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What a mature take on things.

Danog123

December 25, 2013

377 upvotes

/r/MensRights

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Post Information

Title	What a mature take on things.
Author	Danog123
Upvotes	377
Comments	70
Date	December 25, 2013 2:36 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1to9mc/what_a_mature_take_on_things/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-a-mature-take-on-things.1155203 https://theredarchive.com/post/1155203

Comments

[–]scarecrow569_ 133 points134 points135 points 12 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Suitecake -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]scarecrow569_ -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Suitecake 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

So you have two good, general strategies to countering someone who challenges the significance of quantity (in this case, ratios).

First, you can simply turn the exact quantity around in the reverse. "A 1:5 suicide rate among men is not misandry, but a 1:5 sexual assault rate (or what have you) among women is misogyny? Why the double standard?"

Second, you can point out an even smaller quantity as a way of proving your point that much further. You actually did this in your initial post:

But in a culture where 1000 dead men are a statistic and 1 dead woman is a tragedy is this really surprising?

Formally, this is a powerful persuasive element.

For your second post, however, you instead chose the third: Requiring of your opponent an even more significant quantity than the one you've posited. You presented this as if you were actually doing the second strategy. This, clearly, doesn't really make any sense, and doesn't help your position.

It sounds super petty, since despite this it's pretty clear what you mean, but this is the sort of thing that loses debates. Clarity is the king of argument. If you were having this argument in a sub-reddit less frequented by MRAs, you would probably get downvoted into oblivion for it.

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[–]JakeDDrake 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

One such was Private Ernest Atkins who was on leave from the Western Front. He was riding a tram when he was presented with a white feather by a girl sitting behind him. He smacked her across the face with his pay book saying: "Certainly I'll take your feather back to the boys at Passchendaele. I'm in civvies because people think my uniform might be lousy, but if I had it on I wouldn't be half as lousy as you."

You know what? If someone symbolically shamed me, alleging I'm too cowardly to join service, after coming home from fighting in the hell that was fucking Passchendaele...

Seriously, six hundred thousand people died at that battle, and that's just a lowball estimate. Mud up to your waist, people drowning to death in their sleep, only to bob up some days later right in front of you... screams in the night, in no discernible language, as the person babbling is dying of a feverous infection, somewhere in the dark and shadowy trenches.

You don't call a man a coward after he's wrenched his ass free from the jaws of oblivion. You just simply don't.

edit: Unless, of course, you're willing to put yourself in the position that he just came from! But I see not a single soul who handed white feathers out jumping at the chance to help out on the front lines.

And trust me, there was plenty of need for both men and women out in the field. Nurses, administrative assistance, operating telegraphs and humanitarian work like maintaining hospices and the like.

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[–]theQuandary14 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't think you're right. You discredit women's suffering, and make it into a men's plight. That's not sensible. Rape and murder of women is bad, and it does not benefit the victim at all.

The implication of this statement is that the rape and murder of men is less bad and sometimes benefits the victim. If this implication is not true, then any mention of a specific gender is unnecessary on your part.

In your post I responded to, you were the person who made light of the deaths of men. My only point was that women are almost universally more protected and suffer far less physical injury and early death. This does not credit or discredit the suffering of any individual nor does it put forward the idea that the rape and/or murder of women is ever justifiable.

Quantity of death and morality of death are separate issues. Men's deaths and women's deaths are equally as terrible morally no matter what quantity of them may occur. However, when we look at quantity, men are clearly the most numerous.

Here's our trolley problem: despite both being morally equal, they are not quantatively equal, so which group is more deserving of assistance given that there is a finite amount of assistance available?

And about the war, violent crimes and job fatalities as i mentioned earlier to /u/Bartab , is not a direct result of misandry, but rather the male culture and zeitgeist. It's a horrible thing, indeed. But to call it misandry is not right

Once again, you are making the case that while women have no choice, men are choosing of their own free will to be victims of violence, put in harms way, or fight in wars (your specific examples).

(note: for sake of discussion flow, I do not qualify ever statement with individual exceptions as I believe them to be self-evident) If men are raised to be violent, then who raised them? Most violent males in the united states come from single-mother households. In general, most people believe that women are the most nurturing and it seems to hold that women spend more time with their children (though neither one of these have a causal link to men). If "nurture" is responsible, then women are responsible for all the deaths of men as women trained them to do such actions.

If men are naturally violent, then either they cannot be trained (which should be forcing a reevaluation of morality) or can be trained, but women as primary nurturers are either unable or unwilling.

Finally, there is the option that men can be raised to be non-violent, yet choose to become violent. Considering the net result of violence, it would only be logical to follow with the statement that "men are stupid and/or evil" as they either lack the intelligence to recognize cause and effect else they do, but choose self-destructive behavior anyway.

I would put out for your final consideration that if you believe that "male culture" is responsible for all these evils, then focusing on women will never solve the underlying cause.

All that said, there is the option I subscribe to. There is the belief that the problems men and women are of equal importance. There is the idea that men and women are equally responsible for their actions and instigations. There is the option to provide assistance to victims without consideration of gender. Unfortunately, this is not possible when expanding the idea and quantity of misogyny and eliminating or explaining away misandry altogether.

[–]theskepticalidealist 12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Theophagist 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

is not a direct result of misandry, but rather the male culture

Violent crimes - Males are violent! Violence is MALE culture, therefore it is implied that nonviolence is female culture.

war - Males cause wars! Women never caused a civil war or other such atrocities such as the Falkland War.

Job fatalities - because women are just as strong as men they are equally qualified to do any and all of the dangerous jobs men take, but male culture bullies and terrorizes them out of those industries. Ask any woman, she'll tell you she wishes she was an underwater welder or an iron worker.

Male culture is about the only thing that holds the free secular world together. But according to you male culture itself is the cause of the evils which befall men. If you could just for a moment hear what a disgusting bigot you sound like.

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