Can there be an ethical approach to the red pill?

EmpressofMars · 2016-02-02T14:06:59+00:00

I am feeling the pull of that "you are a terrible person" strongly today.

Xem. You don't need more RP vs BP, you don't need more "MGTOW" ideas, you don't need more gender politics. You need help.

If you're not already going to a licensed therapist I strongly suggest going to see one. They in turn could recommend some new/different medication and some techniques to help you cope and feel better.

I think you've unfortunately fallen into the trap of getting more and more obsessed with this stuff, and as a result you are unconsciously projecting it on your own life. It's very evident to me that you're not happy, and this unhappiness is just going to keep pulling you lower and lower unless you get the help you need to dig yourself out of it.

If I were you, what I would do is first seek help by finding a therapist. I'm not sure how the UK health system works but you should be able to find one you can afford or that's covered by your health program.

Then, you need to make sure you're taking care of yourself. Try taking a walk, even if it's just for a half hour each day. I know the UK is notorious for not-so-pleasant weather, but just a brief walk to start your day will help your body wake up and get your brain to release endorphins, elevating your mood. Make sure you're taking a multivitamin and getting proper nutrition with a diverse diet full of fruits and veggies. There are lots of cheap recipes online with delicious dishes under $1 per serving and even more delicious meals for one that you can cook.

If you don't have a job, or not one you're happy with, I suggest trying to find one. I know that's often easier said than done but trying new things and keeping yourself busy (and getting paid for it!) can be a great distraction. Plus, if it's something physical (such as gardening or construction or something else that involves building or creating) you can then look back and say "I helped do that!" This can help give you a sense of accomplishment.

If you're unable to get a job right now due to not feeling stable enough, it's ok. You obviously have a lot to deal with, so you're going to need time and help to adjust. Try maybe working from home or a job for introverts if you don't want a ton of social interaction right now. Take baby steps. Maybe try to hold yourself to volunteering 5 hours a week, and then 10 hours, and then 15, and so on until you can get yourself used to keeping appointments and a time schedule. Then look for some part time work in either something physical or something that interests you and push yourself to work 15-20 hours a week. As your therapy continues you can push yourself to increase your hours and maybe even get a full time job if you can find one.

Then you need to focus on getting more out of life. This may be difficult for you, but a therapist will help you make plans and decide what you want. Maybe you'd like to learn some new things. In the age of the internet you can always take online courses and learn new languages online for free. Like music? Maybe learn how to play the guitar or the piano for instance. If you have the money even just taking a university course or two could be very interesting and even count in progress towards a degree.

If you'd like to meet new people and aren't so great at striking up conversations with strangers, maybe a group like the Oddfellows is for you. That being said, just by looking around in your community you could probably find hobby groups that interest you, whether it's knitting or RC planes or D&D or a book club. Activities like this can help keep you social and connect with new people.

Even just trying new things by yourself can give you a sense of peace and adventure. Maybe try taking a hike, reading at the library, seeing a show, or maybe even travel if you can afford it. Not two days ago I myself went to an unfamiliar city to see Muse by myself since none of my other friends had enough saved to go, and I had the time of my life and even met some new friends at the concert!

Finally, now that you're beginning to keep yourself busy, you can focus on generating meaningful relationships. Try reaching out to people in the clubs and organizations you're interested in. If people still aren't your thing, and you have the money and physical ability to, try fostering or adopting a pet. It may sound silly but pets offer wonderful companionship free of judgement, and are consistently loving and accepting.

If love or romance comes to you in the form of a woman, try it out. If she says no, move on. Romance may come or it may not. The important thing is focusing on having a good life regardless of what's going on with your romantic/sexual life.

I really hope you'll work with a therapist to take some of this advice. Baby steps. Try walking twice a week to start with, committing yourself to therapy weekly, and maybe trying a new recipe every week. Work with your therapist and go forward from there.

Kindness begets kindness, and good intentions can go a long way.

I'd say the vast majority of people on here want you to be happy, Xem. But you won't find happiness in gender politics and oft-circuitous debate. You need to get help, and build that happiness for yourself. It will be hard, but you can do it.

Wishing you all the best.

TL;DR: Get therapy/medication. Walk. Eat well. Try new recipes. Work towards getting a job by volunteering a little each week. Learn about things that interest you. Seek out and join new groups in your community. Go on adventures either solo or in a group. Try to make friends or adopt a furry friend. Don't worry about love or romance, but try it out if it comes to you. Be kind and know that you are worthy and loved.

Iwanttoliveinspace · 2016-02-02T10:26:34+00:00

MGTOW.

That's the easiest way to look at the Red Pill in an "ethical" way.

I live my life for me. I don't neg girls, I don't lead them on, I decline any advances so they know where they stand with me.

All my money and time is mine, and no-one else's.

Is there anything fair in the world? Well, in a word, no.

However, when you view the world as a meritocracy (which, fundamentally, it is), you can realise that hard work (in the right direction) pays off.

The problem is when a man puts his effort into a direction that doesn't reward as a meritocracy should. For example, into a woman.

The shit tests, branch swinging, and the whole AFBB can be, to an extent, all true. There is indeed a risk there, yes, maybe you find a unicorn, but the costs to get to the unicorn are (at least for MGTOWs) simply too great.

From your post, it looks like you might have hit the acceptance stage of RP. Where you realise this is how the world is, so what now?

Now, you just do what you want to do, to make you happy. Not what society tells you should make you happy.

Apexk9 · 2016-02-02T10:45:51+00:00

Create your own moral boundaries and honor them do not let other people walk over you or dictate how you should live your life.

Realize you have a limited time on this organic floating rock enjoy it. Life sucks but find ways to be the best you and how to enjoy it the most you can.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2016-02-02T16:20:39+00:00

reading this i thank god for my sociopathic tendencies. how do you operate with all of those feelers

lolobviously · 2016-02-02T11:45:02+00:00

Ethical?

According to who?

alreadyredschool · 2016-02-02T10:20:19+00:00

inherently greedy, selfish and ego driven.

So you entered psychological egoism? Either change it to rational or what you will probably like more ethical egoism.

Why won't anyone let me go MGTOW without judgment?

Because that would be giving up. If you go your own way out of a place of abundance, simply because you see no more value in empty one night stands and relationships, or just none in relationships and continue with the ONSs then everything is fine. But the primal desire to be desired, to feel intimacy, to have sex, companionship are strong and the lack of it will fuck with your brain.

I know two twerps who were there from the beginning, both are very religious nowadays and just care about creating a legacy. Religious circle game - in a community.

Find your mission, purse it relentlessly, have fun doing so.

even if it meant sacrificing our own potential chance of happiness.

You miss all the shots... you can't explain this logic to me, why wouldn't you try?

I suppose I am too beta to do anything but seek to empathise with the Dark Triads and sociopaths of this world. Whatever Laws of Power I use will likely be for my own defence.

50% of their success comes from focusing on their self image and holding themselves in high regards. The other 50% is simply being different than most people, something new is interesting.

Can there be morality in the red pill reality?

Sure. Morals are always the same - the strong restrict themselves to even the play field for the weak. You have the opportunity to do something which benefits you but hurts others. If you do it you are an immoral opportunist. If you don't do it you acted in a moral manner and nobody will reward you, unless you yourself do it. If you feel better by not doing it, then you already got your reward.

And by reading your stuff lately I get the feeling that we could be friends, you won't happen to come to esti some time do you?

Archwinger · 2016-02-02T18:16:23+00:00

Quit being a child.

I felt something yesterday which caused me to reconsider things. I forgot how raw feelings can be. I have tried to approach everything here with near pure reason and analysis. I compartmentalised my emotions so as not to let them take too strong a hold.

Having feelings is normal. Part of being a grown up is what you do about your feelings and how you use them. Shoving them down inside and trying not to feel them is not a grown up thing to do any more than wearing them on your sleeve and whining constantly is. I don’t think either pill advocates not having emotions.

I still remember her saying "You don't know the damage you've done to me." My last thread was pulled, but do you have any idea what it is like to see tears in the eyes of someone you dearly loved and were trying to save? What it is to realise that your attempts to heal just hurt?

First, don’t listen to shit women say, only what they do. Second, don’t try to change or “heal” or “save” people. It’s not your place. The only thing you can control and change is you.

I don't know how to get by in a red pill reality. I want to reject both pills, again…ultimately, both factions are as troubled and corrupt as each other.

Neither TRP nor TRP are “factions”. They’re not movements. They’re not something you belong to or choose to ascribe to. They’re just a bunch of ideas people piss out on to the Internet via their keyboards. Being able to read ideas and constructively judge them and use them appropriately is a grown up thing to do. Trying to find some kind of Internet ideology to belong to is more of a timid child thing to do.

My religious conditioning is getting the better of me. Call it feminine primary conditioning perhaps. Low testosterone. True blue idk. It's long been recognised that the moral conditioning, the code of honour men are held to is one of the cruellest social conventions used to enforce their duties to monogamously pair bond and be a woman's bitch.

Or maybe you were dropped on your head as a kid. But it’s not your fault or your responsibility to grow up and live an adult life, right? It’s all your past’s fault. Child-you was wronged and now adult-you is helplessly trapped, right?

I'm reminded of a quote from Thomas More in Wolf Hall, as Cromwell stands before him in the Tower of London waiting for his decision whether to sign an oath of fealty to the king. Historian buffs here will know Wolf Hall is about the English (European/Protestant) Reformation during Henry VIII's era; More was executed for holding onto his Catholic loyalties when Henry wanted to separate England from Rome's papal authority. For More to sign this would be, in his conception of faith, heresy. He was ultimately executed for refusal to sign, i.e. treason. [sic] "If I do not sign this parchment today, my body is forfeit; if I sign it, my soul." Damned if I do damned if I don't.

You really need to get off of the internet and go live in the real world for awhile. Grown ups can read books and shit on the internet and not feel trapped.

Why won't anyone let me go MGTOW without judgment? My time here has led me to realise that people are inherently greedy, selfish and ego driven. You all just want to mock the choices of anyone who doesn't enter your frame. The women here are obsessed with getting men ostensibly unattractive enough to be regularly venting online, likely not Game-aware, to recognise their low value and filter themselves out of the gene pool. The men with having someone validate their pain and rationalising fighting fire with fire.

So you’re looking for yet another thing to belong to and define yourself by? Let me give you a hint: Whatever answer you think you’re looking for, it’s not in some kind of internet ideology, book, movie, or anywhere else. In fact, you’re not actually looking for an answer, nor are you supposed to be. You got this life thing all wrong.

TRP says that women are self-interested narcissistic creatures who won't take twice about using and discarding me, yet women imply that men who won't gladly sacrifice themselves for the feminine imperative are cruel, selfish men. Man's purpose in this world ultimately is one of 2 things: 1) To spread his genes to the next generation, if he is worthy (which I am not…) 2) To serve women, children and others.

If whatever’s wrong with your head and your maturity level is genetic, then yes, you should definitely not pass on your genes.

Having woken up to how they were conned, redpillers have adopted the puerarchy; the permanent adolescence of life on their own terms without responsibility. And according to gynocentric reality that makes them cruel, awful people. Abusers and rapists in the making, even.

With all the time you spend over-thinking and obsessing about this Red Pill shit, that’s the summary you’ve come to?

It's clear from the literature that women are primarily attracted to Dark Triads and settle for men with a more pronounced moral compass, engaging with them on their own terms. Indeed, sensitivity is a bad trait to have because it's anathema to the testosterone required to make a name for oneself in the world. These latter men are ultimately just tools of the feminine imperative, to be disposed o, divorce raped and cuckolded at will. Hell, the lit. says that monogamous pair bonds are un-natural; we are only supposed biologically to stay with our partner until our child reaches sexual maturity in the wild, anywhere between 7-12 years.

Okay, you really, really, really need to stop reading all of this gender war crap and turn off your computer. Go spend a few months in the real world. Toss your phone in the toilet. You’ve begun to think that this tiny little corner of the internet, where the rest of us discuss gender interactions as a casual hobby between the real-life things we do, is this major issue in the world. 99.999 percent of humanity doesn’t know or care about any of this shit. And the other 0.0001 percent just does this internet hobby for fun.

I am feeling the pull of that "you are a terrible person" strongly today. It is painful enough to let go of ever being loved, and realising that the majority of women only care to engage with men on their own terms. It's horrific that we would be condemned as evil for opting out of hurting people to, even if it meant sacrificing our own potential chance of happiness.

You feel that way because you’re obsessed with trying to define yourself by shit you read on the internet. At least obsess and idolize over something cool, like me. Try to be Archwinger. He’s a badass.

I suppose I am too beta to do anything but seek to empathise with the Dark Triads and sociopaths of this world. Whatever Laws of Power I use will likely be for my own defence. I am far from a nice guy, there is a side of me which for the better of all the world should never see […] But when given the choice between being the hunter or hunted, controller or controlled…why engage at all?

So like all humans, you’re capable of good and bad shit? Deep.

Can there be morality in the red pill reality? Is anything 'fair'? Is there any justice in the world? (lol Lemar) Must our response to unfairness be to take it out on others, quid pro quo? Is the only way to not be a loser, genetic waste, to be part of the cycle of suffering you all so gladly endorse?

A lot of philosophers did the leg work on this for you. But don’t read their work. You’ll just try to define your life by it instead of thinking constructively like a grown up.

ppdthrowawai · 2016-02-02T14:50:47+00:00

If you treat everything in your life as an absolute, you will follow these rigid rules to dark conclusions. It is true that most humans are fairly selfish whether they think they are or not, but that fact is not that important by itself. It is possible to treat others kindly while acknowledging that you can never fully trust anyone but yourself. Treating people with a certain benefit of the doubt can bring a lot of good to your life at minimal cost. Most people are just trying to get by in this world and don't think to hard about these kinds of things. Don't waste your precious energy getting caught in that trap of over analyzing. Just know that it is possible for you to live a life where you acknowledge a certain level of selfishness in humans without it ruining your ability to interact with them. In the end, nobody matters to you but yourself so don't let these insignificant details bog you down from living your life.

GaiusScaevolus · 2016-02-02T15:00:06+00:00

Of course there can. The part everyone seems to object to is that Red Pill gives you facts and let's you build your own ethics to determine how best to use that knowledge. Just because you know that doing A, B, & C will make you more likely to be successful with a girl doesn't mean you have to do it.

asdf_clash · 2016-02-02T15:16:28+00:00

Ethical redpill would just be the self-improvement part of redpill, right?

Make yourself the best you can be, given what you know about how the world works -- but manipulate no one.

Xemnas81 · 2016-02-02T17:32:23+00:00

You're looking at this the wrong way.

The Red Pill isn't concerned with ethics. Ethics are a function of the decisions of the man applying the concepts to his life.

You can do whatever you wish as long as

1) You're honest with yourself and others

2) You are honest about what you want and expect from others

3) You break no laws.

You do not have to be honest about everything you believe or feel. Being "honest" doesn't mean you tell everyone you're RedPill, or that you just want to fuck, or whatever. Being "honest" does not mean wearing your thoughts or feelings on your sleeve. Being "honest" just means you're true to yourself and you don't put up with shit from others; and you don't put up with shit just for the purpose of "being nice".

mrcs84usn · 2016-02-02T17:51:34+00:00

Why won't anyone let me go MGTOW without judgment?

The thing about MGTOW is that you shouldn't care about their judgment. If anything, you should take away their power and throw things back in their face.

"Can't get laid." Why do you care about my sex life? In fact, I'm a virgin that spanks it 3 times a day. So what? Fuck you!
"Parent's basement neckbeard." Damn right! I'm gonna go back to playing CoD, while I stroke my neckbeard with my Doritos-covered fingers.
"Don't you want something more for yourself? Women are awesome, and half the population." NO, I don't. Kthanx, bye.

(agree and amplify all day)

I listen a lot of more prominent MGTOW names on youtube. One of the things that I really appreciate about them is that they really drive home the idea that you don't need to justify yourself to other people, especially when those other people don't live your life for you, and quite frankly, could give two shits about you at the end of the day. Another thing that is mentioned is that MGTOW isn't a goal you achieve, but rather a process that you go through. (kind of like the 5 stages of grief).

RareBlur · 2016-02-02T13:02:30+00:00

You can just decide this for yourself. Don't let any pill or online analysis define you or other people at all. Unplug from it all.

What difference does it matter what anyone thinks or says about how you want to live your life? They aren't living it, you are.

The lessons you take from TRP that you think are good can stay but challenge the rest and remove the labels. Define your own color.

Start living life go talk to people and remove the expectations. Grow confidence in yourself because no one defines you or what you are worth except yourself. You are worthwhile and you have value.

[deleted] · Tue Feb 2 10:35:11 2016 UTC

[permanently deleted]

littleyellowpills · 2016-02-02T19:04:56+00:00

Can there be an ethical approach to the red pill?

My answer is no. I logic thusly:

I define "ethical behavior" as choosing your actions with equal weight given to the likely effects on others vs. yourself. Let me know if you have a different definition.
Displaying dark triad traits (narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy) is deeply embedded in RP canon. If you do not display dark triad traits, you are not following RP.
A callous disregard for the effects of your actions on others is an essential part of all three dark triad traits, but especially of psychopathy.
Ergo, you cannot ethically follow RP. QED.

Let me ask a much more useful question: Can a heterosexual man be sexually and reproductively successful while behaving ethically? Can he do this despite significant disadvantages in the SMP? The answer to this is yes! I personally know men of all major US racial groups who are short, fat, dumb, uneducated, poor, bald, skinny/gawky/nerdy (myself), or on the autism spectrum (you) and still have had girlfriends. The key is that ethical women will go to great lengths to seek out ethical men and avoid the unethical ones.

[deleted] · 2016-02-02T19:30:38+00:00

TRP does a great job analyzing the SMP and society as a whole. It looks at the dark side of our nature. Our base instincts and motivations. It primarily studies the dynamics of power between people.

But do you really think that's all there is to life and relationships? Do you really think we are as base as all the other animals? I certainly don't.

What has TRP taught you about trust in a relationship? What has it taught you about compromise, or sacrifice? I'm going to go out on a limb, and bet nothing at all.

TRP is a good framework to keep in the back of your mind, but that's as far as it goes. There's a lot more to life than attaining power and having decent morals is more important than you think.

midnightvulpine · 2016-02-02T11:40:55+00:00

Theoretically anything can be done ethically, but given that most TRP posters seem to believe that red pill is amoral, one wonders how ethical one can be before randoms start saying you're not actually red pill.

What I'm curious about is what code of honor you think society pushes on men. I've never felt a particular duty to women or children. There are certain things I think are good for people to do. Most of them towards children given that they kind of need the help, being immature and unprepared to be on their own. When it comes to women, most of what I believes applies to men as well in similar situations.

This feeling of enforced obligation fascinates me, but I don't recall ever having it laid out for me.

Honestly, don't look to either 'pill'. One is questionable in it's use, the other is satire. Neither is, in my view, a good foundation to build a life on. Most people figure out their own way because the only one who knows everything about you and how things go is you. And I'm sure I've said it before, you need to make sure you're good before worrying about other people.

JumboDumboh · 2016-02-02T10:38:18+00:00

the manosphere is as I see it in general a place where men go to explore what is bothering them then told that is beta and not to be beta. Then with a laundry list of stuff to focus on to prevent being beta.

The overwhelming focus is on self image, i.e. narcissism. This indicates that what is bothering them is a narcissistic injury of some sort that needs to be really explored to be able to integrate these injuries into ones life to be able to move past them.

Those injuries are a part of who one is and denying those parts of ones self keeps them as a constant nagging voice one must constantly try to disprove or feel gnawing at them.

Title	Can there be an ethical approach to the red pill?
Author	Xemnas81
Upvotes	8
Comments	111
Date	February 2, 2016 9:52 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/43tkv1/can_there_be_an_ethical_approach_to_the_red_pill/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/can-there-be-an-ethical-approach-to-the-red-pill.276518 https://theredarchive.com/post/276518

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