CMV - Women have an extremely high bar to even consider men passable or average, and only find truly elite men to be "hot" or remarkable

saltinado · 2015-03-10T01:18:26+00:00

I dunno, guys tend to get more attractive to me physically after I get to know them and I like their personality.

cxj · 2015-03-10T00:53:28+00:00

Yeah, I'd agree that women have higher standards than men do. Women typically require that a guy has a shit together whereas men are just looking to fuck something that looks pretty. I mean, look at the language you use:

when I fuck 5s and 6s out of necessity, it makes me kind of hate everyone and everything. Sure, it's better than no sex, but it's not like that's what anyone actually wants. It's frustrating and makes me resent myself as well as the girl.

You're treating the chick you're fucking like sleeping on an uncomfortable futon. You act entitled to higher quality chicks and treat what you have as "paltry scraps".

if she wants to get married, she will in all likelihood settle. Not get what she wants. Which means that her husband probably cares more about her than she does about him, the sex will be infrequent and boring, and overall, she will be unhappy and resentful on some level for the dregs she managed to lock down.

That's a whole lot of assumptions and leaps in logic. Honestly, your whole post really seems very limited in perspective. You're trying to extrapolate your experiences to everyone else.

"so what if she's been with someone hotter?" responses. So what? So his most important relationship in his life is a sham

Just because you've fucked someone hotter previously doesn't make your current relationship a "sham". Looks aren't everything. Again, you're only talking from your perspective since you quantify value in attractiveness.

OfSpock · 2015-03-10T03:53:10+00:00

How would you rate yourself? Because if you don't rate yourself at least an 8/10, why would you expect to be able to find someone who is an 8/10? What percentage of women do you consider to be hot? Is it greater than 20%? If not, how are you different from TRPs 80/20 rule?

Despite what TRP says, a lot of women don't participate in the ONS part of dating. I believe someone was quoting a study that said very attractive women are less likely to than average but studies also show that 50% of women have never had a ONS. And of those who have, I'm sure a lot of them were with guys they already knew rather than a complete stranger, so personality came into it. There are simply more men looking for casual sex.

For those that do, why wouldn't looks be the main determinator of who you would choose. Wouldn't it be for you? If you were able to choose between a girl who is 9/10 or one who is 7/10 for a ONS, who would you choose?

exit_sandman · 2015-03-10T02:00:29+00:00

OP, the shortest and most succinct reply to this post is:

"You need to accept the fact that the way you view the world and other people and relationships is not the way other people view it/those things."

Now, what do I mean by that? You are making an absolute shit-ton of assumptions here, about other human beings, and it doesn't seem to be based in any kind of reality.

First of all, that OKCupid study needs to stop being cited by either side right now. It isn't scientifically valid. There were consequences to women rating men highly (someone covered this below so I won't repeat it).

they'll inevitably settle for a guy they consider below average, inferior really

This is not a fact. Do not state this as if it is. Will SOME women, who crave marriage and stability, settle down with men they are not sexually attracted to? Yes. I know RP has a bee in its bonnet about this but I just don't accept that this is some kind of major thing that's actually happening. Women in the west today have less incentive than ever to get married. They don't need to marry to support themselves or to have babies. There is very little reason for anyone to settle with someone who grosses them out. Plus, I have to say, if you're proposing marriage to someone I'm going to assume you've been with them for a year+ at least and by that point, most people are going to have a pretty good idea of how sexually attracted their partner is to them. Barring sociopathy and Oscar-level acting skills, there'll be clues that s/he is not that into you (in bed). And don't quote divorce stats at me in response to this - there is no reliable data on WHY a given woman initiates a divorce and "because she's not into his D" has to be one of the most egregious projections of male thinking I have ever seen.

when I fuck 5s and 6s out of necessity, it makes me kind of hate everyone and everything. Sure, it's better than no sex, but it's not like that's what anyone actually wants. It's frustrating and makes me resent myself as well as the girl. Though it's through no fault of hers, of course, she's still a prime piece of evidence that I'm getting the paltry scraps of what I actually want in life.

This is very telling. This is also a description of your internal state/feelings. You're afraid of being thought of as unattractive and borderline embarrassing because that's how YOU see a lot of the sex you've had. You're projecting how you feel onto other people.

her husband probably cares more about her than she does about him, the sex will be infrequent and boring, and overall, she will be unhappy and resentful on some level for the dregs she managed to lock down.

See my comment above. You literally just described your own feelings here, the ones in the comment above this one, except this time those feelings are being put into the head of a woman.

That feeling I get with most of my underwhelming notches extended throughout a lifetime commitment sounds like hell. I wouldn't be okay being the object of such frustration and negativity, especially from someone who is supposed to be my life partner.

Don't marry. That is how you avoid a lifetime commitment to someone you are not attracted to or who is not attracted to you.

Do you know why hot women can fuck whoever they want? Because dudes like you only care about fucking hot women. It's not some inborn superpower that hot women have. Shit only sells when people want to buy. I make no moral judgement of you here, either, you want what you want. Most women care about more than looks. Hell, most MEN care about more than looks but I do think there are more men like you than women like you, if that makes sense.

I don't think everything is as doom and gloom as you're saying it is for you. Don't marry. Throw yourself into PUA and Red Pill. Fucking young, hot women is an achievable goal. You're going to have to work for it at the gym and the job and the mental discipline, but it's totally doable. There is no more easy-to-fuck group of women than the 18-24 yr olds, imo. And to avoid the lifetime of bad sex with fuggos or being resented for being a fuggo, avoid marriage.

You are one kind of person. There are many kinds of people. Keep that in mind.

cocoguard · 2015-03-10T19:38:01+00:00

Imagine someone describing the "average student": maybe gets B's and plays a sport, maybe one other activity. This idea of your average joe is higher than the real average which is pulled down by (in the school example) druggie losers with 1.0s. It's not impossible standards, it's a common way of describing things.

WhosCountin · 2015-03-10T13:32:08+00:00

Well, when I fuck 5s and 6s out of necessity, it makes me kind of hate everyone and everything.

And why do they fuck you? Are they just looking for sex or a relationship?

RP theory is that women want a relationship with men at a higher level than they are. If you're not giving them that, then do they have a right to hate everyone and everything too?

rulenumber303 · 2015-03-10T11:01:56+00:00

Well, when I fuck 5s and 6s out of necessity, it makes me kind of hate everyone and everything.

Sounds like narcissistic rage to me.

ReddishBlack · 2015-03-10T03:41:20+00:00

I think it's hilarious that people chase 8/10 women, then begrudge them for only being attracted to the top 20% of men. Do the math there boys.

cxj · 2015-03-10T03:00:47+00:00

I agree that women have higher standards than men, generally speaking. In first world, Western countries, I'd also agree that women have a skewed sense of average, which is particularly egregious in certain demographics (middle/upper middle class college educated).

HOWEVER: I believe this is way trickier than you are making it out to be, and actually leads to a post I've been wanting to make for a while, which is regarding physical attractiveness in women. Basically, I genuinely think that since girls attractiveness is so heavily based on physical appearance and youth, that basically any non fat girl in her 20s is actually pretty attractive. When most guys rate a girl as a 5, they mean that she is average looking for a girl in her 20s. They aren't considering the entirety of women, inculding old grandmas, 45 year olds, post wall, etc. THIS IS A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WOMEN. When you consider all these women, the average (5) 20 year old is more like a 7-8.

My point here is that men also have a heavily skewed sense of average. They are much more prone to settling because of the way the male sex drive works.

taiboworks · 2015-03-10T01:01:02+00:00

that okcupid data is worthless because if you rated someone a four or a five on okcupid it sent them a message that you were interested so women generally avoided rating men 4 or 5 because they don't like to initiate generally. here's hotornot rating data (without that issue) and men actually have a higher attractiveness average than women - https://math.dartmouth.edu/archive/m50w06/public_html/m50_Chetan_Seth.pdf which would suggest women actually rate men as more attractive on average than men rate women (the study does not separate for gender in who voted so there is no way to be certain, but it is safe to assume most women were rating men, and most men were rating women).

as to the gay women/men argument skewing hotornot data. less than 5 percent of the population is gay - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States

myfatbrokethewall · 2015-03-10T02:04:32+00:00

But to get back to the point I want challenged: women have a warped perception of "average".

Seems like the main evidence for this is the OkCupid source. Well, how about this:

1. Our perception of what is average is influenced by the (arguably well above average) people we see in the media. Arguably this is more true for people who socialize less in real life and so see fewer "real life" people (this could be more likely to be true of OkCupid users than the general population).

2. Women are better than men at taking pictures of themselves that make them look more attractive than they really are (makeup, flattering angles, lighting, Photoshop, etc.). I don't know if this is true or not, and if it's not true then this argument falls apart.

Anyway, if 1. and 2. above are true, then it may just be that both men and women have a warped perception of what "average" is, but women are simply better at presenting themselves in pictures than men are.

Another consideration is how ratings on OkCupid work. Did OkCupid select users at random and have them rate other users (also selected at random)? Does OkCupid have a built-in rating system and did whoever did the analysis just use the existing ratings? I don't know how they got the data and I don't feel like carefully reading the source (so maybe it's there and I missed it), but say hypothetically that:

1. They used ratings from a built-in rating system, and so the ratings were obtained from people's normal use of OkCupid. (I don't know if this is true or not.)

2. Men are more likely to search for women than women are to search for men. I don't know if this is true.

3. Men are more likely to message women than women are to message men. I expect this is true.

This all hinges on 1., but if true then in this scenario men might simply run into fewer "below average" women in their normal use of OkCupid than the reverse by say not clicking on their profiles during their searches and not rating them, or by using whatever filters OkCupid has available to try to get the most attractive matches (my understanding of how OkCupid works/worked when the data was collected is limited). Also, in this scenario, men would be less likely to get messaged by "below average" women than the reverse. On the other hand, women might be getting exposed to more "below average" men via getting messages from them and clicking on their profiles.

Also, to quote from the OkCupid source: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/

Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.

On the other hand:

As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable.

So it could also be that men are more likely to get rated by the best looking women, who might be pickier due to the number of messages they get. If men's messaging patterns were more like women's, might they get better ratings from the women they messaged? Might a woman who gets messaged less give better ratings to men who message her? Might an average woman give an average man a better rating than an attractive woman would? (This argument depends on the ratings being obtained from people's normal use of OkCupid.)

Carkudo · 2015-03-10T01:27:21+00:00

While I agree with your assertion, OP, there's one much more pressing issue here. That issue is you needing to chill out, man.

Title	CMV - Women have an extremely high bar to even consider men passable or average, and only find truly elite men to be "hot" or remarkable
Author	WhosCountin
Upvotes	10
Comments	171
Date	March 10, 2015 12:33 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2yi6u5/cmv_women_have_an_extremely_high_bar_to_even/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-women-have-an-extremely-high-bar-to-even.283166 https://theredarchive.com/post/283166

Comments