How big a role does BF% play in SMV?

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August 23, 2019

Backstory: I'm currently 22 and been lurking TRP for about 8 months, never gone to a gym until last week, first time i approached a girl in public was at the beginning of this semester and my frame and game needs a lot of work.

I am currently skinny fat with no visible facial bones (18%+ BF) (link to pics removed, message me if you want the link lol).

Will gaining muscle and lowering BF% change my facial shape, or is that purely genetics and i'm screwed? Did you guys see a change when you dropped down to a lower BF%?

Post Information
Title How big a role does BF% play in SMV?
Author wogzt90
Upvotes 67
Comments 84
Date 23 August 2019 08:37 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit askTRP
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framesexual market valuegamethe red pill

[–][deleted] 123 points124 points  (24 children) | Copy

Dude. I'm waaaaay uglier than you and I can pull chicks from the club. Just start talking to them. Anyway, getting muscles and less body fat will help obviously.

[–]wogzt90[S] 33 points34 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm hitting the clubs sat night, i'll give it a crack my dude.

[–]mustache_ride_121 points122 points  (6 children) | Copy

Dude I recommend removing your picture after you get enough feedback. This sub and other redpill forums are monitored by men-hating organizations. You do not want this coming back to bite you in the future (e.g HR googling your pic as part of your job application process and finding out you're a red-piller).

For those thinking I'm paranoid. Google images lets you submit an image today and it will scour the web for similar images. This means, in several years when the algo is good enough, that I could submit your pic and it will facial recognize to find all pictures of you on the internet. ALL OF THEM.

[–]PrayShes1824 points25 points  (0 children) | Copy

i third this.

Get the feedback, then retract asap.

[–]onewayroute13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy

This also works to find the HR lady who is infamous on gonewild, or any other coworker.

[–]porkmissiles11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

I second that.

[–]pussykiller0092 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I fourth this

[–]xero-wing0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I’m piggy backing but iv just done a quick image search and it lead straight back to here.

Like others have said at least delete the picture.

[–]2RedPill-BlackLotus69 points70 points  (9 children) | Copy

Your face is only going to look better as you age. You are very attractive.

Yes, fuck yes, go to the gym. The improvement to your upper chest and how your cloths hang on you will make more of a difference for you than a few ounces of fat on your face. That pick in the white shirt would be fuckig fantastic with more beef under that shirt so it hangs better.

I'm so gay.

I hope you get to keep that beautiful hair.

I'm shredded to the dam bone and you only get so many points for that. Super shredded attracts more men that woman. Once you are about 12% with a 4 pack you are golden.

[–]coinbaserep22 points23 points  (1 child) | Copy

What are you doing later ?

[–]SupremeBBC5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy


[–]HumbleTrees17 points18 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is hilarious 🥇

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

That pick in the white shirt would be fuckig fantastic with more beef under that shirt so it hangs better.

I'm so gay.

hahaha fucking awesome and the first part is bang on.....then second part, 0/10, would not bang.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Well now I’m gay too.

[–]AtlasCuckd0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Can I put in your behind?

[–]black-cattle0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Will you provide reach around services?

[–]ghjklzxcv12320 points21 points  (7 children) | Copy

Yeah lifter/fighter here, i have been both 25% and 7%, now around 9-10%. You can drown in pussy if you have a decent muscle mass and bf below 10%

[–]Aymane2210 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


[–]DiosJ0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

But if you natural and below 10% you don't really look big in clothes. So how do girls know?

[–]i-am-the-prize2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Find shirts that flatter your shape. I bought 6 diff brands at amazon and returned 4 of the 6, kept 2 brands and just bought 4-5 colors of the 2 brands i like and bam, all fit well.

and to answer the OP, yes, get to 10% bodyfat (BF) I was sub 10% when i was your age. I am about 13% now and IOI's are just compounding as i keep lowering and adding muscle. Now they sneak peaks at my neck, arms, thighs when wearing shorts, I pretend not to notice mostly, sometimes smile back and raise eyebrows to call them out, for fun. Again, the average in the US is fat/dad-bods. Just being sub 15% is not average. then you get muscle and closer to 10% and it's like cat nip....

what 'no homo' /u/redpill-blacklotus says is true: when your chest fills out your shirts hang off your pecks and even without a 6-8 pack, your waist looks much smaller when your shoulders and chest are the 'curtain rod' from which the shirt hangs. I've taken many (ie: 2 dozen) favorite old shirts to get tailored to take the waist in so they are all now 'slim fit' (it's what i buy now, wide shoulders and slim waist) feels good man!

[–]DiosJ1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Did the same what you recommended a month ago. Found a good fitting shirt and brought all colors. My chest is really big and it is the thing girls point out on me. But my arms while looking good naked, look smaller and smaller in t-shirt the leaner i get. I'm now 13% bf 72kg and 179cm. Any shirts you would recommend because i can't find any.

[–]i-am-the-prize1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

check out this brand "comfortably collared" i like that they don't have a traditional shoulder seam so you can buy the size (M/L/XL) based on your toro's cut. The L and XL aren't very different in the waist but the XL is bigger through the shoulders/wider. the slim fit polo is very flattering... as my V-shape gets more V-ish, these fit better and better.

[–]ghjklzxcv1230 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It depends on the climate. If you are not living in a very cold area, most of the clothes are revealing enough. Also tinder/bumble or social media is good for showing your body.

your stats can be 1.80m 75kg 8-10% and you will be bigger than most. Being low bf also make your body more triangular shaped, looking big is kind of illusion.

[–]ReddJive17 points18 points  (4 children) | Copy

There are two things Red Pill says to do at the start of your improvement. get fit (muscular and ripped) and make money. It’s because these are easy gains for a man to get what he wants in life.

Lifting teaches a lot of life lessons and it reinforces them. There is also discipline to learn in restricting your diet. The gym is one of the few masculine places left. Assuming you aren’t in a Planet Fitness style gym.

Frame, game, emotional control take a bit more time and experience.

So yes BF does improve your SMV. Here’s the one caveat to that. I am a powerlifter/strongman. I have been for 20 years, I only got serious about it in the last 2 or 3. Meaning I have a coach and I now compete. I am not single digits BF. I am around 19% in fact. I don’t look like the Michelin man. I look like I can fuck a woman in half (and I can).

I follow all the diets, ensure I eat protein, eat lean, and fresh foods. Yet lifting at these levels takes serious energy. Though I have to balance this all out with the high energy lifts I do during the week.

The danger in saying this is some autist is going to go off and Get fat saying he lifts. Well I can’t help that. If you want to be an internet warrior go for it.

There is a difference between this powerlifter and this one

Bodybuilding even has it’s issues. The numbers don’t always tell the story. Key here is to not allow your ego to get the best of you (again a maturity/experience thing) and know exactly where you need to improve. Don’t listen to women when they say they like Dad Bods. Oh they will fuck that beta body for sure, it only proves that someone can desire you and not value you. Plus women want dick. And they will sacrifice certain elements. At the end of the day a dick is just a dick. Yet if you can split her in half? Believe me she will come back for more each and every time. Waking you up in night in fact.

Truth be told I could afford to drop some BF. I have some meets coming up this winter yet my coach wants 100 more pounds on my lifts. Doable but at what cost? If I eat like a pig I am sure I can get those numbers that high. As it stands I am going to keep going and see if I can’t get the numbers up as I as I can. Not like I do this for money. Just have to do something cool with your life.

[–]signsoflife6204 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

Thanks for writing all that out, it was solid advice.

Man you nailed it with the dad bod thing. Before I got redpilled I was still decent with women, especially around high school and college but I never went to the gym.. I fell for them saying they didn’t like muscular guys. Years later I’m skinny fat at 24 years old and I regret not working out so badly. My diet has been trash too. I’m extremely thankful one of my best friends showed me the rational male and now I’m lifting. I hate my body but I’m trying to have patience to fix it. This summer I got my ass to the gym but it sucks playing catch up.

[–]_Icarus_Reborn_2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

You've made more progress than the blue pills still sat on the sofa brother.

[–]signsoflife6202 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Man it’s crazy that all this shit was here waiting to be discovered. I’d kill for someone to have shown it to me in ninth grade lol. And you’re so right about those people. I’m friends with many of them.. it’s like video games and anime sucked their fucking will to live out

[–]_Icarus_Reborn_1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Definitely mate, couldn't agree more.

I'm 31 and found RP awhile ago but wasn't proactive for a while. But finally started applying theory and have made progress.

But as you can see there is fellas in their 40s/50s slaying girls in thier 20s and are also very successful.

It's tried and tested with too many positive stories for this all not to be true. And this is reinforced when you start seeing it irl. Literally, once I new what shit tests, hypergamy etc was I see it all the time.

Well, that was a ramble.

[–][deleted] 51 points52 points  (2 children) | Copy

You don’t even look 18% in your face. Maybe 15. Obviously being ripped improves SMV. Regardless, 1 hour spent “in field” is more valuable than dozens of hours theorizing

[–]wogzt90[S] 28 points29 points  (1 child) | Copy

I finally cracked about a week ago and stopped lurking and tried to do what i had been reading and fantasizing about in my actual real life.

[–]KarmicPrism11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

How'd that go?

[–]Fuktiga_mejmejs11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

Respect for posting pics if yourself and dude you look way better than most, a steady game and you'll be more than fine.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

You look good. Should definitely keep working out mostly because it will help you mentally. Getting leaner and all is just a bonus for you that will likely help as well. But you look good either way, really.

[–]Endorsed Contributormallardcove8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

It matters a ton. All the retards in this thread saying it doesn't matter are fucking idiots and you should ignore them

[–]danielwisenbcaest4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

If I were you I’d bulk up first. It might not affect your face a whole lot since you have some chubby cheeks but I don’t advise cutting down because your neck looks small meaning you must have no shoulders. Bulk up a bit bro you got this

[–]deathhandmachiavelli3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Losing BF is generally good, but if you lose too much (without putting on muscle) and start looking malnourished, then you are losing attraction.

Low BF with more than average amount of muscle is ideal.

In my case, I noticed that I have better luck at 185 (more muscle and more fat) than I do at 165 (completely ripped).

[–]Endorsed Contributormallardcove4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

In my case, I noticed that I have better luck at 185 (more muscle and more fat) than I do at 165 (completely ripped).

It's almost as if its not a binary choice

[–]lukakzinho3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

dude you are good looking hit the gym stay around 12% body fat and you are golden

[–]sjswander942 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

When you get to sub 10% bf your face will look more masculine. You cheek bones more pronounced and jaw looks wider and more defined. It isn’t the only factor to your smv. Will hit help sure. Substitute for bad game no....

[–]AloofusMaximus2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

You don't look terrible IMO. Lifting had a ton of benefits, so I always advocate it. It's not magic though (in fact it takes a lot of dedication and time if you're doing it right).

With that being said appearance does play a role, but that's overall. So that's going to combine physique, grooming, and style. My overall aim for my appearance was to just not "look terrible", and that alone will set you apart from a lot of guys. You can be ripped but still look like a dork or dirtball.

So lose some fat and put on some muscle, but don't think you need to be contest lean to pull women (you don't).

[–]2stoned0jaguar9tre1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Its plays a primal role. It affects women primal instincts. Its like the filter they see everything else about you.

[–]schijtaandezeaccount1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Where are you from? You would slay every girl in the Netherlands, thats for sure lol

[–]wogzt90[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Australia unfortunately

[–]D50HS1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Hey man you look good. Just recomp and add some neck extensions/curls to your workout (check out alphadestiny for some solid neck training tips.)

[–]FinancialThanks12 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

making your neck more muscular will make a big difference

[–]bluepillcarl2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy

Yep - lower body fat will always make a big difference. 18% is not good (I'm in the same boat right now), you are at the high end of where you should be which 20% would be downright ugly to women. Start eating a clean diet and put down a calorie deficit of 500-1000 every day. Lifting weights and cardio both help to get there. Also helps to get a fade haircut.

You should obviously aim to lower your bf closer to 10% but the good news is that we can probably drop 3-4% bf in a couple months if you just maintain a calorie deficit and exercise with intensity. In just 8 weeks you can make a huge difference for yourself. A lot of people here may not agree but I have a friend who is a male fitness model and he swears by 45 minutes of stairmaster every day - I can do 30 minutes and I've done it before and saw the change.

[–]Ohboohoolittlegirl5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

Attraction isn't that black and white.. A tall muscular guy who is on 18% bf is still attractive to women. Don't listen to this guy.. Also cutting only makes sense if you already have a muscles, else he just becomes skinny. He's 1 week in the gym, advicing a cut is counterproductive.

Stop roleplaying

[–]DiosJ1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nah better cut first to 10% them lean bulk.

[–]wogzt90[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Thanks for your response, i'm currently doing -600 cals and using myfitnesspal to track my intake. I will see if the gym i signed up to to has a stairmaster. (I'm more fond of outdoor running tbh).

[–]Ohboohoolittlegirl5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

Why? Get muscles first before cutting.

[–]Fuktiga_mejmejs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I agree, I've been shredded for a while now but I'm gonna bulk and lift heavier to gain some mass during fall and winter and then cut during spring and summer.

[–]bluepillcarl1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah running outdoors also helps. I knew when I responded to your post I'd get the people that are like lol you should only lift weights. It's TRUE lifting weights is huge, you should probably lift first throughout the day. But how can they possibly say that adding in 30 minutes of cardio per day would be detrimental? Lol. Cardio is good for your heart health and is also supposed to help aid your muscles in growth. Since you are new to the gym you will still be able to gain muscle and lower bf at the same time. Check out strong lifts 5x5 program, you can download the app it is easy.

[–]RPthrowaway1230 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'm working on getting mine back down to the 10-12 percent range, currently 16ish. It can only help, I wouldn't say it's the single most important thing though of course. It definitely brings out the muscle appearance.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You're a good looking cat, I don't see 18% BF in those pics.

BF% is very important, a nice v-taper even more so. Deadlifts, rows, chin-ups, and overhead presses, and you're good to go.

[–]Houston2NYC0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Bottom left shirt looks good. Get rid of the other two get ups.

[–]DevilMayCry0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You’re handsome bro, hit the gym then hit the club.

[–]BusterVadge0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You're a great looking guy and your SMV will improve a lot after you spend a year or two in the gym. Find a good workout program. I was skinnyfat and went from SL 5x5 -> PHUL -> PHAT. It's helped me put on 20 or so pounds of muscle and lose my belly in the past 2 years.

It takes time to get jacked. If you have the discipline to trust the process instead of wanting instant gratification you will get there.

[–]alittletoosmooth0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If I had to guess your failures have more to do with your game/frame than anything else. You have an attractive face. That's half the battle. Focus on getting to a place where you know that you are the prize. That may mean more lifting, or it may mean reaching higher levels of success financially, or both. The good thing is you are aware and are hopefully doing things to improve. Good luck.

[–]zeekt120 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

A lean face makes pussy wetter than niagara falls. End of story

[–]AtlasCuckd0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Dude, you look like the kind of guy who checks into European hostels just so he can stalk and murder foreign girls.

Nahhhh for real though, you're a good looking dude and will age well. Just work on the gym to get more size to you. You want to grow out of the teen body. It will pay dividends

[–]Startlivingfornow0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You looks like the future poster child for the #metoo movement. With good game, you’ll be great.

[–]zero0x0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

My chin got more defined after I lost 20lbs. Have you tried Mewing?

[–]Sickem_roy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Grow that beard out...get a shorter cut. Don’t worry so much about what you look like. You can only change how you take care of yourself

[–]NorsemanLewis0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You're 22. Men are like wine (CANT STRESS THIS ENOUGH, AS LONG AS THEY WORK ON THEMSELVES!!) Meaning they get better as they age.

In my opinion,you should focus on two things.

  1. Keep going to the gym, regardless of your bpdyfat, keep sculpting your masterpiece, learn research trail and error all of that.

  2. You really need to stop bothering yourself over this factor. Looks matter, that's a fact. I'm not denying that there are other things than looks which attract women, but a good looking man playing game well has it 5 times easier than an ugly guy playing game, and that's something I've personally as I lost more weight. The second factor is confidence. It attracts women in a similar way as looks do, and asking trp if your BF% makes you look bad on these pictures, is the opposite of being confident. Embrace yourself.

Luckily for you, you are attractive. So you can master all three, looks, confidence and game.

Just remember, you're in your early 20's. That means you're still very young in the SM. Put your focus on developing yourself, other than on women. You'll experience insane, godlike results later on. (And I mean insane, the potential is limitless).

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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