Why does being nice get you taken advantage of, dominated, and disrespected?

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January 31, 2019
105 upvotes

Being nice does the exact opposite of what one would think it would do. In my thinking, being nice would have people being nice back to you. You know, do on to others as you would like done on to you. You get back what you put out there. Treat people nice and they will treat you. This is the convention wisdom that your parents, teachers, and TV/Movies portray. But my experience does not seem to support this. In fact, it appears to be the total opposite, the nicer you are the people the more vicious they become. The more cut-throat and advantageous behavior comes out. They maybe see a nice person as an easy target to boost their egos. Because the nice guy often won't fight back because he is an approval seeking people pleasers. They don't want to rock to boat or being in any sort of confrontation/fight. They just want to live in peace and harmony. But this mindset of being nice and expecting that back from others just doesn't work. People take advantage of it and use you as a platform to make themselves look good while making you feel like crap. I know I can't be the only one who has experience this. Why are things this way?


Post Information
Title Why does being nice get you taken advantage of, dominated, and disrespected?
Author resnine
Upvotes 105
Comments 91
Date 31 January 2019 02:40 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit askTRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/210632
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/asktrp/comments/alktmj/why_does_being_nice_get_you_taken_advantage_of/
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Comments

[–]2SirKolbath171 points172 points  (12 children) | Copy

Being nice is basically giving your time, attention, and resources for free.

Free and worthless are not synonymous, but close. So giving too much of yourself for free means you don’t value yourself. If you don’t, who will?

[–]BurnieSlander36 points37 points  (0 children) | Copy

Exactly. Free shit doesn’t have value. People are attracted to things that have value.

[–]OutsideTheCage35 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

Free and worthless are not synonymous, but close. So giving too much of yourself for free means you don’t value yourself. If you don’t, who will?

Exactly. Smart, high-value people demand reciprocity. If you are not demanding that, you are conveying weakness at best.

[–]hmsthinkingmeat8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy

I suppose it's why some people buy bottled water instead of getting it for free out of a tap.

Because it has a cost attached to it, it must somehow be better than the free version.

[–]mastercheifer2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Plus tap water can have stuff in it.

[–]empathdx3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Bottled water is often tap

[–]hmsthinkingmeat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

So can women

[–]totalwpierdol1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

What is your definition of nice?

I mean I consider myself a person who does treat people nice, but I'm far from giving away my time, attention, resources, effort and emotions for free.

[–]2SirKolbath0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

It’s probably different for each person. Last Saturday I asked an elderly woman if she was okay and ended up taking her home when her car wouldn’t start. Nothing in it for me. I chose to do it because she needed help and I was able to give it. Does that make me nice?

Today I’ve banned four people for arguing with Mods over politics in my subreddit. (We are not a debate sub, and when politics gets brought up we generally allow one or two non inflammatory posts and then clamp down.) The gentlest term I used was “You ignorant fucktard!” Does that make me not nice?

If you choose to give someone something like time, resources, or attention, that is a choice you make. No one else has the right to judge that. No one else has the right to shame you for it or for not doing it.

[–]totalwpierdol1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Exactly. In that elderly woman example you willingly made a choice to help her, even though you didn't have to. And you didn't expect anything in return.

What nice guys do is they act nice like this: "alright, I'll do it, because the society expects me to and I don't have balls to say no. I totally don't want to do this, I let others control my life"

Also what a typical nice guy does is "I don't feel like doing that girl a favour, but I expect her to reward me with sex/love/affection".

[–]Aesthetic_God__1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

SirKolbath got it right.

You can be nice but make sure someone deserves it first. Which must mean they are taking a step to gain your kindness in their favor.

Once you've drawn the first impression of being a badass and DGAF, people who are attracted to you will feel less inclined to take advantage of your kindness and request it in peace otherwise

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It's a good point.

Do it because YOU want to do it not because OTHERS want you to do it. If others want you to do something and you don't, but you do it anyways you are going against your own will and integrity. That not only makes you the NiceGuy but also pussy push-over doormat. Women don't respect that and more importantly you don't even respect yourself. It all comes down to your values and integrity.

Being nice is, in a way a form of self-enslavement. It's allowing others to control you. Doing things against your instincts. Not defending yourself. Not standing for anything, and falling for everything. Basically a guy who falls into everyone else's frame to please them and get their approval. Nothing related to what they thinks/believes, only serving others.

[–]AbsoluteBaitMan72 points73 points  (12 children) | Copy

There's a difference between being kind and no self esteem

[–]resnine[S] 15 points16 points  (10 children) | Copy

Can you elaborate on this

[–]reddit309 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy

He means don't be a pushover. You can be kind and respectful to other people. Being the "nice guy" isn't as much about being NICE its about being nice to compensate for your lack of substance/confidence/smv or whatever. For example a "nice guy" is someone who will put up with anything and do anything to get a girl to be/stay with him and let his girl treat him like shit. Whereas a guy who respects himself can be nice and respectful towards other people without just being a pushover and being too giving.

Think of it this way, would you rather be friends with someone who you like for their personality or with someone who bribed you with a service so that you would let them be your friend. "Niceness" is viewed as desperation.

[–]juggernaut87 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

This.

Being a decent and kind person is completely different from being a 'nice' person.

[–]mickey__0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

would you rather be friends with someone who you like for their personality or with someone who bribed you with a service so that you would let them be your friend.

I do this shit jesus, i’ve always felt warm around my heart from it

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Man, it really just comes down to being self-honest. Being anything else comprises your integrity. You'll never be happy trying to constantly please other people.

[–]muddynips12 points13 points  (2 children) | Copy

Charity can only be virtuous when

  1. There is no exchange
  2. The donor is in an advantaged position, and is willing to give.

Guys who don't respect themselves break rule 1 by being beta bux (offering their value for sexual services), and rule 2 by giving so much away they become impoverished (either financially or emotionally) or failing to prioritize themselves enough to realize they no longer enjoy being nice.

If you want to know how someone could treat you poorly after you treated them nicely, you're failing to realize that you expected an exchange for your effort. There is no equity in life. It's not "treat others the way you wish to be treated", it's "inform others how you expect to be treated".

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for that. You definitely teach others how to treat you..

[–]Orfeu_da_Conceicao0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If you want to know how someone could treat you poorly after you treated them nicely, you're failing to realize that you expected an exchange for your effort. There is no equity in life. It's not "treat others the way you wish to be treated", it's "inform others how you expect to be treated".

Deep lesson!

[–]BloodSurgery2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

I'm in high school right now, and been helping my bros willingly about upcoming tests in maths, physics, english, whatever I'm skilled in that they lack, and they do appreciate me more for it.

I don't expect something out of them, they know it, it helps me memorize things better, and they end up respecting you more because of it.

Compare it to someone who would go great lengths to get people's approval, spending all their time in other people, even thought they really have to do stuff, he wants to have sex if it's a women, and so on. One does it because he can and wants to help, the other because he wants respect, praise, sex, love, whatever.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks. That is the duality. One does it because he "wants" to help and does because it's his choice. The other has ulterior motives.. supplicates and suffers accordingly.

[–]empatheticapathetic2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Boundaries.

[–]cptbaboo8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

Very well worded.

Some of the most succesful dudes I know are also the kindest and selfless people I know. They are trustworthy, careing open and will help you through the deepest shit. To their bros as wells as their girls. (In a different way though)

However there is this super important factor of beeing 100% non needy and behaving this way because of genuine kindness.

They don't want anything back in return. They don't regret and they let nothing damage them if shit goes south. They don't want anyone to care back or be nice to them or such bullshit. They are kind simply because they want to, because they are able to and its right and they care about their pack.

And this approach is exactly the wrong mindset :

In my thinking, being nice would have people being nice back to you. You know, do on to others as you would like done on to you. You get back what you put out there. Treat people nice and they will treat you.

[–]KakarotSSJ437 points38 points  (1 child) | Copy

Things are this way because most people are shit and don't care about others. Could be a biological thing though I won't get into that. Basically this teaches you to have respect for yourself and you should stand up for yourself. Fuck being nice for no reason, I treat people how they treat me but that's just the way that I am.

[–]Wjourney16 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy

There are ways to be nice and not get taken advantage of. It's called standing your ground and not being afraid to let people know when they are making you uncomfortable/disrespecting you. Frame, essentially.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy

Well when your GENUINELY NICE... people will take advantage of it because they know they can get away with it.

I relapsed into drugs and I was rolling with drug dealers and dopefiends all day. Its been a while since I've done dope so I was slowly transition into the drug lifestyle. A lot of people who do dope are scumbags with no respect.

Being nice got me robbed but being a genuine real person gave me good karma. The dude that robbed me got his eye cracked with a pistol and I got my phone back a week later. After I got robbed I learned that people need to earn my trust. I can't just give it away.

This made me transition from a GENUINELY NICE PERSON into a ruthless prick and did they feel my wraith. I was a different animal I just had a lot of patience and thank God for that patience. I would hold in a lot and I would say some ruthless shit that got into people's emotions, some deep shit. The truth haha

I'm sober now for 3 months been working out everyday 10 - burpees to 200 a day I'm trying to do 500 daily.

[–]Endorsed ContributorFereallyRed20 points21 points  (0 children) | Copy

Doormats are nice.

[–]heres_johnnie6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

There’s a difference between being a genuine good person and being a “nice guy” and often these can be confused.

Being a nice guy is more of a mental frame versus actually doing “nice” things. Nice guys sacrifice their own needs / happiness in an attempt to satisfy others and inevitably end up coming last.

Good people only do good things when it’s viable for them to do so, without sacrificing their own happiness whilst considering their needs as priorities, essentially knowing when to say no.

Learn how to say no, and you’ll be respected.

[–]BurnieSlander23 points24 points  (1 child) | Copy

Because when you are just “nice” you are being fake. People who are nice all the time are boring as and fake as fuck. Real people have a dynamic range of emotions so when people go around acting like NPC’s in a Sims video game, real people see through it.

So when you are confused about why being nice doesn’t get you niceness in return, understand that it’s because what you are really putting out there is a fake bullshit facade of the person you really are, and so what you are getting back is bullshit too.

The world is a mirror so when you see shit, don’t blame the mirror. Clean the shit off your face.

[–]slicklol4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

That last one was pretty good

[–]KettleLogic4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy

You've been given a lot of great answer but with an anecdotal twist or because of x. I want to break it down for you outside of people interpersonal relationships outside of game.

In a negotiation who has more power? The one willing to walk away or the one who wants it? The one with the least investment has the negotiation power. Therefore the power in the dynamic.

This is true of everything. Being nice in an interpersonal relationship is conceding power. Women like men with power. Concede it to them they are biologically wired to view you as a peer. Friend. Than a partner.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

If I understand here. When there is a say.. a friendship when both parties have equal levels of balance, the scales are balance no one person have more power.. by being nice this is displaying myself as lower value and therefore tips the scales in the other parties position. Giving the other person a higher value/power. I amcompletely voluntarily positioning myself lower down the rank by being "nice".

In a male-female relationship I should always be positioning myself as being of higher-value and more powerful than her?

[–]KettleLogic0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Drop the lower value bit, as value is the some of multiple actions. For instance if you were widely known as being the guy who helps lots of people and you doing x or y for someone is widely known to not be a sign of interest you being overly helpful to a girl wouldn't drop your value because it's a part of your value. So lets focus purely on the word power.

By being extremely nice you are showing this person they mean more to you. This shows the other party your level of investment in the relationship. The person with the least investment in the relationship has the power over the relationship. The person most willing to end the relationship or reduce it to a lesser level is the one with power as the other person is naturally striving to maintain it at a higher level that the person with power needs.

You conceding power to them through too much interest gives them the power and control over the relationship and women like seeking not holding the power in the dynamic. Women like powerful men men of value you loose that ability to look like that in the early stages of the relationship the dynamic.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks. I've heard variations on this idea of "whoever is more willing to walk away or is less invested has the power". The thing is if I act disinterested in them how do I attract them in the first place? I can't imagine attracting girls with indifference and apathy for their presence. What draws them into in the first place? If I am acting bored, indifferent, apathetic around them and therefore showing I am less invested and more willing to leave, then what makes them want to stay and be around or attracted?

[–]GrapplingGraveRobber0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

To me, power can be a sickening thing. Focusing on fighting for power doesn't necessarily lead to happiness. I don't understand...what is the benefit of power (pretending for a moment that there are no selfish people)?

[–]saladon 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy

People have started to equate being NICE to being WEAK.

Having traveled the world, I say it truly depends on which country you're in, but in cultures where vulgar gangsters are the biggest cultural icons and heroes, even saying, "please" or "thank you" will have ordinary people instinctively think less of you.

In such places, I've had to reluctantly go, "This. Two of em. Make it quick," even when buying something at a shop. It gets em moving quickly and respectfully, fucking funny enough. Some people are just used to being treated like shit so anyone that doesn't feels like you're below them on the social hierarchy.

[–]HellSpeed1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Jesús fucking Christ, I'm in Colombia right now and dealing with some bullshit today for this exact reason.

[–]resnine[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, it's hard as fuck for me to tell people what to do like that.. "This. Two of em. Make it quick" I feel guilty as hell anytime I tell someone what to do.. it's this mixture of feelings like this which gets me shitted on. I have deep empathy for people, like a woman.. raised by a single mom might have something to do with it. Hard time gaining confidence, setting boundaries, raising my voice. I am in a culture which gansters are icons and heroes so that might play a part.

[–]2INNASKILLZ2K1811 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

Like someone else said, people see through it. Most of the time 'nice guys' don't have the balls to stand for what they want, be assertive and masculine.

Being nice is a big way to cover this up, and their hamster makes them believe that 'oh well, if I just be nice, people will meet my needs'.

Get real, get masculine, go for what you want directly. Have an IDGAF attitude. People, women especially respect it, because it's authentic.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

Ok I think I disagree with other people in this post when I say: doing nice things for others is a good thing. Notice how I said "doing nice" as opposed to "being nice". Without people being nice to each other, the bonds of society would break and we would return to the beforehand times of nomadic warring hunter-gatherers (which some TRPers may not mind hahaha). Doing nice things for each other is how society's are built. It triggers a reciprocatory response from most people except psychopaths (and women in emotional-sexual relationships-Briffault's law). When someone does something nice for us, we like that person better and get invested in them a little more. Doing nice and being a nice person is expected of people, around a standard of reasonable (check out AITA sub for example, to see this debate) without expecting anything in return. Helping people pick up their groceries and giving them directions or occasionally buying the next round for example. In male society, using resources to help each other out is an important way to bond.

"Being nice" on the other hand means for the most part you're a spineless, waver thin guy with no boundaries, no plans, no value for your time and is autistically keeping score and expecting things in return for doing the bare minimum of being a decent human being. Being nice people are usually not socio-sexually competent, as they view the world as 100% purely transactional for everything. Being nice as a defining quality trait also means you're usually not a nice person and that the world should give you a prize for being a human. Most damning of all, being nice people don't have anything else to offer. Their "nice-ness" is the only calling card they have, which they don't realise everyone else does. They don't have money or a body or connections or a good time to offer. They offer nice. Bland, old, everyday nice. I'll eat oatmeal, not because I want to, but because I have to, but I can't even top it up with honey or fruits now. Don't be nice. Be reasonable. Be human. Do nice, when you have the time, when it's not too much trouble and when you think it'll help a person out. Doing nice can also be bp sometimes, but that's how you get friends, lovers and people to like you, and you never know when that person can help you out down the road.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If not being nice what is the alternative to this behavior? Should I just be blank? or an asshole?

[–]slicklol-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

All I have to say is that this was pretty good. Boys, read this and let it sink in.

[–]CalvinRichland5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

You should be nice enough that everyone wants to be on your good side and visious enough that nobody wants to be on your bad side.

Some people think I am the nicest guy ever and others think I am the biggest asshole. Some know the truth which is, don't test me.

[–]Atheist_Utopia10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

But still: 'it is better to be feared than loved, if one cannot be both.'

-Niccolo Machiavelli

[–]Jedi_Buzz_Zerker1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Can you elaborate on what experiences you've had that led you to this mindset?

[–]SenorSwole1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

NMMNG

[–]rDiothe1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Being nice most likely gets you dominated because (I believe) human beings are competitive by nature.

If they see someone who is “nice” - which is really a synonym for “agreeable” if you look it up - then they believe that person will be agreeable to whatever. In other words MOST people will start to label you as a pushover.

First, you have to make sure you aren’t being a pushover, or simply being a guy with no self esteem, because a lot of people who think they are “nice” are really just afraid. There’s some popular books on this. One is “No more Mr. nice guy” by Robert Glover.

ANYWAY... this next part mainly applies to friends. Male friends.

IMO The key here, once you have made sure that you aren’t being a “nice guy” or a “pushover” is to notice these people in your life that disrespect you when you are nice.

Although I said most people may do this if you are too nice, there are a handful who may not and they SHOULD NOT be if they are your “friends”. Simply put DROP the dead weight.

If someone can’t deal with you being a respectful man then truthfully they have no business in your life. But you have to make sure you are a person who respects yourself first.

If you are not, or if you are a pushover, it’s likely that you invited people into your life who use you as a “crutch”. They see you as someone they can dump on either to your face or behind your back

Example: the guy who fucks his “friends” GF. This guy never respected you in the first place, which means you’re probably a pushover. And HE is probably a fucking loser somehow. It goes hand in hand.

Don’t accept bullies. Don’t be a bitch either.

[–]Kurush5591 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Niceness has to be predicated by respect and dominance. If youre respected and assertive, being nice is great. If youre the average passive agreeable guy, being nice gets you nothing

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

How does one become less agreeable, gain respect, become assertive and dominate?

[–]Kurush5590 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Reading the sidebar and recommended material instead of asking the same kind of question that comes up five times a day here

[–]macheagle1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

It depends on whether you are being nice because you lack options (and therefore you’re nice out of sheer incompetence), or you’re being nice while you are fully capable of being anything and others are aware of it. Imagine the difference between a beggar being nice to you, versus a king being nice to you.

The former is a strong indicator of DLV - demonstrating lower value. You’re preemptively telling others that you are of lower value than them and usually out of the lack of other options. A beggar does not have the option to act any other way but to be nice, and no one respects someone with no options because it may not be authentic to begin with.

A king being nice is a conscious choice out of a long list of things he can do to you. That’s a much better indicator of power and respect - through grace.

As for being less than nice or “rude”, it’s an indicator of DHV. Demonstrating higher value. Usually, only someone with sufficient confidence or backing can be rude as they can either really get away with it or think they can. That means they really are of higher value than you in life or they pretend they are. Whether or not they really are is up to you to gauge.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I get what you are saying. But cannot a beggar be a nice person? I've known a lot of beggars, it appears a lot of them are very nice people and the fact that they are so nice is one of the factors that made them homeless. Had they been more cut-throat in life they might have gotten further in life. Life rewards cut-throatiness and aggressiveness particularly in business. Met plenty of angry drunk beggars too. I'm not a beggar I just enjoy peace and harmony and don't like to rock the boat. My default is nice, being an asshole, jerk, mean is not my personality. If not being nice then what? Nothing? Should I not be asshole or nice? I've heard this advice before but what's the best position to take here?

[–]macheagle1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

And I think you missed my point - beggars ARE mostly nice people because they lack options. They NEED to be nice in order to get money. That’s why the phrase “Beggars cannot be choosers” exists. And no one would appreciate people who are nice only/just because they “need” to be. This is the basic dynamics of power that will affect others’ treatment of you subconsciously/psychologically.

Those who are nice by choice will be respected a lot more than those who are nice by force. Which one are YOU? That’s why you’ve got be able to NOT be nice when you need to be. So that you are able to do both (nice and not) by CHOICE and not by force or habit. People can subconsciously tell. When you are not nice, you don’t need to be rude either, you can be stoic, assertive, very rational, and hold your ground firmly in a situation, etc. These are all valuable skills to have and you can use them as additional tools in your social arsenal.

[–]macheagle0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I am in the cut throat corporate world so I know what you’re saying. I have still managed to maintain long lasting friendships with people from all social classes and cultures so perhaps I can offer some perspective.

In short, I am an asshole to those who I need to be assholes with, and I can be extremely nice to those that will resonate with that. You need to learn how to read people and situations well enough so that you can adapt your behavior to yield the most ideal outcome for you (and for others as well, if you do choose). Some people respond better to you and will give you more respect with your being more rude, so that’s what you need to give them if you want their business, for example. It depends on that person, the relationship, the industry, etc. But general psychology still applies - if you’re always groveling at someone’s feet, it will not do your any good in the long run. We are hard wired to respect those who at least act like they should be respected - and there’s a fine line between demanding respect from grace vs demanding respect via an explicit tantrum. Keep observing, keep practicing, keep socializing and you will soon learn to immediately be able to recognize these social dynamics.

In other words, don’t be so black and white! Be nice/not so nice when you need to be, depending on with who and the situation!

[–]3chazthundergut1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

There is nothing "noble" about being nice.

That's because most guys are "nice" not out of genuine goodwill but out of self preservation.

Like you pointed out in your own post, when you are nice you are expecting people to be nice in return. For most beta males, being "nice" is simply an attempt at manipulation. The kind that females are intrinsically masters at.

What people like is strength. Make yourself formidable. Be able to stand on your own two feet and provide for yourself. Be able to protect yourself and your people, and be willing to stand up for your values.

When you are strong, then you can actually be nice. Because when you do nice things, you do so from a position of power. A man who doesn't need anything from you is a trustworthy man. When he offers his hand of friendship, he does so from genuine good will. Not for social advantage, not for financial gain, not because he's trying to sneak into her panties. He is nice by choice, and that makes a huge difference in how people will react.

So prioritize strength. Nice comes later

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

being "nice" is simply an attempt at manipulation. The kind that females are intrinsically masters at.

Can you explain this some more. I think I do it unintentionally.

 

My second question is, how does one become strong? This might sound ridiculous, but I think it's quite difficult to become strong. It's an everyday battle for me, getting knocked down over and over again. People being able to intimidate me, out debate-me, just generally do better at life than me. I try not to let it get me down, but I keep struggling with building my inner and outer strength. Hell, been this way my whole life as far back as I can recall..

[–]3chazthundergut0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

One becomes strong through hard work.

Want to be physically stronger? Lift heavy things.

Want to feel less intimidated? Train brazilian jiu-jitsu and boxing.

Want to hold your own in a debate? Start devouring books. Biographies, histories, and anything that interests you.

Making lots of money helps too.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks. I just generally need to learn the calculus of defending myself.

[–]sixseven892 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

Being nice is a disadvantageous trait for evolution because ancient humans had to proactively ensure their own survival, i.e. it's human nature to be selfish. so people naturally tend to take advantage of people who are too nice

[–]staticrain22 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

It depends on the amount of kinselection behaviour in the social group which is determined by social capital of the community. The US is among the worst in social capital, every state in the EU is better. It is not per se disadvantageous, but in a toxic social circle like the US it is a necessity to not being exploited.

[–]slicklol1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

If so, how did the "gene for niceness" not get wiped and get so generalized? There has to be more than what you are arguing.

[–]sixseven890 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Same reason beta males are still around

[–]Andrew543210 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Find people with manners and etiquette

[–]Bedtimeshine0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You can be nice and still not get punked. Think Wayne from letterkenny. He one of the nicest guys on earth, takes the shirt off his Back when someone asks, treats women with old fashion chivalry. But no one ever takes advantage of him because he has what’s truly important. Confidence, low body fat, muscular physical, gets shit done, and ain’t scared of anything.

[–]SalporinRP0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Being nice does not necessarily equal being a pushover.

Some of the "nicest" people I've met have had the firmest boundaries and the least amount of tolerance for bullshit.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks. What are your rules for setting boundaries?

[–]Crackpixel0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

You can be nice 80% of the time but you also have to show the other 20% so they know who's in control. Doesn't apply for all relationships but it is a good rule of thumb.

Just being nice while having no other real value doesn't bring you far in life, but it looks like you already know that.

First rule is, if people can take advantage of you they will 100%!

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

First rule is, if people can take advantage of you they will 100%!

You think that is true of all people?

[–]maxofreddit0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

At the risk of jumping in behind the ball, I think you're confusing "being nice" with "having boundaries."

People who are nice, don't necessarily get taken advantage of, people without boundaries do. It IS true that usually conflict avoidant people tend to be also seen as "nice" since they are rarely the center of overeat conflict. "Nice" people tend to fall into the category of the typical people pleaser, meaning that they either literally don't know what they want in any given situation, or they put other's needs higher than their own. They can also have a pretty good dose of FOMO.

Example - Stereotypical Nice

"Hey man, we're going to the club, you down?" "Um, I had some other plans, but,, uh" "C'mon dude! It's gonna be great, we gotta have you there!" "...I... uh... okay... see you in a bit"

Stereoypical Asshole

"Hey man, we're headed to the club, you down?" "I have better shit to do than to club tonight, you should too." "Whatever, man... you sure?" "I'm NOT going to the club, it's a dumb idea."

Nice, with boundaries

"Hey man, we're going to the club, you down?" "Thanks for the invite man, it sound like a lot of fun, but I'm going to bow out this time." "What? You GOTTA come dude! It's gonna be lit!" "I'm sure it will be, you always seem to have a good time, but I'm gonna bow out." "Man for reals? I thought I could count on you?" "I'm sorry, if you feel that way, but I'm still bowing out." "Yeah, well, whatever, see you around."

That last one, if you don't have proper confidence, can leave a person feeling like - oh god, they're never going to call me again to go out.

This example is informed by both WISNIFG, and Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss (a GREAT book to give you tools for conflicts in life).

And realize that part of being "alpha" is that generally speaking, YOU HAVE BETTER SHIT TO DO. As in then reason you can't go out, is because you're working on your programming skills for your new promotion that you're crushing, or you have to head to the gym, or your almost done reading that sweet manifest on stoicism, and it's important that you finish it, or you really feel you need the down time to make sure you on point for a busy week ahead. You don't have to TELL people what it is you're doing, that's your life, but having important things that you doing to grow and improve your life makes it easier to enforce boundaries.

You can be nice and still be "alpha." I think some people tend to assume asshole = alpha, when very often asshole = asshole, scared/insecure guy with defense mechanisms. ;)

If you can be a nice guy with boundaries, then I feel like you're doing alpha jiu jitsu. ;)

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I definitely have a problem with setting boundaries. I usually think I come off as passive-aggressive. I often don't live within my own frame, I am usually going along with others plans and what they want to do instead of what I want to do. As well as follow along with the conversation topic that they choose. Or if I am talking and they derail it with their topic I just let it happen, don't defend. I don't feel independent, I usually feel this co-dependency or having to go along with someone else or follow with what they are doing in order to feel happy. If I don't I feel like they won't want to be around me because I lack value in other ways. It's truly my insecurities about my social skills that hinders me and sustaining an abundance mindset. I feel this need to please because I am lacking in social areas in my life. So it's challenging to act like I am a bad ass or something when I have this "lack/deficient" in areas of my life. I feel like the natural alphas are dudes with great social skills and then the rest just falls in place. Social skills is the real struggle.. hell, just finding things to say at any given time is a struggle.

[–]maxofreddit0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

As far as social stuff goes, try to see it as a game... how much can I get his other person to talk? What can I learn from them? That way the ficus is off you and onto them ;)

[–]BACONisKEWLEST0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This the classic transactional obligation vs desire. You’re treating your relationships with other people as a transaction. Others can smell this on you, and due to your lack of perceived value they hold you in contempt.

[–]akq00 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Build up boundries around. Dont give your attention/commitment/time for free.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

How do you build boundaries? I feel lost on this idea... and I don't know why that is exactly. I keep displaying low value.

[–]mrpthrowa0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

It's primal.

As animals we take things by force, we raid, we hunt, we attack, and so on.

We're not used to giving things up just because someone is nice to us. We get it taken away.

In fact, if someone is nice to us, we're primaly hardwired to think they are either weak or a target to be raided/ridiculed/hunted. Thus we despise them.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It displays I am lower value if I don't display myself as being "higher up", "confident", "strong", "powerful". I often don't display this in my persona, and I swear it's like open-season on me in so many social situations. Especially with older men, I just get completely shitted on perpetually.

[–]W_O_M_B_A_T0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

It's the M.O. of the Fucking New Guy. Might as well get a tattoo on your forehead that says "I don't know what I'm about and I don't have any social currency."

It's fine to be generous and magnanimous to people whom you know are a positive influence and bringing value to your life.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

How do I fix this? How do I do the opposite of supplication? It's basically is a tattoo on my head but I don't know how to get outside the boundaries of what I know here.

[–]paulkersey19990 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

several reasons; 1-when you are nice, nobody is afraid of you. fear is the most powerful emotion by far. if people are afraid of you, they don't fuck with you. if you are nice, there is no fear and they feel free to abuse you at will. 2-when you are nice, it comes off as needy and subservient. like you are trying to make up for some inadequacy. therefore people treat you as inferior. 3-people get spoiled. if you do someone a favor one time, the NEXT time they need a favor they ask you because you are nice and they can "rely" on you. naturally, this becomes a habit. the favors you do for them don't accumulate, like a bank account, they are quickly forgotten. ironically, if you refuse a favor (after having done many in the past) this person will become MORE angry/abusive to you than the person who NEVER does them a favor because they EXPECT more from you. and if you are talking about dealing with women, multiply these effects by 100.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

when you are nice, nobody is afraid of you. fear is the most powerful emotion by far. if people are afraid of you, they don't fuck with you. if you are nice, there is no fear and they feel free to abuse you at will.

That's the real red-pill right there.. as much as I hate that it's true. How would these rules change when you are amongst friends/people you trust? Do you still instill fear and trepidation in them.

Ultimately, how do you get people to fear you?

[–]paulkersey19990 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

well, I guess it depends on the circumstances. if you are trying to make your enemies fear you, you could act crazy/unpredictably/irrationally. spread rumors of your violent past "the last person who pissed him off was found with his balls cut off and shoved down his throat" you could claim to be part of "organized crime" or you could actually DO something crazy/violent/ruthless etc. now if you are trying to instill fear in a loved one, you might threaten to kill yourself or move to another country and never see them again. use your imagination. the possibilities are endless.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

"the last person who pissed him off was found with his balls cut off and shoved down his throat" Lol, no one would believe that.. but if I tone it down a bit I could see that working. Like how I broke someone's arms.. less hyperbole and more realistic.

[–]paulkersey19990 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

yes, it was just an example to illustrate my point. there are lots of things people are afraid of (public embarrassment, getting beat up, loss of love and acceptance, being excluded etc.). pick one and let it be known that's what will happen if you are displeased. it's your job to fill in the details.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Good point. Being able to publicly humiliate someone or embarrass them is powerful stuff.. it's fucking primal as fuck and we all fear that, hell, sometimes it's worse than getting physically beat up.

[–]GGrub80 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

People resort to fake "niceness" because the modern world doesn't offer many opportunities to show that you are a genuinely good person.

There's no need to risk your life save anyone from danger, no need to share limited (emphasis on "limited") food with someone who is starving, no need to watch each other's backs.

Basically in a world where genuine sacrifice is not required people automatically assume there is got to be something in for you behind "nice" gestures.

In the past, when our comforts didn't exist, these "nice guys" might have been seen as genuine heroes, while today they're seen as useless. This is why they're so angry inside.

[–]resnine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Got a lot of anger because of the way the world is. I am genuinely a nice person, but being around so many assholes has poisoned me. I see the way the real world works... people are just out for themselves. Being as selfish as possible (while making it seem like you aren't selfish) seems to be the most effective way to go about life.

[–]RexOverAll0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You won't believe I had this same thought this morning. Being nice is so fucked up

[–]Bone_Coat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You recieve back Who you are projecting to People, if you project self respect , self love boundaries and character you Will recieve the same back, you cannot give what you dont have.

If you are beeing nice to other People it means that they deserve this more than you do because they have more self respect , self love and boundaries and they feel happier with their life than you do with your own

[–]maljo24-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

I have never been taken advantage of, dominated nor disrespected for being nice. Its Karma dude.



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