If a woman is too afraid to say or answer no to certain sexual contact/acts, should she be having sex?

gavinok · 2015-10-24T04:05:03+00:00

Similar to my other thread, but a different spin on it. Let's say a guy and a girl meet up on a dinner date, it goes really well, and they hit it off....

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However a grown woman who can't or won't ever say "no" when she means "no" probably shouldn't leave the house unless she is under the direct supervision of a responsible adult who can compensate for her disability. The same applies to any adult men with the same problem.

Yeah, and creeps shouldn't be trying to take advantage of them because of this, right?

That's broadly the line that the deliberately-offensive poster above is taking, minus the obvious hyperbole.

It's almost like you're saying we shouldn't sexually exploit the mentally ill. how SJW of you.

Can you and I debate the topic without that kind of language?

Ask Cis. As for me, I am on my super-duper best behaviour because I am trying to not get banned4lyfe here.

Perhaps you would like to make the case why a person who's unable to say "no" should be considered an independent adult?

I'm not going to make that case as a sweeping generality. This is a case by case issue. How come a person can't say "no" as opposed should we treat that person as less than human, and then what about the sex?

I also get the feeling, for whatever reason, that RP's are talking about 15-17 (and I'm being generous here) year olds when they concoct their thought experiments, so we're not really talking about adults to being with, are we?

Can we agree that we shouldn't be trying to take sexual advantage of this mental loophole in which a person can't say no, or would you argue against that?

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[–]vinegarbubblegumPurple Pill Man-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

if the person looks and sounds like a capable adult and is in public unsupervised, I'm not sure we can fairly punish a "creep" unless we can prove he knew the person did not have the mental power to consent.

so, you have the idea that a person who is mentally incapable of saying "no" is going to look and sound like a capable adult?

this is strange for me. this seems like something I would pick up on early, and I wouldn't immediately start thinking - or ever think - "how can I get this to sexually work in my favour."

I'm not sure we can fairly punish a "creep" unless we can prove he knew the person did not have the mental power to consent.

The creeps not going to be punished. I would think a person incapable of saying "no" who goes through with the act (has the act perpetrated on them?) is not going to report or do anything about it. Do they even know what happened? Can a person can't comprehend the idea of rape actually be raped? I would say yes.

this is the exact type of girl TRP seems to be looking for. Thing is, I think you're the worst kind of human for taking advantage of such people.

If you want to play the, "I didn't know this socially maladjusted person is mentally handicapped, officer, i swear, why aren't they locked up?" defence, I guess you can. we can go down that road.

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Well, we may be getting a bit off track here. If we say that we want the law to protect these alleged women who are too afraid to say "no" when they really want to say "no," then how far does society actually go in advancing this principle?

What about high-pressure salesmen who "won't take no for an answer"? What about fast-talking pitchmen, hucksters, and shysters who con people into signing contracts with all that fine print? Should adults be protected from them as well?

There are all kinds of creeps, con men, and hustlers out there. It's a rough world, but we walk a fine line in a so-called "free society" with a "free market." How far should the law go in protecting an individual from their ignorance and human weaknesses? Some people believe that the law has gone too far already, like with the war on drugs and other policies designed to protect people from themselves.

[–]vinegarbubblegumPurple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

If we say that we want the law to protect these alleged women who are too afraid to say "no"

I don't say I want the law to protect them. I am saying I want people to not take advantage of them. That we even need to consider having the law protect them tacitly admits they are a vulnerable group.

What about high-pressure salesmen who "won't take no for an answer"?

Is high-pressure salesmen now a euphemism for rapist? Because yeah, if you won't take no for an answer in the field of sex, that's what you are.

What about fast-talking pitchmen, hucksters, and shysters who con people into signing contracts with all that fine print? Should adults be protected from them as well?

How about just not be a shitty fast-talking huckster? Like, why do you want to be one of those?

How far should the law go in protecting an individual from their ignorance and human weaknesses?

Again, I don't even want the law involved. I want to make it so society doesn't have so many, as you put, shysters. We need to fix the shyster problem.

Some people believe that the law has gone too far already, like with the war on drugs and other policies designed to protect people from themselves.

"Some people believe...." where have I heard that one used as an argument? oh yeah, Fox News. Congrats?

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Some times words are used to offend someone on purpose.

I know that all to well. It's not debate, no matter how much you want to pretend it is. That is what Cis does.

Basically the point is if she does not have the wherewithal to say no to something then she should not be out in society.

Yeah, they actually did that in the past. It's very expensive, and the reality is, these people get abused by the system. Think insane asylums and places where "hysterical" women were sent. This is not a good alternative. It was tried. It was found to be abuse.

You can't just lock away the mentally ill and hope for the best. It's a horrible, horrible way to go about treating people.

I dont necessarily agree with that, I mean I would never get laid if this were the case, but that does not mean its wrong even if I disagree.

What?

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hahahahah wtf, /r/RedpillOrTaliban

there's nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable about having sex with someone on the first date. that's the point of having a first date: seeing if you're comfortable with each other. there are so many legitimate reasons to feel comfortable/uncomfortable about sex with someone.

its really fucking insane to have to explain that to someone.

which brings me to my next point: women are often afraid of saying no. she has no way of knowing if she's saying no to a violent asshole that thinks women shouldn't be allowed outside. what if he runs off and tells his friends that she's a prude? what if he is violent? RP like's to brush off this fear as feminist-hysteria, but its very legitimate.

a guys fear on a date is that he wont get laid, a woman's fear is that she'll be murdered

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If a 19-year-old is as mentally undeveloped as a 10-year-old and she cannot or will not respond appropriately to sexual situations, or her mental illness causes her to perceive threat where none exists, why should she have any more right to have sex than a 10-year-old?

The 10 year old isn't postpubescent, though.

Funnily I know a few guys who work with mentally handicapped people; and I know enough anecdotes of them regularly having sex (and necessitating the occasional abortion). In a way, I see "consent" laws for mentally handicapped a bit like those for adolescents: adolescents are allowed to have sex, since they're horny as well and it's better to establish a framework where they can live out their drives instead of forcing them to burry them. The caveat is that they can only do it with each other, since having sex with a legal adult carries the usual risk that comes with the power imbalance.

Pretty much the same might go for mentally handicapped folks, only harsher.

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Or she's a virgin and is terrified of having sex for the first time. Maybe she's scared this guy will leave her afterwards and she suddenly decides she doesn't like the idea of going all the way with him. Maybe she went with him only because her other friends all hooked up and she didn't want to leave the bar alone and look like she was the only unattractive one, but now regrets her decision. Maybe she thought having sex with a random guy would get her mind off an ex but once the act is about to be performed she realized she's not attracted to this guy and is disgusted at herself for initiating the situation. Maybe things started off great but once they got back to the guy's place he revealed he had a girlfriend and she wasn't even the only girl he planned to see that night.

And those are all off the top of my head. I'm assuming a woman could have many other reasons for not wanting to have sex with someone other than the fact she's mentally is or she's being threatened.

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Because even in kink the bottom has the RESPONSIBILITY to say stop or red or yellow or some thing when they want some thing to stop.

I DO NOT CONSENT TO YOUR NON CONSENT THEREFORE YOU NEED TO SPEAK THE FUCK UP.

this is common fucking sense. if someone can't handle the basic responsibility of being in charge of them selves and say stop,no,red,yellow ect then they should even come close to putting them selves in that position. sorry if you can say no in that scenarios then you cant say no in a lot scenarios in which case you need to be taken in under inloco parentus because clearly you cant handle your shit. we will dispatch an adult care giver to you location to ensure you do not endanger your self seeing as you can't be trusted to be responsible enough to do what fucking 2 year olds can do and say NO!

that is what you are say when you cay women can not say no to sex . you are saying there are less mature and responsible than a 2 year old who will say no to every thing.

So which is it: are women agents in society with the attendant responsibilities? or are the less mature than 2 year olds and cant be trusted to give consent even after giving all visible signs of consent?

which is it? can women say no or can't they.

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That's a way to square the feminist "yes means yes" position where all sex without a verbal "yes you may now fondle my left breast for seven seconds" is automatically sexual assault.

The new law would be: No person is legally able to consent to sex unless they have demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that they have the courage and presence of mind to clearly articulate a refusal to an unwanted sexual advance, and reliably turn down such advances with crystal-clear unambiguous verbal or body-language signals to the party making the advances.

They'd get their consent licenses from a three-person panel of judges who observe the candidate being propositioned and fondled sexually. Candidates will be judged on how rapidly and unambiguously they signal their consent or lack thereof to the other partner. Failure to give a clear, no-ambiguity signal to the partner means you fail the test and you are legally required to inform all adults whom you meet that it is a crime for anyone to have sex with you.

Until the candidate passes the test, all sex with the candidate is statutory rape.

/satire

[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In this scenario:

No she should be sexually active. If you fear saying no then you shouldn't be sexually active. Reasons why:

A) if she really think the guy she is blowing is the type of guy who would hurt her it shows she doesn't have good ability to read people character. yes i know some times people surprise you. but as general rule for every one don't go place you don't think you can trust being alone with.

B) I dont not consent to violating you consent. this is common phrase in the kink world, what it means is you better fucking speak up, this train has brakes but you have to used them and not expect the brakes to know when you want them to be used. If you can't be bother to articulate a no and assert you self, not only are you not ready for sex but you are not ready for life.

C) you have the guys dick in your mouth, you the one with power in this scenario. the top is always the person with power (the bottom has the control though).

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Not if she still retains the power to hit the other party with a rape accusation. So long as the law is clear that she cannot victimize the man in the OP with a false rape accusation, then let her continue having sex.

But if (as I currently understand the law to apply) she can claim rape and traumatize the man, then it is society's duty to prevent her from being able to get into a sexual situation. Permanent lifelong adult supervision, never allowed to be alone in a room with an adult who is not her official supervisor. Supervisor must wear body camera at all times to provide certainty that the supervisor is not abusing the patient.

Sex needs to be the exclusive privilege of adults who can and will say "no" when they mean "no", every single time.

Here's an analogy: if you are blind, you cannot fly a plane because people on the ground and in other planes need to be protected.

If you are unable to say "no", you cannot have sex because your potential partners need to be protected.

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There's nothing wrong with requiring sexual communication from the person with the best knowledge of the situation.

but there is something wrong with not caring about getting consent, yes?

Who knows BEST whether a person consents to sex? The person consenting or the person hoping for consent? The person who has the knowledge has the obligation to inform the person without the knowledge.

Don't RP people call this "hamstering?"

anyway, the person who gives (or doesn't) give consent knows best. It's not up to another person to determine if anyone gave them consent, because then rapists have a get out of jail free card.

"If you know of any reason why sex can't continue, speak without delay."

I'll actually try that one out next time. Because I am in a relationship, i think it'll work, you know, because of the whole history of two people having sex with each other over years thing...

You try it on a women you don't know, and let me know how that works...

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[–]vinegarbubblegumPurple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The point is it should be the law of the land, not for individuals to work out between themselves.

disagree.

you want the government in people's bedrooms if you believe this. I do not want that or think it is right. the power should be with the people to decide, and only if the people have been wronged (and feel wronged) should they have the power to bring the government into their lives.

i think, when it comes to consent and the bedroom (sex) that people should be able to work it out. and yet, i know that some people are monsters. it's because of the monsters that we need the law.

Mattress girl demonstrates that leaving it up to individuals doesn't work, because some individual adults want to behave like children and make stupid accusations against blameless people.

Look, mattress girl was an art experiment. she did not get published in a peer reviewed journal for what she did, she got headlines in media for pulling a stunt. art is what you make of it, and i agree, she made a joke out of rape. that does not mean we should take rape less seriously.

as per the actual issues of her sexual assault case, i have no comment. her art was shit.

[–]czerdec1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]vinegarbubblegumPurple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So you DON'T want the government to protect people with Down's syndrome from being victimized by sexual predators?

what does the government protecting the vulnerable have to do with wanting the government in people's bedrooms? I don't want the homeless to be preyed on either.

i do support a large and functioning government that provides legal recourse for the wronged (and protection for the vulnerable), but remind me, again, what does that have to do with wanting the government in people's bedrooms?

What exactly, does down syndrome have to do with anything here? stop being hysterical.

When people say "we don't want the government in people's bedrooms" it's obvious they are talking about fully capable autonomous independent adults.

Yes.

This discussion is not about them. It's about adults with a very dangerous mental disability who can't handle the ABC's of sexual communication.

And the RP is trying to make the argument that people who can't say no - or is it down syndrome people now? - should either be fair game or locked away so they don't end up accidentally falling into some RP guys dick and having to accuse him of rape afterward.

It's about adults with a very dangerous mental disability who can't handle the ABC's of sexual communication.

I would argue the RP can't handle the ABC's of sexual communication.

In fact it's not entirely fair to compare them to people with Down's syndrome because some of them are perfectly capable of saying "no" at the appropriate moment.

Then why did you make that comparison?

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do you agree with deadbeta that consent isn't important? debate me, please.

You are not really giving anything to debate. You are asking a question but I'll answer it.

You seem to have the opinion that consent can only be given verbally and the male has to get the females verbal permission for every act. I do not share this opinion.

Consent can be given verbally or physically. I have used the exact same tactic as described. I have whipped my dick out and said, time for you to suck this, or something similar many many times. Sometimes it works sometimes it does not. Consent is given when she does the act, its called an implied contract. Just like if i was an employer and told someone if you clean this daily then I will give you X money, when they agree its called an implied contract, even if they dont say yes verbally and just start doing the work instead.

[–]vinegarbubblegumPurple Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

You seem to have the opinion that consent can only be given verbally and the male has to get the females verbal permission for every act. I do not share this opinion.

we agree there. in all the sex i had, maybe 10 per cent of it was verbal consent. no rape charges against me, for whatever reason.

Consent can be given verbally or physically.

getting murky, but I'll follow.

I have whipped my dick out and said, time for you to suck this, or something similar many many times. Sometimes it works sometimes it does not.

That is fucking disgusting, man. Jesus christ. Really? You've really done this? Not in my drunkest stupor (and I have a drinking problem) have I resorted to such boorish advances. jesus man, i can only imagine the kind of girls this would actually work on.

In my mind you have without a doubt sexually assaulted the women who clearly said no. I can absolutely see why this behaviour would lead to rape accusations.

Consent is given when she does the act

Not even murky, we are now in a shit abyss.

So, suppose I force the act, and she has no choice but to "does the act," has she consented? Of course not, right?

Suppose, back to the OP. Suppose she can't say no, and you are quite literally taking advantage of that, is that wrong? Yes, very wrong.

Just like if i was an employer and told someone if you clean this daily then I will give you X money, when they agree its called an implied contract, even if they dont say yes verbally and just start doing the work instead.

not, not even touching that analogy. argue the merit of your position, or give it up.

[–]Nazrath2112Blood Splatter Red2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

That is fucking disgusting, man. Jesus christ. Really? You've really done this? Not in my drunkest stupor (and I have a drinking problem) have I resorted to such boorish advances. jesus man, i can only imagine the kind of girls this would actually work on.

Yes its repulsive! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t9heX0YE7M

This move works on all types, from the classy professional to the dirty 20 dollar whore. I was not even drunk or high at the time, completely sober.

In my mind you have without a doubt sexually assaulted the women who clearly said no. I can absolutely see why this behaviour would lead to rape accusations.

That is quite the leap there. Flashing is rape now? Lets turn this around. A dude is with a chick. They are making out. She removes her top, is that sexual assault?

So, suppose I force the act, and she has no choice but to "does the act," has she consented? Of course not, right? Suppose, back to the OP. Suppose she can't say no, and you are quite literally taking advantage of that, is that wrong? Yes, very wrong.

You will notice that I did not say anything about forcing the person, nor even saying that I would push their head down there. You are the one that is jumping to this being ok. If you have to force the woman then you are a terrible player but if you whip it out and she says yes even by not resisting then that is not rape. You seem to be confusing a make out session that leads to my pants coming off is the same as me walking up to some chick in the mall and whipping it out and telling her to suck it.

not, not even touching that analogy. argue the merit of your position, or give it up.

LOL sorry I am gonna do what I want and that might be to use analogys or to argue the merit of my position, thank you very much.

[–]vinegarbubblegumPurple Pill Man-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]Nazrath2112Blood Splatter Red3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]vinegarbubblegumPurple Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

So if a girl takes off her shirt and comes at me but I decline, have I been sexually assaulted?

if it happens in your fevered imagination, no, because this girl is not real, and you're simply praying for it to happen.

if it happens in real life, you might be dealing with a handicapped person. don't fuck them. be a man.

there's this thing called empathy where you ask yourself how someone else would feel about something before doing it, and then considering if you should actually do that something.

In this situation, you clearly want to get laid when this topless women comes at you, so no, you are not being sexually assaulted. you want this to happen.

With you whipping your dick out, we would have to know how the women your whipping it out to feels about what is happening, because there is no implication here that she actually wants to have sex with you. Should you simply whip your dick out and expose it because you think it will lead to sex without any thought as to what she might think, yes, you have just sexually assaulted someone.

right, RP's don't care about fee-fees, i forgot.

I just felt a little embarrassed for her.

Love those field reports where you guys always come out on top, keep writing them.

If TRP was loveable losers, i wouldn't be here, but they are humourless dickheads who always seem to come out on top, yet are eternally frustrated. not so loveable.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

With you whipping your dick out, we would have to know how the women your whipping it out to feels about what is happening, because there is no implication here that she actually wants to have sex with you. Should you simply whip your dick out and expose it because you think it will lead to sex without any thought as to what she might think, yes, you have just sexually assaulted someone.

You're making a shitload of assumptions. I can't speak for the guy who mentioned this, but I really doubt it was a nonsexual situation where he did that. Believe it or not, many women love to suck cock and some even love to be told what to do. And if you've kissing passionately, fingering her and playing with her tits, unzipping your pants and telling her to give you a BJ is not radical, especially if you've already had sex with her previously and know what she likes.

Love those field reports where you guys always come out on top, keep writing them.

It was an awful situation that got worse. This happened just two weeks ago. She is emotionally unstable because she'd just gone through a horrendous breakup and probably was looking for some validation.

Yesterday she tried to kill herself and is now in the hospital. I feel horrible for playing a role in that (though I don't know for sure if I did because I haven't been able to visit her in the psych ward).

That's not "coming out on top." That's just some fucked-up shit that happened. Go fuck yourself.

[–]czerdec0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]vinegarbubblegumPurple Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]vinegarbubblegumPurple Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]betterdeadthanbetaHeartless cynical bastard0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]vinegarbubblegumPurple Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]circlhat-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Yonderlander-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	If a woman is too afraid to say or answer no to certain sexual contact/acts, should she be having sex?
Author	gavinok
Upvotes	6
Comments	161
Date	October 24, 2015 4:05 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3pzt82/if_a_woman_is_too_afraid_to_say_or_answer_no_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/if-a-woman-is-too-afraid-to-say-or-answer-no-to.278872 https://theredarchive.com/post/278872

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