As a feminist, I want to say to r/mensrights: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. I believe feminism strives for equality, and the issues you bring up here are valid and not petty.

Alanna · 2012-05-03T11:53:48+00:00

I agree.

The party line around here is that all feminism is really female chauvinism, and that if someone really cared about equality they would call themselves an egalitarian. But the same applies to men's rights advocates of course. I've decided to break with the pack and welcome egalitarian feminists such as yourself. It's possible to focus on either female or male issues and still acknowledge and support the issues of the other genders.

The biggest complaint I've had about feminists is that most of the ones I've encountered respond with contempt and hostility to the mere mention of men's rights. No constructive conversation is possible when it starts like that. So I appreciate your support.

rightsbot · 2012-05-03T06:20:20+00:00

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fondueguy · 2012-05-03T16:32:52+00:00

Then please read this

vegibowl · 2012-05-03T22:16:11+00:00

Please join us at /r/LadyMRAs to continue the conversation! Thank you for your honesty.

FreddyDeus · 2012-05-03T19:07:06+00:00

The party line around here is that all feminism is really female chauvinism

Feminism is chauvinistic. It is often claimed that feminism is about nothing other than equality. But there is such an unbelievably vast amount of evidence to the contrary, so no-one who takes any real (and objective) notice of the ideological beliefs of feminism could seriously claim that equality is at the core of the movement.

Here, briefly, are some of the fundamental tenets of feminist thought. I'm using the stuff that is so often repeated in the public domain, what I like to call 'popular' feminism. You can research 'academic' feminism for yourself, there is so much of it, and it is so verbose and contradictory, that I cannot do it justice here.

Males behave the way they do because that is the way they are 'programmed' to behave. Male behaviour is in no way influenced by women. What women say, do or think has no effect upon males whatsoever.

This is one of my favourites. This lets women off the hook for many things. For example, feminism rightly argues that it is women who have done the vast bulk of child-rearing throughout history, and that also includes boys. The same is substantially true today.

One might conclude, therefor, that everything feminism finds wrong with men (which is frankly pretty much everything) has to some degree been influenced by the way in which women raise boys. One might reasonably suggest that men are the products of the attitudes and behaviours their mothers, grandmothers, aunts and largely female school-teachers instill in them. But according to feminist ideology that would be a stupid conclusion, because feminism has decided that women have no influence on males at all.

This tenet of feminism is also handy in relationships. Feminists argue that men beat women because men are genetically pre-disposed to violence. A woman can not, according to feminist 'principle', have created a situation in which a man reaches the elastic limit of his temper or sanity, because the man cannot be affected by her behaviour, however extreme.

I could go on even more, but I'm sure you can see how convenient this belief is, and how broad its implications are with regard to holding men accountable for everything bad and women accountable for nothing. In fact this tenet is vital to feminist ideology for this simple reason: If feminism acknowledged that men are influenced by women, and that sons are influenced by mothers, grandmothers, aunts and female teachers, this truth would render the concept of the patriarchy untenable. Because they would by default be acknowledging that we actually lived in a matriarchal society in which women condition boys to become fathers, providers and protectors. And also of course, that boys are trained to behave in a chivalrous way toward women (what feminism likes to call 'benevolent sexism').

Here's another one I'm sure you've heard. Probably hundreds of times.

Women [in the workplace] have to prove themselves all the time, because men cannot accept that women are good at what they do.

I cannot recall just how many times I've heard this. And back in the 80s and 90s you could literally hear this sentiment being expressed on an almost daily basis, with women nodding in agreement. Even women I knew who didn't, and had never, worked (I'm talking about 6th form and college feminists here, as well).

It's easy to see what feminists want it to mean. But what does it actually mean? Well this is easy. Just reverse the sentence to make it a 'positive' statement rather than a negative. So it becomes 'women [in the workplace] shouldn't have to prove themselves every day, men should just accept that women are good at what they do'.

So ladies, none of that pesky 'acquiring skills' and' improving your talents' and 'working hard' nonsense for you. No, we men should just accept that you're bloody good at your job.

Now, if I had to have brain-surgery, and I was given a choice of two surgeons, should I go with the one that has the highest success rate and the lowest patient mortality rate, or should I go with the one who demands that I just 'accept' that they are good at their job. Hmmm... tricky choice...

I was going to write more, but fuck me, I've only done two very basic examples, and it's already becoming the first chapter of a book.

But the two examples I have just given are demonstrative of a wider attitude in ideological feminism. My first example points us in this direction:

Women are never responsible for anything. As I've already said, women raise boys to become men, but are in no way responsible for the outcome. Women are never responsible for conflict in relationships. Victim blaming teaches us that women should never be expected to exercise common sense regarding their own personal welfare.

This could go on forever. But there is certainly no way you can look at the vast body of feminist thinking with any degree of objectivity, and say that it is not chauvinist.

ExpendableOne · 2012-05-03T19:21:29+00:00

I believe feminism strives for equality...

It doesn't and has never. You are not a feminist, you are an egalitarian who calls herself/himself a feminist because someone wrongfully convinced you that the word "feminism" is synonymous to "equality". It isn't. The sooner you drop this misconception(and that label), the sooner you will actually start helping men, men's rights and genuine gender equality.

2012-05-03T18:42:21+00:00

We at mensrights focus on Equality in every aspect. Whether it is female or male disposition.

2012-05-03T20:40:57+00:00

I can appreciate your brand of feminism, what I dislike is the "men are the scum of the earth" feminists.

ENTP · 2012-05-03T15:38:26+00:00

I welcome you but I do not welcome feminism. (There's a big distinction there, trust me.)

Feminism has too much anti-male, non-evidence based bullshit in it's underlying theory and dogma to be an egalitarian movement.

Feminism has hurt men too much through legislation (VAWA, Fed.R Evidence 13), law enforcement policy (the Duluth Model, primary aggressor policies, the "dear colleague letter that has caused universities to remove presumptive innocence from college students accused of sexual misconduct), and through feminist campaigns like "Men can stop rape", which paint men as vicious, violent oppressors.

If you'd like to take the plunge, and become an egalitarian, then I could welcome not only you, but your ideology as well!

Besides, by showing solidarity with the men's movement, most feminists will not accept you. Why continue to identify with a movement that not only ignores men's issues, but actively hurts men?

Roulette88888 · 2012-05-03T14:19:45+00:00

You'll find that a lot of people will display some hostility at your self-identification as a feminist, but if the causes you beleive in are similar to ours, then you should, mostly, be welcome.

loose-dendrite · 2012-05-03T06:46:08+00:00

Gender egalitarian? Perchance a plain egalitarian?

akuta · 2012-05-03T18:38:28+00:00

I agree completely... We should be striving for equality, not special circumstance for each sex. I, like many others in this subreddit, welcome egalitarians of both sexes. Thank you for acknowledging that both sexes have issues to overcome and that maybe we just need to do this together instead of creating a battle.

erock0546 · 2012-05-03T18:17:08+00:00

I like you. You seem like a god person.

notfamousguy · 2012-05-04T01:22:02+00:00

Upvote submitted

herpderpdoo · 2012-05-04T05:29:03+00:00

you're entirely right, and I hope to god most of the comments have been the same, as /r/mensrights hasnt exactly been a poster child for acceptance. As a movement it's so easy to villify and blame, take the worst of the worst and put it up on display and get (rightfully but easily) offended. When you get down to it, both mensrights and feminism is comprised of people who believe in equality of genders, and bigots not deserving of the title

ftothem · 2012-05-04T05:46:58+00:00

Yay! I'm a fellow feminist who's also found valid issues here, and plans to work towards improving them as I can.

To MRA overall, thanks for making me aware of lots of issues I hadn't thought about before. To those of you who have been polite and respectful in your dialogue, I really appreciate it =)

LeeAnnV · 2012-05-03T21:23:09+00:00

It is people like you that misandric majority of feminists hide behind. Trust me, its better to drop the label.

2012-05-03T16:50:51+00:00

As someone who cares about justice and gender equality, there's something wrong with your head if you support feminism and I will never consider myself allies with a movement that is a direct enemy of justice and gender equality.

drinkthebleach · 2012-05-03T22:50:10+00:00

| feminist

| username is a rape joke

Either somethings fishy or this one has a sense of humor.

2012-05-04T03:52:22+00:00

Always happy to see feminists admit that MR has valid concerns!

I'm for equality, but prefer not to label myself as a feminist. I like egalitarianist.

wavegeek · 2012-05-04T00:08:47+00:00

OK just to be sure.. can you verify you support:

Women having to register for the draft along with men.
Due process for men accused of sexual assault, including in colleges. This includes the right to question their accuser and freedom from double jeopardy.
Men having the right to a "financial abortion" just as women have as right to a physical abortion.
An assumption of 50:50 custody of children and no child support payments except when clearly justified (eg when one party is shown to be unfit as a parent).
Equal punishments for male and female criminals.
Significant funding being directed to reduce and eliminate the 6 year gap in life expectancy between men and women, the 3-4 fold suicide gap, and similar large gaps in violent death and physical assault.
Significant funding being directed to addressing the gap in literacy, school dropouts, the gap in college attendance and the large numbers of men in prison.

Please list the steps you have taken to have these beliefs turned into law eg letters to your congressional representative.

Please also confirm that you do not accept the patriarchy theory which states that men, simply by being men, are privileged and are not allowed to suggest they are in any way disadvantaged, because their opinions are invalid simply by virtue of being men.

Again please provide details of public statements you have made to this effect.

goshy900 · 2012-05-03T13:55:35+00:00

This is not r/circlejerk

DavidByron · 2012-05-03T22:55:56+00:00

Sorry but I see feminism as a hate movement. Your statement is like a member of the KKK speaking to the NAACP saying "We're cool, right? We're both fighting racism, right?"

No.

Saying you are fighting for women's rights is bullshit because there are no rights that women lack. Women are the privileged class and feminists are gender oppressors. Anything feminists do now is either attacking men or privileging women, or both. If you actually believed in equality you could not possibly have failed to notice that there's no actual issues of equality to fight for women.

So tell me why you didn't notice that please. If you are into equality how come you don't seem to know anything about it?

truesound · 2012-05-03T12:12:31+00:00

If you are really striving for equality, put your money where your mouth is and drop the gynocentric label and adopt that of "egalitarian."

You won't. Because when it comes down to it, you want yours first and if accentuating and capitolizing on an arbitrary characteristic will get it, you're all for it.

Title	As a feminist, I want to say to r/mensrights: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. I believe feminism strives for equality, and the issues you bring up here are valid and not petty.
Author	crepeist
Upvotes	266
Comments	127
Date	May 3, 2012 6:18 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/t4q3o/as_a_feminist_i_want_to_say_to_rmensrights_thank/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/as-a-feminist-i-want-to-say-to-rmensrights-thank.1022616 https://theredarchive.com/post/1022616

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