Men Not "Figuring It Out For Themselves"

Whisper · 2015-06-23T00:11:26+00:00

First they ignore you. (Red pill? What's that?)
Then they laugh at you. (Look at those bitter virgin neckbeards.)
Then they hate you. (OMG misogyny!)
Then they fight you. (Women are individuals! Treat them like people! Your tricks don't work!)
Then you win. (Hey, look, it does work.)
Then they pretend it was their idea all along. (Why are you so angry? It took you this long to figure out that women like muscles and cockiness? What are you... stupid?)

buttlollipop · 2015-06-19T21:46:52+00:00

Oh, hello friend! Since you and I already went into this super in-depth on the other thread, this is basically everything I said before, and mostly just meant for other people on this thread. Feel free to ignore, it would be redundant for you.

I agree with the timeline outlined above. What I don't agree with is that it's that different for girls. We aren't given a no-nonsense crash course in dating, we're told the same pedantic BS. There seems to be some reason why girls figure out the charade earlier than boys do, but growing up as a pretty awkward girl, nobody ever told me that boys weren't into me because I was awkward-looking. Literally nobody even suggested it, when it was obviously the #1 reason. I was told the following:

"Boys are just threatened by your intelligence. Just work on YOURSELF and be SMART and boys will come around."
"Any boy who wants you to be prettier is a jerk and isn't worth your time."
"That girl only gets the boys because she's a stuck up bimbo and they're threatened by girls with character."
"Never change your clothes/hair/looks for a man! It will only attract the jerks who are shallow."
"Boys just don't like you because they know you're better than them!" (??)
"Once you get to college then TONS of boys will like you because you'll be around like-minded THINKING MEN." (aka- you ugly!)

etc, etc. My mom even told me that men hated women who were dressed-up and feminine because they looked like they'd break a nail in a game of touch football (lol ok mom).

I guess the only difference is that for one reason or another, I discovered this was total BS before I was even thirteen. It seems the same is true for a lot of other girls. There could be a myriad of reasons why, but I definitely can't imagine growing up for 20+ years having absolutely no clue that attractive people have physical preferences for other attractive people. From day 1, it seemed obvious despite what anyone told me. I was confused about the conflicting messages for a few years, but I figured it out.

Lonny_zone · 2015-06-21T03:59:03+00:00

Never seen feminists respond with the "DUH! Why wasn't it obvious women want masculine men with yadda yadda"...they more often respond with "You aren't entitled to sex and love!" before hitting enter on a "Where Have All The Good Men^TM Gone" article, posted from their bubble of solipsism.

I think the common knowledge from the clueless gets passed down and repeated ad nauseum, and many pass this advice down because most people struggling in the SMP are unattractive, and people prefer telling soft and warm lies before exposing cold, hard truth.

SirNemesis · 2015-06-20T00:07:42+00:00

My parents were clueless (raised me for the asian arranged marriage SMP). It was obvious to me they didn't know anything about the American SMP so I didn't take their advice too seriously. However, my only resources for learning how to navigate the SMP were my peers (fellow STEM students who were just as clueless as me, as well as christian students who were lied to as you have described), and the internet. The latter of course was full of outright lies, propaganda, and misinformation from leftist sources, at least until someone at a forum linked Heartiste and I stumbled across the Red Pill which actually explained everything I was observing in the SMP.

ProtoPill · 2015-06-19T23:06:58+00:00

Did other boys have this experience growing up?

I did not have such an experience.

Was this a function of growing up in the 1970s and 1980s? Having religious parents? Clueless parents? Ignorant parents? Absent parents?

The real reason that things like this happen is simple: poor and unbalanced parenting. I know, accusing a parent of mediocrity is tantamount to treason, but if the real answer is what you want, I will provide it.

As I have described before, I grew up in a loving two-parent home. My mother is a very kind, caring, nurturing woman. She gave her children the world, and we thrived in it. If she had continued to dominate us with solely feminine energy, I may have ended up like many of these men, as a NiceGuy. But there was a counterbalance to her energy--the masculine energy of my father. He was firm, but fair. He taught me all the things a young boy loves to learn, like how to change the oil in a car, how to hunt and fish, how to speak and shake hands with older men, how to dress, and how to present myself. He cursed, once in a blue moon, to desensitize me to the way men speak. He pointed out beautiful women on the street and asked me what I thought about her. He used questions to get to me to think. He would ask me what I would say to her, and if I said something stupid (NiceGuy speak), he would correct me.

I firmly believe, and I have seen it with my own eyes, not only with my development, but with my children's, that a balanced household, with both feminine love and masculine presence are key to raising a well-balanced child.

UyhAEqbnp · 2015-06-20T06:15:44+00:00

I never heard any complaining about this nice guys business until the internet came along. Women or authority figures gave no dating advice one way or the other at all

myfatbrokethewall · 2015-06-20T10:10:30+00:00

Moms, dads, teachers, pastors, Sunday School teachers, and other authority figures in a boy’s life carefully and methodically teach him to be “Nice”. Deferential, obsequious, fawning, pedestalizing, supplicating.

(Is this in the context of being sexually/romantically successful with girls? I'm going to assume so given that your next point mentions being rejected.)

Is this actually true regarding how boys are taught to treat girls? I can well believe that boys are told to be nice to girls, but being nice doesn't have to mean "Deferential, obsequious, fawning, pedestalizing, supplicating", it could just mean being a decent person, and I don't think that being masculine is in conflict with treating your woman well.

Boy tells authority figures what he has seen. He wonders if he has not been told the truth; or if there is something he has missed.

I wonder how the boy expresses this. I doubt he tells these authority figures something along the lines of what's in the post you linked:

Girls are NOT attracted to NiceGuys. Girls are attracted to masculine men.

More likely he starts talking about how "girls like jerks" or "girls like assholes", and people start telling him that no girls don't like jerks and assholes but want nice guys. If he said that girls don't want capital N "NiceGuys" but rather masculine men, people probably would not react the way you described in your "a." and "b." (assuming they ever react along those lines), if anything, I daresay they would be more likely to agree than not. If anything, it might make them think.

Saying something like "girls like jerks" or "girls like assholes" might make people think about how jerks and assholes aren't nice people, that women don't want to be treated poorly, and so in return they are going to respond that actually women want to be treated well and therefore they like nice guys.

For that matter, why has "nice" come to be capitalized and mean something different than nice?

I don't think masculinity is generally seen as a bad thing by people, and I don't think people think masculine men don't treat their women well. If anything (and with the caveat that I'm a woman and not a man, much less a masculine man), I'd say that (among other things) masculinity is associated with providing for one's family and with being willing to fight to protect one's family. It's also associated with being strong, taking initiative, perhaps with leadership. I would imagine that people generally respect masculinity, and if you told people that women like masculine men, I would think that most of them would agree.

I very much like masculinity, and I think being treated well is also important to me. I'd say that I want my man to completely take care of me and take away my worries. I'd say that I want to feel like if there is some problem that I can tell my man about it and that he will fix it. I want my man to make me feel safe. I'd say that this way of treating a woman well is protector and provider stuff and is masculine, no?

Later, when the boy becomes a man and after a failed marriage or learning the truth about intersexual relationships and how attraction works, he brings up this dynamic. The response from feminists and their traditional conservative allies usually is something like this:

“Well, DUH! All you had to do was look around you. All you had to do was see what was working for other boys and men, and emulate that. Why couldn’t you see what was so clearly going on all around you? Why couldn’t you figure out what was attractive and what wasn’t? Why couldn’t you just be masculine? Why didn’t you ignore what those authority figures were telling you? It’s your own fault for listening to people who clearly didn’t know what they were talking about.”

I think the "Well, DUH!" tends to happen in response to some obvious RP stuff like getting in shape, being reasonably successful professionally, and having hobbies. Having a good body, being successful, and being interesting is generally more attractive than not being those things, duh. I mean, isn't it obvious?

There is non-obvious RP stuff like dread game, perhaps passing shit tests and the like.

Some of what being masculine is might be less obvious as well. Presumably masculine men know? I mean I don't know if I have the right view of what "masculinity" is, I'm not a masculine man, or a man at all for that matter.

And by the way, the general advice to look at what's working for successful people and emulating that is not bad. Observing what type of males (including fictional males) women are really into might well be helpful in attracting women. Observing people in long-lasting, successful marriages (and perhaps asking them how to have a long-lasting, successful marriage) might be helpful if a long-lasting, successful marriage is your goal.

It might also be good advice to be skeptical of what people (including me :)) say on the internet. You don't know who might be giving you relationship advice. It might be someone who is successful and knows what they're talking about, but it might be someone who isn't successful and/or doesn't know what they're talking about.

circlhat · 2015-06-20T22:04:25+00:00

Boy tells authority figures what he has seen. He wonders if he has not been told the truth; or if there is something he has missed.

This this this, all guys will figure out but the latest authority figures though a new curve ball

"You aren't really nice if you want something in return"

That is the most retarded statement ever created

Or

"You are just being nice to get sex"

It took me years to stop being nice, I wasn't faking anything, I actually felt guilty if I didn't go out of my way to help people , just because I wanted someone to love me doesn't mean I'm fake.

On some level I knew TRP but my parents who I trusted and my church who I adored kept leading me down this path of the submissive husband

Pleb-Tier_Basic · 2015-06-20T17:09:13+00:00

The epitome of the masculine character is confidence. To know yourself, know what you want, and be willing and able to act in a way that achieves what you want. Being a nice guy, being an asshole, neither helps you; they simply streamline you towards different people. It's confidence, more than any other trait, that helps a man come off as attractive.

'Emulating' those around you is the exact opposite of confidence. You no longer know yourself, but rather, construct yourself based on a (distorted) image of what you think others are. If you don't know yourself, you wont know what you want, and you wont be able to achieve something you don't know you want.

It's true that being 'nice' is bad advice. It's false that the better alternative is to observe and emulate your peers. Be yourself, cliche as it is, is the only solution that will work consistently.

Did other boys have this experience growing up? Did other boys receive the messages set out above?

Yes

Were you encouraged to ignore what was going on around you?

Yes, but not in the way that I think you mean. I wasn't told to ignore what I was seeing others do; I was told to do what I believed was right and to be myself

Were you gaslighted; told that you weren't really seeing what you were clearly seeing?

No. Also, side note, something I have come to realize is that teenagers are fucking stupid. These grand revelations we're 'clearly seeing' are usually not that grand, nor are they that deep. Building a worldview off them is a bad idea. I'm not saying gaslight, but I am saying take highschool with salt.

Do you think that such boys should have ignored what their elders were telling them and simply rebelled?

Rebelled how? I do think that it is important for children to rebel. What they're rebelling against though, and how, is more important.

And, when you finally discover it because you found TRP or the manosphere or some other source that laid it all out for you, did others look askance at you as if you had an arm growing out of your forehead? Did they denigrate and lambaste you because, allegedly, this information about women is so GLARINGLY obvious as to render you a moron for having to have it explained to you?

Nope. I just got sick of getting fucked around, met a girl, got to know her, realized I liked her, told her so, and that was that. We dated for a while then broke up and life went on.

You don't need to be nice 100% of the time, or to 100% of people. But you also don't need an ideology and method to meet girls. Know yourself, know what you want. Thats all there really is, the rest is just dressing

LinaIG · 2015-06-21T23:35:47+00:00

No. Nothing to do with it. There's no such thing as masculine behavior. When a woman is attracted to a man she doesn't think to herself '' oh this guy is acting like a 12th century crusader, how manly, I'm getting so turned on.''

Women are attracted to looks. I have friends who are very friendlly to everyone, barely raise their voices above the sound of a whisper, aren't socially aggressive and they don't pursue women. Women pursue them. Some of these guys are actually shy.

I've seen guys and I've had guys as friends who went after women, lifted hard, had the whole Alpha male body posture and body language nonsense and they had very little to no success with women.

Nice guys get laid. All the time. Good-looking nice guys. The only information about women that men are lacking consists of the following:

1) Women aren't sexually attracted to social status. Yes, they date and marry average men but they do it for the money or because the men they want don't want them back.

2) Women are only attracted to looks and height. If you are average-height and with an average face and body(not fat, not bald) you are invisible, and if you are short and what not, women openly despise you.

3) Women don't care about money when they are in their 20s. They're only interested in hot, tall men. From the below-average girl to the above average girl, and as they enter their 30s they marry men for their money.

''Everybody seems to be OK with it. Why not improve yourself instead of demanding that others treat you as though you already had high value?''

Because I'm not fat? I have a slim figure. Most of the men I see with women are as slim as I am or more. The difference between them and I is that they're tall, like 6'2'' or taller and I'm on the shorter side. Facewise we are about the same, although I look more masculine. Women don't want fat men but most women are indifferent to muscled men. i have several friends who are professional body-builders and dude, the only likes they get on facebook are from men who are also body-builders.. and when we are outside, these guys don't get approached or noticed by women, and its not like they have an ugly face.

BeautyinNothing · 2015-06-22T11:11:57+00:00

The womens are the more socially aware sex. I can see how men confused that with fairer

gianttribble · 2015-06-24T18:48:00+00:00

Men - as well as women - are definitely shamed for not figuring it out for themselves. Especially when you are a boy or girl who cannot read non verbal social cues.

I was dissed for being fat sure but nobody told me why I had to shave my facial hair or be emotionally perceptive. As for the latter, I had to read red pill men and women blogs, psychology etc to figure it out.

taiboworks · 2015-06-19T21:58:04+00:00

Moms, dads, teachers, pastors, Sunday School teachers, and other authority figures in a boy’s life carefully and methodically teach him to be “Nice”. Deferential, obsequious, fawning, pedestalizing, supplicating.

so red pillers, how many of you does this describe? were you taught to be this way towards all women? just women you like? or to all men and all women? because it seems like red pillers tend to be 'difficult/disagreeable' personalities compared to the average. so while i can imagine red pillers might have been nice to a few girls they liked (and got overly angry/pissed/bitter when their attentions were not reciprocated and thus found a hate/angry group like red pill attractive), i have trouble believing the average red piller was ever nice to most women, or people in general, or at least was ever genuinely nice, i.e. it was all an act/front to get something they desired.

Title	Men Not "Figuring It Out For Themselves"
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	20
Comments	154
Date	June 19, 2015 9:41 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3ag5kl/men_not_figuring_it_out_for_themselves/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/men-not-figuring-it-out-for-themselves.281511 https://theredarchive.com/post/281511

Comments