Mensrights: "It was created in opposition to feminism." Why does men's rights have to be in opposition to feminism? What about equal rights for all?

unbibium · 2010-10-16T16:40:26+00:00

It might be better to change "in opposition to" to "as a counterpart to", since part of the problem in gender equality issues, is people who frame rights issues as "a battle of the sexes", rather than a way of improving the social contract.

kragshot · 2010-10-17T06:53:55+00:00

I've tried to read this thread and I'm going blind. I'm going to say this and move on.

Not to disrespect the OP, but unless she's a major member of a political lobby, a politician, cabinet member, or some other person of influence in this country, I could care less about whether she allies herself to our cause or not.

This movement will not get anywhere trying to convince feminists that they should help us out. Feminism as a whole isn't vested in having to do so. Furthermore, I really don't give a damn whether feminism helps us out or not; neither should any other MRA.

Are we not men?

Let's just do what we have always done throughout history. Get up, grab our nuts, go out the door, and get it our damn selves.

If women's shelters don't want to help battered men, then let's make our own damn shelters.

If cops don't want to help us when men get battered, then we sue the damn cops and go to city hall and call them the fucking cowards that they are.

Let's create our own political lobbies. We make sure that judges and politicians that don't support CS/Custody reform and are willing to let corrupt laws steal our children and money know that we'll remember their names at election time.

I'm tired of trying to prove any damn thing to these scarecrow feminists. You are wasting your energy trying to combat the NAF/WALT fallacy. We know the damn truth.

And to the OP:

If you don't subscribe to that brand of feminism that supports the tearing down of men and you want to help us out, then get out in the street and decry the misandrist brand of feminism. If you want to prove to me that feminism is there to help men like me as well, then get out there and take back your damn movement from those women who are promoting the policies of corruption and misandry. Anything else is silent and passive complicity with those goals. We have to prove every day that we don't hate women and are not rapists, wife beaters, and child molesters. You damn well better prove that you are not the enemy to us, or like James Brown said:

"Like a dull knife, it just ain't cuttin'. You're just talking loud and saying nothin'!"

Enough of this shit. We need to stop trying to kowtow to them and get on with the damn work.

Hamakua · 2010-10-16T17:26:44+00:00

I disagree with you about the portions of feminism that are for equality/bigotry. And whether or not we should define feminism as "equality" or "the feminist movement". Whether not you think it's justified, you need to realize that it's in the sidebar because of opposition to the feminist movement, not because opposition to the principle of equality for men and women. People here object to feminism because of the hypocrisy, lies and misandry, not because they don't want women to be treated as equals.

That said, I do agree that it shouldn't be in the sidebar.

Like it or not, a lot of people see that sidebar and think "Holy shit it was created in opposition to women's rights! Well, those gosh-darned patriarchs aren't going to get me reading their stupid subreddit or examining my beliefs!".

Yeah, people who've done some thinking on the subject or hung out here for a while can at least see the reasoning for why it's on there, but I don't think we should go out of our way to exclusively be preaching to the choir. I'm sure there are plenty of the people here who can relate to growing up being told that feminism was unerringly supporting equality for everybody. Some people like that won't get their minds changed or question their beliefs if we just have that little bit in the sidebar without all the necessary reasoning behind it.

And, of course, not all feminism is misandrist. There's a ton of debate to be had over how much of feminism is misandrist (it sure comes up a lot), but I think many of us can agree that some feminists, even if they probably are in the minority, want equality. Putting "opposition to feminism" as a blanket statement is not a great idea for that reason. Not in a sidebar where there's no room for the explanation to follow.

Of course, we certainly shouldn't have a sidebar saying how great all of feminism is and how much we always love it. We should leave it out, though, or put in the FAQ where there is more room for explanation and where the entire community can add to the discussion.

kloo2yoo · 2010-10-16T13:39:50+00:00

, but the idea that women deserve equal treatment in society is still relevant,

NO.

The idea that women and men deserve equal treatment is worthy of upholding.

2010-10-16T21:59:23+00:00

To grasp anything you need two opposing forces. If you only have one, all it will do is push. Just as your thumb is in opposition to your forefinger, men's rights is in opposition to feminism. Hopefully between us we'll be able to grasp that elusive goal of equal rights.

Hamakua · 2010-10-17T07:00:27+00:00

That does not mean that the ideas of feminism are wrong, attacking to men

This is where your plea falls apart. Mens' Rights is not opposed to the ideas of feminism - it is opposed to the reality of feminism. The two are not the same.

TheBananaKing · 2010-10-16T10:23:37+00:00

Feminism is the name for the gender equality movement, just like White Power is the name for the racial equality movement.

A plague on both their houses. I'm a militant egalitarian.

cryptogirl · 2010-10-16T12:44:27+00:00

A lot of feminists support men's rights and are active on this subreddit. We endure the hate as best we can, and try to set a good example.

pinkocommieliberal · 2010-10-16T19:12:31+00:00

Can you expand on "the increasing feminization of poverty"? To me, that sounds as though you're saying that poor people used to be predominantly male but now it's becoming more even - is that what it is?

tagus · 2010-10-17T05:49:43+00:00

why does it have to be LGBT? why not about equal rights for all?

wolfsktaag · 2010-10-16T17:18:28+00:00

the reason the two seem opposed is probably due to feminists being the most vocal opponents of mens rights, in my experience

passel · 2010-10-16T16:52:58+00:00

I'm not a big fan of this subreddit... but this is explainable. The term "feminism" has come to be applied to one-sided advocacy for women and occasionally "revenge" on men.

Part of how this works is that people buy into the doctrine that any form of advocacy for a group with disadvantages is making that group more equal. (Even though all groups have disadvantages)

nyxerebos · 2010-10-16T11:07:15+00:00

Feminism does not advocate for equality any more than White Rights advocates for equality. Don't believe what someone says, believe what they do. If feminists were for equality they would support Selective Service for women, prostate cancer funding, presumptive shared parenting, prosecution of false accusations, etc. Every plank in the feminist agenda is strictly pro-women and anti-men.

tomek77 · 2010-10-16T10:50:28+00:00

Feminism is not about equality for all in most cases. It is more often than not paradoxically about equality for women.

Zombie_Killer_Jen · 2010-10-17T04:45:38+00:00

Hdstubbs, you've made some thoughtful and fair minded points. I think you would be an asset to a general equality forum.

But that statement in the sidebar is an accurate warning. It can save female Redditors the effort of trying to participate in discussions here. When I saw just the thread titles, I was drawn in. I learned a lot about horror stories in divorce and child custody laws. I felt sympathy towards men who were badly treated.

But these are angry guys. They are not looking for a woman's viewpoint. When I reply to a Mensrights thread, I nearly always regret it. I will be staying out of this area in the future except for posts that really catch my eye, like this one.

Hamakua · 2010-10-16T16:00:42+00:00

[permanently deleted]

stophating · 2010-10-16T13:33:29+00:00

I completely agree. There are too many stories on Men's Rights that try to demean women. It is not necessary and it makes Men's Rights seem like a bunch of misogynists. This hurts the cause.

To deny women respect, to belittle them or try to take away their rights does not help advance Men's Rights. Too often do I come to a Men's Rights story to see a bunch of hateful comments about women, or find articles that are there simple to degrade women without any connection to men's rights at all.

Thanks for making this post.

ignatiusloyola · 2010-10-16T16:40:05+00:00

The statement means that Feminism is not about equality for all. It is about privilege and rights for women. Thus, Men's Rights is about rights for men, and must be in opposition to Feminism.

Egalitarianism is the middle ground.

2010-10-16T17:09:31+00:00

Why can't you read the entire paragraph? "We recognize the right of females to be treated equally, but we fight for the right of males to be treated equally. This is not a feminist subreddit. It was created in opposition to feminism." Anyone who reads the entire paragraph would see that this reddit is not anti women having rights.

Why does a group need to encompass other "disadvantaged" people whenever we fight for something(women are not disadvantaged in any meaningful way when compared to men)?

Why not ask why gay rights activists aren't fighting for reductions in crime against blacks? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Lastly, feminism, at best, focuses on relatively trivial female issues instead of grotesque male issues and at worst is pure man hate. Both are wrong and both should be fought against.

horsepie · 2010-10-17T00:00:57+00:00

I don't know how many people will see this, but there is an equality subreddit, with nowhere near as many subscribers as this one.

Grayswan · 2010-10-16T09:59:19+00:00

Many have said the Men's Rights Movement might better be called the Men's Movement. I agree because we are not just fighting to change laws, but a whole society that demonizes men. I doubt all the misandrist laws we have now would exist without that demonization being first accomplished. Have NO DOUBT, much of that demonization is driven by feminism. I don't care that feminists say it's only about equal rights. Their actions clearly show it is not. Feminists started the gender wars. I think it is perfectly fair that men finally start fighting back.

Hamakua · 2010-10-16T09:50:00+00:00

I would go a step farther and say that many facets of feminism are extremely supportive of men's rights. Equal treatment is equal treatment, for both men and women.

Also, thank you.

nyxerebos · 2010-10-16T14:02:22+00:00

Agree. There's little to be gained by being reactionary, and defining ones movement by what one is against. Being against feminism is pretty meaningless anyway - look at the wikipedia page on feminism, there are dozens and dozens of movements and groups calling themselves feminist with different ideas and goals. Some are quite crazy, eg Dworkin et al - I don't oppose crazy ideas because someone calls them feminist, but because I consider myself a sane and reasonable person. Likewise I find Marxist or Anarchist feminism suspect because from my perspective they have a few short planks in their platform. That's not the same as being opposed to feminism, not wanting to eat dog turd pizza doesn't mean pizza is generally bad.

I'm of the opinion that patriarchy and traditional, limiting gender roles are harmful to everybody, perhaps less harmful to men than women, but people working against it deserve support. Mensrights could fill the gap, take on issues of equality and civil rights which feminism overlooks or does not prioritize.

Hamakua · 2010-10-16T14:53:18+00:00

I think feminism is like liberalism and the most extreme ideas of the philosophy have become what people associate with the name.

I disagree. Thats like saying the Westboro Baptist Church have become what people associate with Christianity. There's an antifeminism movement. But feminism doesn't actively call itself the anti-men movement. Sure, there are some nutcases here and there. Women in Saudi Arabia can't vote. All persons in Papal conclaves are male. Equal rights for women still has a long way to go.

IDidItMyself · 2010-10-17T01:06:45+00:00

Yeah having >It was created in opposition to feminism.

takes so much away from this subreddit. If everyone wants to talk about equality and bringing attention to false rape claims and all that stuff then thats fine but saying "It was created in opposition to feminism." just means that Mensrights opposes womens right to vote, equal pay for women, and women in politics. That what feminism was about. Someone males here have to have taken a gender studies class....

It makes you all look like a bunch of 13 year olds who got dumped by some chick you liked and are still butt hurt about it. rabble rabble

2010-10-16T17:00:24+00:00

Vlad Tepes knew how to deal with concern trolls.

valerie_z · 2010-10-16T14:14:41+00:00

Equal rights for women often directly translates into equal rights for men. Men who want equality don't want to get fucked for alimony, and women who want equality want to have their own education and careers so that they will never have to ask for alimony. Feminism in its traditional definition benefits men a great deal.

2010-10-16T22:35:44+00:00

Feminism isn't about equal rights.

Feminism is about strong males using law to further marginalize weak males.

It's the same game, just a different set of rules. The women have nothing to do with it, other than of course being the prize.

un_internaute · 2010-10-16T13:57:33+00:00

This tired old rant is posted in this subreddit at least once a week. Move along. Nothing to see here.

Anaesthesia · 2010-10-16T12:52:20+00:00

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy!!!! This is what I was ranting about in mens rights awhile back!

2010-10-16T15:49:54+00:00

Feminism is about gaining power at the expense of men.

SyntaxOfL · 2010-10-16T22:04:25+00:00

I have a lot of feminist friends, men and women. They all chime the same tune, which is "Mens rights have no business and is pointless in feminism".

2010-10-16T22:32:52+00:00

Lara Croft is just a male fantasy

FTFY

2010-10-16T23:58:35+00:00

I would consider it wrong to be in opposition to feminism if feminism had any legitimate reason to currently exist.

worldnick · 2010-10-17T02:18:55+00:00

Feminism is an attack on men for dominance. It has nothing to do with equality. Things are already equal. They have always been. I basically feel like we as men do a lot of things to please women and at least in the city where I live women can walk with their heads held high. I am insulted when I hear complaints about men taking advantage of women because I personally don't see it happen in MY life. I don't live everyone elses life, but from my point of view women are leading men around by the balls and men rarely get a head up. Feminism won the battle a long time ago and it's kicking a dead horse because I feel pretty castrated and I have since my first "you are a male predator" sexual harassment training in elementary school. So fuck feminists I wouldn't radio edit. They are in direct opposition to everything in my life and I feel like I was made out to be a monster from even before I was born. This is so so so so so so fucked up.

HQR3 · 2010-10-16T16:52:20+00:00

Without the attempted colonization of this subreddit by feminists like the OP, we could have genuine discussions of the situation men find themselves in today and search for viable solutions. Instead, we have to fend off transparent attempts to proselytize us to the dark side of the Force.

If we didn't have truth on our side, folks from XX would not spend so much time on us. Afterall, we don't try to convert them.

Hamakua · 2010-10-16T15:11:21+00:00

Again, no man in here is willing to take responsibility for the historical oppression of women that men of this world have propagated to this day. We ask the feminists to reflect on their actions and see that what their doing is demonizing and persecuting men, but there is no reflection or acknowledgment of our INCOMPARABLE systemic oppression and persecution of women.

Do men not have to take responsibility for our hand in the oppression of women if we are to aggressively demand that women stop fighting to be recognized, even if they do at the expense of male progression?

You want equality? Stop asking feminists to take responsibility for their actions when we are unwilling to hold ourselves accountable for our history.

Feminism is a response to the historical actions of men. We are responsible for its existence. Over the last 223 years if gender equality had been promoted and fought for by men with the same venom and anger as this subreddit, I would hazard a guess that we would not be dealing with this villainous feminist movement.

2010-10-16T18:14:46+00:00

I hate women, they're dumb and worthless.

2010-10-16T14:43:17+00:00

Men have the right to kneel down and suck my superior vagina.

2010-10-17T01:45:50+00:00

Feminism is about equal rights. Mens rights is about reverse-reverse sexism. So it really is the most sexist reactionary movement of all. Enjoy living in the stone age.

Title	Mensrights: "It was created in opposition to feminism." Why does men's rights have to be in opposition to feminism? What about equal rights for all?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	146
Comments	404
Date	October 16, 2010 9:38 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ds003/mensrights_it_was_created_in_opposition_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mensrights-it-was-created-in-opposition-to.1046802 https://theredarchive.com/post/1046802

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