I'm new here and have a few fears

CosmicKeys · 2013-08-18T00:05:24+00:00

Much of feminism is seen as a problem by the MRM. You as a feminist will be welcome in the MRM as long as whatever feminist theory that conflicts with the MRM behind. If you go around saying "As a feminist..." you're going to be invoking the image of a litany of things MRAs disagree with it and it will be seen as an attempt at apologetics. Leave the label behind when you come here and you'll be fine.

I'd guess to many feminists, you wouldn't be one. Currently the adversarial "talking shit" is just a byproduct of what's going on, and some shit talking is legitimate. Ignore those people, if you're supporting men's issues you'll find support in the MRM.

typhonblue · 2013-08-18T01:17:51+00:00

To understand the anger towards feminists, please read this:

Feminists minimize male victims of domestic violence.

Feminist minimizes male victims of rape.

Feminist groups block or remove men's protections against rape by female sexual predators.

Feminists protest seminars discussing men's issues or posters bringing attention to men's issues.

Feminists also promote campaigns demonizing male sexuality.

Ding_batman · 2013-08-18T01:36:19+00:00

Welcome. One thing you will never have to worry about on /r/MensRights is being banned for not agreeing with the general consensus.

Edit: Removed repeated word.

Celda · 2013-08-18T00:20:06+00:00

I believe that women have real problems and that our society as a whole says 'fuck you, bitch' when people point it out.

Which problems are ignored by society?

So my question is: Is a feminist welcome among the ranks of the MRA movement?

Yes, if the person did not believe feminist lies (women are paid less for the same work, the vast majority of rape and domestic violence victims are female), or invalid/stupid feminist opinions (women choose to quit working and raise kids due to discrimination and societal pressures, which means the wage gap is due to discrimination).

YetAnotherCommenter · 2013-08-18T02:57:14+00:00

I'm a woman who stands behind men's rights 100%. I've recently started looking into the MRA movement, and agree with all of the core points.

You're awesome! Welcome.

However, I'm also a feminist.

Just to be clear, on this subreddit "feminist" tends to be used to refer to what is called Radical Second Wave and Third Wave feminism. There are other kinds of feminism, but unfortunately the "official" feminist movement is controlled by the Radical Second Wave and Third Wave feminists.

I believe that women have real problems and that our society as a whole says 'fuck you, bitch' when people point it out.

I think most people on this sub, myself included, agree. However, gender norms for women do get questioned regularly, even in mainstream society (although perhaps not to the extent we'd all like).

I'm not sure I can comfortably belong to either group, even if I do stand for men and women receiving equal and fare treatment in every aspect. So my question is: Is a feminist welcome among the ranks of the MRA movement?

It sounds to me that your kind of feminism is simply the belief in equal treatment for men and women. This IS, by pol-sci/philosophy standards, a kind of feminism, so if you wish to embrace the label 'feminist' then you are entitled to do so.

And you'll be happy to know that most people here are absolutely on the same page with you.

A belief in equal treatment for men and women (dictionary-definition feminism) is in fact more compatible with the MRM than it is with the "official" feminist movement; most of us oppose official feminism because official feminism does not in fact advance the cause of equal treatment of men and women.

In short, it is because most of us are dictionary-definition-feminists that most of us are against the institutionalized feminist movement.

But, speaking for myself, you're absolutely welcome here. I don't care what you call yourself. I care about what positions you support.

DougDante · 2013-08-18T00:46:16+00:00

I'm not sure I can comfortably belong to either group, even if I do stand for men and women receiving equal and fare treatment in every aspect. So my question is: Is a feminist welcome among the ranks of the MRA movement?

Do your best to find the truth. Support what is right. Fight what is wrong. That's all anyone can ask.

giegerwasright · 2013-08-18T00:51:22+00:00

I believe that women have real problems

Certainly.

and that our society as a whole says 'fuck you, bitch' when people point it out.

That is a lie. It may be a lie that you honestly believe, but it is a lie nonetheless. There are far more social services, grant opportunities, educational opportunities, and professional opportunities available to women than there are men. That is the truth. Women get far more help for the issues that they face than men. I would even go as far as saying that women get help and acknowledgment while men get neither. Are there people who say "fuck you, bitch," ? Sure. But that is nowhere near the dominant trend. Meanwhile, we have recordings of feminists saying "shut the fuck up, fuckface!" and "fuck you, you fucking scum!" when men try to discuss the issues that they face.

Is a feminist welcomed? Well, that's more of a loaded question than you might think. Egalitarians are certainly welcomed. Non egalitarians are welcomed to participate in the discussion, but by their definitions of themselves, they won't be very helpful until they cast off their self involved and self serving identity politics and start supporting actual equality.

So. Please participate. Please discuss. I for one would love to see you supporting our cause. We need more people, especially women, to do so. You should, though, take a more critical look at your personal politics and those of the group that you profess allegiance to. When you find them rotten to the core, and you will if you have an iota of dignity, self respect, honor, and consistency, I suggest that you abandon that ship and let it sink with the vermin that cling to it.

guywithaccount · 2013-08-18T03:41:54+00:00

Women who advocate for men and men's rights or support the people who do are welcome here.

There's going to be a certain amount of shit talking. Some of it is pointing out the bad things women do, because it counters the myth that women aren't violent, aren't criminals, would never make false rape accusations, etc. Some of it is pointing out the outrageous things feminists say or do or feminist/misandrist bias in mainstream society, which goes to show why we have to address feminism as well as men's rights. Sometimes guys are just pissed and want to vent.

We're not nearly as cutthroat and defensive as most feminist spaces, though. People (even feminists) don't get censored or banned here, although the least agreeable comments usually get downvoted into obscurity.

Mitschu · 2013-08-18T08:36:59+00:00

[TL;DR warning]

I was going to lead off with a long rant about how all the programs that exist solely to cater to the exclusive wants and needs of women cannot be taken reasonably as society saying 'fuck you, bitch' to women as a collective, but eh. There's a post limit of 10000 characters, and I can't cover all the programs that exist just for women with that small of a window, even if I just use acronyms and abuse multi-posting - the task is too big. Now, the list of federal programs that exist just for men? I can post that list in its entirety just by not posting at all. Or even a list of all programs not sponsored by known MRAs. Heck, if I include all funded pro-men programs, I could post it on Twitter. With relevant hashtags. And a signature. And possibly also witty commentary. And most sadly of all, for once I'm not being hyperbolic.

Instead, I'll focus on the latter part of your introduction.

Firstly, you're tired of the shit talking. Well, so are we. We'd love to have a kumbaya with feminists and hash out all our gendered grievances. Seriously. If you know a collective of feminists representative of the movement willing to gather around the table and have a civil discussion, please, introduce us. We're not actively seeking them out any more because we've too oft discovered that an olive branch with a white flag on it makes an excellent target to sight the metaphorical mortars upon, but if they're willing to cross the no-man zone (how sexist!) and come into the bunker unarmed save for their wits, we'll leave the door open for them.

However, as long as there is a Gender War going on, we're not going to lay down our weapons just because the people on the sidelines think we should stop being so defensive. We didn't start this. We didn't wake up one morning thinking "You know what I'd like to do? Start a movement to scapegoat women for all of society's problems, and claim we're doing it because men have been historically oppressed by women anyway!"

If there is a war between the genders, MRAs are the defensive. Understand that, and you'll understand why we rally every time a fire alarm is pulled at one of our meetings, every time a new bigoted law is passed, every time a woman gets away with a hug for a crime that a man would be hung for, every time the zeitgeist starts to shift back to "women need men like a fish needs a bicycle."

You're standing on a battlefield saying "I don't support violence, but I support both sides for what they're fighting for. Why can't we all just get along?"

Just be careful up there on the moral high ground, those of us in the mud have got a battle to attend to.

To take a break from a rather dark metaphor, which beliefs of feminism do you agree with? That women make less than men for equal work - an often debunked claim that science, sociology, and statistics all disprove? That women are the real victims of war, since they lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons? Never mind that those husbands, those fathers, and those sons were all men... Or what about rape being a gendered issue that predominantly affects women - as long as you don't count 'forced-to-penetrate' as rape, since, as Mary Koss so elegantly expressed, "it is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman."

Or maybe I'm being too specific, and you merely agree with the fundamental tenets of feminism, one of which is that women are the perpetual victims of a patriarchal society that exists to benefit men at the exclusion and sometimes expense of women?

Well, I don't know, I can't pretend to understand which feminism you subscribe to, since there are so damned many of them. I'll ask you to clarify, although my gut tells me that you're a Webster's Definition type feminist, and screw all the rest, they're not real feminists.

Well, if I'm right, you'll forgive me for being confused, because that's exactly what all the rest are saying about your kind of feminism, and frankly, they outnumber you by a fairly large margin. Given the choice of who to belief in an argument about who is defining their group right, I've got to be democratic and go with the majority - you're not a real feminist. I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you.

Fortunately, there's another phrase, an older phrase, that you might find fits like a fine pair of comfortable gloves. In fact, better, since these are the real gloves, tempered by time, and you've only gotten to wear the cheap imitation knockoffs before.

It's Women's Rights Activist. Try it on, see if it fits. I think it will. And while we Men's Rights Activists mainly loath feminists... we also mostly adore Women's Rights Activists. Hell, plenty of us learned how to fight for our rights based off of their established precedent.

And best of all? There's no question in either community on whether you can be a Woman's Rights Activist and a Men's Rights Activist. Emphatically yes. You can wear the WRA gloves, and the matching MRA boots, and if you want, go all in with Egalitarianism and get the overcoat to go with it. (No metaphorical pants. Sorry. I suck at fashion.)

To wrap up with the third part of your question, I hope that the rattling of my sabre didn't run you off.

Yes, a feminist is welcome among the ranks of the MRA movement. Everyone is welcome here as long as they agree that men deserve equal rights, even if we grumble and disagree and infight and flip a few tables. Set your beacon by that fact - men deserve equal rights - and you won't get shaken off or kicked out of the clubhouse. But can you truly fight for men's rights while also lending your allegiance to those fighting against them? Not that I'm saying equality is a zero sum game - merely that feminism has set a long standing precedent of actively fighting against men's rights, and that the game they're playing is zero sum as a result.

So the better question is not whether a feminist is welcome in the ranks of the MRM, but whether you are really a feminist trying to join the ranks of the MRM.

There's only so far you can tug at that adopted leash before it either breaks, or you can go no further. With a better label that lacks ambiguity available to you, and all of our wells of accumulated knowledge offered to explain our historical antagonism with that movement, do you want to slip the chain?

To be a truly cliche example of an MRA, let me make a Matrix offer. Do you want to take your red pill?

... Okay, actually, let's be honest here, I hated that movie. And those were just gelatin capsules filled with red food coloring. There is no magic pill that makes everything suddenly clear, and the only ingestables that cause you to visit a new world are on the federal contraband list for a good reason. Calling it "red pilling" makes it sound like a once-off take it or leave it decision with an instant reward payoff.

More like taking daily vitamins that taste horrible, give you fetid breath that causes everyone to stare at you and avoid you, and leave you with an inflamed tongue. But is part of a healthy regimen that can help you get over inequality sickness.

At least the vitamins come in a cooling liquid form, and you can set your own dosage as low or high as you like without risking withdrawal or overdose. Alas, though, there is one problem... there is no spoon.

^Sorry ^about ^that.

Well, ramble mode off. Summary mode is a go.

Welcome to the movement, hope you stick around, especially since the only requirement to sticking around is that you believe in male rights (equivalent to everyone else inside and outside the gender binary.)

The "Former Feminist" bin (also known as the trashcan) is located right by the door. Ignore the spillage, one of these days we need to take that thing to the curb. Take your time coming around to tossing that label, but don't act confused when you get dirty looks from the rest of us for continuing to wear it. It's a lot like writing "Adolph Hitler" on your "Hi, my name is:" tag... while at a bar mitzvah.

Yes, obligatory Godwin's Law.

If you have time, explain to me which issues women collectively get told 'fuck you, bitch' on. I'm sure if you cast that net, you'll pull it back dry, but I do like being surprised from time to time. Keeps me on my toes. I don't believe that there are any issues that women face that received a majority reaction of spite, and I do believe that for every issue that you can find a single person saying the equivalent of 'stfu', I can find you two on the other side saying 'no u.' What I'm saying is that women's issues are very well represented in today's day and age, especially when compared to men's issues (and now there's a possible Oppression Olympics, I've run the whole gamut of stereotypes), and that there does not exist any possibility of society on the whole saying 'fuck you' to women.

But again, I like being proven wrong, especially on things I feel strongly about. If there are examples of such massive discrimination against women (and for the time being, let's please limit that to first world countries - yes, issues aren't limited to us blessed with internet, but if we're going to talk about, say, anti-female acid attacks in Africa, we also need to talk about male rape (bush wives), murder, ritual mutilation, torture, and acid attacks in Africa too, and that will devolve into Oppression Olympics because everyone has it comparatively shitty through that lens, both female and male, and trying to highlight one example by nature excludes all others - the very definition of OO) I want to know so I can, among other things, be one of those joining the fight against it.

I'm coming up upon the 10000 limit anyway. Damn it.

TL;DR summary for the TL;DR summary: Welcome, she who might or might not be a feminist but is 100% behind men's rights.

Don't worry, we're not all this verbose.

Welcome.

KRosen333 · 2013-08-18T06:41:51+00:00

You don't have to be a feminist to be a womens rights advocate.

Most of us here are very pro womens rights.

Remember there is more to feminism than womens rights.

:)

I'm sorry I usually write more but I'm not feeling very well tonight. If you have any issues, please contact the mods (remember we have an open moderation policy for the most part)

(and no i am not a mod)

rightsbot · 2013-08-17T23:58:17+00:00

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alatus_corruptrix · 2013-08-18T06:31:56+00:00

I'm a woman who stands behind men's rights 100%. I've recently started looking into the MRA movement, and agree with all of the core points.

If you've said this, then

I'm also a feminist.

Is basically impossible, because as far as the overwhelming majority of the modern day feminist movement is concerned, almost every word out of our mouth is bullshit, and every legitimate problem we bring up is 'part of patriarchy' and 'will be solved by feminism'.

I contend that you are not a feminist, because that label no longer means what you think it means. You are a humanist.

As for how welcome a feminist is here? I've never seen anyone here banned for being a feminist - which is in stark contrast to the feminist boards, where MRA's, and anyone who sounds a bit like they might be one, are usually banned on sight.

Cthulusbaby · 2013-08-18T06:55:29+00:00

Why do you have to "belong" to either group? When you join an organization and identify yourself as a member, you become partially responsible for everything that organization does, including the actions of its extremists.

Both Feminism and MRM have their share of crazy people, why would you want to align yourself with that? It's ok to support the beliefs of a group without actively being a member.

2013-08-18T03:48:20+00:00

http://breakingtheglasses.blogspot.com/2013/01/for-record.html

Frankly_No · 2013-08-18T05:16:51+00:00

Check out Who Stole Feminism by Christina Hoff Sommers - she defines the terms Equity Feminist and Gender Feminist; you'll certainly be welcome in the MHRM as an equity feminist.

2013-08-18T08:31:09+00:00

there are a lot of people here who fit into a range of extremeties in ideology related to mr, so some of us will be perfectly fine with people like you and may even be the same, while others will hate you, and that's just the way it is. stand by your cause and avoid generalizing, the usual stuff.

angryman22 · 2013-08-18T16:48:01+00:00

don't be afriad, we are all for equality fairness here and if you are to then we have no issues.

DavidByron · 2013-08-20T21:00:24+00:00

However, I'm also a feminist

Feminism is a hate movement. You need to quit that shit. You might as well turn up saying you're in the KKK but you're against racism.

I believe that women have real problems

Like what? You listed (as anyone could) a bunch of issues facing men. Nobody can ever point to issues facing women. Literally I ask everyone that says that the same thing and nobody can answer me. I guess billionaires "have issues" too, but for some reason nobody can name an issue facing women.

fukuaneveryoneuknow · 2013-08-18T09:08:29+00:00

However, I'm also ~~a feminist~~ an oxymoron

And..pray tell, what problems and issues exactly do you face?

Because women's "issues" are so well cared for femicunts routinely make shit up to keep busy.

(not counting abortion since its such a divided issue, relatively still up in the air).

Pecanpig · 2013-08-18T16:23:38+00:00

I'm also a feminist

Fuck off then.

Title	I'm new here and have a few fears
Author	alatus_corruptrix
Upvotes	43
Comments	89
Date	August 17, 2013 11:56 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1kksxh/im_new_here_and_have_a_few_fears/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/im-new-here-and-have-a-few-fears.1166102 https://theredarchive.com/post/1166102

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