Which of these, if any would you consider to be sexual assault?

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2016-06-01T07:40:30+00:00

2 and 3 could be battery if you're talking about law, 1 is not because there's no intent to cause an unwanted offensive touching. If you're not talking about law but some moral category of "assault" then you're just making it up as you go along, so you decide

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2016-06-01T06:51:42+00:00

Assault

At Common Law, an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.

An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm.

Like this

But with dicks.

Entropy-7 · 2016-06-01T06:12:57+00:00

No
Probably not
Probably yes

The key points are whether a) the touching was consensual and b) whether there was a sexual context

Even with a) you have to understand that not all non-consensual touching is an assault, even if intentional. If you tap a person on the shoulder to get their attention then that is socially acceptable, and grabbing someone before they step out into traffic to keep them from being hit by a car is even a better example.

So 1. is probably not intentional and there is a social understanding that crowding into an elevator will involve a certain amount of non-consensual touching.

The second point, b) is more confounding. The reason is two fold. First is the focus on body parts - the genitals, anus and breasts and surrounding areas - as being the test for what is sexual. The second the focus on the alleged victim's subjective perception of the physical contact instead of the alleged perpetrator's, the latter being related to the mens rea if we are talking about criminal liability.

In total, you have to consider what was reasonably understood by both perpetrator and victim or what should have been reasonably understood.

Touching someone's thigh at the end of a seated conversation is not so uncommon. Guys will tap or pat another guy's shoulder, arm, knee or thigh as a goodbye gesture. "Rubbing", not so much but that is common as a comforting gesture such as between an adult and child. Without knowing more about the kind of "rubbing" that was going on, 2. probably was not a sexual assault.

On the other hand, in 3. we are talking about a pat on the bum in a what I presume was a somewhat sexually charged environment: night club dancing. It seems more as an indication of sexual interest.

DaphneDK · 2016-06-01T07:44:06+00:00

None of them are anything remotely resembling sexual assault - or any other kind of assault, except assault on common decency: obese men should stop being obese.

Heathcliff-- · 2016-06-03T11:53:10+00:00

None of them. It becomes assault when they don't stop.

[deleted] · 2016-06-01T10:30:49+00:00

Two oversteps a line of reasonable behaviour, three is is more vague given the context, one is innocent.

Leinadro · 2016-06-01T13:37:38+00:00

First one definitely not sexual assault. Its an accidental touch of sexual areas but there is no intent behind it. The only reason he touched her os because there is limited space in the elevator.

I dont think the seconf one is assault but you could call it harassment. There may be some actual intent here, even if it wasnt sexual on his part. At most he may need to be told what he did so that he knows she doesnt like being touched that way. But I wouldn't call it assault.

Third one is like the second one to me (although I think you were trying to mix in elements of the elevator example). He seems to have meant to touch her but I wouldnt call it assault. Harassment perhaps and by your story when she showed mo interest he left so I think he got the message. He could stand to learn that a hand to the butt isnt a great idea for first contact but I wouldnt call it assault.

[deleted] · 2016-06-01T13:44:26+00:00

None of them. Unless the woman asks the man to stop and he didn't, I don't see anything wrong with any of those things. They all seem pretty friendly to me aside from the fat guy in the elevator who isn't purposely trying to touch the woman.

Also, why all men touching women? No female on male examples?

hyperrreal · 2016-06-01T15:31:12+00:00

I think this whole thread needs a major dose of I Am Not A Lawyer.

Unless you are a lawyer of course, and even then I have to ask what kind of law do you practice?

Shitty legal "definitions" and angry male denunciations of coddled females incoming in 3, 2,...

CovenantoftheSun · 2016-06-01T05:09:10+00:00

Two is borderline harassment, but neither assault or harassment. I can tell you most women would feel violated, complain to their girlfriends that he's creepy, and the liberty taking sot would wonder why he got the cold shoulder and she's answering k to all his texts and then always busy when he wants to hangout.

In the hypothetical elevator obviously not assault. I know that scenario almost never happen, but eh, if it did its not assault.

The dance club is pretty gray, but I'm assuming its kind of a given that dirty dancing happens. Harassment needs to be repeated advance after someone says no. Clear signs of disinterest is a not the same as a no. Either way, no harm no foul. Besides, this guy took the hint which is good because most women would tend to avoid conflict where possible.

Fourth scenario. You're at work and a guy walks up and grabs your breast. Assault?

exit_sandman · 2016-06-01T12:00:05+00:00

Well, 3 is sexual assault according to some.

nyjl · 2016-06-01T15:08:43+00:00

Is this shit for real? None.

BluePiller1776 · 2016-06-01T16:06:26+00:00

I wouldn't consider any of these flat out assault.

My office building has small elevators and people cram into them. Accidental touching happens, just dont be weird about it.
If she's uncomfortable than he's just crossing the comfort line. I wouldnt consider it assault.
This is probably the closest to assault if anything although if it were me, I wouldnt care unless he repeated did it. Either way the guy is a douche unless the girl was giving him signals she likes him.

[deleted] · 2016-06-01T05:31:45+00:00

All three are assault. Men have no right to touch or talk to women without first correctly interpreting consent from 4 out of 7 nonverbal gestures.

But in all seriousness, guy 1 should've waited for another elevator while guys 2 and 3 should never have made contact.

lbspredh · 2016-06-01T06:27:08+00:00

take the stairs you fat fuck, but no not sexual assault
needs context, and are we talking inner or outer thigh, and how high, a pat on the outer thigh can just be friendly but then again it could be an attempt at sexual assault
probably but I'd be surprised if it went to court

disposable_pants · 2016-06-01T14:36:38+00:00

The most interesting responses on this thread are to situation number two -- lots of people saying that while it's not assault, it's "creepy" or "inappropriate." To me, two is clearly a situation where the guy was trying to go from friends to a relationship, saw she didn't go for it, and he backed off without pushing further or forcing the topic. Many guys make moves on their friends (and that's something blue pillers often recommend); her turning him down doesn't make that inappropriate or creepy.

red-pill-man · 2016-06-01T14:50:57+00:00

None.

Wowbaggerrr · 2016-06-01T15:02:58+00:00

1 is uncomfortable but definitely not assault. 2 and 3 I think could technically be called sexual assault, but I don't think any legal action against them would hold up. There was no touching of genitals, and from these scenarios, it seems like it was a one-time thing. If the guy had a history of touching her and she had said "I don't like this, please stop," then there would be an issue. This sort of circles back to the Affirmative Consent thread yesterday. If a guy wants to make a move, even a small one like touching her thigh, does he need a verbal "Go ahead" from the woman? As a woman, I feel like that's overkill and would get old really fast. If I was a guy, I'd be terrified that small moves like that would get me labelled as a creep or even land me in court.

SpaceWhiskey · 2016-06-01T17:59:57+00:00

Sounds like an accident.
This one's borderline. Rubbing someone's thigh without their permission is definitely unwanted sexual contact. Not a very smart thing to do if you don't know how she'll feel about being touched.
Also borderline. Was it an accident or did he touch her butt on purpose? I'd need more information. She could easily get him kicked out of the club if she wanted after that.

Chicken_Nuggers_666 · 2016-06-01T18:08:55+00:00

The second and third ones are the only ones that can be since the man in the first one didn't mean to touch her in a sexual and harassing way.

Apexk9 · 2016-06-01T19:33:57+00:00

A woman is in an elevator with a few other people. At one of the floors, a very obese man walks in, and takes up most of the remaining space in the elevator. In the man doing so, the man's fat arm and stomach rolls are pressing against the woman's boobs and front area, with her not being really able to move away.

NO. Though tell them to take the other elevator as this one is to full for their fat ass. If they persist leave the elevator and you take the next one. Comfort is easy to attain when you seek solutions.

A woman and her friend are chatting on a park bench, while sipping some tea. Near the end of the conversation, the male friend laughs, and rubs her thigh with his hand. The man says bye to the woman, and walks away. The woman didn't feel comfortable about him touching her thigh.

NO. The women should tell the male that he should not touch her again.

A woman is dancing to loud music in a night club. A man starts dancing next to her, amongst numerous other people around her. He goes over to her, and taps her butt with his hand, then continues to dance next to her. The woman doesn't say anything, but doesn't reciprocate any action toward the guy. He shortly moves off to another part of the dance floor.

Like its inappropriate and you gotta be a huge douche loser to do that but like all these scenarios is where the person themselves should do something.

If I was a girl you know what id do in the night club turn around pretend to be into the dancing then knee him in the balls with all my force and disappear that will teach him to fucking think twice about ever doing it again.

GaiusScaevolus · 2016-06-01T22:39:40+00:00

None.

andrewisgood · 2016-06-02T01:02:36+00:00

Ok, so the first example is really, really stupid. Even with the few other people, I mean, have you ever been in an Elevator before. If you were like, there was a packed elevator and someone was pressing against you, why not that one because that's more reasonable.

Or, if you've been to Tokyo. I went in 2013 went on the train, and it was like packing in sardines.

I wouldn't call that sexual assault, but it's definitely sexual harassment.
The second one is also another tough one, but because you've presented it in a very vague manner, it seems like the woman probably thought it was an accident. So basically, two are accidents and one is sexual harassment.

funchy · 2016-06-02T02:45:59+00:00

A major disagreement between people here on the sexual assault studies is they include a lot of border-line cases, or grey-areas. Therefore, I thought to include some sample scenarios, and discuss whether or not would you would declare them to be sexual assault.

A woman is in an elevator with a few other people. At one of the floors, a very obese man walks in, and takes up most of the remaining space in the elevator. In the man doing so, the man's fat arm and stomach rolls are pressing against the woman's boobs and front area, with her not being really able to move away.

Accidentally bumping into someone isn't sexual assault. There's a world of difference between a normal overcrowded elevator versus a creep pressing his boner into a girls butt in a crowded public place.

A woman and her friend are chatting on a park bench, while sipping some tea. Near the end of the conversation, the male friend laughs, and rubs her thigh with his hand. The man says bye to the woman, and walks away. The woman didn't feel comfortable about him touching her thigh.

In our culture the woman's thigh is a more sexual area. A normal guy who feels the need to make contact might touch a forearm or hand. And rubbing is more sexual than a light touch.

He didn't have the right to do it. Was it legally sexual assault? It might be a grey area as far as the law goes.

If the man was her boss or her professor, his behavior would clearly be inappropriate and I think he should be reprimanded.

It's just creepy and rude. Men: how would you feel if a stranger you aren't thinking sexual thoughts about pats you on your junk while making a joke?

A woman is dancing to loud music in a night club. A man starts dancing next to her, amongst numerous other people around her. He goes over to her, and taps her butt with his hand, then continues to dance next to her. The woman doesn't say anything, but doesn't reciprocate any action toward the guy. He shortly moves off to another part of the dance floor.

Why would he touch her butt? That's just a weird thing to do to a stranger. I'd classify it as creepy. he may end up one on those guys who can't figure out why he goes home alone so often.

This shouldn't be that hard to figure out: if one person touches another in an area our society associates with sex (such as butt, breast, thighs/crotch) without knowing the recipient wants it, don't do it. Those parts of the body are more sensitive and it makes the recipient feel vulnerable. What makes anyone think a stranger would welcome an unexpected groping or butt grab?

statsfodder · 2016-06-06T04:09:17+00:00

2 and 3 are only ok if he is a good looking man otherwise it is literally rape.... and number 1 is definitely assault and rape in one, i mean an unattractive, obese, sweaty man thing in the same room as you is offensive enough but to have him touch you as well.. blergh!

/s (as if it is needed)

exit_sandman · 2016-06-01T05:11:09+00:00

None of them, those scenarios all sound innocent and harmless to me. I think sexual assault starts with, like, someone walking over and shoving their hands down a woman's pants or grabbing her tits. That being said, I've dealt with worse and still never considered it assault-- just clumsy drunk guys getting their signals crossed. Shit happens.

BrahYouSerious · 2016-06-01T09:29:50+00:00

If its something 2 guys can and will do casually, its not sexual.

So 2 is probably completely fine socially and certainly isnt assault, no implied or possible threat.

3 is completely fine because of the context, and again has no implied or possible threat.

None of these are assault. 3 has a sexual context but its fine due to context, and 2 almost certainly has no sexual context but even if it did it certainly isnt assault.

miss-xaviette · 2016-06-01T10:22:02+00:00

No, but rather rude
Probably no, but not appropriate either. It depends on the nature of the rubbing, if it was lingering and high up on the thigh then quite possibly yes.
If it was just a brief tap I'd say no, not assault. Not okay in any way but not severe enough to be assault. I'd possibly call it harassment but that still doesn't quite seem the right word. If he grabbed her arse, boobs or stuck his hand up her skirt without her giving clear indication that she was into him, then I would say yes, assault.

midnightvulpine · 2016-06-01T10:37:19+00:00

Number one is not necessarily assault, but if he does not at least attempt to make an accommodation with her, it's decidedly rude. If there is room and he positions himself to crowd her, it could be considered a mild form assault at least.

Number two is not necessarily assault either. One time is obviously lacking in tact, but not assault in my opinion. If the man makes a habit of putting his hands on her despite not having an invitation to, then it gets more concerning.

Number three. Again, not really in my opinion. Again, it's just once. It's brief. Eventually he takes the hint. In my opinion at least.

As presented I don't believe any of theses are outright sexual assault. They're definitely potential failures of manners and a means to which a woman can decide what she thinks of a man. To me, in cases like this, the tone and intent in a touch can mean more than the touch itself. If the man seems utterly unaware and not really focused on the touch, it can just be a slip in manners.

Nothing to go to trial over, though.

ozymandias271 · 2016-06-01T13:58:41+00:00

Donald Trump's campaign manager was charged with battery for yanking someone's left arm. Grabbing someone's arm against their will is, technically, the crime of battery.

Is this going to be enforced most of the time? No, not really-- just like no one will enforce "touching someone's leg without their consent is technically the crime of sexual assault". But it's still illegal because of the difficulties of drawing a legal line between different kinds of unwanted touch of the same body parts.

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[deleted] · 2016-06-01T08:10:14+00:00

None of them.

rulenumber303 · 2016-06-01T08:40:11+00:00

From the point of view of feeling warranted in the reaction I think is reasonable (medium to long term shunning /ostracism of the person who is giving offense) I don't think it is necessary for me to judge whether any of those situations are or aren't the crime of sexual assault. So I don't bother making that judgment. My approach is a pragmatic one.

Title	Which of these, if any would you consider to be sexual assault?
Author	gavinok
Upvotes	3
Comments	82
Date	June 1, 2016 4:57 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4lzld6/which_of_these_if_any_would_you_consider_to_be/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/which-of-these-if-any-would-you-consider-to-be.274482 https://theredarchive.com/post/274482

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