Why are so many people reluctant to say that there are certain traits most men/women find attractive?

drok007 · 2014-11-17T19:32:51+00:00

That person also said they downvote anything heteronormative. Isn't heteronormativity reality? Aren't most people simply straight?

fiat_lux_ · 2014-11-17T19:12:37+00:00

Three common reasons why there's debate on this matter:

1) It's depressing to talk about people's shortcomings, and a lot of people don't know how to handle it.

Pardon my example, but let's use you for example. Women generally don't have beards on their necks. It's an extremely aberrant trait. But who knows, you might be proud of your neckbeard (proud enough to label yourself a "female neckbeard", even), and have some sort of child-like innocence about you that is difficult for some people to work with. Telling you that a neckbeard on a woman is repulsive or at least offputting to a majority of people might be like... telling a kid that Santa doesn't exist. (What kind of asshole would do such a thing?)

What?! Why would people dislike me for the beard on my neck?! I thought it made me unique... <:-(

And I would offer you my sympathies in person. "Nah, don't mind them. I like your neckbeard. Plus, you're a very fair and awesome individual", and then we would pat each others' backs.

It's a matter of compulsive empathy. Those with higher compulsive empathy score higher on EQ (and to do that, you are willing to do stuff like lie to make others feel better).

2) They like to drag the argument back into a nature vs nurture, because that's where there's more uncertainty. Because the brain is still being mapped out, they'll always have some argument about whether society is guiding people towards certain preferences, and they're not even wrong in many cases.

That still ignores the fact that indeed certain traits are preferred more often.

3) They often have a bad understanding of market concepts like "market value". I've been suckered into more than one argument about "universal standards". Don't fall victim to it yourself. "Universal standards" are irrelevant to the market. Everyone has their own idea of what makes a great leader, but in the end one person is elected President. One person ends up with the least votes (even if you or I completely support that person).

[deleted] · 2014-11-17T20:41:21+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Reginleifer · 2014-11-17T19:22:19+00:00

Special snowflake syndrome?

People as a whole don't like being thought of as anything other than wonderful individuals. If you tell them that their outfit is the product of mass corporate marketing and that right now there's 100k other girls wearing the same outfit, they're going to be offended.

You tell a woman or a man, that subconsciously they play dress up in an almost animal-like attempt to signal status and desirability then they're going to be offended, and most likely tell you that they LIKE wearing carcinogens on their face, back pain inducing 6 inch heels, or stuffy suits, because that is what they feel most comfortable in.

It's not that different from the negative reaction Blue Pill has to Red Pill truths. This is evident with the constant posts we get here from them:

"I'm in a wonderful relationship with a beta"

I'm a transexual furry, bet you can't explain me, hhmmmmmmmm Red Pill?"

"All the people I know are in wonderful feminist relationships"

There's really nothing you can do about those people though. This seems to be our nature.

SirNemesis · 2014-11-17T22:39:44+00:00

Liberal arts people like to see everything as unique. They have an aversion towards generalizations. That's why they're no good at science, let alone engineering.

JP_Whoregan · 2014-11-18T01:56:11+00:00

Because today's generation of kids have egos that are so fragile, that any idea that they aren't special little unique snowflakes is terrifying to them. To suggest that they are a part of a larger collective with traits defined by eons of evolution.

When I wanna fuck with these kids I remind them: Even if you really, truly are "one in a million", remember that, with 6-billion people on the planet, that means there are 6,000 people on the planet that are just. like. YOU.

[deleted] · 2014-11-17T20:31:08+00:00

[permanently deleted]

TheScamr · 2014-11-17T19:47:04+00:00

Askwomen is a place where many of the users, men and women, go to surround themselves with comfortable groupthink. They like to think that men and women are are not that different from each other but at the same time each individual is different.

So they don't like the notion that they may all find someone generally attractive. Philosophically they thinks humans should be able to move past such shallowness by almost force of will.

If they admit basic human attraction then they have to shift the blame of the pressure to conform to societies definitions of attraction and admit there are basic things people look for in a mate, such as physical health.

And they also have to admit they are, on some levels, as primal in their attractions as men are. They want to believe the sexes are more alike than different, but the caulk up primal attractions as being from the Patriarchy, and they do not want to believe they are doing anything that would support that. If you work with women you will hear them faun over actors and singers they have never met. So all the excuses over wanting someone who is caring or can hold a conversation is a shallow lie. They want (or at least would prefer) someone cute or hansom that can hold a conversation or is caring.

When I am on Askwomen I look at the downvote to comment ratio. I got a hail of downvotes for boys and girls are different you can see that by the ways they play on recess. Boys take up a lot of space usually doing more team sports and girls are more likely to break into small groups or pairs and talk.

Almost no rebuttals other than downvotes. I had one comment in support that said they must have not ever gone back to school as a mother or volunteer to see how kids play.

The groupthink and desire to be the same as men is so strong they ignore basic general differences in the sexes, that begin at a very young age.

fizolof · 2014-11-17T19:39:13+00:00

If generalizations are bad, then why does a subreddit like "AskWomen" exist? After all it's useless, since women aren't a collective, just a set of individual people, right?

I think it's just "political correctness gone mad". I've noticed that while you can't generalize when talking seriously, you can disguise generalizations as comedy. For example, when watching HIMYM, you can hear things like "women after 30 don't joke about commitment" (indication of the wall). Deep down, movies are often RP.

ExpendableOne · 2014-11-17T22:21:22+00:00

There's a few nuances here that differentiate these two issues though. I mean, women judge men on their weight too but the way women judge height on men is a whole other problem in of it's own.

For one, height is not something that a guy can change. Women who are overweight, choose to be overweight. I don't care your excuse is, how big boned you think you are or how bad of a glandular problem you think you might have. The fact is, if you are overweight, you choose to be overweight. Weight doesn't just happen. You have to eat to consume calories. If you choose to consume more than you burn, and choose not to exercise, that will impact your weight. The more food you eat, the more weight you gain. A guy can't work out or stretch his legs to get taller. There is no magic pill or easy surgery to get taller.

Secondly, height doesn't actually affect anything within the relationship. Weight affects a lot of things. It affects what sports and activities the two of you can do together. It affect health, body odor and skin condition. It affects how sex will work and feel. It affects how much you spend on food/cloths. It affects your capabilities as an individual and as a partner. Height, on the other hand, does not actually affect anything. Sex is the same. Activities are the same. Sports are the same(except maybe basketball... but that's not exactly the type of sport you play with an SO). Everything is the same. The only thing that changes, is how people look at you based on their own preconceptions, and your relationship is none of their business anyway. You can be taller than your boyfriend if you want. You don't have to base your wardrobe off of who you're dating. Just wear what you like and accept the height difference.

Thirdly, women tend to be especially brutal about height. It's not just a personal preference to them. Often it becomes the entire measure of a man's worth to them, and feel justified in completely belittling, harassing or discriminating against short men. Men can be pretty brutal to fat women too but they still make an bigger effort to treat them like people than women tend to do towards short men.

Fourthly, weight actually does affect the way the body looks. The shape of it, and fitness level, is directly proportional to weight. Someone who is overweight has no real definition, curves or style. It's just round and flabby, and that's just unattractive to most people for either gender. Most people prefer to see women with tight bodies. They love firm breasts that pop out. Most men love accentuate sexual traits in women. Height, on the other hand, doesn't affect any of this. A short guy can still be fit/muscular. A short guy can still have a big dick.

Finally, women's obsession with height stems from really just one thing. Gender roles. It stems from this notion that men must be taller than women, therefore any coupling where a man is shorter than the woman is unnatural. This is wrong. It is sexist. It is just as backwards and bigoted than thinking that a black person having sex with a white person is unnatural. Men don't need to be taller and women shouldn't be perpetuating toxic gender roles/expectations anymore(especially given the amount of work that went into eliminating women from having to conform to gender roles/expectations placed on women).

ThorLives · 2014-11-17T23:27:40+00:00

Because:

People don't ever want to make anyone feel bad, especially about things they can't change.
People like to believe that the world works in a way they wish it worked. (Wishful thinking)
It has the side-effect of improving people's confidence and (in the moment) happiness. Confidence is attractive, but it's not the only thing.

The downside of this is that it misinforms people about working on themselves. ("Hey, you're great just the way you are!") It effectively deprives them of the knowledge they need to make the changes that would make them more attractive (e.g. lose weight and get in shape at the gym; be more socially competent; etc).

The whole thing can get pretty ridiculous sometimes. Sometimes I wonder what those "you're great just as you are!" people would say to a friend who likes wearing fanny-packs or other fashion disasters. Would they really say, "Oh, everybody likes something different. I'm sure there are people out there who'd get turned on because you wear a fanny-pack!" http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xVrzMXf1dSk/UCHN6AUVFtI/AAAAAAAAAGI/bqqvn6gtrGc/s640/Fanny+Pack.png

I also wonder sometimes to what extent this is a male versus female way of approaching things. The stereotype is that men want to fix problems while women want to just have someone listen (i.e. management of their own emotions) [ Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg ]. Those same behavior patterns might be manifesting themselves in the whole "your great just as you are" realm. In other words: guys want real advice about changing who they are/how they behave so that they can get what they want (girlfriend, hookups, etc). If women are more concerned with managing emotions (giving other people good emotions) than with actual self-development, you end up with a lot of problems where if guys are looking to women for fix-it advice, and the women give them "feel good" advice, then the guys end up with no real self-improvement knowledge. They just end up with "emotional management" type advice, thus never really pushing themselves to become the best possible version of themselves. They just end up clueless and frustrated with a handful of "wishful-thinking" beliefs.

exit_sandman · 2014-11-17T19:19:35+00:00

I agree that there are certain traits that most women/men find attractive in men/women.

I have theory as to why people deny it. First, I'd like to point out that in general, it's women denying that there's no such thing as a man who is "attractive to a majority of women" (your words). Generally, it's pretty well known that men prefer specific traits in women (small waists, larger breasts, low body fat, youth, watev).

It's done to enforce a BP mentality. We know that eggs are precious and sperm is cheap, that a few men are capable of fertilizing many women whereas women are the limiting factor in reproduction. That said, women will reproduce with the highest quality man that they can and that higher quality man (let's say he's good looking) can have offspring with many women.

In this scenario, there would be a lot of less than handsome men losing out on reproduction. But the hope that they could find a mate would still be there. Let's say society says "be a good person and make a lot of money and then you'll find a partner". If the man believes that looks aren't as important, he can still be useful to society as a provider. On the other hand, if he finds out that looks are important he will spend time trying to max out his looks (instead of being useful to society) or he will give up on finding a partner (even less useful).

So it's really about society being afraid of losing their providers. If they stop holding the line at "women in general find these physical traits attractive in men", the rest of the dominoes start tipping over.

edit: check out /r/ladyboners. As if there isn't a general trend. Most of the faces fit very well into a Marquardt mask. Why is it such an objective standard of beauty? Because it signifies high level of testosterone during development. There are other ways to increase SMV, but looks are definitely a part.

powerkick · 2014-11-17T19:22:50+00:00

You're right. Kind of. You CAN say that the most of X will like Y. You can totally say that and there is truth to that. The thing is that acknowledging that eventually begets "Most of X likes Y, so in order to attract X, I MUST be Y" and then it becomes a REQUIREMENT rather than just a statistic that points out a trend in dynamic and constantly changing desires.

Go take a look at /r/short for a microchosm of that phenomenon. They feel that ONLY tall men can get women, or get stuck on the fact that short men MIGHT (but also might not) have a bit more issue with getting casual sex. That mentality also spills over to /r/foreveralone, I've noticed.

That statistic becomes a generalization which then emilinates the room for dynamic change and variation between people, and that's how we become shallow.

Sansa_Culotte_ · 2014-11-17T23:14:41+00:00

What's with this obsession with a guys' height, anyway?

Why should I care how tall a guy is when he invites me to a luxurous restaurant or makes me see heaven with his tongue?

quiet-observer · 2014-11-18T02:09:03+00:00

I don't think most people put a lot of thought into what they find attractive, or really observe other people all that much.

There's obviously things that individuals will vary on, but for some reason talking about sex and preferences is very offensive.

moderately_neato · 2014-11-18T04:18:32+00:00

Because you're pointing out the obvious, something everyone knows, it doesn't need to be said. It's like saying "The sky is blue". WE KNOW.

It's also unnecessarily discouraging to the people who aren't fit/tall/young/blue-eyed/whatever. I mean, we're bombarded with media 24/7 of ideal specimens that most of us don't live up to. We don't really need yet another reminder of it. And there's no reason to unnecessarily discourage people... because if you look hard enough you will probably eventually find someone to date. There's no reason to discourage people more than life already does, you know? You don't have to deny it per se... but you also don't need to harp on it. Take it as a given and move on.

roe_ · 2014-11-18T05:08:42+00:00

just-world fallacy

jacks1000 · 2014-11-17T23:27:02+00:00

Because men and women that don't have those traits feel bad.

Men who don't have the looks and confidence of an "alpha?" They become "men's rights activists" and complain that women want tall, attractive men.

Women who don't have youth and beauty - either never did, or lost it? They become "feminists" complaining about "beauty standards" and "objectification" of women.

It ain't rocket science.

SquidwardsEuphoria · 2014-11-18T00:14:38+00:00

hmm, we recently went over interpersonal attraction in my social psych class. from what i recall regarding physical attraction, there were several factors that went into it:

people generally value facial symmetry, large eyes, and high cheekbones (these are traits that are valued in both sexes). however, a "baby faced" appearance was more valued in women
we actually tend to find "average" faces the most attractive (imagine a composite face made from photographs of many people).
we like people who are similar to us, not only personality-wise, but physically as well! there's actually one study (little & perrett, 2002) mentioned in my textbook that found that people rated faces similar to their own as the most attractive, lol

when it comes to body size, it tends to vary by culture: countries w/ high food insecurity (where food is not readily available) tend to rate larger women as the most attractive while the opposite is true for countries w/ low food insecurity (i remember this being in my textbook, if i can find it i can cite the study)

so i think it IS safe to say that there are general patterns when it comes to physical attraction. but tbh it is kind of normal to feel inadequate when presented with that type of information and you possess some trait that is not considered attractive, so i guess it is a topic people are uncomfortable addressing.

Aerobus · 2014-11-18T00:39:55+00:00

1) Why are you on askwomen? That is one of the worst subs to go to. They want politically correct, sugar-coated responses that agree with the hivemind. Anything else is not allowed and will be banned. The mods actively censor whatever the hell they feel like censoring.

2) You're comment is logical and makes sense. An opposite generalization could be applied to men. I think this is why it got downvoted so much--your comment used logic, which, as we know, women don't respond well to.

3)

Most men like women who are thin to average weight, with long hair. Most women like men who are tall and fit.

Yes but with the advent of feminism and the HAES (healthy at every size) bullshit going on, saying this in public violates political correctness and is therefore frowned upon. If I walk up to a fat person and call her fat, I would not be wrong. I'm making a correct observation about that female. But that observation hurts her precious feelings^TM and therefore, thanks to feminism, I'm branded an evil misogynist who can't handle a real woman^TM.

Women do like men that are tall and fit, but they will never admit this. Women have too much pride and so ardently believe in the (false) special snowflake mentality that they will never, for a second, admit that they can be generalized. Men on the other hand have no problem when someone says "Men want thin women!" Yes, we want thin women, they make our dicks hard, fat women don't.

4)

So, why is this something that angers people so much? Nobody could tell me, on that thread, why I was wrong.

See my explanation for #3 regarding political correctness. In addition to that bit, you aren't wrong, which is why they can't explain why you are wrong. You aren't. You just upset them because you (gasp) suggested that not all women are special snowflakes, which is threatening the askwomen hivemind.

5)

All people did was downvote.

That's kind of all they can do. They are strong independent women, after all, and they show just how strong, mature, independent they are by pressing a button on the internet, knowing that it will liberate women across the world.

6)

And while I know personality is important, that doesn't negate the fact that most men prefer a woman who is in shape to a woman who is 100 lb overweight, and most women prefer a man who is tall and fit to a man who isn't. It's not really fair, but denying it won't make it not true.

And now you've touched upon the heart of the issue. These people, these crazies who believe in HAES bullshit, or that women prefer scrawny skinny guys over tall fit ones, are so crazy that they actually want to deny reality. Moreover, they want to actively censor people who express this reality. Stop using logic on AW, and stop saying "it's the truth." You will never win on that sub, and if you keep it up, you will be banned I guarantee it.

7)

Why is this even debated? Isn't it common knowledge that some people are considered more physically attractive by a larger amount of folks than others?

Yes, but it's the big elephant in the room no one wants to admit. Feminists won't admit it because they want people to believe their false notion of reality. Anti-feminists won't admit it because it is not politically correct to do so.

TL;DR Don't argue with women; you don't win. AW is a terrible sub.

sticktothehardstuff · 2014-11-17T22:21:51+00:00

People are let down by these generalizations and over time begin to loose trust in them. We rely on generalizations as quick, easy barometers to help distinguish between what is good, what is bad, what we like, don't like, etc. If these generalizations are effective, we like them and continue to use them. If they are un- or less affective, we will loose faith, question them and eventually might become angered by them.

Sexuality and compatibility is much more nuanced then what we all can agree on, is generally most attractive. I do recognize you're talking about purely physical traits, and addressing why people are angered by this. But, unless you live in vacuum where everyone has the same facial structure, education, culture, etc. than these most attractive qualifications may be unreliable or deceive us in to making less than optimal partner choices and other decisions.

RedPill4LYF · 2014-11-17T20:19:17+00:00

This comment quoted below by /u/ocm09876 answering your question about bad questions to ask /r/AskWomen is almost entirely misandrist. She needs to get out of that sub and take part in /r/AskLesbians instead of being hateful toward men. Straight men asking questions to women there aren't looking for the opinions of lesbians quite obviously. It's not about excluding lesbians, it's just that these questions obviously are not intended for lesbians to worry about considering, which any rational human being would be able to ascertain.

Some that are on the front page right now that I downvoted:

"Have you ever met a Fedora guy in real life?"

Reasons it's bad: We get asked it every day. I hate giving MRA's ANY attention at all.

Well fuck you, too lol. Don't answer their questions.

They don't need any more excuses to think they're the center of the world.

Rofl, is she shitting us? MRAs definitely don't think they're the center of the world. That's why they're fighting for basic human rights that women like her actively want to deny them because of her bigoted views.

The only reason they're even here still is because of clickbaiting and troll feeding. I wish we could all just collectively decide to ignore them, all they seem to want is attention and they won't go away like they need to because we keep giving it to them.

They're asking women questions that would apply to themselves, and they're doing it in the appropriate place. Why exactly is she in there shitting on these men again? It's almost as if she's SRS. (She probably is.)

I also am just so tired of that tiny screaming ball of idiot being scapegoated as the "face" of the misogyny women experience, when actually the things MRA's say are extremely run-of-the-mill, great grandpa sexism and most of the men who are making our lives miserable have never even heard of an MRA, nor are they seen as anywhere near as weird or as much of an anomaly. Sexism is not perpetuated by screaming fanatics, it's perpetuated by everyday people and the sooner we get men to stop finger pointing the men THEY think are the "bad guys" every time gender comes up, the sooner we can make these problems better.

Because all men are the problem, right? You're a lesbian, so therefore all men are misogynists and shouldn't have rights or ask questions. Got it.

I downvoted the wedding question.

Reasons: Marriage is not for all girls or exclusively a girl thing and I found the question stereotypical, annoying and irrelevant to my life. all sorts of gendered assumptions. I doubt there's a "My good sirs describe your dream wedding!" question on the front page of askmen. We get wedding questions disproportionately often.

Maybe don't downvote questions you have no personal interest in that don't affect you in any way whatsoever? It really says something that she recognizes women don't bother to ask men what they want out of a wedding. She almost had a real thought there.

Questions related in any way shape or form to leg shaving get downvoted. Shaving tips, how often do you do it, what's your opinion on it, downvote downvote downvote. Boy is that a conversation I've had it up to my hairy ears with.

Just because you've had the conversation a lot doesn't mean there aren't younger people who still wanna have conversations about it, too. Look at how flippantly she stretches to find something wrong with nothing at all. She could just be not a cunt and not downvote the question and just, I dunno, ignore it?

Dating questions get downvoted almost always. I'd probably be more lax with a girl who was asking dating questions but we hardly ever get them. Just swarms and swarms and swarms of "If a guy had x mostly innocuous characteristic would you still fuck him? Asking for a friend ..."

If a man asks a dating question, fuck him. If a woman asks a dating question, baby let me lick your clit.

"How EXACTLY can I street harass -- er -- approach you in public when you're trying to get somewhere?! BE HONEST BE HONEST!" Downvote downvote downvote. We get this every 5 minutes.

Pure misandry. No wonder that sub is so useless with bitches like her sabotaging male participants out of spite.

Sometimes the "Have you ever dated a ...." or "Where would you go for a first date" or "What's the weirdest date you've been on" or "describe when your boyfriend proposed" or "describe your last break up" or "What's your anniversary tradition" etc. etc. questions feel really tired.

Don't bother with them then. Promote the ones you're actually interested in.

I'm gay and if a question is straight-centric in that way that most people roll their eyes at but ultimately brush off, I'm downvoting. Like if you explicitly say "husband" when you could've easily said SO, I'm downvoting and I don't care if you think I'm being unfair about it. My standards are high. You need to have a certain level of LGBTQ literacy for me to interact with you.

There's the smoking gun. "You better know how to address me by my proper pronouns muthafucka!" If her solipsistic ego isn't being stroked, she has a cow. No questions may be asked on /r/AskWomen by men about matters that relate to men under this bitch's watch, because misogyny. I wonder if she's aware that these behaviors she describes about herself actually indicate that she's the one who thinks she's the center of the universe, or if she's really just that oblivious to the toxicity of her personality.

Period questions.

"Has anyone ever a sexist to you?" If you are so oblivious to the world around you that you have to ask a woman this I already hate you. If you ask about sexism and then edit with a "wow that got dark/depressing really fast! What a surprise even though I asked you about some of the worst aspects of your lives! I had no idea women's lives weren't easy!" I might log into my throwaway just to give you an extra downvote.

It's fascinating that an innocent question posed by a man who is genuinely curious (because they know they themselves have never thought of themselves as sexist, and in fact really are not sexist in any way) how often a woman might encounter real world sexism (you know, the actual sexism that's really real, and not the hyper sensitive "everything is sexism cause patriarchy" sexism) is met with such instantaneous scorn.

Questions about feminism. Too personal, too much trolling, too many misconceptions, we get way too many, it's all horrible.

Yeah right, bitch. You know you're the problem. It's not men.

MissPearl · 2014-11-18T14:00:31+00:00

Don't look at me, every time I talk about what is effective as a woman I get slammed by RP guys telling me I'm wrong, they know better.

Then my irony meter breaks.

qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqa · 2014-11-17T20:08:25+00:00

I think it simply comes down to the fact that when people are looking for a long term relationship, they only need to find a single person that works with them. Once they've found that person, the majority opinion doesn't matter in the slightest. And when you're talking about men or women at large, even 1% of all of a gender is a massive amount of people.

The scales are so large here, that talking about the majority, if you're not interested in experiencing as much of that population as possible, is kind of useless.

[deleted] · 2014-11-18T12:43:32+00:00

I think because those certain traits tend to be the trashiest, most superficial ones like big muscles vs. big boobs.

Title	Why are so many people reluctant to say that there are certain traits most men/women find attractive?
Author	SquidwardsEuphoria
Upvotes	21
Comments	181
Date	November 17, 2014 6:56 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2ml1fe/why_are_so_many_people_reluctant_to_say_that/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-are-so-many-people-reluctant-to-say-that-there.284347 https://theredarchive.com/post/284347

Comments