Query: Are you now or have you ever been a feminist?

NeuroticIntrovert · 2012-12-03T02:40:09+00:00

I used to identify myself as a feminist ally. I don't anymore.

Let me put aside all my intellectual reasons for this. The radical feminisms, the bad reasoning, the methodologically biased research, the hypocrisies, the invention of new perjoratives like 'privileged' and 'mansplain' - put aside even the etymology of the word "feminism."

I went to a university for 6 years. It had a women's center; later it decided to be more inclusive and called itself the 'women's and trans' center (message received). Every day I walked past posters they'd put up that characterized domestic violence as a thing that only happens to women, and only because of men. I majored in psychology, not women's studies, but my textbooks and some lectures discussed domestic violence and sexism the same way.

I could put up with this for the first 5 years. Then, I was in an abusive relationship with a woman. She put me down constantly, she was manipulative, clingy, and volatile. She could go from lovey-dovey to screaming at me to get out of her apartment in the space of 10 seconds - then she'd get mad at me for putting my shoes on.

Now, she'd been through some rough stuff. One night she told me about how she'd been violently abused as a child, and in previous relationships. She asked me to promise never to hit her, and I did.

The next day she started pushing me around. That 10-second transition from lovey-dovey to screaming at me I mentioned? That was because she smacked me playfully, and I flinched.

Of course, I thought abuse was a thing that can't happen to men, and that women can't do. I thought I had a responsibility not to abandon her, after all she'd been through. I thought the whole thing was my fault. I actually felt like I'd be a terrible person if I stopped returning her calls, until a feminist (and good) friend of mine told me that at this point, I was entitled to avoid her.

At no point did anyone call the relationship abusive, including me.

Nine months after it ended, I was talking to another friend of mine about this. It was the first time I said I was in an abusive relationship, the first time I used that word to describe what had happened. The response I got was "So you hit her?"

Then I walked past those posters for another year, and heard the women in my classes joke about smacking their boyfriends, and no one said a word.

That's why I need a movement that addresses men's issues, and also why feminism isn't it, and can't be it.

jolly_mcfats · 2012-12-03T03:11:00+00:00

I considered myself a feminist for 25 years. I am still in favor of women's rights. I stopped considering myself a feminist when I observed what mainstream feminist lobbying groups were doing. I will also confess that I got tired of accepting misandry from feminist and LGBT friends, especially as I began to view the amplifying effect that their support groups were having on their misandrist attitudes.
In order for me to ever identify as a feminist again, mainstream organizations such as NOW and AAUW would have to cease activities to privilege women over men where men are already at a disadvantage, acknowledge that the "blank slate" is bullshit, advance patriarchy theory into something that actually acknowledges the apex fallacy, recognize in-group preference as something to be on alert against, reverse its course in this "rape culture" hogwash, broaden it's definition of power to recognize that control over ones' life is power, acknowledge the broad history of MEN being oppressed by rulers acting on behalf of themselves and women, take men's rights into their platform, and most importantly, acknowledge their part in creating the crisis facing young boys in school today (read Christina Hoff-Sommers "The war against boys" for a detailed account of what I mean). Feminists would need to start discussing responsibility for their agency, rather than cast themselves either as agents or victims- whichever is most convenient.

Even after these steps, I think we'd at most be ready to move forward into an era of gender egalitarianism, and feminists and masculinists would abandon their previous labels. Feminism has done a good job of highlighting the good in women, and men's shadow side. I think that before we are ready to move into true gender egalitarianism, men have to have their say, and perform a similar role. That process is just beginning, and needs to run its' course.

2012-12-03T04:35:25+00:00

I was raised as a feminist, and strongly identified as a feminist up until a few years ago. Now, in many ways, in many situations, I identify as feminist. However it should be said that I've also identified as non-feminist and even anti-feminist in others.

Feminism and the women's rights movement taught me to see the world in a way that also let me realize male issues exist. While I was told mainly of female issues, the deep-rooted desire for equality shines through and gave me a perspective that my teachers did not have.

There is not a chance I'd be a men's rights activist if I was not brought up as a feminist.

Really though, the labels aren't that important to me. Compared to what a person actually stands for (not just claims to stand for), self-identification is meaningless.

SirSkeptic · 2012-12-03T10:00:09+00:00

I self-identified as a feminist in the 70's. I swallowed the propaganda from about what feminism stood for. But one of the things I did was assume the best of the feminists I hung around with.

When they said we need to help victims of violence, I assumed they mean ALL victims of violence.

When they said child abusers need to be brought to justice - I also assumed they meant both sexes.

Then I attended my first big rally. And one of the organizers stood up on a fountain and made a speech. It was so full of hate filled sexist rhetoric that I was fearful she was going to be lynched by this group of women fighting for equality.

But they all cheered.

Then I stopped making assumptions and started asking questions. It soon became apparent that the language of feminism is heavily coded. It's all doublespeak. Equality=Privilege. Rape=Sex. Love=Hate.

I've been and MRA since the first article I wrote for the Uni newspaper in 1988.

hentaipolice · 2012-12-03T03:22:35+00:00

I was a feminist until I came to this subreddit. When I first saw this place I thought to myself "Men's rights....what's that?" It more like I was really curious to see what was going on here, but when I actually saw that the people of this subreddit had very valid arguments and were very mature and well mannered, I began to question myself.

I wouldn't join feminism even if they started fighting for men's rights. I believe men's rights should fight for men's rights. I think it's very odd to have an ideology thats name is biased towards one gender that fights for rights of both genders.

rightsbot · 2012-12-03T02:10:28+00:00

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2012-12-03T03:55:19+00:00

when I was younger I described myself as a feminist. But when I tried to educate myself and learn more about feminism I was astounded. Almost all the recommended feminist books were full of unbelievable arrogance. They often had an utter disregard for logic. "The Feminine mystique" was the only book I really liked. People can criticize the policies the book helped bring about but I think the book itself was a very human account of a real situation. The solutions might have been wrong but she was talking about her own real problems.

Since I was so disgusted by feminist books I decided to try the MRA stuff for balance. I read "The Myth of Male Power", "Who Stole Feminism" and "The Manipulated Man." I actually felt "The Manipulated Man" was as bad as most feminist books. Mostly emotional hyperbole. But the other two books were incredible. I immediately saw that the MRA position had great merit though I did not immediately disregard feminism. However over the years I have come to see feminism as more and more a force for evil and corruption.

2012-12-03T05:32:06+00:00

Historically anyone who self identifies as a feminist yet shows some compassion for men has been kicked out of the movement and branded as an anti-feminist. Notable examples being Christina Hoff Sommers and Warren Farrell. I know that feminists like to try and claim that feminism is for men too but that's really just sophistry. Feminism and men's rights are pretty much antithetical.

2012-12-03T05:46:29+00:00

I was one, and I'll never go back, even if they start actually advocating for men's rights issues.

I realized not long ago that I was probably always more of an MRA than a feminist. I just didn't know about the MRM, so I assumed feminism was the only route to equality. Man, was I wrong.

2012-12-03T06:48:32+00:00

I was never a feminist, and will never call myself one, though I'm perfectly willing to work with them.

ignatiusloyola · 2012-12-03T06:49:35+00:00

I used to think I was a feminist until I really knew more about it.

But feminism is a philosophical/ideological belief system - in other words, a way to go about deciding whether something is right/wrong, ethical/unethical. It isn't just about rights or equality. And I fundamentally disagree with many of its precepts. Therefore, I could never be a feminist.

rebuildingMyself · 2012-12-03T07:17:54+00:00

I was always taught, from a very early age, to not discriminate based on gender or race. One of the first things I noticed was that all the blatant and open gender discrimination was against men. I was confused because feminists all over were telling me how women were getting discriminated against so that's why it's okay for them to discriminate.

I'm talking schools (line up in alphabetical order, girls before boys), media (millions of examples of misandry), family members (my aunt was pretty anti-male), books in the library ([subject] for girls vs [subject] for girls and boys).

It blew my mind and I was pretty lost until I found sites such as this (first one I found was news.mensactivism.org).

rg57 · 2012-12-03T09:20:18+00:00

I thought I was a feminist for decades, and I told people I was, until I recently encountered atheist feminists. If feminism means men can't ask basic questions of women, while on public sidewalks or in elevators, then I'm against it. If it means censorship and purity and dogma, then I'm against it. I know feminism means different things to different women (and men), but the loudest voices recently seem to be extremist.

Feminism appears to have dominated the gender-based discrimination discussion to the point that men's issues have become a source of laughter (at best), despite the fact that gender roles are enforced on both genders, and that both genders have legitimate complaints, and are each boldly discriminated against. Feminists frequently describe discrimination as a zero-sum game, instead of the lose-lose situation it actually is.

I read this part of reddit because I wanted to find out for myself if this was a "hate group", which seems unlikely based on what I've read. I find that nobody else (i.e. outside r/mensrights) seems to be talking about these issues. I do not consider myself an MRA or whatever, just as I do not consider myself a feminist. I am for equality, and that has to be approached from multiple directions at the same time.

The name "feminism" itself excludes men's rights. As a gay man, the movement I'm most interested in is LGBT. While not always naming each group with a letter (I for intersex, for example), it gets the idea across that it's not just gay men, and not just orientation. Similarly, school GSA's include both gay and straight students. Is there an organization or movement working for women's and men's equal rights, and showing it in their name? I'm not aware of any.

VoodooIdol · 2012-12-03T15:03:38+00:00

I considered myself a feminist until I had to watch my older brother go through the family court system. Then I had to go through it myself and an MRA was born.

MCRiviere · 2012-12-03T16:13:02+00:00

I'm for women's rights and equality but I expect equality to be equality none of this "You can't do ______ because I'm a girl." That's really the only problem I have with it.

FarFromXanadu · 2012-12-03T16:24:24+00:00

I am a feminist. I support mostly Liberal Feminist theologies, and a dab of Marxist Feminist theologies.

I am a feminist because I believe women need equal rights. I am a Men's Rights supporter because I believe men need equal rights. I am not an egalitarian because I have never seen a true egalitarian movement or group.

And yeah, I see some feminists saying crazy things. But I also see people saying crazy things in here all the time. I'm not supporting them for the crazies, I could care less about misogynists in this subreddit and Separatist Feminists and other extremists in other subreddits, but it isn't exactly easy.

If you have a moderate position and want to campaign for both sides, you aren't given the choice from either side. The feminists don't want anything to do with me, I'm probably going to get downvoted just from the get-go because I said I was a feminist here. It's just how it works.

But I sincerely believe that I can fix some of the problems. Not alone, but just by supporting the right people and telling the right people what they're doing is unacceptable or too far with a perspective they can relate to is, in my opinion, worth it. I've told Extremist Feminists not to discriminate against men, and I've told misogynists to not discriminate against women.

Personally, I want a society that's as close to equal as we will ever be able to get. If that means playing both sides, I'll do that until I see results.

EvilPundit · 2012-12-03T02:20:49+00:00

Interesting question.

How many of you were originally feminists?

I was originally an egalitarian. I remember my first questioning and rejection of sexual discrimination occurred when I was about six years old.

However, I would say I was a feminist roughly between the ages of 17 and 30.

How many of you would join feminism if they began actively fighting for men's rights?

Extremely hypothetical question there, since I don't think feminists can fight for men's rights. They'd have to stop being feminists first.

However, assuming they did, I still wouldn't trust them or join them. Been fooled once, not keen to be fooled again.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2012-12-03T03:46:43+00:00

I never knew much about feminism early on, but always thought people should be treated equally regardless of sex, and always thought things were a bit off in society. I started researching feminism before having heard of the MRM, and it was its polemic portrayal of it that led me to look into the MRM.

It felt in many ways similar to my becoming an atheist upon actually looking into religion.

oneiorosgrip · 2012-12-03T04:00:07+00:00

Am I now or have I ever been a feminist?
No, and no.
The majority of the feminist movement's overt, measurable activity is in direct conflict with a belief in equality. All of my life (spanning part of "second wave" feminism and all so far of "third wave" feminism) the movement has been consistently dishonest with me about my role in society, men's roles in society, men's roles in my life, and my role in theirs. Why should I ever identify with a group that has so consistently lied to me?

Would I join feminism if they began actively fighting for men's rights?
Because of the movement's history of dishonesty, I do not trust anyone who wears the title "feminist." For me to buy any feminist's claim of actively fighting for men's rights, it would take undeniable, effective, compelling real-world behavior on a level I sincerely doubt is ever going to happen.
For one thing, feminists have zero chance of convincing me of their altruistic intent as long as they continue to blame men for every ill or indignity, real or perceived, to which they assert female society falls victim.
They would have to stop approaching the discussion on circumcision from the "but we're the more dramatic victims" point of view. That includes the assertion that female circumcision is worse, as if which type is worse has any bearing at all on whether or not the other one is wrong.
They would have to stop approaching everything else from that point of view, as well. I'd have to see them willingly admit that patriarchy theory is a load of bullshit, that the term "rape culture" has been co-opted and misapplied by the movement, and the pay gap as they quote it is a myth, before any claim of feminist altruism toward men would even merit my attention.
When feminists as a group have the guts to denounce and abandon the simultaneous use of public sympathy for female physical limitations in their selective domestic violence victim advocacy and denial of female physical limitations in their selective-attention supported claim of "equal work" for the equal pay argument, I'll think about considering other things they have to say.
When I see NOW lobbying congress to repeal VAWA and replace it with very basic, gender-neutral law which would support due process for both sides of an accusation, regardless of their relationship to each other, I'll consider that a sign of progress.
When they lobby to permit employers to change from a wage-based pay system to a merit-based pay system for jobs in which employee contribution can be measured (like manufacturing positions,) I'll celebrate their new-found enlightenment.
When they advocate for a law blocking judges from knowing the genders of the petitioning parties in civil disputes, I'll consider that a spark of understanding.
They would have to openly admit that there is not a single indignity, not a single form of oppression, not a single human rights violation to which women are subject which is not also visited upon men. In short, they would have to admit that the entire basis of their movement's claims is false.

2012-12-03T05:50:08+00:00

I think the term has become so diluted it is relatively meaningless. There are so many differences within the movement and feminists claiming other feminists aren't true feminists and on top of that a whole load of fucking idiots who will just say anything and call themselves feminists without any real ideology. There are s till some large cohesive groups left but the term feminism is at this point so nebulous as to be almost completely meaningless.

Self identifying as a feminist can have a huge array of possible meanings. It would be better to ask people about their original thoughts on gender than ask whether or not they placed themselves in a category so huge it means almost nothing now.

memymineown · 2012-12-03T02:43:15+00:00

I was a feminist for most of the years I was aware of gender issues.

I wouldn't join feminism if they started fighting for Men's Rights because that is silly. I don't think you can really "join" feminism.

I would join a feminist group if they started fighting for the Men's Rights I am fighting for.

tn5421 · 2012-12-03T12:18:03+00:00

Amused Reply: I considered myself a feminist for all of 72 hours, when I was still bright eyed and bushy tailed and thought that feminism stood for true equality. And then I found /r/MensRights/

Scientificus · 2012-12-03T12:25:44+00:00

I did call myself a feminist, but my understanding of it at that time was the oft-repeated "feminists want equality, if believe in equality then you are a feminist". Once I realised what feminism was truly like and learned of the existence of the MRM (both happened at around the same time for me) I "defected".

Feminist theory is incompatible with men's rights, and feminism without feminist theory is not feminism but egalitarianism. So no.

Amunium · 2012-12-03T13:42:41+00:00

I am and have always been an egalitarian. If you define feminism as one side of that (or both, if you're feeling particularly facetious), then I am a feminist, but I've never called myself one.

Ever since I was a child and didn't know what it was, every encounter with feminism put me off from it. Every time someone on tv identified as a feminist, it was a sure sign they were about to say something stupid or sexist. My mother was (and is) a self-described feminist, and every time she talked about it, it was about how men are biologically superfluous and inferior to women, etc.

Even today, when a female friend tells me that men have issues, that forced gender roles are bad and other reasonable things on the subject, they invariably don't identify as feminists but just decent human beings, while those who want privileges for women or think men are unpredictable, violent and inferior just as invariably do call themselves feminists.

To me, the feminism I've seen and felt has always been negative. Yes, that is anecdotal and doesn't define feminism, but I have never seen a reason to associate myself with the term.

OuiCrudites · 2012-12-03T13:47:18+00:00

Yes and no. I considered myself "feminist-friendly" for awhile because I foolishly believed that men were "dominators" and I wanted to feel that I was a "good man." Though I knew the movement had some issues with bigotry and hypocrisy, as well as lobbying for unjust laws.
No. Feminism is hopelessly flawed, and needs to be regarded in the same light that we now regard things like segregation and the eugenics movement. Also, I don't need to identify with an "ism" to stand for people's rights.

Shattershift · 2012-12-03T14:29:20+00:00

No, although years ago I was mildly sympathetic.
No, not because feminism is some big evil thing, but because the division between men's and women's rights advocates is important and useful.

dm287 · 2012-12-03T20:53:46+00:00

I consider myself a gender-equalist. That means I side with any "true" feminists and MRAs alike, since ideally both would want overall equality in treatment, just with a focus on both sides of the equation. That said, I'll call out anything that I consider inequitable treatment (or even an advocate of this treatment), whether they are a feminist or an MRA. I've seen "feminazis" in my day to day life, and I've also seen misogynists speak under the guise of being an MRA. I just like things to be logical and fair, regardless of gender.

Mitschu · 2012-12-14T02:43:50+00:00

I was originally a radical feminist with self-loathing issues I applied to my entire gender.
Never again. I'll gladly fight for women's rights (as part of human rights) but feminism is corrupted at the core level, and no amount of facepaint will change that. "How many of you would join NAMBLA if they began actively fighting for men's rights?" is an equivalent question.

r_rships_account · 2012-12-03T04:17:47+00:00

I was an equality feminist till I was 17.
Does not compute.

mikesteane · 2012-12-03T08:55:57+00:00

The surface politics of feminism and the underlying psychology, or psychopathy to be blunt, are two entirely different things. Calling yourself a feminist runs the risk of identifying you with the mentality that runs underneath the movement.

It is clear to me, for instance, that many feminists hate ordinary women just as much as they hate men. Envy seems to be at the root of a drive to make sure that other women are no happier than they are themselves. Witness, for example, the vitriol that is spewed at any woman who declares, that she is happy as a housewife staying at home while her husband brings home the money.

They are not happy within themselves and, rather than solve their own problems, they would prefer that everyone else also suffers them.Why else would Germaine Greer, who wrote a whole book lamenting the absence of her father from her life (Daddy We Hardly Knew You), have spent so much time and energy railing against the family structure itself?

Scandimrthrwway · 2012-12-03T18:24:25+00:00

1) I don't like to identify myself or my world-views through symbols nor ideologies. I don't identify myself as masculist, feminist, MRA whatever. I'm interested in ideas and viewpoints. MR has one of the freshest and most interesting PoV right now, and I feel more sympathy towards them (as underdogs) rather than established feminist-culture. Womens rights movements do not need my support as much as they.

2) I would distance myself further from feminism. It's not wrong to stand for a non-inclusive agenda. Women's rights and empowerment is a noble goal I'm fully supporting. Problem is - talk is cheap and execution is all what matters.

The feminist movement has mutated from being for something (women's rights) into defining themselves through what they are against (patriarchy of white cis-males). Cross-sectionality, "being for good against bad" sounds nice and all, but in practice it dilutes the umbrella term into something which can mean almost anything (and thus meaning nothing). I don't see how men's rights could ever really equally fit to the historical feminist framework - as "blaming men in one way or the other" is pretty much the last standing tenent still linking the modern movement to suffragettes et al.

I won't mind marching and partying with Pride-folk precisely because I know what they stand for. Feminism is already too vague to get behind for. It can mean anything from man-taxes to free contraceptives. Increasing inclusiveness just dilutes it even further. Let them do what they do best - work towards rights and emancipation of women - and let LGBT, Men's rights, anti-racists and other civil right movements do their thing.

2012-12-03T16:04:09+00:00

The leftist cohorts that are running amok around here were probably all feminists at one point.

Title	Query: Are you now or have you ever been a feminist?
Author	EnigmaticInk
Upvotes	15
Comments	37
Date	December 3, 2012 2:08 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/146g4o/query_are_you_now_or_have_you_ever_been_a_feminist/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/query-are-you-now-or-have-you-ever-been-a-feminist.1007734 https://theredarchive.com/post/1007734

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