Whistling at a woman set to become criminal offense in UK, but you can still cut part of your son's penis off no problem 🤡🌍

[–]ipwr85 103 points104 points105 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]copeharderhun 75 points76 points77 points 3 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Yup, here's some of the things that can happen in the UK from both my experiences and knowledge

・A woman can sexually assault you and they will do nothing

・A woman can screech obscenities at you in the street and they will do nothing

・Women can call for the death of all men out loud and that's fine. But apparently whistling is a crime

・On the subject of whistling, women can still screech from across the street how you're "hot" and to "take your clothes off". This won't be treated as a crime under the new law. How strange

・Women basically never get sent to jail no matter what. In 2018 the "Justice" Secretary announced that female offenders who didn't commit serious crimes would not be sent to jail. This did not apply to men

・On the subject of prisons, in the UK women in prisons are allowed to wear whatever clothes they like because if they don't it "harms their self dignity". Men do not have this right. Similarly, female offenders get free phone calls while men do not. ONE, yes only ONE UK politician has raised a storm about this, and he gets mocked everywhere.

・All literature regarding prisons in the UK seems to be focused around making things better for female offenders. Despite the fact their conditions are already better, they are far less likely to go to jail, and when they do they get much lower sentences

・A woman can assault a man and basically nothing will happen. Meanwhile if a man uses any level of self protection against a woman he is fucked.

I could go on but whatever. Some of these aren't UK specific but many - especially those regarding prison - absolutely are. The UK Justice system is completely fucked. I left the UK 5 years ago and have never looked back. No desire to ever go back. I am applying for a citizenship change soon and if it happens I will gladly remove my UK citizenship and all ties I have to that disgusting pathetic country.

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[–]Lumpy_Constellation -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

We're talking about street harassment here. Wolf whistling, yelling at women on the street, and following them around trying to get them to talk to you are obviously different from asking a woman if you can buy her a drink at a bar. These are not missteps that could be misconstrued, they are clear examples of street harassment.

If men have any issue clarifying the difference between asking someone out and harassing them, they should ask themselves: "if a gay man were to do this to me, would I feel harassed?"

A gay man offers to buy you a drink, you say "no", he walks away without issue - obviously not harassment. You say "no" and he spends the next hour asking "why not?", sitting uncomfortably close to you, blocking the exit, and insisting he buy you a drink anyway - obviously harassment.

A gay man approaches you and tells you how nice you look and asks for your number, you say "no", he walks away without issue - obviously not harassment. A gay man yells at you from across the street that you're hot and he wants to see your bare ass - clearly harassment. A gay man asks for your number, you say "no", and he follows you for a few blocks telling you he just wants to be friends and asking why you're being an asshole - obviously harassment.

[–]NibblyPig 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

If I didn't read stories of people's intentions being misconstrued near constantly on reddit and occasionally in the media, I'd be inclined to agree.

How would you summarise those, how about 'unwanted harassment'? That's how they summed it up where I live, and displayed it in a list: unwanted - flirting, catcalling, compliments, hugs, jokes, touching, little kisses, attention, staring, photos, drinking, out-numbering a woman, grinding, grabbing or groping. This list is displayed around my city on anti-harassment signs and is also part of a gigantic mural in the city center about three storeys tall

If a gay man did any of those things to me other the last three (unless done in jest) or taking photos, I'd be fine with it provided it didn't get too excessive. If they did step over the line, I'd tell them off, I wouldn't phone the police, file a sexual harassment claim, or tell all of my friends I was sexually assaulted so that they demonise him.

If there was a steady campaign constantly telling me to though and to be afraid, then perhaps I would be persuaded however.

I'd love for you to be appointed as the judge of what constitutes harassment, but sadly it's a case of self-reporting. If you feel harassed, you're harassed. And just about anything can make you feel that way, such as if a really ugly guy asks your phone number.

It's very risky to get involved with that kind of message being forced down women's throats. Better to just wait for a more opportune moment and leave women alone, let the assholes that don't give a shit about the rules have a go. Sadly, an opportune moment may never arise.

I should add that such a law won't be "don't whistle at women", it will be far more vague and encompassing. What would you make such a law? How about 'No unwanted harassment'? Don't forget your mind-reading cap

[–]Lumpy_Constellation 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

how about 'unwanted harassment'? That's how they summed it up where I live, and displayed it in a list: unwanted - flirting, catcalling, compliments, hugs, jokes, touching, little kisses, attention, staring, photos, drinking, out-numbering a woman, grinding, grabbing or groping.

Here's a real easy way to legally define "unwanted" if that was to be used for street harassment - if the recipient of the advances says "no" or does not actively and happily participate in your advances, then they are unwanted.

Flirting with a woman who's making eye contact and laughing and enjoying herself = obviously wanted flirting. Flirting with a woman who's shifting around, looks uncomfortable, keeps trying to leave the situation, turns away from you, not making eye contact = obviously unwanted.

If that's in any way still confusing, The Equality Act of 2010 further defined sexual harassment as "unwanted behavior that creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment" - so it goes even further to identify exactly how "unwanted behavior" is defined and legally prosecuted. (https://www.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/sh/stalking-harassment/what-is-stalking-harassment/)

The UK police state "It's harassment if the unwanted behaviour has happened more than once", so again if a woman does not reciprocate the advances or tells you to stop and you do it again. (https://www.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/sh/stalking-harassment/what-is-stalking-harassment/)

This is not an issue of things being unclear - if anything, it's an issue of men not being properly taught to read body language bc emotional intelligence isn't considered "masculine".

If there was a steady campaign constantly telling me to though and to be afraid, then perhaps I would be persuaded however.

What if you had been sexualized by gay men from a young age? Say, your family members regularly warned you not to dress in shorts or run around shirtless when you were under the age of 12 bc your child body might be arousing for grown men around you. Or that your school dress code was meant to dissuade gay male teachers and gay students from being distracted by your upper chest and shoulders.

Imagine the impact that messaging would have on gay men! - "you aren't capable of controlling yourself, it's the other men who are at fault if you get a boner, men shouldn't dress in a way that provokes you, it's not your fault if you can't help yourself".

What if the most popular movies were all about a man saying "no, I'm not interested" and then being "persuaded" by the gay male protagonist to change his mind? Imagine the lesson gay men would learn - "'no' doesn't mean 'no', it means 'try harder'. Some men are just playing hard to get, it's not harassment to follow them around and give them unwanted attention, it's romantic!"

A "steady campaign" indeed, just not in the way you seem to be identifying it.

If you feel harassed, you're harassed. And just about anything can make you feel that way, such as if a really ugly guy asks your phone number.

See definitions above - this isn't true. But furthermore:

In the UK it's a matter of basic understanding on the part of the harasser (again, this is simple harassment - sexual harassment is even more strictly defined). It's legally defined as "a course of conduct which amounts to harassment of another and which the defendant knows, or ought to know amounts to harassment of another." (https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/stalking-and-harassment ). And, again, with sexual harassment we're talking about behavior that's intimidating, degrading, or otherwise hostile and that's happened more than once.

The defense for someone who's been accused of harassment also has to do with whether the person claiming they were harassed is being reasonable or not - "in the particular circumstances the pursuit of the course of conduct was reasonable". So an innocent man would just prove that his behavior was reasonable given the circumstances.

So, if a woman has indicated she's not interested, you continue the behavior, it creates a hostile environment, and you still struggle to understand how it's harassment, that's 100% on you, not the law. This isn't "an ugly guy asks for your number", it's "an ugly guy asks for your number, you decline to give it to him, he asks again, you decline again, he continues asking and starts following you as you walk away".

If they did step over the line, I'd tell them off, I wouldn't phone the police, file a sexual harassment claim

Then you're exactly like most women, bc the vast majority of harassment and even assault against women goes unreported.

or tell all of my friends I was sexually assaulted so that they demonise him.

If a gay man was going around sexually harassing straight men you wouldn't warn your friends about him? You wouldn't even say "hey that guy groped my ass and wouldn't take 'no' for an answer"? You'd just let your friends find out he's hostile and potentially dangerous on their own? What if he got drunk and forced himself on one of them? You wouldn't want to protect them from that kind of trauma?

Women aren't telling their friends to "demonize" men, they're telling their friends so they know this guy doesn't respect "no" and could be dangerous.

[–]NibblyPig 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

The first major issue is that the legal side of it is only part of the worry. Before we even look at that, we have to consider the non-legal ramifications.

I don't think people are shying away from engaging with women purely on technical legal grounds alone. Nobody wants to be a pariah because they said the wrong thing (e.g. "hello, I like your hat") to the wrong woman. The hyper-vigilance caused by the constant barrage of media messages telling women to be scared and demonising all men means that an otherwise good-natured person may falsely interpret something as an unwanted sexual advance. The consequences of which may be devastating for the man involved, without any legal action being taken. Without even remediation through work being undertaken. Just by word of mouth alone.

I should add the hyper-vigilance goes both way and harms men, but you probably don't care about that part.

There was a story I read the other day on reddit, which I can't seem to find now, about how a guy asked a woman out on the train who he'd noticed a few times (same commute). The woman said no thanks, and the guy said no problem, apologised and moved to another carriage. She told her coworker, and her coworker said she should report him to the police for being creepy and harassing women on the train. Where did that kind of attitude come from?

if anything, it's an issue of men not being properly taught to read body language bc emotional intelligence isn't considered "masculine".

Great way to blame the men with a triple whammy. Hey guys, this super controversial topic that results in endless terrible situations, confusion, and outcry, you do realise it's absolutely your fault for not being able to essentially mind-read and predict behaviours with perfect accuracy? And it's also you fault you can't do it because you're not emotionally intelligent enough as you don't consider it 'masculine' to be it, and of course all your behaviours are defined by chest thumping macho contests.

That has to be one of the worst things I've read in a while.

What if you had been sexualized by gay men from a young age?

I suppose one of those media narratives I mentioned might indeed be "The world is just full of child predators, on every street corner, just waiting to strike."

I do recall being told not to talk to strangers or get into a car with them. The impact is you have to take care of yourself. That's about it. If you have massive phobias and emotional trauma from being told to be street smart then therapy might be what you need.

It's really hard to understand your gay narrative though. It's also really hard to understand your legal narrative, too, you're acting like every sexual harassment case is open and shut based on two lines of the legal code, when the problem is that everything is subjective, including the laws you quote which are also subjective.

So, if a woman has indicated she's not interested, you continue the behavior, it creates a hostile environment, and you still struggle to understand how it's harassment, that's 100% on you, not the law.

Yeah but the thing men are afraid of isn't that. It's a straw man. This is what men are afraid of:

A woman has indicated she's not interested, ~~you continue the behavior,~~ it creates a hostile environment, ~~and you still struggle to understand how it's harassment,~~ that's 100% on you, ~~not the law~~ and the law too.

[–]Lumpy_Constellation -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm going to respond to one point here, mostly bc I've had a very long week and weekend but also bc it's the perfect example of you choosing to misunderstand or misrepresent what I've said based on your preconceived notions. I've found this kind of jump to conclusions is common among MRAs and it might be why you hear "don't harass women" and jump to "we must be afraid of every possible interaction"

Great way to blame the men with a triple whammy. Hey guys, this super controversial topic that results in endless terrible situations, confusion, and outcry, you do realise it's absolutely your fault for not being able to essentially mind-read and predict behaviours with perfect accuracy? And it's also you fault you can't do it because you're not emotionally intelligent enough as you don't consider it 'masculine' to be it, and of course all your behaviours are defined by chest thumping macho contests.

What I said: men aren't properly taught emotional intelligence bc it's not considered masculine

What you seem to think I said: men are evil, it's all their fault that they don't understand body language, it's all their fault for not being mind readers, they're purposely lacking in emotional intelligence.

Dude. It's not the fault of any man that he wasn't taught something in childhood. Our social structure places high value on certain stereotypes of masculinity - some of these stereotypes are positive (like being a protective father) while others are harmful (like hiding strong emotions of sadness or loneliness). Young boys should be encouraged to hone their emotional intelligence - the fact that they're not is a problem, and they are the victims in this situation.

The fact that women and men have different grasps on emotional intelligence means that women think they're being clear when their body language is showing discomfort, and men aren't always picking up on that body language. Women think they're making it obvious that something is unwanted but they're not embarrassing the man or angering him bc then he has the opportunity to leave without a bruised ego, meanwhile men don't pick up on those signals and think they just need to keep trying.

[–]NibblyPig 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I've found this kind of jump to conclusions is common among MRAs and it might be why you hear "don't harass women" and jump to "we must be afraid of every possible interaction"

It does sound a bit like, one woman was murdered in London (Sarah Everard), we must be afraid of every possible interaction doesn't it. How about that. Except it's somewhat more common, men don't really care for emotional hysteria, only logical hysteria based on probabilities.

What I said: men aren't properly taught emotional intelligence bc it's not considered masculine

Because what you said is wrong on multiple levels. Firstly you say 'properly taught', even in the learning aspect of teaching, you are blaming the men, not the teachers, in the way you've worded your question. If people aren't learning something we usually blame those teaching for not using proper methods. You have elected not to.

Secondly, you're saying men have diminished emotional intelligence, which is of course completely ridiculous considering they dominate almost every single field of science, knowledge and academia.

Thirdly, you're saying that men don't learn emotional intelligence because it's not considered masculine. You suggest men only learn things they consider masculine, like we're a bunch of chest thumping gorillas that gender all of our actions, which is very offensive as well as ignorant.

Dude. You're literally judging men on how useful they are to you and society. Here's some information for you. Men like to hide their emotions. Men want to deal with their sadness themselves. It is a core part of being a man. If you were a man, you would understand that. Sometimes they can't, it's too much and bad things happen. If you want to fix men's problems, remove the cause of their stress, namely all the issues they complain about with society. One of those issues is your horribly sexist comment, it's typical of the thing that men have to endure a lot that makes them upset.

Otherwise you're basically flogging a donkey while blaming it for having no emotional intelligence to deal with its problems in the way that benefits you the most.

With your little example of men and women not understanding each other, how about considering that the woman is lacking the emotional intelligence to recognise she's not conveying her message in a way that can be understood? I expect that never crossed your mind, did it.

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How would fighting to end circumcision label you as "misogynistic creeps, who want to oppress women's rights and turn them into sex objects"?

no one in power cares about men's rights as that would ruin their reputation.

Certainly there was a time when lobbying for women's rights was something that would ruin a politician's career. There was also a time when lobbying for the rights of POC would do the same.

No one in power cared about women voting in the 19th and early 20th centuries, no one in power cared about getting rid of Jim Crowe laws in the 40s and 50s.

Women who wanted to vote were labeled as gender traitors who wanted to harm men. Black people who wanted equal rights were labeled as greedy people who wanted to rape whites and take what wasn't theirs.

But over time feminists and racial advocates lobbied and marched, made connections with existing politicians, ran for office, lobbied for votes for friendly politicians and their own members to get elected.

It takes a hell of a lot of work, and that's why I'm so surprised that here in this MRA sub this discussion of "how do we fix this?" almost never happens! It's just a lot of what you're doing - "woe is me, nothing will ever change, there's no point".

[–]Fearless-File-3625 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lumpy_Constellation 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

But the system was initially designed to cater to white men - women and POC had to fight to be allowed to vote, own property, work in certain fields, etc.

Hell, married women were considered the property of their husband at one point! That's certainly not a system that makes it easy to make changes for women. Imagine fighting for a voice when you weren't allowed to vote, when your money and personhood legally belonged to another person. And yet, women did it. POC did it.

It took decades and sometimes centuries for women and POC to gain even basic rights. To say "men have tried and failed and therefore it is impossible to implement change" is nothing but an excuse. It's the equivalent of a toddler throwing their blocks and saying "I've been trying to build a castle for 4 minutes now, it's obviously impossible!"

[–]Fearless-File-3625 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

But the system was initially designed to cater to white men - women and POC had to fight to be allowed to vote, own property, work in certain fields, etc.

Ethnicity is irrelevant, women got it better everywhere.

Those who owned property, got the right to vote - which not all white men had. All men, whether they owned property, had the right to vote or were white, had to fight in wars, which no women ever had to do. It is not right to vote, it is a privilege to vote for women.

What it is actually equivalent is a kid making fun of his friends for not being able to build a castle, when his own was build by his parents. Just because you are served on a silver platter, doesn't mean everyone else.

Instead of womansplaining here, why don't you go around and do some men's right activism in the real life? let's see how long it will take you become a pariah.

[–]Lumpy_Constellation 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Those who owned property, got the right to vote - which not all white men had

Women were allowed to vote in the US in 1920. In the UK it was 1928. This was decades after non-property owning men and men of color received that vote. All men were allowed to vote

All men, whether they owned property, had the right to vote or were white, had to fight in wars, which no women ever had to do. It is not right to vote, it is a privilege to vote for women.

If the right to vote was based on draft eligibility, then huge numbers of men wouldn't have had the right based on their medical conditions. Voting is about legal adult citizenship, not draft eligibility. It is a right.

Feminists have been fighting against conscription for centuries. Feminist organizations today still fight for legislature that would put an end to the draft altogether, and the official feminist stances has been and continues to be anti-draft.

It was not feminists or women who decided that men had to fight in wars, it was men. Based on voting patterns and official feminist stances, if women had been allowed to participate in government earlier, the draft may have been avoided. You're angry at the wrong people.

What it is actually equivalent is a kid making fun of his friends for not being able to build a castle, when his own was build by his parents. Just because you are served on a silver platter, doesn't mean everyone else.

As this sub regularly points out, feminist groups are actively fighting for the change they want. They have been for centuries.

So it's more like if a group of kids spent centuries building a sand castle, carefully adding to it with each new generation and ensuring it didn't topple over. And another group of kids spent that same time throwing sand at and making fun of the other groups' sandcastle, and then suddenly started crying that it's not fair their sandcastle isn't as big and elaborate.

And beyond just that, you're still just complaining about someone else's sand castle instead of trying to build your own! Women didn't sit around lamenting the fact that men got to decide what careers they could have or when they were allowed to vote or open their own bank account. They got off their asses and worked for the change they wanted to see.

Instead of pointing and crying about someone else's sand castle, how about you focus on building your own?

Instead of womansplaining here, why don't you go around and do some men's right activism in the real life? let's see how long it will take you become a pariah.

This is my favorite thing you guys say.

I'm a social services employee. Men are the largest group of recipients for social services. My job is to advocate for men's rights - I help homeless men access resources and find housing and employment, and I attend city council meetings and lobby my representatives for resources that make my job and their lives easier. Things like accessible medical care for at risk men, legislature that protects male victims of abuse and sexual violence, and reforms for our police and legal system that would put more stringent sentences on white women when they are accused of harassment and abuse.

I've been doing it for 8 years. I'm not yet a pariah.

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