Is it worth it?

apocalyptic · 2010-11-18T09:48:01+00:00

I was an introvert, arguably I still am.

The whole PUA stuff to me isn't about faking extroversion or even becoming an extrovert. Look beyond the routines, the gimmicks and the canned lines and you will find that it is about being socially aware.

Understanding things like body language, leadership, charisma, and having strong beliefs & values (or "inner game" as it's called here) doesn't matter whether you're an introvert or an extrovert. From there you'll learn how to act in social situations in a congruent manner.

And as to whether it's worthwhile? The skills you learn should be applicable to your job, your social life, and your dating life. I didn't use it to just get laid, I used it to land an awesome job and also turn my life around. So yes I think it's worthwhile. (Note I didn't say it was easy.)

herpderpity · 2010-11-18T09:51:13+00:00

I do not watch sports but thoroughly enjoy dick jokes.

I would suggest talking to people that share the same interests as you. Maybe it is psychology, philosophy, you name it. I think you just need to find more intelligent girls to talk to.

"Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, and small minds talk about people." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

Stick to the babes with the great minds. I mean, stick it in the babes with great minds.

rubygeek · 2010-11-18T11:31:32+00:00

What is your goal?

If you want to just get laid, then pick up meditation (read "Mindfulness in Plain English"), go read "Power of Now" by Eckhardt Tolle (ignore the cheesy new age explanations, though it can be hard not to burst out laughing at large chunks of the book).

Focus on being "present" or "in the now". It takes effort, but it will help you break out of your over-analytical mind, at which point inane comments like "politics is just a thing" will not bother you then and there.

Learning to be "in the now" or "outside your head" or "present" (you'll see it described in many other ways too) is an important part of inner game for introverted and/or analytical/geeky people. A lot of people live their lives going around not really thinking much about stuff that's not happening then and there, and they're the ones that will tend to blabber on about any subject. People like me (and I suspect you too) tend to get far too logical and analytical and think about what would be a suitable subject, what to say, what will happen if I say something specific, what people will think, and so on.

Being "in the now" prevents that, and with practice it starts to break down barriers and make you more social while you are doing it. Being able to switch that on and off (switch between "social you" and "logical you") is very valuable.

If you do this successfully you will get better at appreciating people for who they are without worrying about whether or not they are smart enough or have the right interests. It may not make you more motivated to get to know them, but then again if you're just looking to get laid then that's the motivation.

On the other hand if your goal is to find a soulmate that shares your analytical/logical bent, then go other places instead of being surprised that average people don't share your interests and/or want to care about them while out. What interests are you looking for in a girl? If you want someone interested in politics or philosophy, find debates, clubs, events related to that and meet girls there. Still read "Mindfulness in Plain English", though (it's available for free online at Urbandharma.org or you can buy it from Amazon) and practice mindfulness/being present, because it's worthwhile in itself.

Box-Monkey · 2010-11-18T15:31:05+00:00

I'd have to say I can definitely relate to what you're saying. I'm an extrovert, supposedly the most introverted of the extroverts according to MBTI. You have to realize that the average IQ is 100, and that the most common 2 categories of personalities, according to the same type indicator, are:

Security Seeking Personalities: who are the rule followers and enforcers, seeking stability, do hard work, and like routine. These people make up 40-45% of the population.
Sensation Seeking Personalities: These people seek to enjoy life, are open minded, easy going, tolerant, unprejudiced, and persuasive. They like spontaneity, and the freedom to act impulsively. Though, they rarely miss an opportunity to indulge themselves with whatever/whomever they find pleasurable, exciting, or useful. They make up 35-40% of the pop.

The only two other categories are: Identity Seeking (8-10%) and Knowledge Seeking (5-7%). These two categories are likely the ones you'd be more interested in, specifically the Knowledge Seekers.

The reason I'm telling you this is that you need to realize that not everyone can think deeply, and, in fact, most people would rather not think. There's another category for people that is known as "need for cognition", and most people have a low need, whereas you appear to have a high need for it.

Basically, If you want to have friends and be good with people in general - which is definitely a worthwhile endeavor if you wish to be successful - then you might want to play the game a bit, but I'd urge you to continue this and test people's limitations to see which category they fall into and what they can handle. Test their reaction to deeper conversation topics and go from there.

Though, this is coming from me.. the person who has been told that people don't know what to say to me sometimes because they don't even understand what I just said.. Something I still need to work on, for sure.

As for with women, you need to engage them emotionally, which is a more superficial route, ironically (since people seem to think emotions as the deeper thing when comparing the dichotomy of emotions and intelligence). If you engage them too logically, they will disengage their attraction. Be aware.

radd9er · 2010-11-18T09:49:42+00:00

I completely understand what you're saying, great post. I feel like a live a dual-life sometimes. I like to study, read, draw, build computers, and the like. Things that I do by myself, but I find quite enjoyable. On the weekends and some evenings I party hard and meet as many new people as possible. The latter I do enjoy, but if I do it too often and neglect my "other side" (feel like Dr. Jekyll over here) it's draining and I feel my life loses a little value.

My current girlfriend knows me well (and whom I know longer 'actively' game in the traditional PUA sense) and has commented on this kind of dichotomy that exists in my life. When we met, she only knew the party me, and we have built a great relationship because she sees and values my other side.

I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, but I understand your position entirely.

bribbit · 2010-11-18T11:10:39+00:00

It's definitely worth checking out different social environments/groups and finding the one that works best for you. Just make sure you give each thing enough time to give it a fair chance.

If there aren't enough cool interesting people near you, maybe it's time to move to a city you'll have more fun in.

ZenApollo · 2010-11-18T11:09:06+00:00

People I enjoy conversing with about philosophy, politics, etc are few and far between. But for sure I'll probably never meet them if I'm not outgoing with mostly everyone. That's because its not normal to converse about lofty subjects until initial social graces have been exchanged and some amount of trust is built.

There is a better chance of meeting the kinds of people you like when you live in certain places, or associate yourself with certain groups. Even still you will find lots of inane conversation even in sophisticated or academic settings.

The bottom line, I've decided, is that the benefits of socializing with people is so much better than the alternative. Even if 99 out of 100 are boring half-wit drama queens. There's a reason that these personalities have evolved, and its because they all have something to offer to society. Engaging in the challenge of socializing with everyone (instead of ignoring those I don't care for) makes me a happier and more well-rounded person.

Lanko · 2010-11-20T01:07:50+00:00

Your meeting people in the wrong crowd. That is all. In a lot of ways I feel I think a lot like you. Fart jokes are a personal peeve, I'm condescending towards sports fans, and I crave a good debate over politics or religion.

As far as politics is concerned, for many people (especially hipsters) It IS just a thing. Are you actively involved somehow? Or is it just something you bitch about over your caramel latte?

Stop going to the same locations to meet people. Try new activities, meet new social groups. I just had an amazing conversation about religion on a date the other day. It was terrible seduction on my part as the conversation wasn't really allowing for kino, and I probably friend zoned myself with that girl, but given how many girls I've met who talk about their outfits and shoes, it was great to remind myself that there ARE girls out there that I can connect with intellectually too.

2010-11-18T10:32:02+00:00

I sure can relate. Also rather introverted. Unfortunately one has to start conversations 'low'. People generally like to have fun. You will find there are people to have deep discussions with but most people will find it a tad strange when you start off that way.

There's nothing wrong with change. But you gotta stay true to yourself. Don't make dickjokes if that's not you. Make sure that you can respect yourself.

You know there are plenty of people out there that can engage your mind. You just gotta find 'em. Strength in numbers. If you can't relate to someone, no big deal right?

Try to see the good in people, even if that particular good is not present in you.

Telekinesis · 2010-11-18T11:54:59+00:00

You have to search out intelligent and cultured people, they generally don;t fall in your lap. Find an activity or group that you think would hold those type of people and search them out, if you just go for the general public - most people aren't like that, and it's a crap shoot.

executex · 2010-11-18T12:39:12+00:00

Mystery loves the quote, "Even the wise man dwells in the fools paradise". This means, even if you are smarter or more sophisticated than everyone, it's still more fun to hang out with fun people.

So the question is, do you want interactions with hot women you can't connect with, or do you want connection?

If the answer is the former, then you will need to start talking about things that interest those women.

If the answer is the later, then you need not change at all.

rmbarnes · 2010-11-18T14:14:16+00:00

You have to go through the small talk to get to the deeper stuff. Deal with it.

come2gether · 2010-11-18T14:27:12+00:00

i think the comments about enjoying the moment are right. i mean, you should just listen to what feels right for you, and act accordingly. otherwise your faking it.

thehayworth · 2010-11-18T15:10:22+00:00

I'm sorry what is a dick joke? Could you give us an example?

intjpua · 2010-11-18T18:24:02+00:00

why do I feel dissatisfied and/or like this hasn't been worthwhile?

How are we supposed to know why you are dissatisfied!?

I can only speak from my own experience, and I'm definitely not dissatisfied. Game works on all girls, including the really smart ones. Your problem seems to be that you're expecting to like talking to everyone. I don't like talking to everyone, though I do try to talk to just about everyone I come in contact with, even if only for a few seconds, just to keep myself in a social mood whenever I'm outside...it helps when I spot a girl I really want to meet. The reason I'm excited about game is that it opens up the flood gates on who I can talk to (anyone), and what kinds of girls I can attract (a much larger percentage of them than before; and the percentage keeps going up the more practice I get).

I'm currently sort of seeing three girls: A writer/artist, a post-grad student in an interesting field, and a girl who works with the disabled and verbally jousts like a champ (I like to tease, and when a girl can tease me back, I love it). I would have met a couple of them, regardless of game, as they live in my neighborhood and it's a very social neighborhood, but I wouldn't have known how to attract them, or see the signs when they were attracted...and I wouldn't have imagined I could have a relationship with both of them without being secretive about it. Game enables a lot of possibilities that seemed completely otherworldly to me...like the exclusive world of billionaires and movie stars.

So, has it been worthwhile? Yeah. I went from long dry spells, some as long as a year, to having the ability to build a sexual relationship in a few days, and the ability to attract women who know I'm not going to be a long-term relationship, nor be monogamous. I move around a lot (I've reached a point in my life where I can do anything I want with it, and travel is what I wanted to do with it, so I move from city to city on a regular basis...every two or three months), so this kind of skill is vital if I want to get laid on anything resembling a reasonable schedule.

Here's some tips from the perspective of maximizing your odds of meeting girls you actually like spending time with:

Cool cities attract talent and intelligence. If you don't live in a cool city, move to one. Your odds of meeting awesome people in a small boring town are practically nil. I spend a lot of time in both, because I travel so much. I assure you there's more fun to be had in decent sized cities, or cities famous for something awesome that interesting people are involved in (music, art, theatre, grad schools, tech companies, etc.). Examples include San Francisco, New York, Boston, and Chicago. If you don't like big cities, there are non-huge cities that have awesome people at a high rate: Boulder, Flagstaff, and Austin. There are tons of others. These are just places I know fit the description.
Hang out at places that match your preferences. Bars may not be the right place, though in a big enough or cool enough city, you'll find bars that attract all sorts of crowds. My current town has hipster bars that are full of grad students, musicians, artists, and nerds. There's a whole strip of four or five of those bars where my friends and I can spend the evening hopping from bar to bar, and nearly every person I meet is interesting, by my definition of interesting. If bars don't do it for you at all, try coffee shops, Whole Foods, museums, art events, events at a nearby university focused on topics you find interesting, whatever. When you find out the person isn't interesting, you next them and move on to the next person. You're allowed to eject at any point; just say, "Hey, it's been great meeting you, I've gotta run. See you around."
Figure out what you want out of life. If it's reading books and never having girls in your life, then this isn't the right path for you. It'll never be worth it. Why would you bother? But, if you're actually looking to have one or more women in your life, you need these skills to find and attract the best quality women. It's not an optional thing, unless you're a natural. You can luck into a relationship now and then, but keeping her attracted (sexually and emotionally) requires ongoing game.

One final note: It stops being work, eventually. The approach anxiety may never go away (it hasn't for me, yet, anyway), but the rest of it becomes second nature. I'm just really comfortable with women these days, and it happened because of repeated exposure. Lots of blowouts, occasionally uncomfortable moments, occasionally boring interactions, etc. But now, I just naturally do the right thing to trigger attraction, when I want attraction, most of the time.

2010-11-18T11:56:29+00:00

Move to a more interesting city and make some new friends.

Zamarok · 2010-11-18T14:39:14+00:00

You can change who you are, to meet your goals.. but at what cost? Will you like who you are after?

I'm an introvert, and I hate those kinds of discussions.. meaningless. Small talk is waste of my time and brain power. But I know how to fake it, to build rapport with those extroverted types who seem to need that interaction.

sockthepuppetry · 2010-11-18T16:10:26+00:00

On the one hand, you have to push yourself out of your comfort zone to make sure you haven't settled into your patterns out of fear and ignorance, on the other hand, you can't sustain the constant energy drain it takes to be someone you aren't. You need to find a version of yourself that's both sufficiently you and well-adapted to social climate.

Might I suggest meditation and Shambhala Buddhism? The central theme is that who you are isn't anything to be ashamed of, that that intrinsic self is essentially good. Discovering this, I've found myself trying a lot less hard in situations and people where I can see interaction is feeling forced. But it also means I can fully enjoy the people and situations that flow well.

Good luck!

2010-11-18T16:32:41+00:00

I understand what you mean, and I'm in a similar position. I'm confident with myself, and I know I can attract girls if I try, but the majority of girls I meet are not worth the effort.

That being said, I see seduction as being more about improving yourself and learning to love yourself more than it is learning a game (although that's how a lot of people still see it). If you're comfortable with your social skills and who you are, then you're already in a great place, you just have to find people who are similar to you. Don't go to bars or clubs or any other place that you wouldn't go if you were just going to enjoy a night alone. Go to the places you love and talk to the people there. Yes, the majority of people have vastly different interests and ideals from yourself, but there are others out there similar to you, I guarantee it.

tommyschoolbruh · 2010-11-18T16:56:27+00:00

I really like that you wrote this and stuck it here. Good job. I can only talk about me and my experiences with seduction, take what you will out of it.

I am clinically depressed and have social anxiety. That is just the way I am. I had terrible problems dealing with other human beings throughout high school, mostly because I was so unhappy. I had friends, I had plenty of them. I think most of them came by way of being in niche groups though (skateboarding and punk rock).

I dropped out of high school, my attitude changed. I was happier, more confident and this was reflected onto my social life where I had my first real girlfriend, met tons of new friends, etc. Then I moved away to college and was back to square one.

While away at college I became seriously depressed and socially anxious again, but I discovered alcohol. The alcohol served as a crutch and helped me go out and be social. While going out and doing what everyone else was doing, I learned "the game." Not the mystery method, or whatever other school of thought, but I actually saw people interacting, saw who got the girls, who didn't, and I saw what I did when I got girls.

This is when I learned that I could turn it off and on. This is when it got dangerous.

Although I was becoming somewhat of a 'player' I was becoming much more of myself. What I mean is that I became very politically aware, very socially conscious, and very firm in who I saw myself as. This self image has lasted, although it still gets challenged.

Either way, I had my growing pains. I was an extreme version of what you were saying. If you weren't political, especially if you weren't my version of political, you were not my friend - period. The odd side affect of this was that it made me appear more confident to my peers, especially the women, and thus made me more attractive.

That was five years ago, fast forward to now. I'm in this subreddit because I ended a very serious LTR a little over a year ago. It destroyed me. So I got into what I call the 'academic' game (this subreddit) to just help me through it. And help me through it, it did.

I basically just zoomed through the developmental phases of my life that previously took me ten years to go through. Now I'm back where I was before the LTR - confident, not cocky, not pushy, just me being me. This is where I need to be and I'd be stupid to say the game did not help me out.

Where this relates to you is I'm the same. I don't like small talk, I suck at it. But I learned a long time ago that I can talk about what I'm passionate about and even if people don't get it or don't agree, as long as I don't posit myself as an enemy, it functions as small talk.

Basically I arranged the game around me and what I want to do. I'm still of the mindset (seems similar to yours) that if you can't talk about stuff I'm into then we just can't talk. That is confidence, not arrogance, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Not only this, but I discovered what I'm really looking for. That LTR that ruined me was wonderful, but she was a push over. When she finally fought back, I was totally unable to cope because of her never doing that before. It was a shit relationship. Now through that failure and through the couple of minor relationships I've had since then (on top of all the dumb dates) I know exactly what I want.

I wouldn't have put myself through that without the game. It sounds like you did the same thing, and that is perfectly awesome.

philosarapter · 2010-11-18T17:29:15+00:00

For me, it is a social experiment.

In all my studies, my research, my questioning and my answering, the one variable that remained out my grasp was [seemingly] violent turbulence that was social interaction. There is even a joke that goes along the lines of "The final frontier is not space, but the female mind." If for nothing else, I studied women for the sake of understanding them and the mating process of human beings [and by a derivative, the entire animals kingdom].

Thus socialization, on the surface, may seem extremely superficial. But once you realize that no one REALLY cares that the weather is nice out and realize that it is a person grasping for existential value by definition of another observer, then we are getting somewhere. I seduce women to study their minds, understand their core operating parameters and calculate how their current personality/persona complex was constructed by the entire lineage of events that can be called their life. Aside from satiating my desire for sexual release of course.

But I suppose you will find happiness in whatever personally makes you happy. For me, my happiness eminates from the whole picture we are finding puzzle pieces for, as well as my role in its completion, while you may be motivated by genuine human communication and an evolution of your own ideas. But truly the only way to prime your understanding is to consider alternative perspectives and their relative effect on the greater paradigm.

Plus, fucking bitches is fun.

VoodooD2 · 2010-11-18T17:58:17+00:00

I think most people doing PUA stuff want to bone chicks. Dumb young blond. Whathaveyou. So for some of them, its do what you have to do to fuck hot chicks. Then theres some people that realize, fuck I don't want to do that at all but I would like to be more confident and smooth. For instance I don't go to clubs to grind on chicks and buy crappy shots and pick up random hot girls that are too stupid to talk too (But still crazy hot).

For me I've just applied to princicples to being a more desirable more attractive person, but on the whole, crappy bars, weddings, dumb clubs are full of boring people that I have no desire to talk sports or dick jokes with so I don't go to these places. My advice is take what you learn from it, to places that aren't as typically Pickup specific, places like bookstores/music venues (with good bands, not crappy clubs with DJs spinning top 40, or fuck, even art galleries and things) whereever it is you like to go and girls also occasionally happen to be present.

2010-11-18T18:15:10+00:00

I want to move beyond the plane of talking at people, to talk to them, but sometimes I'm not sure if I can or it's possible.

Not really answering any of your actual questions, but as an extrovert (ENTJ, actually) I can relate with this, but other than that I think we have opposite problems..

In order to get the results that I want in my relationships with others, I generally find myself faking a lot. And it works, generally speaking. To illustrate, often times I really want to tell a woman she's beautiful within minutes of meeting her. Of course it may be nice and she may like this and I might like telling her, but all of us here know very well that this is not going to produce the desired result of bedding her / making her my gf / etc.

It's cool to be able to get what I want, but sometimes it seems like while I'm able to get my cake, I can't really eat it, so to speak. There have been many times where I get a girl by following the basic rules of attraction, and things are going great.. then I start to legitimately like her, and start planning her into my life long term. As soon as this happens, I end up pushing her away in a matter of days. Sometimes in one phone conversation (..such as the night before last, haha).

I never make a big deal over it.. I typically have another couple girls on the side gamed up and ready to start moving in on (today is no exception), but it does suck because I'm fucking awesome at getting girls I am attracted to into bed, but as soon as I actually decide I want her, I lose her. Pisses me off, makes me feel like a fraud sometimes I guess.

PUA stuff has helped me, though. I mean, I still have a tough time holding a girl I like, but at least I'm getting laid a lot while trying.

Samus_ · 2010-11-21T14:33:56+00:00

I can't comment as PUA because I'm not but those questions I've asked myself so here's some thoughts:

you say you're nonjudgmental but is it really true or it's just the way you show yourself? being nonjudgmental means acceptance you have to accept people as it is but it seems you're evaluating them classifying them and expecting them to be at a certain level; it's pretty common for an analytical mind to evaluate and classify but as long as there's expectations there'll be disappointments.

this doesn't mean you'll like everyone, you won't but you'll see beyond what you want to see ;) some people is more shallow than others (most are in fact) but it's ok, not everyone thinks and likes the things you do and that doesn't make them "bad" it's ok to be like that because it's ok to choose your own way in life, some people simply don't care because they don't want to and you have to accept that and see beyond...

beyond it's the nature of the person, both deep and shallow people can be good natured or ill natured and that's what really counts, that's what you should use to separate them whether you'll like to hang with them or not, by doing that you'll see people more clearly and it'll be easier to connect (at least, it is for me).

finally make sure your acceptance is true, you must not fake it or else it'll create a great discomfort inside you and mess up all your body signals.

2010-11-18T16:38:36+00:00

A girl actually said to me, "Politics is just a thing."

It isn't?

RalphLeMeow · 2010-11-18T09:55:31+00:00

you are barking up the wrong trees. figure out where your girl is hanging out and go there.

incelmanlate20s · 2010-11-18T15:28:16+00:00

"The cost of sanity.... is a certain level of alienation." - Terrence McKenna

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHsB3RviFN4

2010-11-18T18:07:08+00:00

I think you need to work on the sorts of people you approach. You seem to be talking about lowest common demoninator sorts of things. Pro sports are boring, even though 90% of bars are dedicated to them. That's because 90% of people are boring.

Go to hip cafes and look at their bulletin board for cool events that center around intellectual topics.

If you're still at a loss on where to find interesting people, I also recommend online dating.

FWIW, I'm 4 months into the best relationship of my life with a very well-read, totally fit libertarian socialist with a great sense of humor that smokes twice as much weed as I do. She found ME on okcupid.

Title	Is it worth it?
Author	brassboydaydreamin
Upvotes	46
Comments	54
Date	November 18, 2010 8:12 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/e7zyg/is_it_worth_it/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/is-it-worth-it.1313062 https://theredarchive.com/post/1313062

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