Can I be a Feminist and an MRA?

xXCptCoolXx · 2013-11-04T00:52:20+00:00

Can't I support both men and women's rights?

Yes, absolutely. However, your problem arises from construing "feminism" as the only path to solving women's problems. Feminism, in many respects, is not necessarily about equality. Now, as you say the term "Feminism" is quite broad and reflects lots of different thoughts and beliefs, but we fight against the misandric forms and "mainstream feminism" which propagates ideas like rape culture and Patriarchy theory. Those theories are at best pseudo-scientific and at worst they diminish men's issues/concerns and propagate misandry.

You say that feminism is not something we need to be inherently against, and I would have to disagree with you. Women's Rights and equality between men and women are things we support, but many here believe Feminism does not embody those things. I, for one, would love it if feminists were our allies since they're always proclaiming to be about equality and say that their ideology helps men. However, in practice that does not work out. Feminism has fought against our movement, has protested our most innocuous events, and tried to slander us. Because of this it's not just something that we can ignore since they're actively trying to stop us from fighting for the rights of men.

We focus on men's issues and want these issues to be given support and attention, but that doesn't mean we don't recognize that there are women's issues that also need to be solved. Most people here identify as "egalitarians", "equalists", or some other term to show that they believe in equality because that's what the majority of MRAs are after.

TLDR; You can be pro-men's rights and pro-women's rights, but Feminism does not fit with the MRM because of its mainstream ideologies and active efforts to stifle the movement.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2013-11-04T02:19:49+00:00

It depends on what you mean by "feminism."

If we're using a pol-sci/philosophy definition, then you can be both a feminist and an MRA. Almost all MRAs, in fact, are in agreement with First Wave and Early Second Wave feminism (Warren Farrell's The Myth Of Male Power, for example, is basically the Early Second Wave argument applied to men).

The problem is that today's feminist movement (the lobby groups etc) are intellectually dominated by Radical Second Wave and Third Wave feminism (the former being the inventors of patriarchy theory). You cannot subscribe to R2WF or 3WF and be an MRA at the same time.

The reason for this is that R2WF/3WF both support the idea that women are oppressed by the system, men are not, and that any attempt to discuss the issues of men (in a way which doesn't reduce men's issues down to an epiphenomenon of women's issues) is basically an attempt to distract people from how women are oppressed... and thus an attempt to keep women oppressed by maintaining the system.

So, whilst you can be a feminist (by either the First Wave or Early Second Wave definitions) and an MRA (indeed, being an MRA pretty much necessitates agreement with at least First Wave feminism, and most MRAs also agree with Early Second Wave feminism too), today's "official" feminism is Radical Second Wave and Third Wave feminism, which are both incompatible with men's rights advocacy.

rapey_raperson · 2013-11-04T02:34:33+00:00

Let's take one element of your argument:

In an effort to be unbiased, I made a quick look through the front page, most upvoted of all time, and most upvoted this week posts on /r/feminism to see if there was anything that implied feminism was about supplanting men. I couldn't. They mostly seem to be about stopping crimes against women, and breaking stereotypes.

Sounds OK, stopping crime is a good thing. Right? Well, no. Not when the efforts to protect women from crime means pressuring for legislation that discriminates against men. Like VAWA legislation, which discriminates against men whenever domestic violence takes place, even though it is known that women commit 50 percent of all domestic violence, and initiate over 50 percent.

So what you interpret as a harmless discussion about crimes against women, we interpret as the feminists lobbying to institutionalize even more discriminatory laws and legislation.

warspite88 · 2013-11-04T01:00:24+00:00

Im a feminist and have been since the 1970s, but Im more an egalitarian than today's feminist, and I also support MRA. I do NOT adhere to the misandry and veiled female supremacy that has taken over modern feminism, so while I work for feminist issues and male issues that move toward equality, I label myself an egalitarian these days.

bunker_man · 2013-11-04T04:36:28+00:00

You can be whatever you want.

Not an astronaut though. Be reasonable.

Roddy0608 · 2013-11-04T01:40:42+00:00

Be a WRA instead of a feminist.

guywithaccount · 2013-11-04T02:51:46+00:00

The only way to be a feminist and an MRA is to adopt a feminism that isn't inherently misandrist - and pretty much any feminism that believes in patriarchy, which is pretty much all of them, is inherently misandrist.

Oh, and the reason why the MRM has to be against feminism? It's because feminism won't coexist with us. If feminism stopped blaming male oppression for everything and perpetuating female hypoagency, stopped telling lies and half truths about violence, rape and other sexual abuse, pay, education, and other issues while ignoring or erasing male victims and female perpetrators of these same problems, stopped spreading nasty rumors about us, stopped fighting against changes to laws that currently harm men, and called out misandry as eagerly as it calls out misogyny, maybe we could get along.

Roulette88888 · 2013-11-04T17:45:11+00:00

It always bothered me as a child that I had to be the one who pays for dates, that I had to be nice and courteous to women just because they're women, that I can't hurt a woman even to defend myself. These were the things that made me identify as a feminist.

I do not believe this is sufficient reason to identify as a feminist in the first place.

warspite88 · 2013-11-04T05:18:58+00:00

I think this op is a troll , just wait for the shaming and blaming to start...just sayin

2013-11-04T00:44:39+00:00

Feminism is a political movement. Not all liberals are democratic.

Yes you can be a feminist and a men's rights advocate, just like you can be a democrat on some subjects and a republican on others.

DougDante · 2013-11-04T03:22:49+00:00

Can I be a Feminist and an MRA?

Not if you need everyone's approval, because you won't get it.

So, can you?

Heavy_In_Your_Arms · 2013-11-04T01:24:56+00:00

I think you bring up a good point here. I feel like the MRA's are right in fighting against misandry and other, larger, issues, However, I feel like they're going about it wrong. Feminism should not be torn down in an effort to build up Men's Rights.

At the risk of being downvoted, I'll provide an example:

When I see the breast cancer campaign, I see a lot of women rallying for a cause. That's great. A lot of companies (like Secret deoderant) have begun selling items with the pink ribbon to support the cause, saying that a percentage of the money the company earns from their pink products will go towards breast cancer research.

When I look at the Prostate Cancer campaign, which is equally important, I can't help but read comments like "why is everyone focusing on breast cancer?" and "Prostate cancer is just as important. This is sexist!" These comments strike me as counter-productive.

I feel like cancer campaigns should focus on positive things, not negative ones. Cancer is cancer, no matter what gender it affects and where it is. Furthermore, I am less inclined to donate to a campaign that tears down another.

I am a girl and I identify as both a feminist and an MRA. I am a feminist because I have been raped and received no help (which I believe needs to change). I am an MRA because my father is BY FAR the better parent, yet he could not get custody over me (I ended up going to live with him after my mother died though, which was great).

I am a feminist because I don't think that being a girl is a bad thing, and so I wish words like "pussy" weren't used to put people down (especially men who have a right to a express a more vulnerable side of their personality). I am an MRA because my boyfriend was raped by a girl, has PTSD because of it, and no one believes him because "men can't be raped."

So I guess the long and short of it is that I wish the MRA's would focus on moving forward with their movement without tearing down other movements. This is not to say that feminists never tear down MRA's because I'm sure that some of them do...but I feel like this kind of behavior is a lot more prevalent in the MRA community.

theskepticalidealist · 2013-11-04T01:32:45+00:00

Ah yes, this thread again.

chocoboat · 2013-11-04T01:01:48+00:00

It all depends on your definition of the terms. Unfortunately, no one agrees on the definitions and this is a source of a lot of arguments and confusion.

In this subreddit, many people's definition of "feminist" only refers to the extremist anti-male feminists. You cannot be that type of feminist and an MRA, because your beliefs would contradict each other. You can't argue that unreasonable alimony is wrong, but also argue that the woman should get it because life is so hard for women.

If your definition of "feminist" is someone who is for equal rights and equal opportunities and equal responsibilities, then you absolutely can be an advocate for both sides.

The reason "feminism" is attacked so often and so harshly in here is because people here are only referring to the extremist type that promotes anti-male sexism. That stuff deserves to be attacked.

But yeah, it's confusing and turns some people away from MRAs because they think pro-equality advocates are being attacked.

chrisplyon · 2013-11-04T06:25:06+00:00

How about we all focus on people rights? The only inherent gender specific differences that have anything to do with anything are differences between testosterone and estrogen. Affects of inherent strength, existence of menstrual cycles, are all driven from the same source. Men aren't any more likely to have sexual desires. Women are just taught that all men will rape them and the only way to secure fidelity is marriage (clearly not true). What is wrong with this whole us vs them thing anyway?

SporkTornado · 2013-11-04T06:57:10+00:00

I think man hating radfems represent a slim minority and most feminists are actually pretty reasonable. Its just that man hating radfems are the ones who scream the loudest, troll the hardest and generally push the moderate feminists out of the spot light.

2013-11-04T18:06:00+00:00

Since you linked to the "Defective Girls" article thread and seem to be in a tizzy about everyone blaming feminists for it, let me cross-post this comment I made:

"Once upon a time, in the early 90s (I think), both sexes were struggling in elementary school. One day, feminist groups support research looking into girl students struggles. Next thing you know, a big stink is made about it and schools are pressured, thanks to these special interest groups, in tailoring learning to support girls only. Nevermind that boys were struggling as well.

Fast forward to present day. Girls are doing great, boys are STILL struggling while having their needs ignored. Whenever someone tries to talk about their needs, society (having been indoctrinated by the pleas of these feminist special interest groups) sweeps it under the rug. Even these feminist special interest groups attempt to rub off their problems as a "Race" issue while white boys are doing fine and dandy, thank you very much.

There's your answer. If these feminist groups cared about boys failing, they would've spoken out and said "Hey, this research only looks at girls failing. Boys are failing too. It's pretty sexist to leave them out". But nope, nary a peep.

What's their excuse?"

Now, before you go off and assume I'm blaming every single feminist for what happened let me assure you that I believe this sort of mentality wasn't started by them. There are other sources for it. But you cannot deny that those feminist special interest groups went full-speed ahead and convinced the education system to set up programs and support for struggling girls only when the fact was BOTH genders were doing poorly.

Answer me this: Do you believe what these feminist special interest groups did was wrong or not? No, don't sneak in the "They're not feminists" or "They're a minority" dodge. Just answer it.

Because, in my opinion, if feminism was about equality for both genders, then these special interest groups would've been opposed by the reasonable ones decades ago. But there is still a lack of acknowledgement that feminism did it wrong from feminists themselves.
Worse, if anyone dares to research boys struggles in school or even advocate, society resists and classifies it as a "Race" issue (including feminist groups.) Some even go so far as to say it will take attention away from the girls.

Summary: Both genders were struggling. Feminist special interest groups lobby for programs to support girls only and get their wish. Boys are left in the lurch and any attempt to help them is met with resistence from society.

2013-11-05T07:41:46+00:00

You can't be a feminist and an MRA. Feminism believes in the patriarchy, and the MRM rejects that notion.

DavidByron · 2013-11-04T04:03:45+00:00

If you're a feminist then you're anti-men's rights. That's the common element of feminism, the hatred of men, the fight to hurt men. Feminism has nothing to do with women's rights any more than the KKK is about rights for white people.

Women have so many problems

Like what? I've almost never met a feminist who could answer that without lying about men which is of course what feminists love to do with their conspiracy theories about how men are all rapists or that men rule over and oppress all women ("the patriarchy") or that crap about women being paid less for the same work - which they know is a lie.

If you support feminism you are anti-men's rights.

Feminism is a wide, wide range of beliefs philosophies

It isn't. Feminism is always about hating men and blaming them for everything. It's always about portraying men as rapists and fiends.

Lets be honest, women have problems that men don't

Like what?

I've never had anyone question or undermine my intelligence in a professional or academic setting because of my sex

Actually you already said that has happened to you but it almost never happens to women. you just said, "I get called a fag because I love art and poetry".

You are parroting feminist hate slogans even though your own personal life contradicts them, the same as almost anyone's real life contradicts them. In the same way you go on about women's "special problems" but probably cannot name any.

Misogyny is real, I've seen it

Like what?

Funcuz · 2013-11-04T03:01:49+00:00

I'm a feminist ONLY in the sense that I think women in the developing and Third World often get a raw deal.

When we're talking about Western women in the developed , industrialized world , I am an ANTI-FEMINIST.

I mean , you've got places where a woman gets raped and then she gets a death sentence for having been raped. That's wrong in so many ways and on such an epic scale that I find it impossible to even comprehend the mental gymnastics necessary to find fault with her. I can't figure out how any individual with a working brain can possibly find anything about such an action even remotely morally righteous.

Now , on the other hand you've got feminists in the developed world complaining that too few women are CHOOSING a career in the sciences and that it's somehow my fault because I have a penis. Those feminists don't actually believe in equality or anything resembling it. They simply refuse to accept that women have the option to choose less work for more family time and an awful lot of them are going to choose family first. I would too if I actually had that option.

So , again , it basically depends on who we're talking about. A feminist in the developed world is my enemy. It's as simple as that as far as I'm concerned.

warspite88 · 2013-11-04T05:16:13+00:00

feminism has nothing to do with mens rights , sure feminists may start saying they care about mens rights but the proof feminism has nothing to do with mens rights is in the past 40 years of policy and actual doing rather than lip service.

now when those who claim to be feminist work to help mens rights, they either become a humanist or just a feminist apologist. you cant be a feminist and cling to some of its ideology while also saying you care about mens rights i guerentee a feminist will try to find ways to just shame men for some poorly worded post and say well well... the movement is not credible because some of them are angry posters.

just your last comment alone shows feminists who claim to care about mens rights are mainly just waiting to shame men...mens rights and all of its imperfections if it doesnt jive with your feminist dogma then it questions the credibility of the movement, right?

fact= feminism is a hate movement that has never been about equality or mens rights and it never will be. proof is in the past 40 years alone. fact= mens rights is just starting to grow and it is making many feminists think really hard, some feminists are trying to find ways to shame and blame mens rights for being imperfect and not painting feminists as helpers.

BrambleEdge · 2013-11-04T21:34:20+00:00

Short answer, no. You can't pertain to an ideology and movement espousing misandrous, sexist dogma and claim to want equal rights and protection for men.

biscuitgravy · 2013-11-04T02:46:10+00:00

You can't truly be both. MRM is science, and Feminism is dogma.

For the record, solving women's problems only solves women's problems, but also puts women in a better position to take advantage of the problems that weren't solved for men. It's like trickle down economics. For example, if women had equal incomes to men, that wouldn't necessarily translate into less pressure on men to earn. It likely would, as it is happening now, increase pressure inasmuch as now you have less to offer a potential partner.

It's a common misconception, and it's being applied with dire effects everywhere: DV reform for women has now made it possible for a woman to have a man arrested when SHE was assaulting him. Custody laws that focus on "her" body completely forget about "his" input, so much so that it's legal for a woman to never tell you if you have a child.

On top of that, women don't even have many serious problems compared to men's. Maybe you live in a misogynistic town, but I've never seen a woman who had something to honestly contribute get completely ignored in an academic setting. They're usually teachers.

Can you explain the misogyny you see? It may exist, and I just may not see it. Still i'd need specifics.

rightsbot · 2013-11-04T00:40:17+00:00

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Juneo · 2013-11-04T11:19:25+00:00

Misandry and misogyny are both real.

I want equality and will speak up for men's rights as well as women's rights if I spot injustice. The men's rights subreddit is a great source for articles regarding various gender related topics and if you're willing to acknowledge that some people's experiences have made them bitter and biased you will have a good time reading them.

theskepticalidealist · 2013-11-05T04:59:53+00:00

YES you can be a feminist and an MRA.

Examples? Warren Farrell, Christina Hoff Sommers.

What you CANNOT be is identify with anything mainstream feminist. The problem however is using the name feminist to begin with, its not really defensible . But if someone wants to identify as a feminist, sure they can be an MRA

As others have said though, womans rights and feminism does not have to equal each other. The whole problem with feminism is that it brings with it a ton of ideological baggage. That is why the MRM does not agree with the idea that feminism is a legitimate term to describe egalitarianism and equality. Immediately gendering something to refer to equality is already bad start.

You should think again about why you really think you need to keep that label.

EDIT: A link to another comment I wrote

My whole life I've felt I've been pushed to conform to standards of masculinity I can't live up to. It always bothered me as a child that I had to be the one who pays for dates, that I had to be nice and courteous to women just because they're women, that I can't hurt a woman even to defend myself. These were the things that made me identify as a feminist.

Btw....Its not feminists that want to change this. They claim to, but they don't. Oh you might want them to, as a man. If you pay close attention to how feminists deal with rape and sex and domestic violence you can see they treat women as much as the delicate damsels that need their hand held through life as traditionalists do. And they still see you as the male oppressor with dangerous sexuality women need to be protected from, again, just like traditionalists believe! And they will still expect you to take full responsibility not only for yourself and your decisions, but for women and their decisions, and to protect and provide for them. Again, just like traditionalists expect of men. I feel genuine sympathy for you when I read the above about you feeling "pushed to conform to standards of masculinity I can't live up to" and "that I can't hurt a woman even to defend myself." Im sorry to say feminism is only about entrenching that idea. Where do feminists say that its okay to hit women if they hit you? Women hit men a lot more than men hit women, did you know that? Awkward for feminists...

Im sorry you've believed a lie that feminism is equality, its very easy to demonstrate they are not, so long as they don't abandon the debate and don't ignore pivotal questions.

I've never had anyone question or undermine my intelligence in a professional or academic setting because of my sex.

And men are thought of as pedofiles, child molesters and rapists and abusers.
What is feminism doing to counter this stereotype? Not only are they not doing anything, they are the ones promoting that!

Women may have to prove themselves in a professional setting to get taken seriously more than men do, but feminism isnt helping when they have created laws that force employers hire women on the basis of their sex rather than their competency, or hand out free scholarships to women just because they are women.

Don't you think you'd have a good reason to be suspicious of a woman's competency or intelligence because of that? Or even resent the fact that you had to pay a lot of money for your education, and they got it free because they had a vagina? Or that you worked hard to get the position you had, but because of gender quotas they were bumped up the ladder and hired because they were female? And yet feminists still complain about women not getting taken seriously and point out discrimination even when there is none, such as claiming that there must be equal numbers of men and women or they claim its discrimination. Of course they also only care about the jobs for women where they can earn money and have political power. So if there isnt at least 50/50 men and women in political positions its discrimination, and yet most of the time only 1 or 2 women even bother running for these positions or not at all! Or they don't want to be engineers as much as men do, not because horrible grubby men want to rape them and touch them.

falsekoala · 2013-11-05T14:13:52+00:00

I like to simplify it as men's rights and women's rights typically strive to reach that middle ground where both sexes are equal in the ways that currently differentiate the sex. There may be conflicting viewpoints on the differentiating factors, but you can generally support both.

MockingDead · 2013-11-12T17:41:50+00:00

I believe you made our point for us here

I'm sorry I thought that you could read. I'll try to use some simple words that you can understand. "It’s a physiological fact that women have less upper body strength compared to men" The author is saying that women aren't as strong as men. That means that women are inferior to men in at least one way.

and then you say:

No, it shows exactly my point. Women sometimes get the message that they are inferior than men in some ways.

Biological Fact: As a fat man with a poorly developed cardiovascular system, Timmy can't run as fast as Johnny , a thin man who regularly runs marathons.

"I think Timmy sometimes gets the message that he is inferior."

Because he is inferior with respect to running.

mister_ghost · 2013-11-04T04:17:13+00:00

Yup. I do it. You need to define these words for yourself, though. I think of feminism and the MRM as sets of tools, not philosophies. When you start viewing either toolbox as one that can address every issue, you're going to run into problems.

For example, we are often told that the solution to our problems is feminism. What's interesting is that a some feminists will tell you this before hearing about the issue. They will tell you that men's issues are patriarchy backfiring, then find out what the issue is and figure out how the patriarchy is backfiring in this case.

Someone who interacts with the world like that is a dogmatist. They know the answer before they hear the question.

If you want to be both an MRA and a feminist, you can't think like that. You have to look at a problem and figure out which set of tools better equips you to understand and solve it. And you will draw the ire of both camps. But we can be bros

Pecanpig · 2013-11-05T02:18:48+00:00

stickyk · 2013-11-04T18:21:37+00:00

Yes, but not here. Here, feminism is an evil conspiracy and r/mensrights deny even the most basic things like patriarchy and rape culture.

Felisha232 · 2013-12-02T14:46:36+00:00

One thing, among others, that feminism did was simply manifest the problems of traditionalism & conservatism for men more clearly. It sort of removed the dirt to show the ugliness of such expectations of men. Yet you're right that MRAs (and mgtows, I notice, just pretty much most anti-fems) blame feminism for these issues. But it's really just revelations.

Basically, it's patriarchy -- both religious influence and machoism. It sounds like this: "To be female, or like one, is to be weak. Don't cry like a girl, suck it up like a man. Do you have balls or a pussy?"

Yet MRAs sometimes call guys who favor feminism or defend women as manginas. So they're basically adding gasoline to the fire, the fire of their problems, and that's this objective attitude towards women that's being around since...well, let's say cavemen days, prehistoric, the begining of time.

But it's more than that, it's this belief that feminism has/is trying to demasculinize men. Though I agree getting boys to sit to pee isn't something I agree with, I do agree that male violence towards women AND other men isn't because of feminism it's because it's always being this way. Yet MRAs, particularly the avfm varieties (paul elam, girlwriteswhat, etc) will have you believe feminism is responsible for such violence. Though those varieties aren't interested in helping males, just making money off the illusion that feminism is responsible for their problems. And it's this anti-fem attitude, which quickly becomes anti-women (misogynist), that you see around here and on youtube.

Title	Can I be a Feminist and an MRA?
Author	macnalley
Upvotes	22
Comments	178
Date	November 4, 2013 12:38 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1puc97/can_i_be_a_feminist_and_an_mra/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/can-i-be-a-feminist-and-an-mra.1159698 https://theredarchive.com/post/1159698

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