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Question: Does Emotional Connection require High Dread? Also, she lost it.

by Umar_Neo | June 09, 2019 | askMRP

16 upvotes

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Originally I wrote this post to figure out the proper comfort to apply to my wife who was crying, experiencing anxiety, and choosing to sleep on the couch Establish Emotional Connection. That felt incredibly blue so I researched more and found Newb: No your wife doesn't comfort test you. I think the emotional connection is for those that have some alpha credibility, likely not me yet.  

Now, after she went apeshit, I'm writing this because I want to see if I handled this properly. 

STATS: 6'3" | 192#  15.5%  {180# would be 12%) | 7y w/ 3 kids | Dread 5 | SQ 210#x5 [just finished my deload back to 210 on monday], OHP 110#x5, ROW 180#x5 | RP 4 months | sex 2-3/week

READ:

The Game, No More Mr. Nice Guy (NMMNG), Mystery Method, The Married Man Sex Life Primer (MMSLP), When I say no I feel guilty (WISNIFG), The Rational Male (TRM) , The Mindful Attraction Plan (MAP), The Way of the Superior Man (TWSM), Book of Pook, Sex God Method (SGM), Day Bang, 16 Commandments of Poon, redpillhandbook,

READING:

The Unchained Man, Models, 48 Laws of Power

Recently my wife traveled overnight for work, she constantly texted miss yous. During which time I threw a cookout and did some house work. When she gets home the next night I hit the garage to workout, when I come in she is boohooing all over the dining room table. She was upset that the mower guy cut one of her flowers and I moved a bunch of her other herbs from the porch floor so no one would trip again. I took ownership for the cut flowers and offered to replace them, which she refused. She wanted me to promise to not do housework while she is away (recurring theme; her stuff gets relocated out of hazards way; not really worried about flowers), to which I said no. 2 hours of fogging (I truly understand that you feel that your stuff is thrown away and I think that sucks.), negative inquiry, negative statements, and broken record. (My new limit is 30 minutes, don't let that shit run on.) I laughed when she said I throw out all her stuff and she cried saying I was mocking her.  She sleeps on couch mad/crying.

Next day, her body pains aches nausea etc. She attributes anxiety from me neglecting the one thing that would protect her "Not doing housework while she is gone". I say I understand, I'm taking the kids to the museum, want to come? I'm ignored. Amongst this months ago we planned to get a hotel for this night. She backed out over childcare fears. So I tell her I'm going out anyway, I remind her that today and she angrily says," Good. I want to see the least of you as possible". Kids love the museum and the lunch restaurant. When I get home she is full cripple, I offer to help, "you don't deserve to help me". I talk to her for a while about "this house must be respected and you can not leave your crap all over the place." and I tell her she needs to start respecting her things in the house or accept that I'm going to move stuff. She suggests a third option, which is the first option, she needs to respect her stuff. She warms up after this. I like to dance, so I went dancing that night. I get home and she asks if I went dancing, "yea, but it was more of a class". Then she asks if I touched other women, I say " uh, yea while I was dancing". "I hope you enjoyed her and she enjoyed my husband. I feel cheated on blah blah blah If you wanted to stay single you shouldnt blah blah... I don't even give hugs...", I don't dance often, first time I was frank about it. First time she ever mentioned cheating in any capacity. I'm in the bathtub so I don't respond at all just STFU. Maybe a couple raised eyebrows. No fog, no inquiry just STFU. She moves back to the couch again.

She wakes me up at 4am. "We need to talk come downstairs now!" I'm like "naww I'm sleep we'll talk in the morning." She fusses almost wakes up kids so I go tell her to chill out. She says "SIT on the couch now!"  I cock my eyebrow and say no that's not happening. She cusses, fusses, drama drama. Her broken record is sit on the couch. Yada yada yada … I feel like you cheated on me... yada yada yada, I turn to go back upstairs. Louder more drama. Follows me up yelling, I tell her we can talk later when she is behaving. Yada yada yada, loud cussing, I get in bed. She starts storming off threatening idea, not actually saying, but threatening divorce. Then I hear her open kid 1 door. She took him out to the car. I'm up then! HELL NO. I go to get him out the car, she starts yanking and pulling on me. I back up, yada yada yada. I say "Take kid 1 in the house." Yada yada.. I realize I'm going to have to be willing to burn this whole thing down. So I walk in the house to make sure she doesn't grab kid 2. She follows yada yada yada. I realize kid 1 is in the car outside by himself, the youngest. So I go back to get him. She darts out throwing her body over him. So I just stand behind the car staring at the beautiful sunrise. SHE GETS IN CAR ACCIDENTS WITH HER ANGER, not with my kids! She takes him into the enclosed patio. I go upstairs and she grabs kid 2!! So I put kid 1 back in bed, and realize she is just going to have to take 2 kid and be reckless, no other ideas come to mind. So I protect kid 1 and 3. All are still sleep until kid 2 wakes up in her arms, "What's going on?". I say, " Mommy is sad, baby" She gives mommy kiss on the cheek and says don't be sad, then starts to lay back down. So kid 2 is on the porch. I'm blocking the door to kid 1 and 3, she carries on yada yada yada.. she says "If my dad was alive he'd kick your ass, maybe I should do that, maybe you will listen then." I bust out laughing. She said oh you think that's funny!" I say, "HAHA I'm sorry bae, your just so cute!". yada yada yada..sit on the couch.. eventually she starts swinging on me. So I just guard my face and take it. She starts yelling. So I grab her and throw her in our room on the bed. She pops up and starts kicking scratching, and all types of reckless mess. (I took picks of the scratches) She tires herself out and collapses knocking over a painting. Into my mind jumps the idea of her hurting herself and blaming me, I can't control that. I check to see if she is ok, she is, I go get some water for myself. I tell her I'll let her out the room, I'm not trying to keep you in there, she just can't take the kids. She calms down. More yada yada yada.. Guilt, manhood, dead dad etc. Yada yada yada. "We are broken, you are holding us hostage."I said you can go, but this is my childrens home. More yada yada..still sit on the couch. Here is an interesting part.. " we are just going to be broken until you decide to fix it, because that's just how you are." Don't know if that was a slip or what, but I smirked, thought that was a compliment. Aside from all the everything has to be husbands way, this almost felt nice. Anyway, she tired herself out, moved her clothes/jewelry/etc into her office and is limping around exhausted. She doesn't lift bro. 

What's next? Hell if I know. Could she nuke us? Maybe. Could she sneak out with the kids? Maybe. Could she really go apeshit and call the cops and make up a story? Maybe. But in reality how is that different than any other day? The risk is always there and we have to step into the risks and face our fear and be men.

 

I treated this as shit testing, because I saw shit. If I'm wrong tear me a new one. Let me learn from this mistake. If I'm right... THIS IS THE SHIT I GOTTA DEAL WITH?   Next moves are to just distance myself and let my distance be her reward.

edit: grammar and stuff


Post Information
Title Question: Does Emotional Connection require High Dread? Also, she lost it.
Author Umar_Neo
Upvotes 16
Comments 60
Date 09 June 2019 10:57 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/241348
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/byj3bg/question_does_emotional_connection_require_high/
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Comments

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (2 children) | Copy

I used to go out at night to bars and shit when things were bad with my wife and she needed comfort. I was advised against this because it can cause the little women folk to go bananas if you haven't fixed the Feelz and then bounce for the night to go dance or whatever. It's the wrong kind of dread that creates insanity at a higher level than normal. Depending where she is in her cycle, this could spell complete disaster which seems to be what happened to you. She had so much anxiety she wanted to talk at 4 am, that's when you should have known you fucked up.

Its not my wife, but if I got the 4am thing I would have treated it like my 6 year old waking me up from a nightmare and needed comfort. Snuggles and hugs would have probably worked. Continuing to escalate at this point when you don't have frame is just going Rambo.

MRP is like giving children power tools. They work great in the hands of a skilled and responsible man but are dangerous as fuck to those who THINK they know what they are doing.

I agree with the others, she has checked out and you are headed for divorce. Hitting is a massive red flag that she went completely nuts, and it's your fault. Everything is your fault but you still might be able to save yourself and your children. Go see a lawyer and be prepared for the worst.

Stop escalating. Stfu. She doesn't think it's fun or playful when you make fun of her, she can feel your anger and frustration. In order for AM to work you actually have to be amused and having fun. Faking it only works to a certain point. You can't fake being amused.

[–]hack3geRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

She doesn't think it's fun or playful when you make fun of her, she can feel your anger and frustration. In order for AM to work you actually have to be amused and having fun. Faking it only works to a certain point. You can't fake being amused.

Fucking truth right here - I was stuck in an anger phase for a long time and AM was not well received because it came across in a spiteful way and I deep down liked seeing her suffer so I would push all the right buttons. It becomes far more effective when you look at her like a little girl and you can really see just how amusing her tantrums and sulking is. Newbies should heed this warning and realize that AM isn't something that can be faked - its best to STFU and when you actually start to find it funny it will come naturally.

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Your first paragraph is right on. I fucked up. I also knew I couldn't deal with it if she is acting like this. She never before acted like this.

I like what you said about 4am snuggles and huggles. But my wife was a fucking grizzly she was so mad. I'll have to reflect on all the ways I escalated. The only thing on my mind at the time is ,"this caffeenie crash sucks, it's 4am, she can't drive anyone like this, and we can't talk if she's this mad". Any escalation was my dumb crazy self.

Your right it is my fault. Ironically, she is telling me she hopes it doesn't disrupt the happiness we had prior to this event.

Agreed, AM isn't necessary here. Honestly, most my tests are comfort. I don't really need to be focusing on shit tests any time soon. I have been looking for shit tests so hard, I think I found them where they weren't.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret14 points15 points  (3 children) | Copy

Reducing the complexity of human social dynamics to a consistent set of universal "whenever she does X then you do Y" rules isn't really possible. Deeper principles (OI, abundance, everyone is responsible for their own emotions, no covert contracts, self-sufficiency and self-respect, boundaries, hypergamy, etc.) more fully and self-consistently guide your actions and self-narratives, and eventually become embodied in your own authentic, congruent, masculine frame from which you "instinctually" respond properly and effectively to whatever your wife or anyone else throws your way.

But one ends up here in MRP because you lack an effective masculine frame, and your BP instincts have harmed your relationships. So at this early stage of your MRP transformation, you're consciously rejecting your natural intuitive response, and instead you're trying to blindly apply Rules you read here without yet understanding the broader principles and context underlying those rules... which means that you often apply them wrongly, inconsistently, or apply the wrong rule at the wrong time.

The "if X then Y" rules are like a foreign language phrasebook; it gives you some canned scripts for getting through the most common interactions when the other person stays on script, but may leave you completely at sea when they deviate, or when your exact situation isn't in the book. Memorizing the phrase book is not a substitute for learning a language, and can even hinder progress toward that larger goal. It's clear from your OP that you were blindly applying "RP rules" in the wrong context or inappropriately against your own intuition, and then when it obviously wasn't working, you would backpedal to BP behavior or another contextually inappropriate "RP rule", thereby compounding and escalating the mess, and completely confusing and freaking out your wife with your inconsistent behavior that often sent exactly the opposite message than you intended.

You posted because you sense that something went wrong, but you're looking for an answer about whether you blindly followed the rules correctly, and what rules you need for the mess you've now created. But that's not what you need. You need to understand the principles behind the rules so that you can recognize which rule applies, and modify them as needed for every situation.

Let's analyze the misapplications that created your current crisis. You blindly applied the rule "if your wife backs out of plans, go ahead and do it yourself anyway." What's the principle behind this rule? The principle is that "everyone is responsible for their own emotions and happiness;" the rule ensures that

  • you take care of your own happiness by doing activities you enjoy, with or without her;

  • your wife can't hold your happiness hostage to her emotions;

  • you don't sacrifice your happiness to take care of her feelings, because they're her own responsibility.

So not letting her derail your plans for your birthday, a concert you wanted to attend, Friday night with friends, or just TGIF conveys healthy principles, self-respect, and boundaries. But since you planned for a hotel room without kids, this was clearly intended as a romantic and sexual evening for you and your wife. (Let me guess that it was for your anniversary; the context matters.) As your anniversary is a special day worthy of celebration only because of your relationship with her, in this context going out alone, and in particular to dance with other women (which you otherwise rarely do), sends a clear message in PowerTalk of FMOFY (Fuck Me or Fuck You). Congratulations; you just not-very-covertly escalated to Dread Level 10. Since your wife's not autistic, she got the message loud and clear and is responding appropriately by demanding (again in PowerTalk) clarification of your intentions.

Nice move to Dread Level 10 if that's what you intended, but I very much doubt it was; I suspect that you're still functionally autistic with respect to applying MRP, and you blindly applied the rule "if your wife backs out of plans, go ahead and do it yourself anyway." Whether from butthurt or from blindly following the misguided advice of ignorant Rambo n00bs, you decided to create Dread by going dancing, without understanding the principle that active Dread is productive only when your SMV is high and you're already attractive. So you produced damaging beta dread instead.

Having escalated to DL 10, thereby initiating a Main Event, you have to follow through by articulating your vision and expectations for an acceptable marriage. By not understanding this principle (or even realizing that she believed you had launched a Main Event), you treated this as an ordinary shit test and STFU, which in this context sent the message "I am done. I will offer no conditions by which you can save our marriage." This caused her to panic and try to at least salvage the kids from the presumed ruins of your marriage. Which you misunderstood, thereby continuing this ongoing tragi-comedy of mutually misinterpreted covert communication.

Slow down, Rambo, until you better understand the principles behind MRP. Stick with DL 1 and 2, or at least only passive Dread (DL 1-5), until you have some frame and know what you're about.

[–]470_2_700_nm2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

God dammit that was a good break down. You vying for Jack10 status?

[–]Cloudy_Pirate1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

God dammit that was a good break down. You vying for Jack10 status?

Seriously. I guess this happens often enough that it runs in cycles, but yeah - it's basically a personalized version of this:

' It is impossible to follow Red Pill "word for word." If you tried to combine all the Red Pill content (the subreddits, the prerequisite books like NMMNG/MMSLP/etc, and the the popular blogs like Rollo/Dalrock/etc), you would find countless paradoxes, if not literal contradictions. This is why your behavior is so contradictory to all the rest of us.'

'What the fuck? Seriously, the reason why none of your behavior makes no sense to us is because it's like we're watching someone park their car, open the door, lock the car, close the door, smash the window of their now-locked car, grab the garage door opener in their car, open the garage, walk in the garage, and grab their spare car keys so they could lock their car again. So like I said: what the fuck? Why the fuck did you do all that pointless shit? If you could have had either a locked car or an unlocked car without all that hassle!'

link

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

u/man_in_the_world  I appreciate and respect your response. I am trying to apply the RP principals best I can and then make mistakes and adapt. It's refreshing to see you articulate my ambition to see if I applied the rules correctly and how to fix any faults I made. Navigating my growth, her emotions, thousands of pages of books, and posts to change one's life can cloud clarity; I have respect for those of us who even try. Whether I stay or I go, I have to learn and grow up. 

I didn't realize

When I applied the rule "if wife backs out, go and do it anyway" I really wanted to have fun and unwind. I reflected on others comments about spite, passive aggression, butt-hurt, but when I did some reflection I really just wanted to go have fun. What you said about Power Talk is where I failed the most here. I never thought that going to a dance class would state "I'm going to replace you with some random chicks since you don't care to hang out with me {FMOFY}". That is exactly what it stated, but not what I intended in the slightest.  In going my way to be happy, I'm overlooking things that can trigger her. It may be a misunderstanding of principals or context, though I think I was just struck in a moment of husband idiocy. I wasn't trying to be RP, like my IRL friends said, yeah that was just a dumb move that exploded. 

I like the link you shared. It was about a guy who cheated on his wife and was trying to understand his situation. Although, I just did some 1-2 steps in a class with two senior citizens men, and a semi-senior-citizen woman for 2 hours and then an hour of watching people actually dance; in her eyes this was full on cheating. I see a lot of similiarity in that post. 

So. I'm at DL 10. I intend to be at DL5 and not even go beyond 6. As of Wednesday we had our best marriage. I intend to slow down from the Rambo I am, no matter what happens. 

Aftermath

As I told her that morning, I would talk to her when she calmed down which I did. A lot of the "Divorce this crazy bitch" crowd will go nuts here, but all the red-berets seem to have an opinion of seeing this before and giving me actual awareness of my situation. So I'll give the quick rundown of after events. 

She talked to her mother for the first time about our marriage, her mother told her to get counseling. I talked to my IRL friends and my lawyer, they all said we have a good marriage and we should get counseling.  I setup an appointment consultation with a new lawyer.  She and I talked calmly. Although, I see areas I can improve what I did, I'm glad I did not talk to her while she was angry even though my  stubbornness not to talk bore her responses, it could have been crazy worse. 

Her head

When she went to her business trip she really missed me so she was wanting comfort. She came home to her joy (plants) relocated which is a  recurring theme for us. We resolved that and then she wanted some hubby time, but I had plans and I wanted to follow through. Had I gone to a movies or something like a more calibrated husband there wouldn't have been a problem. I love dance since college and have been trying to get her to dance forever, low priority but a known passion so I did that. Google Maps GPS was left on because I never have anything to hide. She looked up the place I was at and it had a flier for SENSUAL SALSA SATURDAYS with a couple embraced and vibrant colors. She missed me, she wanted comfort and here I am off have sex on the dance floor with other women. Queue hamster and Dread 10. After listening, understanding and hearing her out, I explained to her reality. That basically removed her fears. She said she doesn't want to stifle me from dancing because she knows I like it, but she would like to be the one I dance with. She said she understands and forgives me. Because she felt cheated on and was acting out of character I may have went overboard in the comfort and went real blue pill beta  with some feelings I had. I'll pay for that later, but in the moment it was just part of me emoting to and with her. Comfort comfort comfort..

Talk about her actions

Then we talk about the 'kidnapping' and 'abuse'. She started to rationalize that she didn't think I would let her come back if she left on her own. She was so hurt about the idea of me cheating she wanted to reclaim her power so that she could make me listen to her feelings, because she thought I didn't care; that's why she was yelling and cussing at me. She apologized. She said she didn't even realize she was putting the kids between us, she just wanted her feelings acknowledged. Then she began crying and apologizing for hitting me, she said she doesn't want to be that person and hopes I can forgive her. She started bargaining for my forgiveness. I just listened, here I wasn't ready to deal with how I felt about that. 

Honestly, I see how this is my fault. Not because I didn't hold frame, or didn't AA, or didn't comfort. I just didn’t have the base intuition to realize this was fucked up. To what u/man_in_the_world said context is everything.  Once the damage was done, there were steps I could have taken to de-escalate like let her take the kids{maybe}, walk out the house until she was calm {DEFINITELY}, idk, I'm still reflecting on that. Also, perhaps I could have just fucked her hard when she came back and was mad about the plants, but that also felt rambo. I make choices, I make mistakes and I learn. I learn here so maybe 1 other person reading this can benefit like I'm trying. 

GOING FORWARD

I still plan to have the conversation with the lawyer and I still am leaning towards divorce because I never want to be in a situation again where she is violent and I can be held liable. The only other time she was violent was when she was pregnant, by throwing a bowl at me and slapping my arms a couple times. In 7 years she never cussed or became violent, so we also have a pregnancy test for her to take, just in case that is a factor; unlikely but important to know. If she is violent once during pregnancy, ok forgiven, twice at all is no bueno, a third time would only be my fault for staying. I have to reconcile that with the fact that I produced this spontaneous fuck up, when things were the best they ever were 3 days before this event. 

Obviously I'm not trying to be the best plate spinner or anything and I know I make mistakes with RP and with marriage, but I'm here I'm trying. I'm not looking for any validation or 'atta boy' or anything like that. I'm just looking to bounce ideas off internet strangers to help me reflect on being the best me. Thank everyone for the awareness and the 'your fucked'. It all has it's place.

TL;DR

MITW is right. I talked with her when she was calm. I'm setting up divorce options. This was my fault for being autistic about the context of how she could read me going dancing. I'm still learning so I don't repeat with her or the next woman.

[–]itiswr1ttenRed Beret7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy

You took MRP and turned it into gasoline for your wife's crazy. She battered you and attempted a kidnapping and your response was basically AA.

You deserve each other. This is more fucked up than the dude who impregnated a teenage babysitter.

The idea that this is "just another day time to hold frame and be a man" is proof you have been Stockholm for so long MRP is just another coping method

[–]SkimTheDross1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

You took MRP and turned it into gasoline for your wife's crazy.

This right here.

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

This comment shook me. Thank you.

She went crazy, true, it was my fault. I should have left the house when she went irrate, waited for her to cool off; then no battery or kidnapping. First time she responded like this, that's what happens when you push a main event. Didn't mean to do that.

[–]itiswr1ttenRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Seems like you've owned it from your response to MITW. These tools are dangerous when turned into 100% dread and escalation, but you recognize the mistake which is step 1.

Let's see how you can turn this around

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

indeed

[–]arm_candy17 points18 points  (2 children) | Copy

Your wife tried to kidnap your children. Then she physically assaulted you.

Your next step shouldn’t be to “let my distance be her reward.” It should be to visit a divorce attorney, ideally several, and get papers drawn up. You need to be planning for how this ends, because right now the most plausible outcome is that you end up divorced on her terms and you get to be a weekend dad with supervised visitation. She’s crazy enough to try to take the kids and to physically assault you. She will absolutely start filing false police reports as soon as she thinks it will help her.

I would be starting divorce proceedings ASAP and document all this in whatever way your lawyer recommends. I would not leave the house in the process unless your kids are coming with you.

[–]470_2_700_nm2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Settle the fuck down and read man in the world’s response. It’s bang on.

[–]arm_candy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

man_in_the_world’s breakdown is great. He captured what a colossal series of escalating fuck-ups this situation was and how OP drove it to this point.

Nonetheless, attempted child abduction and physical assault are both hard lines for me. I’d be completely done after the attempt to take the kids in the middle of the night. I’d be proceeding with papers, requesting primary custody, and securing a court order that the children must remain in the state. But that’s easy for me to say since this isn’t my life.

[–]mrpthrowa7 points8 points  (7 children) | Copy

I often think about fucked up states like this... the woman is emotionally fucked up, the situation is so beyond repair, I think the only thing that remotely has a chance of fixing this is a total time off.. like go on a trip for 4 weeks minimum... or have her live with her parents for the same duration... reset... accept that things might drift apart permanently after that... but I have yet to see a situation like this resolved.

I read some more... dude that shit of taking kids outside and what not... this is divorce stuff. Shit is so unacceptable. Go seek a laywer. The way this is going... you'll probably end up in jail.

I bust out laughing.

What the fuck dude, you need to eject from this situation. Get Lawyer, start divorce. Disengage. You should be in full instinctive self protective mode right NOW. As it stands, based on this post alone she can easily get you in legal trouble. Your word vs hers, and we know how the system goes. PROTECT YOURSELF.

I treated this as shit testing, because I saw shit. If I'm wrong tear me a new one. Let me learn from this mistake. If I'm right... THIS IS THE SHIT I GOTTA DEAL WITH? Next moves are to just distance myself and let my distance be her reward.

  • Get the best lawyer you can find. Have a good session with them and layout the situation.
  • Don't engage with her any more. Don't sleep with her. Don't be in the same room as her. Go out early come back home late if you have to. Minimise contact. 0%. Document everything - and even that is not going to save you.
  • Plan and EXECUTE your exit.

You have such a misunderstanding of how things are, I guarantee that you will fuck this up more, or land your ass in jail without knowing it. Lawyer first.

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] -1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy

What is my misunderstanding?

[–]mrpthrowa10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy

She is kidnapping your kids, assaulting you, and you are somewhat on legally shaky ground engaging with the assault, and you think this is all ok and you can salvage the situation. You need to disengage and go the legal route. The fact that you don't recognise this is even more fucked up. Talk to a lawyer dude.

[–]RedPillCoach1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I agree this is the safe, prudent course, but he can still regain control of this situation. I am not sure he has the emotional awareness to pull it off but I have seen plenty of guys as bad or worse than this recover.

Think about it from HER perspective. She dominated a weak man the entire marriage. That was the sole source of security for her. Then suddenly Rambo appears and deflates her power. He does this without establishing trust or establishing that he is in fact a source of power (leadership) for her to comfortably lean on.

Instead he plays games, disengages, and enjoys her twisting in the wind as he employes dread game. He has power for the first time and don't forget, power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. The problem is when you use your power for malevolence instead of good, and she already doesn't trust you.....

I am not saying it is normal, or healthy, or good. I am saying it is what it is. It's not an unexpected or even rare reaction in the testosteranized females of today stuck with angry beta men. I am also saying that it is redeemable. Probably.

There is a >50% chance he can learn to use his power and provide the comfort and security his wife needs.

TLDR: You can recover from an early Rambo.

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks man. Not sure I want to be in the situation. But that was real.

After the other comments here, I see the emotional fortitude required to lead. Now to read 'subtle not give fuck', comfort and lead, and lawyer up.

[–]arm_candy6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

You seem to think things are still Business As Usual after an attempted kidnapping and assault.

I would actually consider filing a police report for the attempted kidnapping. Fun fact, though, you’ll probably end up in jail for assault if you do because you were dumb enough to physically drag her to your bedroom when she started yelling instead of just walking away.

Also, where was your kid when your wife was hitting you and then you were dragging her away? Your story just abandons kid #2 on the porch. You’ll undoubtedly be told to document this by your lawyer. You should write it out more clear than this. Not the stupid stuff that triggered it, but the detail on what actually happened.

[–]RedPillCoach1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I would actually consider filing a police report for the attempted kidnapping.

I would see a lawyer about doing this. Local customs are going to control whether he should do this. Some jurisdictions are so anti-male you would not want to invite the government into your lives. For example, if you mention that you laid hands on your wife to drag her away then I suggest you use LONG TERM PARKING before you enter the police station.

I also suggest you put together a FU account so that you can live if you are thrown out of your home and locked out of all the bank accounts your wife knows about...

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

understood

[–]helaughsinhidden11 points12 points  (7 children) | Copy

Want to see if I handled this properly

Uh.....no

It seems pretty clear to me that you were angry that she canceled on the hotel Room. You were hoping to get some good sex. She said no we're not going to do it. So everything you did over the course of the last couple days was being petty, manipulative, passive aggressive, and all meant to punish her because you didn't get your hotel Room.

In order for things to get as ugly as they did, you were escalating every step of the way. I don't doubt that she was right when she said that you were mocking her I don't doubt that you knew exactly how to push your buttons, and enjoyed the fact that it she looked crazy. I think you're even coming here today to get validation and a Pat on the back like an atta boy, poor you, boo hoo from the rest of the group.

[–]arm_candy5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

He definitely egged the whole shit show on. Laughing at her when she threatened to hit him was absolutely taunting her. Still, this seems like an unsalvageable wreck at this point. What a mess.

[–]hystericalbonding2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

In order for things to get as ugly as they did, you were escalating every step of the way.

/thread

[–]Rogue684861 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

This

What have you learned from all this feedback?

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

A ton, I am going through and commenting on each person who took the time to write something.

  • Be more in tune with the wife (even if it does sound blue)
  • Add comfort and be real about it (even if it does sound blue)
  • get a lawyer

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

She totally thought it was in spite of not getting the hotel room.

Maybe your right, maybe I had some resentment somewhere. But I have reflected on it, and was hard to find it since we had rescheduled the hotel trip for July anyway.

I did escalate the Dancing issue, it wasn't intentional but I was just an ass.

You are right though, I am here for validation that my approach was sound or not. IT WAS NOT. Though I am not looking for emotional validation from internet strangers. Atta boy's can be had from IRL folks, this is not the case for that. Boo Hoo and poor you happens in other subs, not here, everyone knows that.

[–]helaughsinhidden0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Honest reflection is the only way out of the messes we created. FWIW, what you did is almost a play by play reenactment of crap I've done myself

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Hey man I respect that.

I reflected on what commenters said, what she said, what my IRL friends have said, what my lawyer said and most importantly what I want.

I appreciate it all.

[–]jdogworld2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

Your wife’s crazy behavior is a reflection of the environment you are creating. Seems like you lack the capability to have fun and game her and instead are just going Jon Rambo all over the place.

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Perhaps, game and fun weren't on my mind when she wakes me up cussing.

Really I shouldn't have gone dancing, if that was going to cause her all of that jealousy.

[–]jdogworld0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I’m not talking about this specific event. I’m talking about you going Rambo and creating a shitty environment that is creating all this chaos in your life.

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Interesting, something to reflect on. Not actionable but food for thought.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Ya ya. Just another dramatic outburst toward a Rambo faggot.

Get your shit together and give some comfort

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

comfort given

[–]SepeanRed Beret2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy

My wife threw exactly the same type of shit back in the day - maybe she is fearful avoidant which I wrote a guide on https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/bq3rez/handling_a_fearfulavoidant_wife/

If her other behaviors fit the description that is the issue. And if that is the issue then your attempts at comfort and establishing emotional connection is the very thing that is triggering her outbursts. You need to adjust your approach as I describe.

[–]CryptoManbeard0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Where'd you hear the term FA? It sounds from your post like it's an alternative version of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). I've been around marriage talk for a long time (years before TRP was a term). Almost all BPD relationships end the same way, this kind of hot and cold behavior ("splitting" between you being her knight in shining armor and you being the devil), years of her pushing you away then crying for you to stay ("I hate you, don't leave me"), and then one day 5-15 years later they do something to nuke the marriage so they can reject you before you reject them.

Had a good friend with a wife like this. Came home to handcuffs, wife told the cops he sexually molested his daughter and beat his wife. Spent the next 6 months fighting those charges. By the time he got every other weekend with his daughter she had been so poisoned by her mom she didn't want anything to do with him.

If you have good boundaries and self esteem you would not want to be in a relationship like this. These are not healthy relationships. IMO the TRP concepts are for you to establish proper boundaries, which will destroy these toxic women and allow you to mentally see how fucked the relationship is.

[–]RedPillCoach1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

No it's different. BPD's have a history of screwed up relationships. They leave a trail of destruction in their wake.

FA's are often quiet little mouses. They don't deliberately screw up their relationships. They are not cunning, lying, manipulative, or sociopathic either (all BPD traits). Instead Fearful-Avoidant Personalities avoid conflict until it is too late to to anything about it and then they explode.

OP can tell us in 2 seconds whether she has FA traits or BP traits.

However, adding the "D" and calling it a disorder is more problematic. MOST WOMEN EXHIBIT BPD TRAITS WHEN THEIR POWER IN THE RELATIONSHIP IS THREATENED.

It becomes a "Disorder" when the traits significantly affect one or more aspects of their life (for BPD it is significantly impact on marriage, kids, family or other relationship) caused by their sociopathic manipulation and drama.

OP gives a very good example with the 4 a.m. wakeup call but unless it's a consistent pattern it's not BPD.

[–]SepeanRed Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Attachment theory is the best documented and most researched non-pathological field in psychology. FA is not BPD, they're not even remotely close, I don't know why people keep mixing them up.

[–]CryptoManbeard0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I've never heard of FA but the symptoms sound similar. A hallmark of BPD is constant "splitting" between black and white. Someone with Bipolar goes through cycles of mania then depression every few months, someone with BPD will appear to go through these cycles multiple times a day. Another hallmark of BPD is fear of rejection, so they will be terrified of losing their spouse even though they do things to reject them first.

I'm not a psychologist and I'm just googling this on the spot so my terminology may be off but it appears that attachment theory is a different field of study (I'm not really familiar with it) and it's independent of personality disorders. I found this article that shows that attachment studies with BPD patients showed a strong correlation to insecure attachment. "The types of attachment found to be most characteristic of BPD subjects are unresolved, preoccupied, and fearful." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1857277/

So it appears that there's a high correlation between the two which is why you probably notice people mentioning it. And if you take the story this guy shares as factual I wouldn't be surprised at all if she was BPD.

[–]SepeanRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Maybe OP’s wife is BPD. It’s up to him to look at her behavior and figure out what she is. What he describes here, that sounds FA - if she responds this way to emotional connection but is otherwise normal, then FA could be the issue. If she’s BPD there’s going to a lot more erratic behavior.

In general, maybe some BPDs are also FA, I don’t know much about BPD. But you can have practically no BPD-like traits and be FA. FA is in no way an “alternative version of BPD”. Whatever you know about BPD, it is not relevant to dealing with FAs.

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Hey Sapean,

I saw your FA post a while back took the test, read your comments the whole nine. She didn't register as such. I think what happened was I just fucked up reading that going dancing would take her to Dread level 10 when I was only intending to be on DL5. I was ignorant. It is good to hear that this happened to someone else.

I have alot to figure out ahead of me, but she recognizes she was way out of character because she was afraid of losing me and what it meant for the family and how she felt powerless to do anything because it seemed like I didn't care.

Second time she has been violent. First time she was pregnant and crazy and throwing bowls, it was bananas. This time it's because she wanted me to give a fuck that she was scared and hurt. When she calmed down we talked I apologized because it was dumb, she apologized because she felt her actions went too far.

I still have to figure out what Im going to do.

[–]SepeanRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Good to hear you’re not dealing with that.

Note that there’s a lot of guys here who go apeshit over the idea that a woman gets violent. If it is a pattern and it happens often, or is dangerous, then you can’t tolerate it. If there’s ANY risk you can’t control yourself 100%, you can’t tolerate it. But there are also girls who just haven’t learnt to control their temper and violent tendencies and think they have a pussy pass - and that’s not necessarily a sign that they have a psychological problem or that they’ll spiral out of control one day. It’s still an issue you need to handle, but it might not be the red flag that some guys make it out to be.

[–]Reject4442 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah man, this is crazy shit, way beyond normal “shit testing.” I agree with others here that this situation sounds dangerous for you, and you need to take serious steps to protect yourself. Just following MRP alone might not be enough to get you out of this bad situation.

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I hear you

[–]CryptoManbeard3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy

Your wife sounds like she needs serious mental help. I'm not sure your actions alone are enough to right this ship. Better question, why do you want to be in a relationship with someone this crazy?

I was married to someone with BPD you have no idea until you leave how exhausting and draining it is.

[–]dll1420 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is true. My ex wife is a BPD. There is no end to what they'll make up or put you through.

OP is in pretty deep. He almost sounds like he's torchering his lady, not leading her. When you go out, it's fine to go out, but have boundaries for yourself. If I head out without my wife, I respect her and the marriage. I tell her where I'm going, and when I plan to return home. Not because I'm whipped, but because I love and respect her.

I can you, OP, that your situation is complicated and there is no easy fix (if at all).

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Hey,

I don't know if I want to be in the risk of violence and this legal system. Though outside of that one point, this is a one off situation that I caused by pumping her from Dread 0-5 in 3 months and then jumping to Dread Level 10 with no reason no warning and not even an acknowledgement that it was Dread Level 10.

I basically was ... hey our marriage is ok.. hey look at me.. hey you like this good dick.. fuck you I'm going to pickup some new chicks..

So I'm not sure this qualifies for BPD, I think it qualifies for I'm an ASSHOLE.

[–]CryptoManbeard0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You're a classic nice guy (read codependent). The kind of guy that would start a marriage with a clinically insane person and then make excuses for her behavior. What she did is insane. Yes all women are a little crazy, this is outside of normalcy. She literally kidnapped your kid at 4am and assaulted you and your blaming yourself.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

First, do you want to be with her?

You seemed to do a lot of 'pushing off the edge' instead of applying some comfort when needed. AA isn't to be used in every situation... I'm confident it's not a tactic negotiators use when trying to talk someone off a cliff.

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'm not sure, if it wasn't for the violent risk I would say yes. I love my kids, I love our life, she was (pre-fuck-up-main-event) following my lead and hanging on every word I spoke. Things weren't perfect but I was enjoying the challenge of improving them.

I'll say this, if we didn't live in the current society that we do with the dangers to men in these violence situations, I'd stay. If we were in a different country or a different era I'd stay.

I didn't let her take the kids, and that was a power play. She cussed at me, I can handle that. She was violent, I wasn't really hurt, but the possible legal ramifications are wrecking havoc on my psyche.

Contrary to what alot of people think I wasn't trying to be Agree and Amplify (AA). If you mean how I was Amused and saying she was cute when she wanted to hit me, I was just not thinking and it sounded funny. I own that. It was dumb. I wasn't running game or thinking RP, It was a stupid comment to make in the moment you are right.

edit : clarity

[–]useful_stranger2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

  1. You sound like a real joy to be around.

/s

  1. Your wife sounds batshit or in a very bad emotional state.

  2. Have you met with a lawyer yet? You need to be ready in case she files, or more importantly in case you decide to wrap a bow around it and not have anyone ever again cause this kind of drama for your kids to witness and grow up with. At least when they’ll be with you, in your custody. All it takes is one good parent.

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yea, I am a joy when I'm not woken at 4am for cheating with a viscous angry wife!

She was in a very VERY bad emotional state that I put her in.

Yea I met and continue to meet lawyers. One good parent. I hear you. Though most comments here make it appear that my custody would be unlikely.

[–]r_u_a_badfish21 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

The only emotional connection you need to have is with your divorce lawyer.

[–]Rogue684860 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

What dread level is going out dancing with women and telling your fragile wife about it?

What dread level should you be on?

Rambo.

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I should be on 5. It was 10. I thought it would have been nothing. Wrong.

Rambo? Autist? Both? I own it.

[–]RedPillCoach0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I think I have discovered your problem.

2 hours of fogging

What...the..ever...living frack? No, you don't fog for 2 hours while she get's more and more hysterical!

The best move would be to initiate hard and bang the ever living crap out of her. Shove her face right into the pillow and slap her ass.

Unfortunately I bet he will want to fight instead of screw. Why do some guys want revenge instead of hot makeup sex?

I laughed when she said I throw out all her stuff and she cried saying I was mocking her. She sleeps on couch mad/crying.

Sometimes I wonder if we need a "Sperg's Be VERY VERY careful when using MRP" warning label.

not doing housework

Why do you care?

Please read "the subtle art of not giving a fuck" before you do anything else. All of this drama is totally ridiculous and unnecessary.

She wakes me up at 4am. "We need to talk come downstairs now!" "SIT on the couch now!"

This is a woman who was totally confident that she had her Beta Bucks lined up, compliant, and helpless, and she suddenly realized that he is not compliant or helpless. It reeks of a power play to regain control that she was so self assured about.

something...something domestic violence

You are in danger with a wife like this. Don't say you were not warned when your new roommate shoves a plunger up you. She is setting this up for a DV. Notice how she immediately claims you are "holding her hostage." You WILL meet the nice officer very soon. I recommend you talk to a lawyer and do some research on how to interact with the man when your wife makes that call.

I treated this as shit testing, because I saw shit.

Did you see anything of the woman you married?

Next moves are to just distance myself

Why not just file for divorce now? What exactly is the goal? It looks like you just want to take an emotionally unstable and violent woman and push her buttons until...what exactly? Do you know what you want?

[–]Umar_Neo[S,🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Hey coach,

2 hours of fogging over plants is crazy right? Yea, sex may have been the answer. So it wasn't an argument, fogging is me just saying " yea maybe you are right". Makeup sex is cool, just didn't have anything to make up for on Friday.

Sometimes I wonder if we need a "Sperg's Be VERY VERY careful when using MRP" warning label.

Honestly, clarity on shit tests vs comfort tests seems like it could help alot of guys, just my opinon. #ReduceRambo

not doing housework

>Why do you care?

It's my house and I want it clean for my family, guests and self. I'll prioritize "Subltle Art" higher in my reading list!

This is a woman who was totally confident that she had her Beta Bucks lined up, compliant, and helpless, and she suddenly realized that he is not compliant or helpless. It reeks of a power play to regain control that she was so self assured about.

I've never been a push over, she enjoys control though. 7years encouraging her to take control in work, kids, home, etc. As basically an only child I've never been one to acquiese.. Over emote, yes, but not "yes mommy". To what MITW said, she was trying to grasp power because she felt powerless from my actions. This is a very rare behaviour of hers.

Your fucked with DV.

Yes, lawyerd up.

Did you see anything of the woman you married?

Not until the morning when she calmed down.

Why not just file for divorce now? What exactly is the goal? It looks like you just want to take an emotionally unstable and violent woman and push her buttons until...what exactly? Do you know what you want?

As I told u/Steve_rebooting; Things were fucking awesome Wednesday and for months. Before RP stuff sucked but it was managable. This was my fuck up and I did it royally. She was COMPLETELY outside of herself. I'm still lawyerd up but I'm also real about any divorce won't happen overnight.

TL:DR

I'm not intentionally pushing buttons. The plant thing is ongoing for years (I organize her stuff because she doesn't) , that's why we got past it without anyone acting out of character. Her sleeping on the couch is me not knowing how to navigate tests properly, but we recovered. The Dancing issue was me being a dumb fuck not realizing I was saying FUOFM. Then in the morning, when you drive to DREAD 10 and create a main event and you think it's random because you had an hour sleep and are crashing from caffeine you act an ass.

edit:clarity



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