Non problematic men are still often loop in with toxic masculinity, just because they have a few personality traits women don't find attractive in men? This is why I struggle to take some people using the term seriously.

VeganSumo · 2024-08-07T16:28:49+00:00

The term toxic masculinity is not and never was about the so-called "toxic" behaviors of some men. It always was about demonizing men, otherwise it would have been given a gender-neutral name like "normative gender roles".

Notice how the term toxic feminity is seldom used and described in a way totally different from toxic masculinity (basically as internalized misoginy instead of as a group of behaviors and attitudes associated with feminity).

Garfish16 · 2024-08-07T16:12:17+00:00

It seems like you don't have a good understanding of the most defensible version of toxic masculinity. That best version is that toxic masculinity is a set of expectations of men that harm men and are bad for society.

Practically, the term has become a floating signifier. It generally points to a criticism of men or masculinity but it has no stable referent. Sometimes people use it in the way I just described and sometimes they use it in the way you're describing.

My point here is not to defend the concept of toxic masculinity or to attack you or your experiences. Rhetorically toxic masculinity is often used as a mot and baily. To contend with a mot and baily effectively you need to be able to recognize the mot and anticipate the baily.

NonbinaryYolo · 2024-08-07T16:02:29+00:00

I'm friggen Nonbinary, can cry, can express myself and my feelings, I don't even really gave a concept of "not man enough", because I generally don't genderize human traits. If I get in an argument with someone about the sexism present in feminism, it's not uncommon for them to start throwing out the toxic masculinity card.

Shit like this is whyyy I think the concept of toxic masculinity is so regressive. You don't take two such common casual words with such loaded subjective connotations, and start using them in a negative context. That's called stigmatization.

See_You_Space_Coyote · 2024-08-07T17:13:46+00:00

The thing about misogyny is that I (I'm a woman,) often, if not always find that men who are genuinely misogynistic are complete assholes in general, it's incredibly rare to find a man who genuinely, truly hates women but is all around a nice person to everyone else. So while misogyny is of course a real and horrible thing that has hurt countless people throughout the history of human civilization, most misogynistic behaviors from men can be chalked up to the men in question just being complete douchebags all around. Same goes for women who hate men-women who hate men are almost always just all around terrible people, it's rare that they hate men but treat everyone else with genuine kindness and decency. In short, bigots are rarely only assholes because of their bigotry alone, they're almost always just terrible people in general.

Langland88 · 2024-08-07T23:51:28+00:00

I agree that the term "toxic masculinity" has way too much baggage. It's one of those terms that can be changed on the fly or used however the people using that term feels in necessary. It can be a Feminist women or Feminist man using the term. Heck it could be a non feminist women or non feminist man throwing the term around. It seems like the term means something different to different groups or different sectors of society. There could be a Feminist definition, an internet definition, even an academic definition that resembles something like Feminist definition, or it could have any kind of definition including how journalists feel the term can be used.

I honestly feel the same way about the term "misogyny" as well. I feel like any time a women gets criticized for something, she calls that misogyny. Honestly, sometimes I think a lot of people, Feminist women especially, confuse misogyny for chauvinism or even just for plain criticism. This is often something I but heads with a lot of Feminist women or even with a lot of women in the leftist spaces as a man who considers himself left of center. They accuse me of being a misogynist or even an incel (despite the fact I have a girlfriend and could easily brag about doing all that stuff in the bedroom although I choose not too) more often because I do have some opinions about women. But those opinions are things that I developed from years of interactions with women and even with specific women who tend to have a lot of similar characteristics. Sure I acknowledge I can be wrong and I try to work on that but it's still my own experiences. If anything it's more of my own unconscious bias if anything.

But at the end of the day it seems to fall back on the same thing we talk about very often. Men are always held liable and accountable for all their actions and faults whereas a lot of women, not all of them of course but definitely the Feminist women, don't want any accountability at all for their bad actions or faults. Women somehow can never do anything wrong whereas men will always be demonized and viewed as the root of all the evil in the world.

beowulves · 2024-08-08T10:21:49+00:00

It's like incel it's just a word that gets thrown at anyone you don't like.

You won't hear one word of toxic femininity let alone how most of the consumerism is driven by women therefor the real toxic male privilege is them feeding the economy for someone else to spend the fruit of their labor.

SunJiggy · 2024-08-07T18:35:56+00:00

Yeah, avoiding "toxic masculinity" hypocritically imposes vague standards for how men are allowed to act, and serves as an unfair collective scapegoat toward any flaw a man has for any reason.

BattleFrontire · 2024-08-07T21:47:36+00:00

I have mixed feelings about toxic masculinity. To me, toxic masculinity relates to how being masculine and being a good person can be conflicting goals. In that regard, I think that stoicism could be seen as toxic masculinity in some ways. But in the case of stoicism, I feel like the blame should be more on people who intentionally or unintentionally push men to be stoic rather than men themselves. I think that men are often stoic as a defense mechanism from the world telling them that their feelings are gross, troublesome, etc. rather than just being stoic for the sake of being masculine. Even now, phrases such as "trauma dumping" and "emotional labor" are encouraging men to be stoic and not open up.

ManWithTwoShadows · 2024-08-07T20:32:27+00:00

I agree with you, but I think you repeat yourself too often.

But again what I'm starting to realize is that people are just labeling traits they don't like in men toxic masculinity

Again toxic masculinity is whatever they don't like in a man.

But no to some people (usually feminists) toxic masculinity is whatever man do that they don't like.

Again at this point toxic masculinity is just a trait or neutral behavior a particular woman doesn't like in a man.

Again for the most part terms like toxic masculinity, misogyny, and creepy are only being used to describe traits or mannerisms certain women dislike in men.

Toxic masculinity is whatever they don't find attractive in a man.

In one article, you've said the same thing, using different words, six times. I think once or twice would've been enough for people to understand you.

edit: spelling

lemons7472 · 2024-08-08T15:51:48+00:00

Even with the definition of “expectations that hurt men” from people who talk about toxic masculinity and use this definition, people still only talk about toxic masculinity soley in terms of talking about negetive traits that they think men are taught into men that specially negetivly affect women in some way, while telling men “this bad trait that we only associate with men, also hurts men” on top as a talking piece to convince men that the left cares about them.

They never actually talk about stuff that hurt men specificly, just stuff that they think harms women, then mask it as a way to pretend to care about men.

When they do talk about traits that harm men like say the expectation to be strong and die, people then manage to talk about how all that stuff is because of misogyny but don’t really actually focus much on those hurt men at all.

Then they turn around and talk about how it’s toxic for men to NOT be strong and constantly protecting women and everyone, or label speaking up about your issues as fragile.

Heck you can be labeled as toxic just for little stuff like playing some video game or watching sports. Toxic masculinity really is just whatever the hell you don’t like for a man to do or want a man to do to serve you.

No_Inside3131 · 2024-08-09T21:00:08+00:00

I have come to the conclusion that in the context of relationships "toxic masculinity" actually maps perfectly to Dismissive-avoidant attachment from Attachment Theory.

Attachment theory is a concept in psychology, it's real science. It stood the test of time, it's cross cultural (kind of applies to all mammals, really), it applies to both genders and it allows you to make actual predictions.

So you should probably look into that if people keep labeling you with "toxic masculinity", because dismissive avoidant attachment is a real you-problem that will impact your life.

Imo outside of relationships "toxic masculinity" just means someone thinks you're an ass.

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