) higher value that genuinely motivates women to accommodate mutual needs in a relationship, not communication or reasoning."

ThatOtherMarriedGuy · 2015-10-29T20:56:34+00:00

[permanently deleted]

UEMcGill · 2015-10-29T18:10:21+00:00

We often remind new guys that women communicate covertly. They deliver feeling and emotion. But that doesn't mean they can't communicate overtly, it just means it's not their primary conduit. STFU is a good method to diffuse this. You're communicating "I'm an oak, your emotion doesn't sway me."

But, one thing that hasn't been touched on, sometimes you need to be direct. She was clearly in the throws of a comfort test. Yep, you got that. She was being an emotional terrorist; here's a good change to use WISNIFG, which you did. You used BROKEN RECORD, and then she stormed off because she didn't like the message. One important aspect I think you missed, was:

"How is that going to make me happy?!?"

I've had this same conversation in different forms with my wife. I finally told her point blank "I can't make you happy. I can't make you feel better and I will not cater to your feelings. If you have a need, I will fulfill it if I can. Do not make them contingent on each other. Use your big girl words and tell me what you need. I've told you what I need."

Somethings go beyond shit test and comfort test into foundational stuff. Don't be afraid to take them on, or worse confuse them for something they're not.

BlackKnightofthePill · 2015-11-02T09:16:28+00:00

Well, the thing is, you only STFU for shit tests. So was what she said a shit test or a comfort test? To me it sounded like a comfort test (the part about your "situation" surrounded by a flurry of shit tests.

Title	[FR] Didn't STFU This Time
Author	ThatOtherMarriedGuy
Upvotes	19
Comments	45
Date	October 29, 2015 1:21 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/askMRP
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/3qp7pl/fr_didnt_stfu_this_time/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/askMRP/fr-didnt-stfu-this-time.207956 https://theredarchive.com/post/207956

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