Saying "provide sources/statistics/proof" in response to what someone is saying is a weak cop out and avoids real debate

sleeping_willow_ · 2016-04-01T17:52:02+00:00

People here are not willing to actually debate and learn new ideas but rather to hear what theywant to hear and throw at the other side because they don't like having their beliefs challenged.

The debate isn't to convince who you're talking to, it's for 3rd party fence sitters

BaadKitteh · 2016-04-01T19:37:53+00:00

LOL! That is the essence of debate. If you don't have any citation for your claims, they are nothing but anecdote and opinion, which is basically worthless from a debate standpoint. There is no "debate" of opinions. That's called arguing, not debating.

I just noticed your last line- as people who identify as "blue pill" generally have no ideology to defend beyond "everyone deserves to be treated with basic respect as a person" and "equality is preferable to inequality", obviously the people with the most claims to defend are terps.

[deleted] · 2016-04-01T18:16:26+00:00

My main complaint does not pertain to the usual clutch of RP/BP topics, but when those topics and presumptions are used to extrapolate off onto things that are easily discoverable, but about which the discussion participants have preconceived notions that they are unwilling to examine. Yesterday's discussion about women being subject to the draft is a good example; it's not like DoD policy on the issue of professionalization versus conscription is some kind of unfathomable mystery, unable to be located or comprehended by the average US citizen, but a decent portion of that discussion centered around non-facts that people wanted to get themselves worked up about.

There have been similarly ridiculous claims about the proportion of graduate degrees awarded to women, and what topics they are in. ("80% of all women receive government-funded Ph.D.s in gender studies!!!!!!") Again, the NEH tracks subjects and numbers of all graduate degrees awarded every year. A middle school student can easily find this stuff.

So yeah, when people make claims about THERE ARE NO JOBS THAT WOMEN CAN DO IN THE MILITARY BECAUSE THEY WILL ALL BE RAPED BY THE ENEMY or WE ARE ONE CAR BOMB AWAY FROM UNIVERSAL CONSCRIPTION or THE US GOVERNMENT PAYS BILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR FOR FEELZ GENDER STUDIES DEGREES, I want them to back up those claims.

Thotwrecker · 2016-04-01T21:03:26+00:00

I think it is not a cop out. Science is important, verified facts and correctly done studies are important.

However, like in fitness, what you'll find is that many, many studies are intellectually disingenuous. They are not done properly, the data is garbage in garbage out, and the headlines are as clickbaity as a HuffPo article.

Which means if you want to be that guy who always has to bring citations and stats and studies... you need to do it with a goddamn brain. Review and think critically about the actual procedure and contents of the study.

I don't see RPers OR BPers doing this very well. Everyone has a tendency to cherrypick studies that support their side. If the study doesn't support their desired conclusion, they will apply logic and dissect it. Cool. But if the study does support their conclusion, they will not actually analyze the study, or will cheerfully omit key facts.

In the scientific community, there is a problem also with funding. The only people who will fund a study on, say, ZMA supplementatio and use active, fit males on a workout plan as their base... are supplement companies. No one else is going to pay a million dollars to answer the burning question of whether or not ZMA supplementation helps muscle growth.

Which means most studies are funded and published by those who have a vested interest in the answer being a certain way. They may not be actually doctoring the results or anything, but they choose which studies to publicize and release. For example, Coke may for 11 studies to be done on HFCS, and publish the 1 study that showed it had no effect on weight gain (and not publish the other 10).

You also have self-reporting. Any statistics professor will tell you there are big problems with wording and self-reporting and questionairres. For example, if I'm going to ask "Have you ever had an unwanted sexual advance" and 33% of women say "yes", and then I publish "1/3 of Women have been sexually assaulted"... there is fishery going on. Many of those women interpretted "sexual advance" as a man hitting on her when she didn't want to be hit on. The wording was disingenuous - most likely intentionally.

A lot of studies that give people there "reddit data" emerge from this kind of intellectually dishonest work.

So if you want to talk science, that's fine, but you cannot be this black/white science guy who comes into every thread empowered by your bat of objectivity and absolute truth - aka studies you googled up to fit your bias - and smack everyone with it. That is not good, it's not good for RP or PPD or critics.

Just like in bodybuilding, are you going to trust the guy who tells you to eat protein, sleep good, lift heavy, and stay consistent? Or are you going to trust some Tim Ferris motherfucker who has some science backing his claim that eating fermented cod liver oil and popping "air squats" in the bathroom before meals is SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN to get you looking like a physique model. Yeah he might have 2-3 scientific studies linked at the bottom of his ebook, but... the gym rat actually makes sense.

drok007 · 2016-04-01T17:07:25+00:00

I think RPers suffer from confirmation bias. I think coming together to and exhanging ideas and experiences are coloring those ideas and experiences. Also requesting statistics is natural when someone claims "all women will leave their spouse if he does x." I am going to request evidence other than "LOTS OF RPERS SAY SO."

drok007 · 2016-04-01T17:25:08+00:00

I generally agree that a lot of "cite scientific studies or stfu" is unhelpful for much of the debate going on here. The lack of these things doesn't necessarily = the person who can't provide them is automatically wrong.

HOWEVER. What I see a lot of on PPD is certainty. And I'm not sure the certain people understand the difference between 'my opinion is fact' and 'this is what I believe and will try to back up in conversation, but I am open to other opinions and maybe even to altering my own based upon new evidence, thoughts etc.' when engaged in debate. When you present your opinion as hard fact, you invite those 'show me stats' responses. You almost guarantee them. It's an odd and imo unhelpful debate tactic.

The truth is, certainty in the realms we discuss on PPD is probably a bit silly in many cases. Feeling strongly that you are right, which many of us on both sides clearly do feel, is not the same thing as actually being right - or factual in your opinion. Maybe it depends on why people are here. Some people are here to learn more about what and how other people think. To have interesting conversations with people who don't agree with them. Other people seem to be here because they're 100% convinced they're right and they want to yell/throw accusations of stupidity at those who disagree with them. I'm sure there are more motivations than those two, as well.

PPD isn't math, no matter how badly some of us seem to want it to be. Your side isn't saying 1+1=2 while the other side is saying 1+1=5. Neither of you agree on what '1' represents - or what '2' or '5' or '+' or '=' represent.

ddiogenesofsinope · 2016-04-01T21:20:21+00:00

Evidence is the basis of debate... If I don't challenge you on your arguments, say provide evidence for the wage gap, you can say whatever you want without accountability.

Call me sad, but Whenever Im in a heated debate, with family or friends, I tend to have my smartphone on hand, to prove things I say with articles, stats, research etc... If I am challenged. That's a whole lot better than making unfounded claims. Even your subjective experience is better evidence than providing nothing. But subjectivity can hardly be called empirical.

How is this even a question, It's stuff like this that makes people frustrated. You cant make claims without evidence?

And for your bonus, Humanity is guilty of this. If everyone actually tried get empirical evidence for their claims, the world may be a bit more stable. But noooooooooo

sleeping_willow_ · 2016-04-01T17:12:45+00:00

[deleted]

TheChemist158 · 2016-04-01T17:37:38+00:00

Oh man, this thread is almost directed at me personally. So I agree that it's a bit unfair to ask for insanely particular stats. But when we come down to it, it seems like many discussions here end with "me and my pals see this happen all the time" and someone else saying "what? That never happens". So we have just different experiences and there is really no where to go. Neither party has a fair idea of how common these things really are throughout all of society. If we can bring in a study, it introduces some objectivity to it. Saying "well I never see that happen" isn't any less of a cop out then saying "I never see that happen, do you have numbers about it?". And yes, for many things we don't have the perfect study. But we can often find another study that at least implies something, and we have something to keep talking about. Often we see an issue with the study, but that's just debating. We shouldn't get a study and then say "oh well, I guess your were right". We should look at it and think about what it means.

drok007 · 2016-04-01T17:39:37+00:00

[deleted]

YaBoiTibzz · 2016-04-01T17:49:26+00:00

Confirmation bias and relying on anecdotal evidence are serious intellectual pitfalls which completely undermine your conclusions if you fall prey to them. It's a valid thing to be concerned about. That said, I agree that sometimes people will use it as a cheap fallback plan, I've seen requests for "proof" in response to arguments which are more concerned with logic and trains of thought, things which can be discussed abstractly without need for physical evidence to form their premises.

[deleted] · 2016-04-01T18:27:29+00:00

Oh it's definitely blue pillers trippin over sources and scholarly articles lol

squishles · 2016-04-01T18:33:22+00:00

Kind of annoying when you see people do it without appreciating that it's for creating a claim. Like if someone says something, then someone comes in and disagrees; if the first post had no citations the refutation does not require a citation either. But it's become a favorite reddit argument tactic to request them with none of your own as an argument, which does not work.

sleeping_willow_ · 2016-04-01T17:22:22+00:00

I know BPiller are guilty of this too, but I'm going to complain about RP here a little.

If you think that there isn't research available over the topics we discuss on this sub then you either haven't looked or don't know how to look. Give me any topic, and I can find you a related study. There is a ton of information out there. And I accept the OKcupid study, but RPillers only look at the one part on the study that supports their beliefs and completely ignore the rest.

With N-count we bring up CDC report all the time which shows that the 80/20 rule is pretty much bunk, and RP dismisses it because people lie on surveys. This is true but we also have studies on how much people lie about their partner count on surveys. Women decrease their count by ~2 and men increase their count by 2. However RP doesn't want to use this information to even create a reasonable approximation. They just want to throw out everything.

sublimemongrel · 2016-04-01T20:32:56+00:00

I ask for some sort of supportive data on this sub all the time, particularly when I see misinformed opinions on legal issues. It's not unreasonable at all for people to ask for support for an argument especially because TRP says its "the truth."

despisedlove2 · 2016-04-01T20:59:12+00:00

Depends.

You can't argue without due diligence, but I agree, sometimes people use this as a delaying tactics. Sometimes even demanding sources for things that have been discussed to boredom on this and other subreddits.

MagicGainbow · 2016-04-01T22:44:08+00:00

I disagree, if we aren't even going to try and back up our claims, what is the point? then anyone could say anything.

I agree in that some things will not be recorded like studies on 80/20 etc. and that demanding proof of that can be impossible...doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

I may not be able to provide sources every time but I make the effort to try and back up my arguments.

Look at my post history with Nechama, he/she is making statements and refusing to back them up, he/she won't even link in a thread to prove me wrong(i'm still waiting) if we allow that to spread it will kill this sub..

[deleted] · 2016-04-01T22:44:57+00:00

Actually, the Census Bureau and various research institutions do have data on n-counts; I processed some data from the GSS just the other day for a report that included number of sexual partners from surveys going all the way back to 1988. There are people who care about that data, namely sociologists and psychologists... but that's besides the point.

Think of it like this- remember writing big research papers in high school or college? You never had to provide citations on commonly known items like "lions live in Africa" or "there are a lot of people in China" or "photosynthesis is a mechanism through which plants derive energy using light sources," but if you didn't provide a citation for something like "the lion population in Africa has declined by x%" or "bacteria can be manipulated to glow under UV light if a plasmid containing the pGLO gene" you would get points off and your paper would not be deemed credible. If I'm presented with novel information or a generalization not in line with information I already have, fuck, I'm going to need to see a source before I can deem it credible. If not, I'd be susceptible to believing every factoid that blows my way just because someone else thinks it's true, and before you know it, I'll think Obama is a KGB agent and that the earth is flat.

[deleted] · 2016-04-02T00:55:42+00:00

I think direct statistics you can say "source" but if I had a general idea like "I think women tend to do this thing" it's not source!!!! worthy.

Rather if you want to obliterate someone's point provide your own soruces, against their asertion.

[deleted] · 2016-04-02T01:03:09+00:00

Blue pillers have done this to me many times before.

AnUndecidedPill · 2016-04-02T02:03:37+00:00

You are literally unfit to be here if you think that way.

THE_StrongBoy · 2016-04-02T05:45:44+00:00

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LordFishFinger · 2016-04-02T08:13:07+00:00

So matter what you can't win.

Have you considered the idea that this is because your beliefs are baseless?

I do agree that isolated demands for rigor are bad, though.

[deleted] · 2016-04-01T17:27:08+00:00

RP is inherently prone to confirmation bias before discussing stuff, because the discussions on RP only consist of RP'ers. It is not a randomly selected group of people discussing. RP'ers already have a set of beliefs and that influences their observations (it's just a human thing really, everyone does this).

It's like saying: why do you need proof that God exists, isn't the fact that billions of christians come together to talk about him enough proof?

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Title	Saying "provide sources/statistics/proof" in response to what someone is saying is a weak cop out and avoids real debate
Author	AnUndecidedPill
Upvotes	9
Comments	213
Date	April 1, 2016 4:59 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4cwodk/saying_provide_sourcesstatisticsproof_in_response/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/saying-provide-sourcesstatisticsproof-in-response.275350 https://theredarchive.com/post/275350

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