CMV: The term "shallowness" makes no sense, given our physical nature.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2017-09-17T01:13:24+00:00

Would you want to be in a relationship like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N130GqAO4Ok

Electra_Cute · 2017-09-17T01:06:55+00:00

Does anybody understand why this nonsensical "shallowness" notion is so prevalent?

There is two parts to a person, how they perceive themselves, and how others perceive them, this is split into sense of internal self and identity.

Now people generally think that others can see into their heads and figure out what they are thinking, but this is not the case at all. I have a sense of who I am, and when people see my physical appearance, how I move or even the way I talk, they make assumptions about what I must be like, this is because beliefs directly dictate the actions that people take and people can not actually see into yourself the way you can.

Now I can attempt to express who I think I am as a person, and my perception of myself actually affects the way I dress, walk, speak and people will assume that my beliefs line up with that, which may not always be the case.

Here is a picture

Most people would think the individual in that picture is a police officer because of their attire and what they are doing, yet you do not actually know this person at all. Police officers wear uniforms to indicate that they are law enforcement, but no one will actually know that unless they talk to them and see their credentials, it is rational to assume that individual is a police officer. Shallowness is both socially and biologically driven, there are studies suggesting that infants are shallow.

It is very possible that the man in the police uniform is not actually a police officer, just as the beautiful person you see in front of you may have a genetic disorder, but there is reasons why beauty is associated with positive traits and there is a reason why a person would assume someone dressed in that attire is a police officer.

OfSpock · 2017-09-17T01:14:58+00:00

Shallow used to be saved for extremely frivolous complaints. Like that Eddie Murphy movie where he won't date a stunningly beautiful woman who had ugly toes.

JustStatedTheObvious · 2017-09-17T01:31:19+00:00

Let's say you have two people - one is blessed with every single beautiful thing - she could model - but every night is verbal abuse, or, for variety, mind games designed to make you completely emotionally dependent on her. She's got a bad habit of breaking things, when she's angry. Or drunk. Or bored.

And maybe, her violence doesn't always stop there.

You don't dare call the cops. You know what she'll do if you try it again.

But the sex is mind blowing. And in a crowd, complete strangers respect the picture you two offer - it's like you're in a Disney movie, suddenly. Society has declared you a winner.

Do you agree?

A lot of shallow people are willing to make those kinds of bargains with the devil, to varying degrees.

By contrast, there's someone who's an average face in a crowd, except when she smiles like you're in a conspiracy together, takes your breath away, and everything just falls into place. Love, lust, trust, it's all going great, and no matter how many mistakes you guys make in the relationship, even after the first rush of limerence fades, you have each other's backs. She's not just an amazing lover in every way, she's your best friend, and without being blood, she's practically already family.

Explain why she - and everything you share together - shouldn't rate nearly as high as a complete stranger with a prettier face?

You won't convince me, but I want to see how desperate the shallow are to believe everyone's as bad as they are. Is it a cognitive failure or a deliberate self-deception?

rulenumber303 · 2017-09-17T03:53:29+00:00

The word "shallow" is a way of conveying swiftly to others that someone has a very strong manifestation of a particular bias in perceiving and dealing with the world. It isn't nonsensical, it is a thoroughly useful descriptive term by which people can quickly describe a great deal about another person. If you don't find it useful don't use it yourself. Other people, however, aren't going to stop finding it useful just because you dislike it.

[deleted] · 2017-09-17T07:41:57+00:00

"Shallow" shaming needs to stop. Who a woman finds sexually attractive ain't got shit to do with her morality or character. Be "shallow" and be proud, girls. If the manosphere doesn't like it, tough shit. Finding your mate sexy is no longer a luxury afforded only to men.

TheBookOfSeil · 2017-09-17T00:53:10+00:00

Valuing SMV over RMV does not make sense from a logical long term focused perspective

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pinkgoldrose · 2017-09-17T02:23:16+00:00

You're just deconstructing the word shallow.

Shallow means the stuff that's on the surface, ie. the stuff that's instantly accessible about a person: looks, age, race, clothes, single mom, virgin, slut, the car they drive, etc.

The opposite of shallow is when you dig past the things you can see instantly and get to know the person, why they live the life that they live, what they talk about, what they believe in, etc.

TheBookOfSeil · 2017-09-17T03:43:08+00:00

"Shallowness" is a concept formed as a result of our more advanced cognitive abilities. If we didn't have a higher capacity for thought, there wouldn't be much depth to us as animals.

sittinginabaralone · 2017-09-17T04:05:16+00:00

That's a lot of naturalistic fallacy.

The reason people denounce such attraction is because it is not rewarding. Perhaps, for lust but not for love. Sex and physical attraction does not maintain a relationship.

It's not shallow to appreciate physical beauty, only it exclusively.

[deleted] · 2017-09-17T04:29:44+00:00

"Shallow" is just a classic way of feminists to bash men. It stems from the fact that male attraction is very simple and easy to predict(since it's 90% simple physical sexual attraction) while female attraction was misunderstood through the entirety of history(remember all these cultural memes how women are unfathomable, "no means yes", men are from mars and women are from phobos and deimos, etc.) and is focused more on the context of the male.

Then, because human society is gynocentric, men joined in the chorus.

Love8Death · 2017-09-17T04:39:20+00:00

The point of calling things shallow is not for logical correctness, rather the effect it achieves in helping less beautiful women shame men into dating them despite a lack of beauty.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2017-09-17T06:08:46+00:00

Does anybody understand why this nonsensical "shallowness" notion is so prevalent?

For four reasons. First, because like you said there's this long-running idea in our culture (it goes back to Plato and is common in many religions) that the flesh is lowly and craven and weak, and that the spirit is high and beautiful and noble. Ergo the former is to be denied in favor of the latter.

Second is that people like to think highly of themselves. If they're raised to think that acting on looks is giving in to some "inferior" or "subhuman" part of themselves they'll do anything they can to avoid admitting the truth.

The third point is that looks in fact do not indicate whether someone is a good person. There are tons of evil people whom are hot and good people whom aren't. There's kind of a whole Just World Complex to this... shouldn't good people get good sex/fulfilling romantic relationships? If people whom are utter cunts can still get fulfilling romantic relationships that's kind of a scary thought in some ways; it certainly lessens the incentive to be a good person. Perhaps the concept of shallowness came about to correct for this.

Fourth is a bit more conspiratorial a possibility... let us be honest, our culture expects men to be shallow and women to not be shallow. This creates the Nice Guy situation, but its a situation that benefits many women through creating the "Beta Orbiter" (I hate to use the phrase). Basically, women can passively 'string along' men through relying upon men's presumed belief that being nice to women is a sufficient condition to spark romantic interest. Men are thus nicer to women whom have no romantic interest in them than they'd otherwise be. So women thus have an incentive to propagate the idea that women are not shallow and that shallowness is a bad thing (and yes, the "ugly women condemning shallowness in men because they feel entitled to men" is also a thing here), whilst personally being shallow themselves. That said, I doubt this is a conscious conspiracy or anything; self-flattering and self-interest-advancing myths (like "women aren't shallow") are just naturally going to appeal to those who benefit from them.

MrB0gus · 2017-09-17T09:48:19+00:00

Because we don't like the way we are sometimes.

We don't like to admit that we're superficial.

So we say "looks don't matter" and "it's what's on the inside that counts". And we call people who think otherwise "shallow".

It makes us feel like we are nice good people.

Debra_Lou · 2017-09-17T15:50:00+00:00

I disagree. It's precisely because of our nature and because sex and sexual selection is so important in our lives that the term make sense: It's a coping mechanism for genetically unattractive folks (used mostly by men tbh). Without said coping mechanism, I assume there wouldn't be much reasons to go on living for many of these guys.

Another function the term may have (from an evolutionary pov) is to try to shame or guilt others into liking them. Ex: when short men complain that women are shallow for wanting 6"+ tall men.

notevenathrowaway456 · 2017-09-19T03:33:56+00:00

1) Straw-man. Shallowness is commonly defined as caring almost exclusively about physical beauty.

2) "You can't separate love from this aspect of human nature"... Mmm... Yes you can ? This is patently false. Maybe you mean lust ? Erotic love ?

3) "denial that a beautiful face/body can provoke an emotional response as deep as anything else can in this world"... Mmm ... Just no ?

Anyway if I had to pick a main reason, that would be that people grow old (and therefore, ugly), and much common sense culture is geared to provide useful guidance for your 25+ (it's just 2/3 of your entire life and 6/7 of your adult life, after all). Old people clinging to their beauty and/or chasing pretty younglings are almost uniformly malfunctioning.

Willow-girl · 2017-09-19T12:19:44+00:00

If you fuck somebody simply because they're good-looking, you're OK -- nothing to worry about.

If you marry them, however -- you may be shallow!

newName543456 · 2017-09-20T07:23:28+00:00

"Shallowness" makes no sense, because people are allowed to want different kinds of relationships.

If someone wants strictly sexual, no attachment kind of relationship, it's their right.

Title	CMV: The term "shallowness" makes no sense, given our physical nature.
Author	HopefulAboutADHD
Upvotes	7
Comments	140
Date	September 17, 2017 12:50 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/70kl06/cmv_the_term_shallowness_makes_no_sense_given_our/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-the-term-shallowness-makes-no-sense-given-our.266043 https://theredarchive.com/post/266043

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